14: Alex Zhang - Curating Cultural Playgrounds

[00:00] Welcome to Dialectic, Episode 14 with Alex Zhang. [00:05] Before we get into the conversation with Alex, I'm thrilled to share that this episode is brought to you by Hampton. [00:11] Hampton is a highly vetted private membership for founders and entrepreneurs. [00:16] Company building is ultimately about people. [00:19] Obviously, the center of that is your core team, your collaborators, your co-founders. [00:23] But there's another element of entrepreneurship. [00:26] It actually can be quite lonely, which is the unique experience that you go through as a founder or CEO of a company.

[00:32] Finding peers who can actually understand what you're going through can be really hard. One of the things I've benefited most from in my career is having a variety of mentors, advisors, trusted friends, people who have less context in the day-to-day. [00:46] but give you a different granularity of perspective because they're not staring at the problem super close up all the time. [00:52] So what is Hampton? [00:53] It was co-founded by Sam Parr of My First Million and The Hustle. They have over a thousand members. As I mentioned, it's highly vetted, and they look for founders with either $3 million in revenue or $3 million raised or who have sold their company for at least $10 million.

[01:09] And the goal is to create a place both digitally and physically where you can find like-minded people who actually understand the day-to-day of what you're going through and who you can zoom in and zoom it out with. [01:20] There's a few core parts of this. [01:22] First, you'll be put in a group of eight with seven other founders like you who you'll meet with monthly. [01:29] If you're in New York or Austin, that will be in person. And they also have wait lists for Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Denver, and Miami.

And the way they think of that is really the center of things. You're sort of personal board of advisors and the group you're going to get to spend the most time compounding with and building trust with. [01:46] I think this is the meat of the membership and really what stands out to me. But Hampton's also a digital community built on Slack where all of the members are frequently answering each other's questions, recommending service providers, talking through various challenges and so on. [02:01] Hampton also runs a number of in-person events across various cities, as well as a handful of retreats throughout the year for founders to get together in person.

[02:08] They also have speaker series, tactical workshops, and other ways for you to get expert advice on various parts of company building. I mean it when I say it. I genuinely don't think anything has been more valuable in my career than the wisdom, advice, accountability, and feedback I've gotten from what you might call a personal board of directors. And I've had to assemble that really manually. Hampton effectively gives you a one-stop shop to be able to find that. [02:35] So if you're a founder or entrepreneur that fits that criteria I mentioned, [02:39] I'd highly recommend you check out Hampton.

I've included a link to their member application in the description. [02:45] And if you do apply, make sure to tell them that I sent you. [02:49] Now, on to Alex Zhang. [02:51] Alex Zhang is the chief creative officer of Powder Mountain, where he's working with Reed Hastings to create a truly unique skiing experience in Utah. I've known Alex for a decade. [03:04] And it's been fun to watch him find new ways to combine culture, community, and unexpected overlaps, like music and technology, crypto and culture, and now skiing and art. Before Powder, Alex was the CEO of...

[03:20] or mayor of Friends with Benefits. [03:22] FWB originated as a tokenized Discord chat, but became much more under Alex's leadership, including what is surely the most unique event thrown by a crypto organization, FWB Fest. A strange cross between a music festival, crypto conference, and much more in Idlewild, California, and with past musical guests, including James Blake, Charlie XCX, and Caroline Polachek. [03:46] Alex is ultimately obsessed with bringing people together in all kinds of ways, and this is a conversation about how he has continued to curate, taste-make, and build community for as long as I've known him.

[03:58] Alex is definitely somebody who's been in my personal brain trust over the years, and so I was so thrilled to sit down with him and talk about what makes him special. [04:07] Here's Alex. [04:09] Alex Zane. [04:10] It's nice to be with you. [04:11] Phil, happy to be with you. [04:13] Nice to be back in A. too. [04:15] There's a bunch of through lines through your career that I think we're going to chat about today. But one of them that's sort of like a meta narrative or at least a meta consideration, I think, is that you're blending commerce and culture.

[04:27] And I'm curious, [04:29] Like one intrinsic response might be that like commerce and culture just don't actually want to coexist or they're kind of like constantly in tension. [04:36] Are they fundamentally at odds? [04:38] in some kind of foundational way, or are there actually really graceful, elegant ways to navigate it and you can kind of have the best of both worlds? [04:46] Oh. [04:48] Wow, okay, starting off with the meta questions. Yeah, I mean, firstly, it's fun to just sit down and have a conversation with you. You're someone I really respect and adore, so to just chop it up for a few hours is really, really –

[05:04] Delightful. Let's see. Commerce and culture. I don't I mean, I definitely don't have the answer to that, but I think my. [05:10] My perspective, and something I've actually been thinking about a lot lately, is kind of how... [05:14] Obviously, to an extent, capital and capitalism is a very effective and efficient mechanism, and I think it is sort of the foundational layer to how a lot of things work. [05:28] are given sort of fuel to actually propagate or be created or have attempts at sort of being created. And I think it sort of exists in sort of every sector of our lives.

And, you know, maybe I'm over mega capitalist, but I think it's sort of... [05:41] You know, I think markets are sort of everywhere. And I think to an extent, art or culture, you know, sort of the underlying financial mechanics that allow for something like that to originate, [05:52] are pervasive and sort of exist. And so it's more so this kind of yin and yang where both are sort of like [05:59] almost like interconnected without wanting to be. And, and to an extent, [06:04] I don't know if it totally works, but I think it exists.

But I've been thinking a lot lately about how the patron model has actually been sort of [06:12] seemingly where most culture is meaningfully created. And I say that as in like, [06:16] As someone who's experimented a lot and tried to find like purely equilibrium culture commerce models, I don't know if I've. [06:23] 100%. [06:24] found that, but the models that do seem to work is this notion of [06:29] Capital on one side of the aisle, culture on the other side of the aisle, [06:33] but capital funding... [06:36] and financing the culture in sort of a creative, [06:40] one plus one equals three abundant mindset capacity that allows for [06:45] true culture to actually flourish.

A Renaissance model would be, you know, Medici's and, you know, the Michelangelo and Da Vinci and the original sort of patron model where, you know, you sort of allow for these wealthy, you know, the wealthy capitalists of society to sort of finance culture for the, for the, for culture's sake. And you sort of get the Sistine Chapel, right? So it's like, I've been thinking a lot about how today's day and age are things that actually exist, [07:10] trigger my excitement the most culturally often don't have a very... [07:16] obvious capital financial model, but usually have a circuitous [07:21] sort of indirect...

[07:23] I don't want to be as reductive to say purely patron model, but... [07:27] The money is coming from somewhere else, and there is some sort of net benefit to the whole, but it isn't like a D to C model of like I make culture and you purchase it for X dollars and everybody's happy. So I definitely – all that to say I don't have the answer, but I do think that – [07:44] The patron model is something that I've been kind of observing, and I think that sort of finding that harmonious balance is sort of where the most interesting culture is created.

[07:55] We'll talk more about [07:56] powder and some of the work you've done [07:59] in a bit, [07:59] Are there other examples of patronage either right now or recently that you've admired or have even kind of just seen as like effective? [08:09] People talk about the Medici's a lot. Yeah. Of like, how do we get that again? Right. One of my senses is actually there is a lot of that happening. Granted, maybe it's not like the clearest shot through line. [08:19] Or it's, as you say, like a little bit, [08:22] of a dotted line.

It's not a totally obvious connection, but are there people, even just people you think are, [08:28] I mean... [08:30] Yeah, you know, I love there's so many examples and I love everything from. [08:35] The memes where they're like, did you know that this indie girl artist's dad is a VP at Goldman Sachs? Or it's like that to me is the most obvious where it's like there's nothing wrong with Nepo babies or nepotism. No. [08:46] It's actually what creates the space for that. Give us Claro. That's what I mean. How else could Claro, you know, sit there and bang the MIDI keyboard and figure out tunes and create something for culture, right?

If she had to go work at a coffee shop to pay for her, you know, rent, she wouldn't be creating culture. Yeah, that's the ideal. [09:05] is that actually we get to the point where just sort of like... [09:08] Like patronage is abundant and... [09:10] Like, put it another way, I guess what I'm the backdrop against that would be the alternative artists who sort of like really has to struggle for a very long time gets to spend less time in their art. But like, there's some forcing function that makes... [09:23] Maybe another example of this that ties into the original question might be, [09:28] in art that you are helping sort of either explicitly commission or even just bring to the world.

There's two views. There's sort of like... [09:35] Give the artist maximum flexibility, maximum budget, no constraints. [09:41] And then the other would be like, actually, like constraints are kind of good. [09:44] Granted, you don't want to be so paternalistic. I think about this, whether it be for commissioning art or for your kids. It's like how much... [09:51] Constraints are really good for creativity. [09:53] I'm a huge fan of constraints personally. I think constraints force and breed creativity. And frankly, having maximum optionality is quite stalling. But I think it's a balance, right?

I think some of the most... [10:08] impressive, [10:09] let's call it cultural creations or productions throughout history often start [10:17] from a seed of infinite opportunity, but then through life and logistics. You know, you hear about a lot of projects that were like, [10:23] You know, I mean, let's let's you know, you brought up the brutalist earlier. I love it because it's like that is to me, I thought that film really captured a lot of creation in life, a lot of architecture, a lot of development, construction. [10:35] where it's like you start with something super pure, but life...

[10:40] has its way of introducing reality into things. Something happens, you can't control, finances tighten, you know. - It changes his mind. - Exactly. [10:51] The art in and of itself is how do you adjust and move and ebb and flow through that and you ultimately land – [10:58] with the final creation that... [11:00] may not be what you originally intended, but it doesn't matter because that was always just sort of an idea and the world will only see that sort of final output. So, [11:07] To your earlier question about [11:09] culture and commerce and maybe examples of that and how if, let's call it the most prevailing model is the

[11:16] page finish model, which [11:18] I think there could be a harmonious society where – [11:23] you just have this sort of redirected capitalist overflow into, into opportunities for people to create things. Like I'm not like a total, uh, [11:32] UBI head of like, I think that would work, but I'm more in the like, I do think, I'm [11:37] just forcing everyone to subscribe to like the explicit mass capital models don't won't create great art or great culture or urgent art or whatever. Correct. And it's more so like [11:48] if you believe in randomness and that randomness will allow for things to, [11:52] outside of the box to be created, net new things, I think you kind of need that long leash that the patronage model sort of [11:58] allows for.

And that's just the sort of belief of an idea, the belief in the person, the trust, you're the artist and you're coming back saying, hey, I'm way over budget, but can you trust me on this? I want to create this thing. [12:09] That's where I think the things that culture for culture's sake actually, you know, [12:14] where they actually originate from. [12:16] I like that. [12:17] Another major through line for you, if not... [12:20] at least career-wise, the central one to me, is that you're obsessed with bringing together [12:26] People...

[12:26] and art and like spaces or like a really like I would say curating those three things. [12:32] And you've done that across so many different permutations, whether it's we're in college, it's lava lab and house parties and radio and stuff like that or concert series. Obviously, all the summit stuff, both kind of. [12:44] pre-COVID and then in COVID festivals like Fest now, [12:48] with all the powder stuff at a mountain scale. [12:51] It's sort of, to me, a little bit of like... [12:54] How do people come together? How do they work together?

How do they enjoy something together even? [12:58] And really just like, how do you have presence in space? [13:02] I'm curious. [13:03] Why do you love bringing people together? What is it about that experience? [13:08] that [13:08] If I were to try to infer one thing, there's a sense of... [13:12] There's very much a host energy of like, let me curate something for you. Trust me. [13:18] I think that's something I really admire in you, and clearly you've done it in so many permutations in your career. [13:23] Post-energy, that's good.

No, I appreciate all that. And I just turned 32 days ago, so I was just reflecting on this actually about – [13:33] sort of the major themes in my life and how they intersect. And yeah, I've always loved that jobs quote about, you know, you can't connect the dots looking forward only backwards. [13:41] And like, you know, if you were to ask me, [13:43] 10 years ago, oh, would you be building a ski town? I would be like, I don't even know how to ski, and I've never skied before, so no.

It is a crazy, one of those hindsight-type situations. [13:55] Yeah, you nailed it. I would truly just say my greatest joy in life is bringing people together and hosting people. I think why and where that comes from is the fact that I grew up as a sort of a first-gen Chinese immigrant in a white suburban town of Claremont, California, where I didn't feel very... [14:15] connected or seen, uh, [14:18] or integrate into my community. And I felt a little bit, I always felt a little bit other, different. And, you know, with my parents, there's a bit of a cultural barrier.

And I felt like my house felt very... [14:30] It felt very cold there, and I didn't quite know why. But, you know, the metaphorical fireplace wasn't on. We didn't really do dinner at home. They worked really late. You know, they really... [14:41] worked so hard to provide for me and my sister. But, you know, because of that, I was never really home. And I quickly learned that I could actually simulate [14:51] those feelings of community by bringing people together and whether that was [14:57] throwing a party when my parents weren't home and inviting 30, 40 friends over and it becoming a really fun house party to doing more elaborate sort of events.

[15:07] concerts, backyard shows, I quickly began to be in this sort of eternal search of [15:12] of a party, I guess. Maybe, yeah, the party you wish you could have gone to. Yeah, or just, yeah, or even parties a little one note of, like, oh, like, rah, rah. Just more that search of, like... [15:24] of community or a family and of belonging, I think. And that shows up and is manifest in a lot of different ways, but, [15:32] It was sort of through that that I realized, oh, I can actually create the conditions that [15:37] allow for that feeling.

So to me, like if we go back to like the most classic party sense, to me, like why I love parties and specifically why I love I love like party photography and party culture and, you know, whatever. [15:48] Studio 54 and like all these eras of like. Right. And why? Because you look at it and you're like, cool, this is a moment in time that will never happen again. Like this collection of this assortment of people in a room mixed with music, drugs, culture, fashion. Like, what are people wearing? What are people thinking?

What's the cultural political zeitgeist in that moment? [16:07] those conditions led to whatever energy you sort of fell [16:10] in that room. And so I've always been on the other side. [16:14] in that i've enjoyed participating in that obviously but i've enjoyed creating and facilitating those environments and thinking about all the factors that go into it on a on a small scale of an event or venue from the lighting and the food and the the layout to the large scale of of now powder mountain of roads and and power and sewage and water and tunnels and and neighborhood lot layouts and all these sorts of things so um yeah the connecting piece is really community a sense of [16:41] And, you know, I'll lastly add that...

[16:45] My best friends growing up in high school, they all lived on this cul-de-sac, and I was sort of in the town over. And every day after school, I would go visit. Every day after school, I'd go to this cul-de-sac. On Thursday, I'd sleep in this cul-de-sac from Thursday all the way to Sunday. And about seven of the houses on the cul-de-sac, it was called Nicholas Street, were all owned by this group of friends and their families. It was essentially a thing where when one family moved in and the house next door went for sale, they sold it to their friends.

[17:15] The next street went on sale a couple years later. They sold it to their other friends. And so me, Ben, Eric, Nate, [17:21] And Jimmy, we all lived, they all lived on this, I say we because I was literally there so much. They all lived on this block. They all grew up together on this block. And so at its summation, it was like 40 kids who grew up on this cul-de-sac. Yeah, the village. The village. And I would just like revel in it. And I would go every weekend and the doors were never locked.

You could raid anyone's fridge for whatever you wanted. It was this, to me, it was the ultimate sense of freedom and bliss and belonging and joy. [17:50] My macro reflection is that, and kind of my joke, [17:54] is now whatever that is, 15 years later, [17:57] All I'm doing is professionally recreating that environment, whether it's, you know, on a mountain or with friends of benefits. Right. Summit. To me, it's this how do you suspend reality and introduce new behavioral community kind of. [18:11] norms and to really promote this greater sense of [18:15] of community.

[18:17] I mean, it rhymes with the notion that you ask most people what the best part of their life was and they tell you college. [18:23] And I think the reason is actually very similar, which is that you had this little period of your life where you were surrounded in high proximity with people you cared about. You had a high degree of comfort. [18:32] And I think like, [18:34] It seemed, I mean, people in San Francisco have reinvented the version of the thing you just described pretty recently as like, oh, this is the future of how we should all live.

And it's like, well, maybe this is actually a more primal kind of thing. [18:46] thing that we all know we want or should have. It's interesting. My suspicion says that if you blip forward... [18:53] 20 or 50 years to how people live. [18:57] There's some... [18:59] Trending directional thing that ends up. I think more people probably want something sort of like this. Yeah, and you know, it's a [19:06] It's a cold take, but the whole, like, increased tech reliance and decrease, you know, increase in isolation, increase in loneliness, all that sort of stuff, all those trend lines will eventually converge to, like, [19:18] how can you live in more communal environments because of our, you know,

[19:23] probably at that point, instinctual reaction or aversion from being kind of constantly wired and internally online. [19:30] and needing to seek actually meaningful human connections and community and sanctity. Yeah, that in suburbs. Suburbs haven't helped too much. Although I guess you, presumably you had it sort of in the suburbs. Yeah. [19:44] You can take this however you want, and we don't need to go through all the levels of granularity, but I'd be curious for you to riff a little bit on... [19:50] what makes a great event or space at, like, different orders of magnitude, like...

[19:55] dinner, house party, dinner. [19:57] concert, festival, and then maybe at the biggest scale now that you're thinking about in a much more long-term, durable sense of like a... [20:03] a mountain town or a mountain resort. [20:05] Are there... [20:06] things that stand out at any of those stages or just broad themes, maybe some of which you just spoke a little bit about. [20:12] that you think contribute to that feeling of when you're at a great party or at a great event, you feel grounded or welcome or alive. [20:21] Yes, I've got my own philosophy and theory, but I'll sort of start by saying one of my favorite writings on this is David Byrne's How Music Works.

Chapter, I think it's chapter eight, where he talks about how to start a scene. [20:35] And I send this to anyone who asks me a similar question because he essentially like didactically writes down. [20:42] all the conditions and variables, [20:44] that go into creating and starting a cultural scene, specifically through the lens when he was a consultant for CBGBs and various different music venues in New York in the 70s. And he talks about... [20:56] He talks about proximity from the stage to the bar and how if it's too far, you're going to get everyone in the bar or not at the stage.

If it's too close, the musician's not going to enjoy playing in front of a bunch of people waiting in line for a drink. My favorite thing is he kind of created the system. [21:12] at CBGB's where if you were a band and you play at the venue, you would be given a drink ticket that was only valid for the remainder of that week. So it actually encouraged you to come back the next night while you were still in town because you got a free drink to then watch and support the next night's act, even if you didn't know – [21:30] you know, who they were.

And it was through that where [21:34] Patti Smith began hanging out with the Velvet Underground and Lou Reed and you sort of started to get this, you know, kind of cross pollination of culture at a time when everything was sort of like bubbling up. [21:45] Lot of really great little factors in that. But yeah, my answer, my list of set of variables for that is, [21:52] and it's maybe difficult to sort of scale up into all of those examples because they're all sort of uniquely different. But [21:58] You know, I think it starts with just [22:01] intentionality, like why?

Why are we gathering? Why are we here? You know, and I think a strong why [22:08] actually sets a really, really nice context for people showing up with a certain perspective. [22:15] You know, I think [22:16] birthdays are like a really interesting why, just coming off of having a small little birthday gathering, because you're one degree... [22:24] Everyone has a common purpose. Yeah. Yeah. So like if you're at the bar and you don't know what you're chanting, that's someone you don't know about or someone you don't know. You can easily just be like, oh, how do you know Jackson?

You know what I mean? It's a kind of off. And if they go, who's Jackson? It's like, you know what I mean? So I think it's like I think having a really strong why. In context where the why is not so obvious, g. it's not a birthday or even like it's not a certain type of an event for a certain purpose or even a professional thing. [22:51] easier. What about like a music festival? [22:54] Like, is there is there something more implicit or subconscious there? [22:58] or even maybe an explicit example close to home for you, like something like FWD Fest, [23:04] You have themes, but like...

[23:06] Is that something that you're... Because inside of so much of this question, the way you started to answer it is... [23:12] Great events, more than almost anything else, are this really strange dichotomy of like, [23:17] Thank you. [23:18] Pretty scientific. [23:19] on the planners end. Correct. And totally like, [23:23] You don't think about it at all if you're... Ideally, at least. The gas is just enjoying their care. So how does that purpose... [23:31] or like almost like mission statement or intention come through when it's not so obvious or you don't even want it to be so obvious.

So I think whether you know it or not, there's going to be a meaning there, right? It's sort of whatever Joseph Campbell and man and his symbols and meanings like there will you will always overlay and project meanings on subconsciously or consciously as to why you're there. Let's take all three of those examples you just mentioned. Let's start with the music festival like. [23:54] Whether you know it or not, whoever curated that music lineup and why you're there is telling you a story. Like, they selected... [24:01] That arrangement of musical acts, whether it was FYF sort of representing like peak indie music, indie sleaze, like Golden Voice wasn't as much of a behemoth as it was today.

And it was sort of this counter position where when you were there, it felt like you were part of the indie music scene where A. really felt like the core of that. It was sort of this this polarization from like New York's more sort of rarefied scene to, you know, nowadays you're seeing way more. [24:27] actually explicitly themed music festivals, like whatever that like, almost like Heaven, where it's a throwback to all 2000s music. So it's like those are all... [24:36] the promoter's goal of creating meaning [24:39] into that event so that when you're there, there's sort of a binding agent or a subculture that sort of gets created.

And then FWB Fest, you know, yeah, sure, the themes of the programming and the music are probably quite esoteric or perhaps irrelevant. But it's the meaning is actually in the gathering in itself of that. It's a very, very niche overlap of people who are interested in crypto and culture is for, you know, whatever. It's like 10,000 people, 5,000 people. [25:09] so special is that when you're there and you know two and a half hours outside of los angeles you've committed to be there and [25:17] Everyone there, it feels like this sort of utopian, idyllic Garden of Eden to an extent where it's like, how am I like with every single person I've ever been in a chat room with in the woods?

It's a very like that in itself. Totally. I would say is the S was the essence and the beauty of what made that event so special. Including the friction, by the way. A hundred percent. I'm actually a believer to the variables. I think friction is important. [25:47] list. [25:48] of getting into a really good party, but I'm even more for the bouncer of that party deciding on the spot. [25:54] If someone's not on the list, but they've just got a good vibe, let them in. Like what made Studio 54 brilliant was it was a list.

[26:01] But if you were just like a young artist or a young creative and you were there and you weren't being an asshole or you weren't you weren't being ostentatiously, you know, you know, whatever, annoying, the bouncer had the full discretion. [26:14] just like whatever at Bergheim to decide, yeah, come on in, because you're going to actually add a whole new variable to this party. Because when you're in that room, everyone can tell you're stoked to be there. And you're beaming, your face, your smile is, you know, cheek to cheek versus we've all been at like, [26:29] industry parties.

Everybody's looking around. And it's like, cool. We know everyone who's here. We were all together. And I was in Milan last week for the design week. And there's the, this, you know, the, the, whatever the New York times team magazine party. And you're, it's like the party, everyone goes in your, then you're kind of like, [26:45] This is literally everyone I was just with in New York and no one really wants to be here. And it was like the hard thing to, you know, and I was like, oh, man. Right.

Versus I had way more fun going to the random dive bar after where it was a mix of people from that party, locals, friends of friends, and it felt way more sort of democratic. [27:00] Yeah, that studio doc is amazing, if people haven't seen it. You got it a little bit. One other major theme, I think, is like these intersections. You mentioned FWB, crypto, and culture. But you've kind of done a bunch of unlikely intersections. Music and tech, for sure, in college and probably after college. A lot of some of that bleeding into Summit.

Obviously, now skiing and art. You're kind of like right at the fringes of these overlapping spaces. [27:28] And obviously you're just like, I think very broadly attuned to subcultures in general, [27:34] Why do you think these intersections either are attractive to you or at the very least, why are they good areas to like focus on or spend time in? [27:43] Yeah, I mean, I think if there's this sort of, whatever, the adage of like, you know, riches in the niches and thousand true fans kind of. [27:51] you know, frameworks. [27:53] to me, when you...

[27:55] expertly [27:56] or thoughtfully overlap two Venn diagrams that, or two cultures that, uh, [28:03] wouldn't have seemingly have overlapped before. I think that's where you create, like, super fan. Because I think it's about... [28:10] at the end of the day, like building a brand or [28:13] or creating an experience is just about [28:17] delivering a really strong punch of authenticity and about feeling, uh, [28:21] sort of scene, right? When we all see a brand do something on social or whatever, like a really great ad campaign. It's this sort of reminder that [28:33] Life has this randomness to it that keeps it interesting.

I think it's why are we so fascinated when two celebrities date each other and Timothee Chalamet and Kylie Jenner. It's because it's random. And it's like, how did this even happen? [28:45] But when you see, like, both of them and you see them together, it becomes like, oh, the universe, there is this randomness and chaos to the universe. So to me, I think when there's a strategic overlap, and it can't be, like, crazy, right? It's not like we're doing, like, you know, yeah, whatever, like, skiing and Bauhaus architecture. It's like that exists, but it's like –

[29:04] It has to be thoughtful and there has to be like a true [29:07] Bottoms up. [29:08] let's call it like market analysis of how big are each of these respected total addressable markets? Like, does this actually make sense? [29:15] But when you can't identify the right overlap, I think it creates this really, really strong halo effect that – [29:21] to me when I build marketing brands or marketing, like when I think about marketing, I think about like, [29:26] How do you have an unfair advantage and how do you think about something that only you can sort of own?

Well, that's what I was going to say is, sure, there's like market analysis, but like at least the things you've done have overwhelmingly come out of stuff you really like. And the fact that you actually have pretty disparate interests, skiing and design world like don't typically come together, not because there's some brilliant strategy there, but because like it turns out that people who are really, really going to authentically care about those two things and spend a ton of time in them, it's just way less likely. [29:56] whatever. Go down the list.

Yeah, no, I, I, yeah, I mean, you, [30:00] there definitely is a truth to the fact that smooth brain me is just like, I like both. Let's mix them together. So it's like there is, you know, I could come at you full consultant to vibes of market analysis, but like, [30:11] And that was perhaps the financial justification, but the emotional justification was just... [30:18] I mean, I could walk you through the logic of art and skiing, which was just – [30:22] I love, I grew to really love the mountains. I learned to ski only 10 years ago.

I grew to love the scale and the landscape and the, there's, there's, there's nothing quite like skiing where it's just you and the mountain and, you know, your, your gear and your technical equipment. And it feels incredibly freeing and liberating and present. And then at the same time, I started to fall in love with [30:44] you know, sort of these outdoor artistic sculptural experiences like Storm King or Naoshima in Japan, sort of this destination, you know, I don't want to say like Instagramable, but it was sort of this like this, these like cultural pilgrimages started to really, really become, I think, highly legible.

[31:14] pan, right? So it was like those two trends and personal experiences started to sort of [31:19] occur separately just out of my own natural curiosity. On the skiing side, I became obsessed with equipment and gear and learning and I started getting every fancy new ski toy because it just became fun to like... [31:29] feel like I was leveling up physically and in a sport where there's like a heavy culture around it. Like and then simultaneously around art. [31:38] beginning to like these people who visit Marfa and you know, it's like a check box of like you do all these experiences.

And so organically when [31:47] we started thinking, you know, the kind of the smooth brain area, like, well, why hasn't these sort of artistic experiences taken place on a scene that went before? And then you start to go through the logistical jujitsu of, oh, well, like labor costs and staffing, and it really couldn't work, but then you actually start to realize, like, [32:05] on a ski on a mountain, maybe, yes, but on a ski mountain where you have 500, 600 seasonal employees who operate and maintain the land and the ski resort.

Could you train ski staff to maintain art? Like it started to literally cross sort of like that. And then, you know, obviously, when the conversation sort of naturally arose with Reid and we sort of shared this kind of kismetty moment around it. And he had the resources to meaningfully sort of enable it. It became sort of then. [32:33] honestly, back to the like pure idea, then to act and then to realizing an actual product. [32:39] Laden with flaws and challenges that you're sort of working through, but by then you're already committed.

And that to me is just like the process of sort of figuring it out. [32:47] What I love about those large kind of architectural scale art things is there's this, I think it's from John Collison, one of the Stripe guys. [32:55] He says the world is a museum of fashion projects. And I think those types of things... [33:01] And you could, if you wanted to stretch, you guys have talked about Desert Axe, obviously, like Burning Man. You mentioned Marfa, too. Like, even the Terrell Rodent Crater stuff. Like, talk about. [33:10] - Passion projects.

- Totally. - Truly just like one guy or a small group of people saying, like, I'm gonna do something that doesn't, and maybe it ties back to the other question too, which is in skiing, like, yeah, people love skiing, people have built some amazing mountain things, but you'd have to care a whole lot. [33:26] about art and doing something weird and fun to one, want to invest in something like that in Reed's case, but two, have the people with the time and ability and capability to try to like do something.

So there's not like a, in some sense, back to the earlier question, it's hard to imagine it fitting very cleanly on some like strategy deck. [33:45] Well, it doesn't because it's authentic and it's accidental and it's random. And that's the kind of. [33:51] purity that I think is what draws really strong ideas and, you know, [33:55] full circling it back to like all those examples you mentioned, Rodin Crater, like all of those were built on the patron model. Like there is no business model to Rodin Crater. James's business model for Rodin Crater is he sells art to like separately to finance as much as he can for Rodin, which is his magnum opus.

And I think Naoshima took 50 years of that family to, [34:18] working on it, going through multiple recessions, going through multiple bankruptcies and continuing to push forward. And any time they made money in category A, they would fill it over into category B to continue to sort of sustain it. So it's like it's clear, like there hasn't really been like an efficient capital culture model quite yet. And we've seen that capitalism gets its power. [34:38] nails sunk very deep quickly into anything cultural really fast and tends to kill it. Let's just say it starts really working.

But the music industry or whatever and like top hits and what ends up happening in that sort of instance. But to your point around, yeah, I guess that sort of. [34:53] that authenticity of an overlap to me it's you know when we put out the release [34:58] and we started to share with the world what we were doing with Powder Mountain and sort of the art program, the amount of notes, [35:05] and random emails I was getting from people being like, [35:08] This is... [35:09] the most, like, perfect, insane... [35:13] project I feel so seen.

[35:15] How can I get involved? [35:17] I grew up and then you start hearing all these stories. I grew up on the mountains. My dad was a ski patroller. I'm now in New York. I worked in a gallery for 20 years. You then realize, oh, wow, there's a lot more randomness than you had imagined and then also a lot more overlaps and relevance where if we can sort of deliver this experience, I think it'll be a really, really special one. [35:36] What has it been like to return to, for people who don't know, [35:40] You obviously spent a ton of time around Powder Mountain in one context, and you left it for a while.

[35:46] with Summit, and you come back to it in a... [35:50] Literally returning to the same place, but also coming at it from like a new set of people, a new context, a new orientation. How is that? Does it feel like coming back around on the merry-go-round? Does it feel like, I don't know, climbing the same mountain twice? Is it totally new? [36:03] The rare opportunity in your career. The joke I give is if if you've watched if any of you guys have watched Succession is that I feel like Tom Lomsgand or I'm just like the last guy standing.

And I just kind of like I joke a little more confident. Yeah. But I look around and I'm like, how am I still I'm how am I here? You know, but no, real talk. Yeah, it's interesting. I think it's like in a way it's almost like a toxic relationship where you're like, how am I coming back to? [36:33] Yeah, exactly. [36:34] And perhaps the mountain is like a siren call luring me to the craggy rocks. But, yeah, no, I think – [36:41] I think the mountains in general are such intoxicating places.

So I think any chance you get to sort of create something – I'm just – [36:50] I think any chance you get to create something permanent. [36:53] like really permanent to me is what's the most motivating thing that will allow, that will keep continuing my drive to, like, [37:00] to work on it. And often people ask, oh, is this like a, [37:03] couple of your thing. He wants to, what's your next project? I'm like, [37:06] I definitely will work on other things, but I feel like this project specifically will be a lifelong endeavor.

I don't know what the full capacity will be, but... [37:15] To an extent, like in shaping a town, it's like I've got – we're building the master plan right now. The master plan has 5, 10, 15, 20, 25-year timescales on it. So it's like I want to see that through. I don't know what the extent will be in year 20, but I definitely want to play a role in at least – [37:33] coming back and participating in sort of these architectural design charrettes and sort of watching it evolve. So it really is a thing that – [37:40] I think it's not too overly complicated of like, oh, I'm back.

At the end of the day, it's a place a lot of people deeply care about. I feel super lucky to be able to be one of the stewards of it. There will be other stewards that come after me. [37:52] but to be back in the mix and yes, to have all the conditions have changed in a more positive way in terms of financing and leadership. [38:01] All of that allows us to really move forward at a much more accelerated and also focused pace. [38:06] It's cool to think about, too, the tension between...

[38:10] what you started with and what I still think you're amazing at, which is creating one amazing experience for a night. You mentioned in the context of a party like this is never going to happen again. [38:19] And then maybe the full other swing you mentioned, like, yeah, [38:21] If you're lucky, you the work you guys are doing on powder is like part one of a [38:26] many decade journey. Like you're just laying the groundwork for, for what might be able to come in the future. What one, one specific question on that, that feel free to take kind of however you would want to, but there's a number of iconic, [38:40] let's just say ski places in the U S you have Jackson hole and park city and Yellowstone club is, is a sort of different type of example.

And some Valley, [38:49] Some of this is obviously in the private public and in the different elements of the actual mountain, but I'm curious if there is... [38:56] anything that feels most important to get right about powder, [38:59] relative to the field? How do you guys want to be the most... [39:03] What is most important to be different in? [39:06] Yeah, so I think the ARC will be obviously our fundamental differentiator in that no other ski destination in the world will have a, you know, [39:17] a site-specific art [39:19] sort of sculpture park or sort of art integration to this extent.

So I think that'll be a clear difference. The goal there is to basically do the Naoshima or Storm King Sea. Yeah, Storm King Sea. Naoshima Ice is my joke. Yeah, Storm King Sea. Yeah, exactly. [39:31] And then in the end. All over the whole mountain? Yeah, all throughout this 12,000 skiable acre. So the idea is you have a multi-season, multi-modal way of experiencing art that you ski to in the winter, you hike and you mountain bike to in the summer. [39:45] the work is spaced out and given room to breathe.

It's not like, you know, you see sculpture, sculpture, sculpture, sculpture in one view shed, but you, [39:53] you ski for [redacted address] and you see... [39:56] a 30-foot sculpture and that you just get moment you just get space time to breathe and to ingest it and to reflect on it and then you get you go back into the pure wilderness to then re-emerge back into sort of another artistic experience but secondly yeah i think what will be our biggest differentiators i mean really architecture architecture in the western hemisphere of ski resorts has been pretty one note um for the last 30 years i think the big opportunity is to really

[40:26] log cabin-y vibe, or it's faux Bavarian, you know, post-World War II, 10th Mountain Division, all these developers went to, like, Zermatt for their first time. So they, like, in a classic American way, like, just literally copied it. Zermatt is great, by the way. One for one. It's amazing, but, you know, so much so to literally just, it's a very American attitude. Well, we like this, we're just going to rebuild this one for one here in an amusement capacity. So that's [40:56] And it worked for so many years and it's charming.

You go to these American ski towns and it feels kind of Austrian or Bavarian. [41:02] You know, our great challenge is how do we [41:05] reinterpret it, [41:07] and create a set of architectural guidelines and designs that all the homeowners follow, all of our public buildings and amenities and commercial buildings follow, that unifies a place. [41:17] that sets a new sort of architectural language. So we're kind of calling it internally high Alpine architecture and trying to think about, okay, well, what does that mean in the context of the American West?

[41:27] How can we shed the sort of [41:29] big log cabin feeling that... [41:33] obviously has like historical relevance. How can we draw inspiration from, you know, high Alpine environments in the Alps, but not like one for one copy the ornamentation, but like, [41:43] sort of look at more of the like efficient building strategies, the notion that the roof is sort of this dominant feature. That's why when you see these amazing photos on the Internet of the Alps, you see sort of all these snowy towns covered in snow with the lights on.

It's all designed intentionally in that capacity. So we're taking and borrowing and remixing all of those things that we find really interesting into what we're calling high Alpine architecture, which will be essentially... [42:09] infrastructure and architecture that's defined by buildings that have really strong roof presences, big overhangs, big heaves, natural wood siding, stone bases that, you know, are sort of laid out in a very organic way that hopefully over time, if that pattern can sort of propagate, [42:26] will create something in the S. that is like super distinct. Yeah. Yeah.

[42:30] That's cool. What do you love about Utah and how has living in the mountains changed you? [42:35] Thank you. [42:37] Oh, wow. I love Utah so much. It's grown on me so deeply. [42:45] The most amount of time I'd spent there, I'd been visiting on and off since I was in my early, early 20s when I was working with Summit. And for folks who don't know, Summit, where I previously worked, used to own Powder Mountain. That was sort of the... [42:57] the context of that notion of kind of coming back.

But I've been visiting on and off. [43:03] week at a time, two weeks at a time, a couple of days at a time. But then it was really COVID when I actually just lived there for a year straight. Did you ever visit me during that? Yeah. So it was just like a year straight, maybe even a year and a half. And it was me living in a house with four [43:17] And it was honestly like I think of it as probably my most fond memories of my lifetime. You know, I think a couple of things I – [43:27] noticed and began to enjoy and learn one.

[43:30] That was the season, that was the year where I first learned to cook and I sort of fell in love with cooking. And, you know, obviously COVID, no restaurants. So I started to fall in love with the process of finding produce and going to farms and going to farmer's markets. And. [43:45] understanding the sort of essential quality of food and how if you combine all of those things together – [43:55] you know, salt, fat, acid, heat, that whole logic, that it can create something really, really amazing. So we played a game where every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, each person in the house took a different night.

[44:06] to cook and it became almost competitive. And I was Tuesday night. So like all of a sudden it was like, I was flying in fish from Alaska and doing sushi night. Someone else was doing like a 24 hour roast. It just became like a game of like, what else were we going to do, you know, during the pandemic? So I think food also just, just watching sort of the natural process of entropy and, and sort of season change. I think it was so amazing to watch, [44:30] winter melt into spring, all that snow melt, and every...

It felt like the whole mountain was, like, leaking. Every crevice was, like, gushing water and snow melt. And then all of a sudden, in, like, a month, you watch... [44:42] the flowers start to sort of the grasses. Most of us drop into mountain towns, by the way. Yeah, exactly. So I got to fall in love with like the trend. Everyone calls it mud season and you always avoid it and it's gross. But I actually was like, wow, this is so poetic and beautiful. And then when the summer came, you were just so filled with gratitude to be like this whole thing I'm looking at.

[45:02] is an organism. Yes. The snow that was here that we were recreating on is now melted. [45:08] It's filled the reservoir. That water has seeped into the earth. That has allowed for now these lush flowers and plants and trees and all these things to grow over the course of the summer. And the summer is like lush. It's like Switzerland over there with like, you know, swimming in the lake and in forests and flowers. And then you watch all the leaves turn red, orange, yellow and eventually die, get barren. And then that first storm comes and then you watch it happen again.

[45:34] And it's. [45:35] It was such a beautiful experience. Also, we're both from Southern California, for those listeners who are like, seasons are obvious. I'm sorry. I actually realized how. I don't know. I moved to New York. You did something similar shortly before I did. I moved to New York a couple years ago. I'm experiencing it. But this is also, I think, a level of... [45:49] A level of texture and richness on the season scale. And then I think the last thing I'd add to that is... [45:57] I was talking to Dave Morin, who spends a lot of time in mountains as well, and we were kind of talking about this notion of, like, why are we happier in the mountains?

And I think it's because... [46:07] when you live in a place [46:10] where the common denominator are revolving [46:13] Factor is nature or God. Let's say God isn't just the more, you know, whatever generalist phrase. [46:20] where it's something not in your control. [46:23] Everyone begins orienting on that. So if anyone's ever lived in a mountain town, or maybe the equivalent of lived in a beach town, you know that there's a frenetic energy in the air. [46:32] the night before a storm when the forecast is projecting nine inches of powder and everyone's like dinner's ending early everybody we're going to bed you know it's just kind of like and you're in the grocery store you know the the afternoon of and you're like oh storm's coming in you know so it's this amazing like lake way of living [46:50] in tune with your environment.

That I think brings you – [46:54] so much closer to everybody around you. And then that next morning when then everyone's on the hill and everyone's skiing together, it's so... [47:02] You just realize how precious it is. Like all these things came together. Yeah. The weather, the temperature. And you're not on your own schedule a little bit. Totally. Modern life is very much, I'm going to watch what I want to watch and do what I want to do. Totally. Get my food. Maximum efficiency. And on my schedule. On my schedule.

The exact schedule I want. 100%. Right. It's also, for those who don't know, the town you live in when you're [47:22] near powder is called Eden, Utah, which I think is about as telling as it gets. [47:27] I want to talk a little bit about this basket of architecture and planning and cities and some of your key inspirations, as people probably have a sense of. I think you're a very high action-oriented person, and you've done so much in the world, and you've thrown so many events and been in so many places.

But I think you're also pretty influenced by theory, and there are a couple of people in particular that I thought would be fun to chat about in that they – [47:51] embody so much of what feels like your core and core essence about how you think about building things, whether it be organizations or communities or places, this very bottom-up grassroots gardening orientation. And the two people in particular are Christopher Alexander and Jane Jacobs. For a while, while you were running FWB, you referred to yourself as the Jane Jacobs of Dow's, which was amazing.

Dr. Bizarro overlaps. Yeah, exactly. Literally, what better example [48:21] is this phrase, [48:22] that cities are like a mosaic of subcultures. [48:26] Maybe to start with cities, because this will get into some of the digital stuff and FWV stuff too, but... [48:32] I guess what is a very open-ended question, like what is important to you about cities and why are you so attracted to this very sort of like bottom-up emergent city? [48:43] orientation for the world, at least in these types of complex systems. [48:48] Yeah, I think the... Let's see, the triangulation of, like...

[48:53] let's call it some of these mediums of cities... [48:57] events, [48:58] social platforms. I think all these things I've always been drawn toward [49:02] I'm very fascinated by building systems that allow for randomness and connection to sort of occur. [49:08] So I, you know, to me, it's like kind of, [49:12] obsession over building the apparatus or the scaffolding that allows for [49:16] these sort of interactions to be facilitated. So, you know, whether it's when we were talking about events, lighting, music, you know, the distance between the stage to the bar, to me, it was no different than if you're thinking about building sort of a social app, thinking about where are people congregating inside of that digital space?

What is your relationship between, you know, sort of the push notification and getting pulled back? It's all the same thing, [49:46] designing the conditions. And then the human is being put inside of that environment to essentially [49:53] Thank you. [49:54] discover oneself and discover the environment around them. And it's through that process of discovery that I think like [50:00] that sort of joy is created that creates the delightful moments when we find a really cool application we like or when we go to a really good event or a good party.

And so it's all the same to me in a way. So – [50:10] architecture is the most permanent version of that, which is what is the most exciting and also daunting. You know, we read and I joke a lot about since he's a tech guy, he's used to being able to like push code and pull it back and manipulate it. But we're always reminding each other that the old in architecture and real estate, if you the only thing you can do, if you if you if you mess up is to grow IV on something.

So you can't you can't change it. I can't if I put the stage in the wrong place. That's why there's so much IV. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [50:40] And so – [50:41] Well, if I were to try to draw any distinction, to me at least... [50:44] architecture feels more like rules. And some of those elements you described, even in a physical environment, feel more like prompts or sort of like nudges or gestures. And the closer you get to physical durability, the more they're like imposing rules. [51:00] Notably, I mean, Christopher Alexander, when it comes to architects, is about as one end of the spectrum as you could possibly get.

Yeah, totally. [51:07] And so, yeah, I think I think what I what draws me most to those people like Jane or Christopher Alexander is just this very humanistic. [51:16] anthropological, sociological approach to thinking about systems and rules. They're pro-human, they're pro-feeling, they're pro-emotion of just like, [51:25] Why are we drawn towards... [51:28] natural light hitting the side of a nook underneath a windowsill. I don't know, but like anytime it's in a house... [51:34] you want to sit there. Yes. It's where you naturally sort of gravitate towards. And so I think thinking about, [51:41] Like, the theory side of it has always been really, really, really inspiring because, like...

[51:47] Why not stand on the shoulders of the giants who have come before you when painting on a really, really large scale on a canvas? It's like I almost don't have time or money to make mistakes like that, right? But you also don't get stuck – as someone who probably is slightly more in the – tempted to get stuck in the theory, like you are very much like theory so I can do stuff. Yeah, totally. I'm always – I'm only a theory so I can do stuff. How – any – any –