Rafa Conde - Make your designs memorable

[00:00] When you are working on something, you have the vision, like you know what you're trying to do. The goal is to communicate this idea as cleanly as you can to someone else. If I have this idea for a feature, don't just design the feature and share mock-ups. Don't just make a prototype and do a screen recording of you using the feature. Make an ad, right? Sell this idea. Welcome to Dive Club. My name is Rid, and this is where designers never stop learning. [00:30] Today's episode is with Rafael Kanda, who you might remember as Rafa from the Layout podcast that I used to listen to all the time.

Well, today he's working as a design engineer at Retro, which is one of my favorite consumer apps. So the focus of this conversation is all about how do you create software that makes people feel something. [01:00] but let's start by going all the way back to the beginning of Rafa's journey. It was my first MacBook and I got it at a mall at a store and then I went to the restaurant section above and I set it up on a table and yeah, you open the laptop and you see the video with the stars and the words.

It was like a whole experience. Still today, [01:21] remember how I felt, which is like, this is cool. I thought computers were cool, but this is like, cool, cool. Even not just computer cool. This is amazing. This is like a movie, sci-fi. Look, it's space. And then set the stage for everything else. Everything else I would see in experience, like just trying this computer. It had that background, that context. This is amazing. This is cool. This is polished. Everything's shiny at the time. Thing was glossy. I think as a designer, I'm trying to chase that.

[01:47] Like, that's what I want to do. [01:49] I want to make people feel something like that. Did you experience that? For me, the moment was kind of different, actually. But it was, did you ever play the game Draw Something on iOS? It was one of the early, like, that changed the way that I thought about software forever. Yeah. [02:03] playing that game because I understood software. I liked apps. I was even kind of tinkering with Adobe Illustrator and just kind of making things and playing around. But then I saw draw something and it was so fun.

And it just broke my box of what software could function as and where it could fit into my life. That was the moment for me where I'm like, I think I literally want to do this for the rest of my life is build stuff like this. There you go. Everyone has that, like the origin story as a designer or someone in tech, I think. There's always that you can always trace it back [02:33] Oh, even though I did go, I did study computer science in college, but it was not really because I wanted to be a programmer or anything.

Like I never had written any code or didn't even know how it worked, but it was mostly because I liked computer science. [02:47] technology. It's like in computers, video games, you know, and it felt like, oh, the world is all going to be software, right? Like it's all computers. So I felt like I might just do computers, like to understand the world, if that makes sense. I'm making it sound deeper than it actually was. I'm like, yeah, computers, sure, I'll do that. But it was like, yeah, that first year that, that's when I tried Mac and that's where I saw like indie devs, the apps, like [03:12] from panic and full of little delight and Easter eggs and just, [03:16] humanity was sprinkled into...

I could see the people... [03:20] Behind it. And before, the only other place where I saw... You could really feel the people making the thing... [03:26] The people behind the thing was like video games. The game, Metal Gear Solid... [03:31] the first one for PlayStation, where famously Hideo Kojima, he's the director behind that series, and he's very much like he puts himself into it. I think the first title card or something is like a game by Hideo Kojima. And even at the time, you wouldn't see that in video games. You wouldn't get the credits or the actors behind it.

That was not a thing in video games. That's a thing from movies. But no, Hideo Kojima is like, no, a game by Hideo Kojima. I'm going to put myself into this. [04:01] This is my interpretation of how a video game should be or whatever. And that game is full of those moments, like breaking the fourth wall, just making you think outside of the box. I'll give you two examples. For people listening to this, I think that game might be... [04:17] too old now for let's not date ourselves too much here okay playstation one you know what we didn't even call it a playstation one because there was only one so it was only one playstation yeah yeah but that game like at one point you have to call this character character called meryl and the game keeps telling you that you have to call her like oh yeah call meryl call meryl but you don't know her frequency like you don't know how to call her like you don't know her number the game will not tell you and you're stuck [04:42] because you know what you have to do, but you don't know how to do it.

So at some point, I'm sure you get so frustrated and so bored and so stuck that you start looking at the game box and you see the back of the box. And in the back, there's one of the screenshots of the game and explaining what the game is. In one of the screenshots, you see an image of a call between you, the character, and Meryl. And in that screenshot, you can see the frequency. And that's how you would know which number, like the caller. [05:12] would not fly nowadays. Wait, you're purposely getting gamers stuck and frustrated?

You're purposely getting people frustrated? That's usually something... [05:23] Even as designers, we avoid at all costs, right? We don't want users to get frustrated. Fine, this is a game, not an app or whatever, a tool. But frustration ignited creativity for some. I'm sure some people dropped it. Like, all right, you know what? I'm done with this game. I can't do it. But that moment is like so... Because when you get it, what you feel when you're like, oh, I get it. That feeling, man, is so memorable. It's forever. Here I am.

[05:51] telling you the story. And like there's this other character, a second moment from the game, there's another character called Psycho Mantis. He's the boss, really hard boss. And the whole thing about this character is like he's psychic and he can read your mind. So if you're trying to shoot it or something, you will always be one step ahead because it's reading your mind. And at some point the character says, here's a magic trick. Place your controller on a flat surface. [06:12] And you're like, your controller? Wait, it's already breaking the fourth wall.

What do you mean your controller? Because now he's talking to the player, not the character. So you put it and then uses the rumble feature, which was... [06:23] new and innovative at a time. So by vibrating the controller, it would move [06:29] It was like, see, magic trick, I'm making your controller move. That also blew my mind. And then the way you defeat this boss is you have to unplug the controller... [06:36] There were wires back then, for people listening. You had to plug in with a wire that controller. Anyway, so you had to unplug the controller from...

[06:46] controller one port and plug it in the controller two port and then all of a sudden he couldn't read your mind anymore no way and that's how you would defeat it do you understand rid do you understand what's going on here the creativity the genius the fun the frustration there's so many feelings there's so many emotions this is i know video games but like [07:05] These things, these moments, it imprinted on me. Like, this is what I would love to do. [07:10] to make other people, people using software that I designed or I made or whatever it is I make, I kind of want to inject some of that humanity, inject some of yourself in it a little bit, be creative when you can.

[07:22] And just create those moments of surprise. I know like surprise and delight. It's a very overused term nowadays. But I'm just going to use it again because I don't know what else to call it. But yeah, a little surprise. But like, oh, wow. Or I didn't think that was possible. Or how did I do that? That's cool. That's why I do, I think, what I do. Real quick message and then we can jump back into it. When you're prototyping with AI, if you're spending time recreating styles, components, and layouts from your actual product, I got news for you.

[07:52] either. That's why I love recommending Dessin to teams. In one click, you and everyone on your team can prototype directly in your codebase without ever opening an IDE. Dessin extracts your design language and gives you the perfect sandbox to explore without any of the technical hurdles. It's a pretty big deal and you can connect your codebase and start prototyping today. Just head to [08:22] to my computer before bed and then agents explore 20 different concepts on paper's canvas that I can review the next morning to pick a direction. And using paper to scale my explorations with AI is totally reshaping the way that I think about my design process.

And in the time that it would take me to make two manual iterations, I can see a design 10, 20 different ways on the canvas. And AI always comes up with something that I didn't consider. So I'll just grab my favorite parts from [08:52] concepts, start moving things around, making little tweaks, everything that the canvas is really good at. And then when I'm ready, I can just tell Claude or Codex to build the selected frame and there's nothing lost in translation because Paper's canvas already uses HTML and CSS. Paper has truly taken my design process to the next level.

I cannot recommend it enough. Just head to club slash paper to start designing today. Now onto the episode. I want [09:22] concept of you chasing that through your career has obviously played a big role. Maybe before we go into that, though, I'm curious if you've experienced that with any products recently, maybe something that feels a little bit more like a traditional digital product, just to help people wrap their head around what this actually could look like. And then maybe from there, we can then talk about, okay, like how have you pursued that?

But does anything come to mind where you played it or used a product for the first time? You're like, oh, wow, this did [09:52] This new app is designed for you to track the position of the sun and where the light is coming from. Oh, interesting. Say that if you're doing a shoot, like a movie or production, whatever, TV, and you need to know at what time of day, where is the sun coming? And the way you interact with this UI is a lot of gyroscope motion stuff. And it's a super cool UI that you wouldn't really expect.

And everything is really polished. So I'm going to send you the links. Two examples that come to mind. [10:22] is maybe a little bit easier because it is very, very consumer, almost more game-like. [10:28] Have you ever played with the Tolan app? [10:31] Maybe a long shot. Okay, so Tolan, T-O-L-A-N, is this... [10:37] AI companion, but it's cute. The branding is amazing. And they turned it into this game where you're kind of building this world together. And I don't know, I saw it enough times where I was like, I'm just going to download this and play with it.

And the initial experience of this app is unbelievable because they throw you so deep into this world. And you're talking with this oracle who's like understanding who you are as a person. And then you meet this new friend and [11:07] of consumer is a little bit easy mode because you can take more risks but another example that i think is interesting is we've continually had this raising of the bar for onboarding experiences for new browsers so like our browsers onboarding experience was crazy like that was crazy and then they you know had to one-up themselves with dia but then comet came out with perplexity and like you have the the space overlay on your mac when you have all the sound effects and the planets

[11:37] where they didn't need to do any of that, but I felt it for sure. Interesting that browsers became the space to do that, like the unboxing experience. The most commodified tool ever. Yeah. Well, you need to stand out, right? That first impression. I'm surprised that we don't do more of this. I mean, I also know and learned the hard way why we don't. But even when I was at Sketch, I did prototype and played around with some ideas. But you don't want to hijack their computer. You don't want to play sounds.

[12:07] You know, there's a lot of reasons why you shouldn't do it, but there's also some reasons why you should. And who's making that call, right? In the world where I feel like you design for everyone, right? You have to take into all kinds of users, which is great. [12:22] I'm not saying we shouldn't. It's good. Accessibility-wise, and just be aware of every type of user that might be interacting with us. But at the same time, if you try to generalize so much... [12:32] then [12:33] It's harder to do those more like targeted experiences, if you will.

At Retro, I worked on like the little, I don't know if you call it unboxing, but we would play a little video with haptics and stuff the first time you would launch it. It was very much like targeted to a type of audience. It's like a slideshow of pictures, like emotionally charged a little bit with like a message going through. And then there's a haptic that you feel it with every new picture in the slideshow. [13:03] ads and slop and AI and reels and whatever, and then we lose some of the special moments with friends, family, things that matter.

This is the type of the message. And it starts very fast. And because of the haptics, you can feel the fast pace of it. And then as it goes, it slows down. [13:21] to kind of communicate that thing like, hey, let's slow down. [13:24] In this world that's very noisy and very fast, let's slow down and... [13:29] get back to essentials or what matters or whatever. I think it was a neat idea. I think it's cool. I liked it. I think people that see this may be like, that's neat. [13:39] Great.

But also, you're introducing like a 10-second video... [13:44] before showing them the [13:46] the sign up button. [13:49] There's a lot of reasons why people just drop. They did, by the way. Just a little insight. Finally, this guy is saying something useful for people listening. Where are the lessons? Hi, I'm Rafa. I'm here in this podcast and it's a great honor. Rit has had a bunch of brilliant, brilliant, smart guests. Now it's my turn. It's my turn to ground a little bit [14:16] Have the audience finally connect and relate to, "Oh yeah, he's not that smart.

That's nice. I can see myself in this podcast." Anyway, so we do this video and we test it. I think we lost 20% or 30% of signups for people who would see the video first. It makes sense, but sure, signups, but what about at the end of the onboarding, meaning [14:38] Maybe a lot of people drop, but would those people drop anyways during the onboarding flow or no? And then the numbers get a little bit softer. It's not that big of an impact. And then we didn't really do much in-depth testing and whatever.

We don't know what kind of users would we get out of this thing. But suffice to say, of course, you're going to play a video before. At that time, you had to tap and hold to skip. Because I didn't want people accidentally tapping and skipping. Because I worked a lot on this video and I want people to see it. Of course, everyone wants to see this, right? [15:08] skip it. It's beautiful. Stop. But yeah, no. So a lot of people dropped in like, all right, well, let's make it easy. [15:14] easier to skip, maybe.

Then, if you really don't want to watch this, you don't have to... [15:20] quit the app. It could just stop. And it helped. And then, like, actually, we were playing the sound, regardless of your, like, the mute switch state or whatever in the phone. Because I'm like, we only have one opportunity to show this video, and the soundtrack kind of [15:34] plays a big role in how it makes you feel and all. So I didn't want to risk people not listening because I, as a user, my phone is on silent, like, all the time.

Constantly, yeah. So if I'm designing for myself, like, oh, I, as a user, would be bummed if I didn't, because how would you even know there was sound? And then we, like, we maybe softened that up and actually... [15:55] Like we would respect the mute switch. It's a great experience that I think for people who would appreciate this, it would make a big impact, but also has a big impact on everything else. And there's a reason why Apple doesn't do the video anymore when you open your Mac. Cause like, Hey,

[16:09] There's people who buy these computers who are like... [16:11] massive organizations and companies, and we have to set up 200 of these. And if I have to wait 10 minutes to watch a video every time I open one, [16:19] to set it up, like, come on, right? So if you try to design for everyone, [16:23] then it's harder to make these things. It's harder to, like Hideo Kojima when he was doing Metal Gear Solid, if the goal was like you have to do the mainstream game that everyone is going to love and everyone's going to beat it and it's going to be the greatest game ever for the masses, then he couldn't do those things.

You can't purposefully get players stuck and frustrated, right? You know what I mean? So I feel like that's why nowadays, like before you would see more of like big companies doing these risks, [16:53] And that's why we see it in smaller platforms. [16:56] indie shops, smaller devs that can make the risks. My own side projects are full of these little things that I don't really do in my day job, right? Or do it at a not as much or not as intensely because the pressure is off. And then it's fine if I lose 10% of my user base.

I think there's a middle ground too that's kind of interesting. One of the lessons that I internalized from one of the co-founders at Maven years ago, where especially as a designer that skews slightly more technical, I see all the edge cases. I see all of the different personas, [17:26] I see all of the ways that an experience could be suboptimal for this specific type of person in this specific type of state. And it's really easy to let those people, [17:37] Not happy paths, [17:39] like lower the ceiling of what the experience can be for the people that we really care about and the persona that we're really optimizing for.

And I think I've had to almost unlearn. [17:48] some of that a little bit where I'm like, no, no, no. [17:51] I'm okay, not ignoring, that's a strong word, you know, but downplaying the impact for this 1% of state or this 1% of users, if it means that I can create something that's really special for the people that I want to make sure are sticky and love the product. And maybe that does mean adding a little bit more friction if I feel confident that I can create this feeling that is going to, you know, build affinity with whatever I'm making or something like that.

There's a lot of lessons that I've just internalized from my early days as a designer [18:21] Like, don't make users scroll or whatever. Don't. Like, labels everywhere. And all these things are great and good lessons because you're making software more accessible. [18:30] at the same time, [18:31] People are more used to computers, like new users, as they were 20 years ago. Some of these things I've been trying to, like you said, unlearn. Because like, oh, no, people have to swipe horizontally. They don't know how. We have to put pagination or whatever.

And then you test it if you want. And then you realize, oh, no, no, people know how to scroll. They'll scroll. I guess it's fine. Apple removed the home indicator a little bit. [18:57] grabber thing, right? Yeah. From NIOs36. Yeah. [19:01] Can you imagine? [19:02] The designer in me, I'm like, "Oh no, but how will people know?" - Such a good example, you're right. - And they did that for billions of people. - Yeah, but at the scale, at that scale. And I'm sure people at Apple have the stats to back this up.

I'm sure they've tested it, 'cause they're not a company that takes those big risks. No backlash. I haven't heard a single person, like real person, like not designers on Twitter. I haven't heard a single person be like, [19:27] "Oh no, I don't know how to go back." I wonder if there was a drop off in the beginning though. There had to be some moment of frustration, but they were like, "You know what? We know this is going to be a learning curve. [19:39] But it's a bet on people's... [19:41] ability to figure it out and we know that this will be a better experience we know that this is going to raise the ceiling so we're going to do it anyway even if there is like a lull or a period of frustration i love that example i haven't thought about that in a long time because that was a big decision yeah and so some of those assumptions that i just grew up with like i have to challenge myself a little bit and like trust the user a little bit more and as i'm saying this i'm just like it hurts on the inside because it goes against everything i've ever like [20:07] taught or learned.

No, make it more and more accessible all the time. And I still, to a certain extent, agree to that, but also trust him a little bit. Users aren't all that dumb, right? And to go back to Hideo Kojima Metal Gear Solid. [20:21] Trust that they'll look in the back of the case at some point when the frustration is real. Can we get... [20:26] like really deep on the retro onboarding here for a second because yeah, [20:30] I think... [20:32] Your haptic idea is kind of genius, actually. And I think there's a lot of really good design, at least in my head, when I'm ideating.

It's like, oh, this is going to... [20:42] look or feel beautiful. But I think what is inspiring to me listening to you talk is, [20:48] You were designing from this core or like root realization that you wanted people to have in that moment. Like the actual slowing down, like there was like a physical response almost that you were trying to create in design, which I think is so interesting. Like how quickly did you arrive there? Can we just use that as a way to look at some of your creative process and how you're even thinking about going from the design?

[21:12] blank canvas of what do we want to do here to where you landed? Yeah, I'll prove that there's no genius here at all. Like I started with, I'll do a slideshow because one, it's easy to do like technically. The second, [21:24] I knew I wanted haptics. Not because I wasn't... At that point, I was not like, because I want to make people feel the thing. No, it was more like, because it makes it more dynamic and haptics are fun. It makes it more interesting than just a video. So it started from there.

Like, okay, slideshow, because it's easy and I can do it. And haptics, because whatever. And then also, if I were to make a video and play a video file, then it would be so hard to... [21:48] sync the haptics with a video. Maybe there's a way. I don't know how to do that. So it's just like I'll do what I know how to do. So that's why I settled on Slideshow. [21:57] And in slideshow, I looked at a bunch of slideshows and ad campaigns and stuff that uses the slideshow format because I was trying to deconstruct it.

My first take was way too much motion, and I had a little Ken Burns effect and all that stuff. And I realized it's too much. And then I just analyzed, studied a bunch of other slideshows and ad campaigns. And I realized, oh, actually, no, there's no transition. There's no fades between the photos. No, it's just snap, snap, snap. Very easy. [22:27] but the whole animation has a slow zoom. I started there, and then I did the haptics. And then I realized with the haptics that I was actually feeling the pacing of the slideshow, of the video.

And then I was doing, you know, we have a daily call with everyone on the team, and I was showing them, and we had builds, and people were playing it and trying them. And I'm pretty sure it was one of my co-workers... [22:49] It was Sean or Cheryl, but someone was like, we realized that we were feeling the pacing and then we're like going over the story. Because at that point, I only had the script. And I think one of them suggested like, hey, it would be nice if we start faster and then we go slower.

And then it all just fell into place a little bit. So it was not... [23:05] I didn't have the whole idea and whole vision... [23:08] right at the start. It was like, I'll start doing the things I know how to do, and slowly, like, oh, yeah, that would be cool and doable. Oh, yeah, that would be nice. And everything was kind of like, everything's like a little accident of the process. Once we figured out the thing of, like, starting fast, ending slow, [23:25] slowing down, then a lot of design decisions around it had that as the goal.

Then everything became easier. So for example, when it was time for me to do the soundtrack, which is a very short little thing, but I started with... [23:38] street noise. So at the top of the video you hear the the second little piano thing, which is like in itself a calming [23:47] sound piece of music, but then I added a bunch of street noise and like, you [23:52] I think it was at a restaurant or something. It just went on copyright. Free sounds I could use. Yeah, and people talking and stuff.

And then I would slow that down a little bit. And then halfway through the video, you don't hear any of that. Which pairs really nicely with the slowing down as well visually with the slideshow. The physical aspect of it with the haptics. And now the sound. The sound is also... [24:16] kind of slowing down, focusing on the music and like removing noise. So once you got that motif, that like metaphor, everything else was just working around that and it fell into place. And the whole thing is quite short. It's like, I think, I don't think even like seven seconds or something.

I forget. No genius is like, I'll just start with what I know how to do, talk to people, get other ideas, and then everything kind of falls in place. I like that it started with the haptics too. Like you didn't start from a problem solving or, [24:46] Everything... [24:47] buzzed and vibrated in my hand how can i use that and then you got to that place and also like so often i mean that's my experience too it's like maybe i'll spend days in search of the motif and then you find the motif and then everything just unravels from there there's so much momentum in every direction yeah exactly [25:02] Can we go a little bit deeper into retro for a second?

I feel like we're winding, but I love this product. [25:15] your role specifically, because I know you kind of have this hybrid set of skills. So I'm interested to see what that looks like in a daily, weekly practice. I was looking around for a new... [25:26] job, a new thing to do. I was fortunate enough that I was talking to some companies and products that I just [25:33] used in a door and they're great, but usually all of them were a big company company. [25:37] I've never done the big company thing.

And I was convinced that, like, this is my time to do the big company thing a little bit. [25:44] Based on the people I was talking to and based on also just like... [25:49] the state of the industry. It's not a good time to look for a job. It's tough out there. So it's not getting picky or anything. I was also considering very realistically just doing my own stuff and going indie, which is... [26:00] Also, it's a big risk and it's very scary. And I feel like I have been considering this for years and years.

And I feel like with every new job search, I'm like, could it be now? So I was weighing these two. Either I go big company or go the other opposite and let me do... [26:19] indie stuff. And then the people at Retro approached me and I have been [26:24] a user. I've been using that app since they started, like in TestFlight, way back, I think three years ago-ish. Retro is like what Instagram used to be. It's a private social network for friends and family. There's no ads. There's no influencers. There's nothing.

It's like a really small, closed social network for friends and family to share just your day-to-day. Again, what Instagram used to be, but now you open Instagram and you're like, fall down the hole [26:54] has passed. What happened? And also, where are my friends? I haven't seen the same picture of friends. Anyway, so that's what Retro is. I've been such a big fan for so long. When they reached out, I was so stoked to also learn more about the company because I knew nothing. I don't think I knew anyone working there.

[27:10] behind the company, behind the product. So then I got to know them, and it's a very small team. I think six or seven? I don't know. The complete opposite end of the spectrum from the big company route that you're considering. And it's one of the few feel-good apps that... [27:26] that I use generally day to day. It was also like a similar reason why I joined Sketch, like an app that I just absolutely adore and I use. So it was like the same motivation. Like this is an app that I like.

It's a good product to exist in the world. It makes the world a little bit better, I think. And then I also discovered that the team itself, they don't just do retro. They're trying to build a little portfolio of apps. They're like an app studio, if you will. And retro is an app. - Oh, I didn't know that. - But they recently also shipped, they built this app [27:54] called Splat team. They were trying to play around with generative AI and just learn a bit. And so Splat is, [28:02] There's an app for iPad and iPhone as well, but you select a picture or, like, take a picture of your kids and stuff with generative AI technology.

[28:11] creates like a coloring book, coloring thing for kids. And you can just like, [28:15] have the kids' color in the app itself, or how I use it, I just print it. [28:21] So I just take a picture of my kids or, like, they pick a funny photo and we create a little, like, cartoon version of it that they can color. And again, one of those apps that, like, feels good. This is nice. It's a nice thing. And because it's designed a little bit for kids, no dark patterns, no weird, you know, upsells and ads and stuff.

Feels very simple. Like, very... [28:42] Genuine, without that pressure and burden of like design for scale and for business and for all that. So anyway, so here comes Retro and this team and they're like right in the middle. They're not a big company. [28:54] But they're also not going indie, but it's doing the type of apps and the type of work that I think I would generally want to do in my free time if I had the resources and time. So it felt really nice. And then after I got to meet everyone, everyone's just a great team.

So it was a no-brainer for me to join. And I've been there for, I joined in February, so three months. We're six or seven people. We don't really have titles, but I think I'm a design engineer. [29:20] That's my official, that's what's in the contract. - It's the hot buzzword right now anyway. - Yeah. They're like, all right, this guy knows how to code. And it was funny 'cause it changed even from the time I was talking to people, like getting to know the team and was interviewing. And by the time I actually joined and started working, it already changed in the sense that like, we had this other product designer, Sean, who at the time when I would talk to them, they were like, "Yeah, I mean, we do primarily like Figma and stuff, "but I've been more and more like with AI, like working [29:48] building prototypes and stuff.

And that's where he was, at least that's the impression I got the first time I spoke to him, like, oh, okay, he's more of a traditional product designer who does mostly like Figma stuff. But now with these AI tools, he's doing more and more prototypes in code. [30:03] Cool. And I also spoke to Cheryl, who has been doing a lot of the marketing stuff and also doing some of the product design. But the first time I spoke with her, she was not doing really anything with code. At least that's the impression I got.

And right now, everyone's doing everything. [30:18] Because I thought, oh, I'm going to be the guy, the designer who knows how to code. [30:23] And now it's like, no, everyone knows how to code, kind of. We're all using AI tools. We're all building prototypes in code. Sometimes I build a prototype directly in the main app, like the code base. Sometimes I create little separate. [30:36] like, you know, projects, Xcode projects for prototypes. But like Sean, who was like, yeah, I'm starting to do some prototypes with AI. Now, like the most recent feature, the recap stickers, he built most of it, like the actual code that went into production code.

And now Cheryl is also doing a bunch of prototypes and building, like opening PRs and stuff with some cool product features. It's fascinating to see. Also tricky to navigate because like we see the risks. [31:06] try to incorporate a whole prototype into production. Like actually, yeah, this is quite buggy and hard to navigate and it's a bit messy. So we're learning and like two steps forward, one step back sometimes. Even myself, like what I do when I have an idea and I have to think, am I going to do a Figma thing or am I going to do like a separate prototype in code?

Or am I going to go try and build this in a separate branch directly in the app? It's more like [31:32] What's going to be faster? That's usually my go-to, especially in early exploration phases, like where the goal is to communicate something. So sometimes the Figma thing is faster. [31:41] but also not a lot of times. [31:43] I think the fastest, at least the most efficient that I'm at is in a separate... [31:48] isolated code project, you know, new Xcode project. That's my sweet spot. But sometimes I'm like, actually, I need like real data or I need other features of the app to work with this.

And sometimes it is just faster to like, [32:01] create a new branch of the main app and just pull from there. Whatever I decide to go, whatever the flow, the process, it ends, for me, it ends with usually a video. It's like a medium production little video. [32:13] that I share on Slack. Because I feel like when you are working on something, you have the vision. Like you know what you're trying to do. I hope so. But you have the idea. The goal is to communicate this idea as... [32:25] cleanly as you can to someone else because you think it's awesome.

So if you just do a perfect transfer of idea without losing anything, the other person is going to think it's awesome as well. That's the ideal thing. And for me, I realized that... [32:39] The video is my most effective way of transferring an idea from one person to another. It's the format that there's... [32:48] the least loss of information around it. Because if I just do a static mock-up, here's a picture. There's a lot missing. [32:55] they might not make the transfer, right? You know what I mean? If it's like a little video, there's motion, there's like a little prototype.

All right, now you're communicating more. Communicating on the flow, communicating animation, if there's some, right? You're doing more. If you do a whole prototype and you send them a build and like try it, okay, you're doing more, communicating more. But for me, the video is like I can show you things [33:17] I can talk over it and just verbally tell you all the things that you should focus on and what's important. I can communicate... [33:24] excitement in the new pair that were like a very light... [33:28] upbeat soundtrack or cool whatever whatever it is you guys you add soundtracks to it oh dude yeah i do like a little mini video okay go deeper here what makes a good video talk about what is included in here because i've never added a soundtrack but now i'm very oh these are like the guidelines that i have to follow when i'm making one of these it has to be like under 10 minutes that's a rule because people are not going to sit down and like watch a [33:50] 30-minute video on Slack.

Under 10, ideally five. That's like the best little nugget. I'll sit through a five-minute video. If it's an eight-minute video, I'm like, maybe I'll watch it later when I have more time. I'll turn it up to 1.5 if it's eight minutes. Yeah, sure. So you do that. It's a short video. You do the soundtrack just because, especially if there's a lot of talking, if it's just talking, it's more boring. If you add a little soundtrack, upbeat thing, it keeps it interesting. And also, if you're like, say that you're talking about

[34:20] one point and then you move to another point you do a little soundtrack change and now the person just feels like okay now it's a new thing like now it's a different thing this feels different and then you add some humor you make some jokes you make it funny to watch and if it's funny people will want to watch it because it's entertaining ultimately it's that make it entertaining they're paying attention like they want to consume this they want to see this it's funny it's cool make something that it's interesting funny and hopefully communicates the idea very well like if i have [34:50] Don't just design the feature and share mockups.

Don't just make a prototype and do a screen recording of you using the feature. Make an ad, right? [35:02] This idea, if we're making a new feature that is like, oh, this would be so cool, show someone using it. Make it look cool. If it's something that like, oh, I think this would be very emotional and people really appreciate it. You make this app for parents and grandparents. Oh, make it emotional. I went back to drop the up, Pixar's up, the soundtrack. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, man.

Drop it. Boom. You're going to make me tear up. Yeah. [35:32] invoke emotion in you. Yeah. And maybe it's a cheap shot, but like, hey, you know, whatever works, sell it. And so you might think like, that's great, but I don't know how to do a video. And that sounds like a lot of work. It might, but for me, it's not. And it's not because like, oh, because I'm so good at it. It's because like, [35:47] You do it a bunch of times and then it becomes easier. And like you just fake it and hack it.

Like it doesn't need to be perfect, but like just make it scrappy, which can make it even more funny. You know, anyway, I'm just saying that's something I still don't see a lot. I think it's very underutilized. But as designers, we're always trying to sell ideas and communicate ideas. And if you haven't been using videos as a way to sell those, try it. [36:17] The practice of design is changing, and the whole process of getting feedback just doesn't quite cut it in today's world. That's why I'm excited to announce that InFlight is officially an open beta.

It's the feedback tool that I've always wanted, and it's built for a world that moves at the speed of AI. So I can share my prototypes, give context and video walkthroughs, and InFlight makes it easy to get the exact feedback that I need to move forward, [36:47] to ship a new idea. And all of this is available in a single link that I can drop into Slack or maybe even share with power users to test out a new prototype. I use InFlight every day and it's totally transformed the way that I share work.

So I'm excited for you to try the product. And if you ever want to jam about it, just email me at rid at co. I love that. And it ties back to something that was honestly one of the first probably 30 episodes I did that I still [37:17] Talked about how the best designers are almost like little TikTok creators inside of their orgs. [37:21] And you got to entertain people in order to get you like, you know, buy in for ideas. And it's like one of those skills that doesn't feel like it fits inside of the boundary lines of what a designer should be responsible for or how we should think about our craft and our practice.

But if you lean into it, it's like really, really valuable. And yet, I don't know, I don't hear a lot of people. I think it is, like you said, it's radically underutilized. [37:42] And we talk a lot about, well, frame the problem, give good context. Yes, totally. But how can you make things entertaining? Music, humor, I think that's fascinating. For somebody who is inspired, who's like, all right, I'm going to try this. They have no idea where to start. What tools do you even use? How does somebody think about the very first video?

For screen recordings and stuff, if I'm doing a quick screen recording, I'll use ScreenFlow. Yeah. [38:06] mostly even going one step back if it's something just very simple very quick and i'm not doing soundtracks or anything i'm just recording the screen to show like a prototype or whatever i'll use like clean shot i'll just you know just record the screen but then a clean shot has this uh feature for you to like add your camera as like picture in picture a little circle of your your camera which helps if you see a face it helps instead of just like a [38:29] voice in the background.

[38:32] That's not very funny or entertaining. So what I do is I don't use those. I just use, I open HandMirror. It's a great app. Everyone should download it. I think it's one of the best apps. I think HandMirror might be one of the greatest apps ever made. Absolutely. Absolute legend. Anyway, I use HandMirror. Maybe people don't. I'm joking. I'm not. We'll get to it the next question. Just keep going. You're doing great. Anyway, so what I do is I open HandMirror, and you have a little window, [39:02] I drag it in, I resize it, even just the way you start the video.

If you start a video saying like, hey everyone, so I want to show you this prototype that I made. That's one way. You can go about it, you can do it that way. But you can also do like start recording the screen and then... [39:15] dragged [39:17] like a video, a head mirror window with yourself in it. Drag it in frame and say, hey, I want to show you a prototype. You know, it's kind of silly. You have to be comfortable with being a bit silly. It's okay. People won't make fun of you.

Do something like that, which is a bit more scrappy, but it kind of makes it... [39:33] It makes it a bit different, more entertaining again. But yeah, so I use... [39:37] Some of the clean shot screen flow [39:39] for some basic like [39:41] editing after the fact if they record a screen. But then I use Kino a lot to just use my phone to record. I do B-roll. Like I've noticed like, so if you go on my Twitter and you see the video of that retro intro that we just talked about, I realized that if you show like a screen recording of the video, it has some emotional weight.

But if you record... [40:03] Someone holding the phone and seeing the same content hits different. [40:07] It's more real. So a lot of times, most of the times actually, instead of me recording, say, the simulator on the screen, I'll load it on my device, I hold my device, and I record me using the thing at like a slight angle. This makes it a bit more real. It's one thing to show what a character is looking at. It's another just to show the character's face reacting to what they're seeing. And it carries a different weight.

Those little tips, like... [40:32] I do a lot of B-roll. I do a lot of me using the app. Speaking of making an ad, but if I'm trying to say, okay, so imagine you come home from work, and you sit at your desk, and you open this app, I'll record myself coming in and sitting at my desk and opening the app. No way. Just so you can see that as you're... That's cool. As I'm saying it, you see it also. Again, it makes it a bit more entertaining. So yeah, use your phone, record some video.

[40:54] Record videos of your phone. Yeah, and then do little edits. I use Final Cut. [40:59] Because I'm a boomer. I'm not a boomer. [41:01] But sometimes I feel like one. You keep trying to date yourself. [41:06] I'm not that old, but I do feel very old, right? So every time I say I'm not that old, I have to feel very old. We started talking about Leopard. That's how you opened this podcast. You started, was it Snow Leopard? I'm like, no, older. I'm older than that. Oh, man. Let's talk about Handmir and the bucket of personal projects because...

[41:26] We've talked a lot about personal expression and software and creating things that make people feel something and how much of a motivating factor that's been in your career. And I think you've had a lot of opportunities to really... [41:36] lean into that because you're designing for kind of yourself in some ways. So are there examples from personal products that we could kind of go deep into to really look at like [41:48] Given this desire to create software that makes people feel something and add that surprise and delight that is a reflection of even who you are as the creator, what does that look like in practice?

Are there places or things that you've made where you're like, yeah, this is where I really reached for that feeling? [42:05] It's one thing that I'm still trying to figure out. I don't know what the answer is. If I somehow knew that no one is going to see my work, if it would look different or not, I don't know the answer. Interesting. Yeah. I just know that like… [42:17] All the little apps that I make on the side, a lot of my side projects, I start with the assumption that no one's going to use this.

They're usually very niche. [42:23] And 100% started as me scratching my own itch. Like, I want an app that does this. So I started building it. And right from the start, I started building it already with, like, yeah, but I'll... [42:36] make an app out of it. [42:38] I'll distribute it. I'll put it in store. It's going to be a product, but it always starts with, I need it. I want this app to exist. Sometimes they already exist, but differently. So yeah, maybe there's already apps that open the camera, but I feel like I can make it even simpler.

I want it to work in a certain way. The journey, building the thing is fun and making it funnier and more entertaining as the process of building it, it's kind of like my currency, my fuel. [43:08] want it. I don't want to build something. I don't have the motivation and energy. Either I won't do it or I'll do a bad job at it. So I need to find ways that would make me motivated, excited to do certain things. And like Hand Mirror is by far my most popular side project. It's the only one that really like broke out of the little like nerd circle that I'm in.

It started like just during COVID. I was, I want to check my camera before joining video calls. And nowadays Zoom and Google [43:38] and all that. I think they have this feature where before joining in the call, you can see your camera feed. But at the time, that didn't exist. Was it because of hand mirror? Who knows? No one knows. No. [43:51] So I wanted to check my camera, and I was opening Photo Booth. So I used Raycast or Spotlight at the time, and I would do P-H-O... [43:59] Eventually, Photo Booth would appear, I would hit enter.

[44:02] spotlight in those type of apps, learn from your behavior. So if you do pH, [44:07] And then you hit and you select photo booth. [44:10] it'll promote that to the top spot. So every time you do pH... [44:13] Photo booth is there. But I don't want photo booth to be the top spot. I want photos. If you do PH, my brain is like, expect photos. So I was annoyed at that fact that photo booth is being used so often. I'm like, I don't want to do this. So I want to build a thing that you click a button in the menu bar and you see your camera.

That was it. [44:34] And I built that before AI, y'all. I did this by hand. [44:39] Anyway, it's the simplest app possible. This is like a little demo project, really. It was so simple, in fact, that when I submitted to the App Store, it got rejected because it's too simple of an app. We need to add more stuff. No way. Yeah. I've never heard of it before. It's like, okay, I don't know what else to add it. This is the app. So it was not in the App Store when I launched it.

I just put it on the website. [45:04] COVID. [45:05] I don't know, The Verge picked it up and wrote about it. And then it blew up. And after the fact, I was like, "All right, I really want to put it in the App Store," because I didn't even build a way of updating the app. So then I added some more stuff. I added an About page and a Settings page, and I kind of came up with... [45:22] forced myself to have settings, like little icons, different icons or whatever. And then apparently that was enough for Apple to allow it in the App Store.

This is the simplest app possible, and there's not much for you to... [45:33] play around with. But I'm like, okay, I have an about page. [45:36] What should I do in the About page? I'll show the icon and the name and the version name. And then, like, yeah, but let me add some, like, credits. So, like, created by and special thanks to and all that stuff. And then the app icon was, like, a little mirror with, like, [45:51] the photo booth curtain. That's why we had the red curtain. And I thought, wouldn't it be nice if here I can...

[45:56] move the curtain, and then you could see yourself in the app icon because it's a mirror. [46:01] So I'll do like the camera view from there. And so you, and then you do it and yeah, that's funny. [46:06] I mean, it's a little thing, but like, yeah, that's cool. And then like, hey, wouldn't it be funny if, like, I designed myself into a corner where like if you unlocked Handmirror Plus, which everyone should do. Actually, one of the best things for my career is when I unlocked Handmirror Plus. That was, yeah, everyone should do it, I think.

I'm proud to say that I did it. I did it. I did it. Of course. And that's why you're one of the greats. It's worth it. Yes. [46:28] the reason. Anyway, so I designed myself into a corner where I put [46:32] that as a toggle [46:34] So like if you subscribe, it turns on the toggle. And I thought, oh, wait, but you can't unsubscribe. So I was lazy also. I'm very lazy. So I don't want to design something else. So I was like, hey, maybe the toggle, if you try to...

[46:48] turn it off, it shakes. It says, no, sorry, you can't do that. So that's what I did. I was like, if you try, it just shakes. Sorry, no take backsies. Like you, you have it. So a lot of these little things like, Hey, [46:59] Wouldn't it be funny? Just do it. If you think in a side project, in that type of like no pressure, who cares? [47:07] Do it. When it was time for me to come up with a name for the... [47:10] unlockable, hand mirror, whatever. I was like, hand mirror plus, hand mirror plus, because everyone's doing the plus.

Or hand mirror pro, [47:18] Right. But should it be plus or like the plus sign or the word plus? And I was just I don't know. And then I I wanted to test in the UI. So like I built the thing where if you clicked on it, it would switch the string, the label. So I just I could look at it. [47:32] And I'm like, well, that's kind of funny. And then I added more, like Handmirror Ultra, Handmirror Plus Plus, Handmirror, whatever. I just started adding more and more. And then if you clicked on it, it would switch the labels.

Like, actually, that would be funny if people could switch the name. And then I thought, where else in the app do I show the name Handmirror Plus? So then everywhere in the app, if you click on the label, it changes the name. And then Handmirror 3000, Handmirror 3000, whatever I could come up with. That's good. I was watching 30 Rocks. [48:02] And mirror-er-er-er. I don't know if you know that. Like, whatever. If I think it was, like, just a tiny bit, like, a little bit funny, add it. So these things, like, it just makes the process of building it a bit easier.

It's a bit more entertaining. Even if it's just because then you can, like, take a screenshot and tweet about it. That's funny. So do it. If you think, like, wouldn't it be funny? Do it. [48:26] Just do it. Why not? It's one of the things that makes me so excited about the era that we're in right now is... [48:32] you see way more designer side projects because you didn't have to earn the ability with the years of coding under your belt. And even if you have no idea how any of it works, you can still kind of make something.

So you have this surface area where you can do the kind of personal expression because I remember, gosh, I don't remember what I would have been using. Maybe it was hand mirror. [48:48] I can't remember when I found your stuff, but then I was like, [48:53] Who is this guy? And then I click through to your website. [48:55] And it's you like leaning over the hero section and like waving and trying to like shoot me out. I'm like, you know what? This is funny. Humor is amazing. [49:06] a big part of a user experience.

We don't think about it. It's like humor isn't UX design. It's like, no, no, actually, it's like a core tenet of a lot of your side projects. And it's what makes them good in many ways. To go all the way back, look at us, professionals, podcasters, and tying up everything. To go back to the beginning, doing something that makes people feel something. If you do something that's funny, it makes people laugh. I mean, not necessarily out loud, but if you're like, huh, that is a feeling. Finding something funny makes you feel

[49:36] and that's one way of making people feel it, feel your work, feel something. And if you make people feel something, it's way more memorable. You will remember the things that made you feel a certain way. [49:49] Not necessarily the things that are like, oh, man, it was such a fast workflow, that app, 10 years ago, remember? No, you don't. [49:59] And I'm not saying that those things aren't important. They are very important. But, like, the emotion. [50:04] That will stay. The thing on my website, again, I designed myself into a corner again because now people liked it and now I don't have a better idea.

You can't change it. I add the green screen. [50:15] Because a friend of mine sent me a green screen to Marissa. I want to give a shout out because we worked together at Netlify. And one day she sent me a green screen and changed my life. Anyway, so then I did that. [50:26] And like, well, since I'm here and I say hi, what else am I going to do? How do I leave, right? Or do I loop this video? That's never nice to see a looping video. So then I did like, okay, maybe it'll be funny, again, breaking the fourth wall and things, like where I get bored or like it gets awkward.

It gets awkward. So in my website, I jump out, I say hi, and then I get really awkward because like, why are you still looking at me? Please scroll. And if you did scroll, which is what you should be doing, right? [50:54] Then you don't see me get awkward, so it's not awkward. [50:56] So it's okay. But if you stay there and you look at me... [51:00] Don't do it. Don't be creepy. But yeah, I get awkward. And then I try to tell you, go away. And then I leave. And then if you just wait, I eventually come back and like, why are you still here?

So I really pushed that to the max as far as I could go. But again, just because it was easy. It's way easier for me to make a video than it is to create a super cool video. [51:22] animation, interactive hero section, because I'm lazy and I don't know how to do that stuff. So I'm like, well, I'll do the video. That's easy. Can we talk to somebody who is inspired by this conversation? They want to tap into this new strain of what their work can be, [51:39] They don't feel this connection to output right now, and maybe the reason is because they're working somewhere that feels a lot more like Netlify than retro.

And they're kind of hunting for, like, what do I even do with this? Do you have any thoughts for that person? To go back, it's that feeling. Wouldn't it be funny? Like, 99% of the time, it's like, yeah, it would, but no, come on. There's a lot of reasons why we shouldn't. [52:02] to whatever. But always chase those little ideas. [52:07] Like, don't... [52:07] Wouldn't it be funny? Like, okay, maybe. Show me. [52:11] Too little muck, too little prototype. [52:13] Like, what are you thinking? Would it be funny? If that's a question you ask yourself, like, answer it.

Give it a try. Do you think it's funny? If you think it's funny, that's good enough for me, by the way. I always, like, design for myself in that sense. Like, I'm not trying to do, all right, now here, try to be funny here. [52:28] Tell a joke. You know what I mean? Like if someone, even to comedians, like, hey, make me laugh. [52:33] I bet they struggle. They can't. I don't know. That's not how it works. You can be like, hey, be meaningful. [52:40] Hey, be funny. I can't do that.

So it's more like don't force it. Don't try to do something meaningful here. Just put yourself in a state where you are open to those moments. Instead of looking at a screen, oh, this is an empty state. Hey, empty states are great.