Ep: 224 - Brian Armstrong vs. Bryan Johnson, RFK + Kid Rock, MrBeast's Business Breakdown, Big Fundraising from Thrive and Dragonfly, Special Guest Jose Mejia on "taste discourse", Girl Scout Cookies Business Breakdown, OpenClaw

[00:00] Mama, maybe mash my M&Ms. [00:02] Are we good on audio? [00:03] Good, good, good. [00:05] East Denver for Republicans. Yeah. So sent a newsletter this morning with the subject line, "Eath Denver for Republicans." [00:13] Really thought I was going to get some more... It's early. It's early. Some more hype for that. We're just getting started here on this day, Wednesday, and people are waking up. They're checking their inbox. They're not ready for that type of riz coming in on the phone so quickly. What is East Denver for Republicans? So there's a gathering today in Mar-a-Lago.

[00:34] Florida. [00:36] oh i'm familiar i know i'm just thinking like not mara lago rewind start over cut rewind you're wondering how i got here no i am curious how close is it to very close [00:50] very close okay yeah it's like the difference between uh maybe where your mom's farm is and [00:55] Woodstock. Very close. Okay. [00:58] like traffic will, I mean, it's not... [01:01] - 'Cause Mar-a-Lago's in like Boca Raton, right? You tell me. - Yeah, it's in Boca. Well, no, it's actually in like West, like Palm Beach-ish area, I think.

- Okay. - So it's not that close. I guess it's like 40 minutes, 45 minutes. - Okay. - From where I grew up. - Okay. - But like, Mar-a-Lago's very much like a thing. It's always been like a thing. - Yeah. - Totally. [01:18] It's a thing today as well. There is some sort of gathering for World Liberty Financial, a summit, a conference. For those who are unfamiliar, World Liberty Financial is the... [01:30] Trump, [01:31] crypto project, Trump family crypto project. And there's a token associated with it. It's, it just had a, and you reported on their event that's happening there today.

Yeah. So there's a summit and we see this often in crypto every day, every week. Yeah, certainly. Which is, yeah, some project puts together a summit a day thing. We go to a lot of them and it's, [01:54] this is World Liberty Financials Day. [01:56] Today is Ash Wednesday. This Ash Wednesday. [02:01] And... [02:03] there are some [02:04] Funny folks. Characters. Headed there. You had a very funny newsletter. For those who do not know, maybe we can actually... [02:10] if it's there, if it's close, put up the QR code to subscribe to the newsletter.

So you too, [02:16] can get the type of emails that say ETH Denver for Republicans in your inbox? Nikki Mnage is headed there. You've referred to her as what'd you say? A conservative thought leader. Let me just pull up the agenda actually because I think it's conservative thought leader. Also this incredible live stream that you're witnessing here today is brought to you by our amazing partners Octant [02:46] This time together is made possible by them. [02:49] We love them. [02:50] There it is. There's the world liberty form and then we'll get an octant logo up here.

[02:56] as well. [02:57] So anyway, just kind of a funny thing that's happening today. Brian Armstrong's going. Brian Armstrong. A couple senators are going. Brian Armstrong, CEO of Coinbase, the president of FIFA... [03:09] Which FIFA... [03:10] is just mired in scandal, I think, corruption scandal. Oh, FIFA, yeah. So I feel like that, I don't know, like, brand-wise. Meeting of the minds there. And then... [03:21] Kevin O'Leary. I'm not a big Shark Tank person, but I understand he's a he's Shark Tank, right? He's Shark Tank. And he's also he was also Marty Supreme.

[03:29] Oh, was he? Yeah. He had quite a role in Marty Supreme. Okay. And so he's kind of having a moment. Okay. I see. Yeah. They cast him perhaps for that, on the back of that appearance. And, yeah, no, actually... [03:41] There's speculation that part of why he was in Marty Supreme was to, but clearly he doesn't give a fuck, distance himself from Trump, like to rebrand himself in Hollywood with the Hollywood elite. Well, he took one step backwards. Yeah, two steps forward, one step backward. [03:56] Anyway, so that's what's happening.

[03:59] of course it's happening at the same time as eath denver which for those who don't know eath denver is i'd say probably the biggest s [04:06] Ethereum conference that happens each year in Denver, high altitude, dry skin, chap lips. Terrible. I've never looked worse than that week. Every year. I'm like, I can't believe I'm here doing this. Yeah. But it's, it is for... [04:22] A lot of folks in the community, especially the US crypto community, it's a real... [04:26] moment in the calendar so lots of people like it. [04:28] We don't have to be such haters about it.

[04:31] Totally. No, we don't need to be haters about it. I have been four years in a row, so I couldn't possibly be that much of a hater. But it didn't happen this year. And I don't know. [04:40] somewhat grateful. [04:42] to be [04:43] Here. [04:44] with you. [04:45] I know. I got to stop touching my mic. [04:47] It's just drooping, you guys, and it constantly does. Maybe I should go a little higher. [04:52] Thank you. [04:52] Okay, great. I can do that. Okay, do you want to hear a funny story about Brian Armstrong?

I was once on a date with a man who worked in crypto. [05:00] And we were chatting and we're talking, whatever. And... [05:04] It was towards the end of the night so that I get a pass for this. But he was like talking. I was like, are you into Trump? Like, are you mega? And he was like... [05:13] "No, butt." And I was like, "Classic Kripcho dude." Like... - That butt is... - Load-bearing butt. [05:20] - Yeah. [05:21] - And also, yeah, like I was like, okay, I'm interested to hear what you're like, basically, [05:27] personal motivations are here apart from your like political beliefs.

And so we started talking about it and he was like, I don't know. And, you know, one day I could see like Brian Armstrong being secretary of the treasury and he's like talking about like that. [05:43] And I was like, Brian Armstrong being secretary of the treasury. And I was like, [05:47] That's a crazy, crazy idea. And he was like, I don't think that's... [05:51] That crazy of an idea. And I was like... [05:55] Did you think he was so good about Brian Johnson? Oh my gosh. I thought he was, in my head, it was Brian Johnson.

Yes, of course. And I was like, of course I know who Brian Armstrong is. Of course he do. Of course I do. Of course he do. But like something about, and I was like, you want to know what that is? Too many Bryans. Too many Bryans brain rot. Too many Bryans and plus brain rot, plus perhaps two glasses of blind. Yeah, three Negronis. [06:17] Anyway, I just remember being like, [06:20] Oh, right. And I was like, the erection guy? And he was like, what? And I was like, oh, oh, Armstrong, Armstrong, Armstrong.

Anyway, so now every time... [06:30] every time brian armstrong comes up which is a lot in our circles [06:35] I'm brought back to that moment. Totally. Fair. That's fair. I will say, like, it's funny, ha-ha, as a joke, but, like, with the video that RFK put out yesterday, Brian Johnson actually holding some sort of position in the government [06:49] It would not be a stretch. No. It would not be a stretch. Wellness guru, lifestyle coach. Should we pull up the video of... [06:59] The fever dream? Which one is it? RFK.

It's RFK and I was like RFK Brad Johnson. [07:05] - No. - Yes. - RFK and Kid Rock. - Yeah. [07:09] We can, I don't know if we can bring up the video, but we can certainly tell folks about it. Okay, so for those who are unfamiliar... [07:17] RFK. Yeah. Secretary of Health. What's his title? Health and Human Services. No, he's not. Make America healthy again. Yeah, he's the food guy. He's the agriculture position. Yeah, he's the one who did the food pyramid with Brian Chesky recently. But honestly, the food pyramid was pretty good.

So I hate to say that, but like the website was sleek and they did a great job. I love a contrarian take. It wasn't Brian Chesky. It was Brian Chesky. [07:42] No, it was the third guy at Airbnb who was the designer, who's not Brian Chesky. Oh, it wasn't Brian Chesky? I don't think it was Brian Chesky. [07:49] I don't know. Who knows anymore? Who gives a fuck? Anyway. Okay. [07:53] Hello. [07:53] - Let us know. Him, RFK, Kid Rock, did a video. - Yes. - In which what can only be described as a homoerotic fever dream, of them shirtless, [08:06] Working out.

[08:07] Cold plunging. Cold plunging. Sauna. [08:10] Lifting weights for some reason when RFK is getting into a... [08:16] Cold plunge. He's wearing jeans. [08:19] Unexplainably. He did not want to show off those legs. He was like, and there was, did you ever watch Arrested Development? A couple of times. Okay. There's a character, but it's not, [08:29] Oh my gosh. I can't remember. Buster. [08:31] What's his name? [08:32] Interested Development, did you guys watch me? [08:34] that murder [08:34] David Cross's character? David Cross's character. Yeah. He was never nude. So he would always wear jean cutoffs.

He would never take them off. Yeah. And so there was a lot of comparison on Twitter of like, oh, and one of the jokes that he has is that there's hundreds of them. He was like, there's hundreds of us never nudes. And so I saw a really funny tweet that there was like, there's hundreds of us. [08:54] and anyway um crazy stuff them like the republican party going so hard in the paint for kid rock is unexplainable yeah we were talking about this before we started rolling film here which was that they need to reach for another guy stretch an arm wait there's well the vons right there the von is right there's right there i'm sure seems available for anything at this point totally

[09:24] - The two brothers. [09:25] The Paul brothers are right there. Oh my God. That really could have gotten them totally into a different demographic as well. [09:30] What do you think Mr. Beast's political... [09:33] I think he's keeping it... Very quiet. Yeah. Smart. I think he's not going to... I don't think Jimmy's going to tell you who he voted for in the last... Who's dead name. His dead name. [09:45] Anyway, I will just say on the note about Kid Rock, I live in Nashville. As you know, there is... [09:52] Kid Rock's big honky tonk experience.

There's a big Kid Rock multi-level. - Honestly, they could just walk down Broadway, [10:00] Every experiential restaurant, [10:03] Totally. Miranda Lambert. I don't know. That's maybe not Miranda Lambert. Oh, yeah. Miranda Lambert, potentially. What's the other one? The big one, Bobby Flay? Bobby Flay does not have a Nashville experience. There's... [10:16] The guy every the Sirius XM radio guy that everybody loves. I actually don't know if he's a Republican. [10:21] Come on, you guys. Country. Big country. He's only found... [10:26] Yes, he's only found on SiriusXM. [10:29] shelter. [10:30] potentially.

Blake Shelton has a, I think he has a restaurant on Broadway in Nashville. [10:34] Name some other country stars. [10:36] uh [10:37] Brad, please. [10:38] Brad Paisley. [10:40] Kenny Chesney does not. Luke Bryan. There's one that's like three names. Anyway. [10:45] Garth Brooks is who I was thinking of. I don't think Garth Brooks. I don't think Garth is. I would... [10:52] I don't think, I think Garst is saying it. Anyway, Republican Party. [10:57] Faith's on the right side of history here. Anyway, give us a call. We'll help you. We'll help you, Souris.

We are neutral. I will say one thing is that there was an ice storm in Nashville a couple weeks ago. [11:09] there i had to be downtown in a hotel we lost power was the whole thing but [11:13] the only restaurant that was still open. [11:16] and serving food. Kid Rock. Was Kid Rock. Honky tonk experience. And people were in there getting... [11:21] wasted and it was just... [11:24] Having a good time. Yeah. Having a great time. [11:26] Having not following the food pyramid. Okay. So quick shout out to Octant before we get too deep in here.

Kate works so hard. Kate just slaving over there. Quick shout out to Kate. Working so hard. [11:37] Here we go. Our supporting sponsor, Octant, well known in Ethereum circles for its tireless contribution to the Ethereum ecosystem through research and millions of dollars in grants and public goods funding. [11:51] 2026 is their product era. Octant is now laser focused on vaults, which enables orgs and communities to build sustainable funding systems through these yield generating products, direct your yield towards your own orgs runway or funnel it to broader ecosystem efforts. It's all fair game with Octant's new institutional grade vaults.

[12:12] earn, allocate, and grow Ethereum with DeFi. And some exciting news today, actually, is Octon's [12:19] official migration day. So I think probably quite a stressful day for them, but very exciting. All Octant users now get to experience their new app. If you visit their @OctantApp on X to learn more. [12:32] And we love you, Octant. We love you, Octant. I think one of the things that I love about Octant is the product that they have today came out of... [12:40] a need that they had and then it worked so well for them that they were like, "This is a product other people need."

Yeah. And I feel like those are always the best products. Yeah. When you, when it's coming from a true place. Totally. And also a very thoughtful team. Very thoughtful team. Very thoughtful team. We love them. Okay. Should we discuss, there's a lot we could talk about. There's a lot happening on the timeline. I think we could talk about Mr. Beast. Let's talk about Mr. Beast. Okay. So, for some reason, [13:06] the the deal book new york times deal book uh extravaganza which happened in december i believe so [13:12] There's a clip of Mr.

Beast and the CEO of... [13:16] Of Mr. Beast. Of Beast Industries. Of Beast Industries were on... [13:22] a panel and for some reason this clip is going around town right now honestly less than that [13:26] - A lesson in that. - Lesson in that. You never know. You never know when that clip's gonna travel. [13:30] Terrifying, honestly. [13:32] And the CEO, I forget, I don't know his name. I wish I did. It's talking about sort of the makeup of their business, where there are, what the revenue generators are, what the...

[13:41] sort of breakdown and pie of the various projects [13:46] and like business revenue streamlines come from. And so he was saying 50% of their revenue comes from YouTube, TikTok, [13:55] streaming, or not streaming, reels, all of that revenue. And his show. And his Netflix show, Mr. Beast Games. Yes, Beast Games. Beast Games. Yeah. Okay. And 50% comes from that. The other 50% comes out of either like, [14:11] products, toys, [14:13] consumables, lunchables, and an action figure, which I... [14:19] The number one, he said the number one selling action figure.

Yeah. You want to know what I think that represents? People don't buy action figures anymore. Oof. I just think, I don't know. Who's buying the Mr. Beast action figure? Literally. Because also when you start to watch Mr. Beast, you're too old for action figures. So I don't, at least that's the experience with my kids. I don't know. I don't know what's happening in the action figure market these days. I don't think it's as big as it once was. Dare I say. Dare you say. Yeah. And then the last part was like a platform that they are building that is essentially [14:49] or [14:51] And YouTubers, very high-end YouTubers and Fortune 1000 companies to basically matchmake.

Matchmake, yeah. Which both of you and I thought felt like a really small business. And then Kate was like, you guys are so dumb. That's for like the big YouTube stars who are making millions and millions and millions. And they're just taking a cut of that. So I think that was a good shout out by Kate. Interesting. But personally, it feels like a little bit of a distraction to these other two big... [15:15] But anyway, that's not my business. I also feel like people have tried and failed to do that so many times.

Yeah. Like an influencer marketplace. I've never seen it work, but if there were anybody to figure it out, I'm sure it's him. Did you see him on Hot Ones? Hot Wings? I did not see him on Hot Ones. I only saw the... [15:31] clips I think that's how you I don't think anyone watches the full hot ones episode although I don't know maybe Kate does once or twice but you have I have oh okay how long are they to say like 15 20 oh okay they're short it's not like an hour long no no no no I'm watching um I don't know Channing Tatum eating wings for an hour like check wellness check no I watched uh I can't remember the there's a few that I've watched that have been good anyway whatever I saw I'm sorry I didn't mean to judge

[16:01] I genuinely didn't, I don't know. - It's totally all good. [16:05] But just, I don't watch any Mr. Beast. I know, like, I should if I'm going to be working in media, but, like, it's just genuinely not for me. He... [16:15] is riz-less. Like, I've actually very rarely seen someone who lacks riz to this degree. Like, it's crazy. Yeah. And just, I think... [16:25] I wouldn't... It's juxtaposed against... [16:28] how big of a star he is. - His fame, yeah. Yeah. - And I feel like my exposure to, [16:33] being 33.

[16:35] who I have seen who is famous are people with star power. Unbelievable riz. Like, they've made a living off of it. And so to see someone who is very famous, a celebrity, too many... [16:48] with absolutely just... [16:50] like flatlining yeah it's really shocking well i think like that could be a product of him [16:57] Like his fame is almost, he engineered the algorithm to... [17:03] work in his favor. Like he, he backed, he, he reverse engineered a successful show based on [17:10] what would go viral. And that was like these game show and giveaway types things.

And like, I'll put fit 1000 cars in a stadium and see who can get out for like those types of competitions. And so, [17:20] - It's not about him. - It's less about him, more than it is about, like, these concepts that he... [17:26] engineered to perform on YouTube. And that's not to take away, like, that's, [17:31] genius in many ways. But yeah, I don't think it's him. Honestly, what I was struck by is exactly what you're saying. Like, oh, that he is... [17:39] an unbelievable business mind if he has this little charisma and has made [17:45] this big of a business.

Totally. There's this thing, a tweet that went out recently that was about how he doesn't, like one of the weird things about him is that when he smiles, [17:55] His eye, he doesn't smile with his eyes. Like his smile ends here. And that's like part of what makes him like kind of weird to look at. Because when he's smiling, he's not like, it's not a full face. There's no light in his eye. Yeah, it's not a full face smile. It's, um... [18:06] Tyra Banks. Yeah. No, he needs it. He needs some spice.

Have you seen all the... I have. What's going on there? There's a new documentary series out about... [18:16] exposing basically... [18:18] Okay, we'll have Kate on later to talk about it. There's a lot to say. Great. Anyway, Jimmy, Mr. Beast, I do think that this is... He's trying to grow up something around this business and going to DealBook instead of VidCon or some of these other more YouTuber, creator-centric places felt like an intentional move. Yeah. He's a serious man. He's trying. Yeah, yeah. Even him going on Hot Wings. He's branching out, which I think is also a product of I saw some news about...

[18:46] decline of [18:48] his YouTube views. Yeah. And that that's suffering and... [18:52] all these other endeavors and other revenue streams for his business are requiring more attention. Because I'm sure that that pie, the equation of that pie is going to change over time. Yeah. Well, he just acquired Step, which is a Gen Z banking app. We wrote a newsletter last week. [19:10] and has a banking license, I think. [19:12] through some sort of [19:14] through that or through, or at least applied for a patent to be working in financial services, not a banking license.

Oh, they actually talked about that very briefly on the DealBook interview. [19:25] and also beast mobile uh wireless phone service leveraging mr beast's audience so mobile [19:32] financial services, [19:34] and i don't know i don't know if he can thread the needle to these other people to trust him with his with their money totally [19:41] But... [19:43] Maybe. Maybe. Okay. Should we hit on one other story before we bring up our guest? Yes. I have a lot of- We hit Kid Rock. That's done. Lots of money being raised? Yes. [19:53] There's some, this is a short hit, but two big things.

[19:58] funds, [20:00] announced raises yesterday or Tuesday or Monday. [20:03] Thrive Capital. [20:05] Jared Kushner's. [20:08] Fund, 10th fund, $10 billion. [20:11] That's... [20:12] A lot of money. And they have backed... [20:16] the [20:16] - The best, the best, the brightest over there. - Yeah. SpaceX, OpenAI, Stripe. [20:21] Skims. [20:22] Huge. Wow. Yeah. So anyway, and a bunch of others, but their sort of thesis as a fund has been that they are very loyal. So when they invest in a particular company, [20:33] founder business that they're sort of like a ride or die mentality where they don't back rivals essentially okay i honestly think that that should be for everyone i don't think if you're a venture fund you should be able to back rivals totally i also think that it means that because they're sort of have this category not exclusivity but like thoughtfulness that it means that if those businesses are doing well they're they're like always going to follow along for their next raise

[21:03] It's a sexy place to be. I see. I said this before we started filming, but I do want to get it on camera that I do think that Ivanka is going to be running [21:11] in 2028 and I think that I'm going to put some money [21:15] on the market. Behind it. [21:17] - Wow. - Today. - Today? - Today, yeah. Because right now her odds are at like 1%. - Oh. - So I actually would-- - Get in now. - Get in now. Yeah, I mean, I don't want everyone to get in.

Wait, I'm actually-- - Nevermind. [21:30] - But the reason is because she put up this, [21:32] -post yesterday for Chinese New Year, [21:35] That was her like in a suit and it was talking about how... [21:39] New beginnings, exciting momentum. [21:42] And I was like, here it is. Presidential. We're starting. Yeah. A presidential moment for her. And she was like looking up to the right. I mean, if she does. [21:52] Yeah, whatever. Anyway, next fund that announced Dragonfly... [21:57] Crypto fund, $650 million. I can't believe that. Fourth fund. I can't either.

I cannot believe that. Me neither. [22:03] Crazy. And the headline from, I believe it was Fortune. Did they pivot to AI or is it still? No. Crypto venture firm Dragonfly closed a $650 million fourth fund, even as blockchain VCs face mass extinction. That was the Fortune headline. It's their fourth fund. And... [22:20] -Hasib, who's like the guy. -Hasib. -Hasib. -Hasib. [22:24] The guy at Dragonfly. I mean, there's four of them, four men. And they, he went on TVPN, talked about sort of their thesis and essentially was like, [22:34] the thesis that we all have come to know and love for crypto these days.

Let me guess. Go for it. Stable coins and enterprise institutional? [22:43] Yes, and. Okay. Basically saying that all of these bots... [22:48] Oh, the financial future is in in automation and in yeah, in those payments. [22:54] Crypto is going to be their native payment platforms. And that design... He said that crypto is designed for machines more than it was designed for humans. I believe that. And actually, I do want to bring Jose up, our guest. But there is one thing that I saw on the timeline this morning to that point, which was...

[23:11] about an open-claw... [23:15] plug in something to do [23:18] or maybe it actually wasn't related to EvanClaw, but basically someone has built a... [23:25] - Asian mechanism. - Oh, yeah. Okay. [23:28] So the issue with like using OpenClaw and all these agents is that, [23:32] It's a little bit like your relationship to when you go to the doctor and you have no idea how much it's going to cost. Yeah. You know, like you go to, you go get a procedure done. You're like, I have no idea. Like some bill will show up a couple weeks.

And you're like, how much is it going to be? And they're like, we don't know. Oh, they have no idea. They have no idea. They're totally removed from that. They're like, actually, could you never ask me that? Yeah. That's kind of been my experience with working with our OpenClaw team. [23:52] related to the token usage and like how much it costs because it's like I you just it's hard [23:58] You just don't know like how much, how many tokens you're using. Like I can go back into the cloud backend and check it and make sure we're not like spending thousands of dollars on the stupid things that we're asking our...

[24:09] open cloud, but it is a little bit like [24:11] - Totally. I saw this tweet the other day of this founder, [24:15] This woman who said... [24:17] We have a user who, it was like an early stage AI tool, [24:22] I... [24:23] product. And she was like, we have a user who's on a $49 a month plan who just racked up like a $5,000 bill for us. Yeah. Like that, that... [24:33] That is totally possible and terrifying. And... [24:38] Anyway, so like that's really on my mind is just like token usage and cost.

Anyway, this guy put out this tweet yesterday or the day before that was about, [24:45] he built an agent that... [24:49] It has to fund itself. [24:51] Yes, I saw that. And it can create a wallet and generates revenue to basically pay for its own compute. And as soon as it's able to do that, like it's able to keep... [25:02] working and keep like spinning up your regions, I think. Incredible. Which is crazy. Guys, I wonder, we might need to open that door just as a... [25:09] Is Jose here? [25:10] He's here.

Oh, he's back there. Yeah. Oh, I thought you were trapped in the vestibule. And I was like, poor guy. Sorry. No worries. Great. Great. Uh, should we bring Jose up? Before we do that. [25:26] Anchorage. [25:28] Digital. Jose, you can come on up as we talk about Anchorage. Our other partner whom we love very much is... [25:37] is Anchorage Digital. And this episode is brought to you by Anchorage Digital. Founders and protocol builders stressing about your TGE, you need to get in touch with them. They're the first federally regulated crypto bank in the US, which means they can offer crypto startups and other disruptors actually reliable USD banking services without the usual headaches.

They're a one-stop shop that can support you end-to-end on everything from minting and distribution to treasury management. [26:06] They also just raised $100 million strategic investment from Tether last week, yet another big flex since they already custody for the big boys like Goldman Sachs, BlackRock, A16Z, and Visa. So protocol founders, TGE with confidence, and Launch with the support that's helped some of the biggest and most complex businesses in the world go to market. Visit com to learn more. We love you, Anchorage Digital. They are great and very, very good. [26:35] legitimate yes okay jose come on down [26:40] We have some very fun things to talk about with you today.

It's gonna be great. How's it going? [26:44] This is. [26:45] Well, it depends on where I'm going. Okay. But it's always an everything bagel. Okay. Absolutely. There's no other option for me. I'm not a scooper. No, I like as much bread as possible. This is how I know that you're a good person. Thank you. A scooper is like, [27:02] - Yeah, you have problems. - Problems. That's too much. - Why are you denying yourself something good? - Yeah. And it's too much dairy. Like, why are you filling that thing up with cream cheese?

- Oh, interesting. - Absolutely. - It brings the ratios off. - Ratios way off. Okay. My ideal situation is that there's some sort of a chive cream cheese. - Yes. - And some sort of fish. Usually like a smoked salmon of some kind, a red onion tomato. [27:25] And hot sauce, of course. [27:27] I'm not a monster. Thank you. Egg and cheese. Oh, great. Yeah. I do have a question. Don't you feel sometimes it's dry? Yes. With a bagel. Do you do? A little ketchup. I know you don't like ketchup.

Okay. I'll do a little bit of ketchup and have a great time. Okay, great. What about you? [27:41] Same as hers basically. It's chive cream cheese always, some kind of smoked fish, a little bit of onion and one slice of tomato. Nice. Toasted? Oh, nice. Ideally you get there and have the experience I had where the guy's like, I know this guy's a good guy. Totally. We just got these out of the oven. But otherwise, like a light toast. Light toast. You don't want it to hurt your mouth, you know?

No, I don't want to eat it like a hockey ball. I think the tomato is controversial because often it's a… Well, because tomatoes are mostly bad and bioengineered garbage, but yes. Exactly. [28:11] - I just want like a little wet slice of something in there. - Exactly. Are you biting or are you open face? [28:18] that depends on the place uh-huh if it's a good bagel it's not like one of those weird massive oversized bagels so you go for a straight bite okay i will take off the top half and eat it open face okay classy um okay what are we talking about with jose we're talking about two things this is jose from scene infrastructure company [28:36] We love seeing infrastructure.

We've worked with them for many of our [28:40] Very fun events. And we're talking about... [28:44] to [28:45] Crazy, crazy things. Logan Paul. [28:48] And... [28:50] taste discourse taste paul here's the thing we've avoided it on this podcast we really have so far yeah i so i'm the sacrificial lamb that you brought on to finally jump into this terrible terrible discourse great okay but do we want to start with logan paul do we want to start with taste we got to start with logan paul okay great um do you want to tell us what happened this week or i can either way you go for it okay so logan paul famous youtuber again not somebody that

[29:17] He's not for me at all. He sold a Pokemon card. [29:23] it seems live on some sort of streaming situation for 16.5 million dollars. It was a Pikachu [29:33] Pokemon card and the like most expensive trading card on record, I believe. Of all time. Of all time. He had Guinness in like in the room. Ready to go. Certifying it like right away. It was very orchestrated. Okay. Okay. The buyer. [29:49] of said card. [29:50] Do you want to take this one? AJ Scaramucci, who's the son of Anthony Scaramucci. Real outstanding guy.

[29:57] Which is such a strange... [30:00] detail. Very weird. In this story, but AJ Scaramucci, I guess, is a venture capitalist. And I guess this is [30:06] part of some sort of venture. [30:08] He called it the first acquisition of a planned planetary treasure hunt, in quotes. Okay, I do. I did hear a hot... Maybe it's not that hot of a take, but I did hear a take last night from a person I really respect that said... [30:20] archetypes, no, artifacts, artifacts and physical goods, art, art, [30:28] that that is just going to, in the age of AI, just continue to increase in value exponentially over the next few years.

So I guess maybe that this falls into that thesis, but... [30:40] Not like anyone's ever used those things for like money laundering or scans of cash, right? That's a thing that people would never do. Never even think to do. No, never. I do want to just say, just to give folks the sense of the scale for this as an industry, the global Pokemon trading card game market is estimated at $10 to $12 billion annually. [31:01] And that's not, they're bigger than sports card, biggest segment of the trading card collectibles market.

[31:08] And that's, yeah, that's not the resale. Is that resale? - So, Pokemon cards or Thrive Fun 10, basically. - Yeah. - Okay, but there is some controversy with what happened. Do you want to tell us about the controversy? - Yeah, I mean, I hate that I know this stuff, but back in the day, I think when he first bought the card, he paid, I think, [31:29] around four or five million, something like that. And then proceeded to attempt to tokenize fractionalized shares. It was 2021. That's what we did during those times.

I mean, I guess. It's just interesting. I think that was the second platform. I don't remember if it was CryptoZoo was his first failed crypto project. That was an NFT project, right? It was meant to be like a game that you played and the NFTs were your characters. In the metaverse, naturally. Exactly. But he sold, he attempted to sell 51% [31:59] 5.4% for some reason. Okay, okay. And then the site went down mysteriously after a period of time, so people couldn't even see that they had access to the shares of the card.

Okay. Oh, okay. And from what I remember, there was a… It wasn't on the block? [32:12] -Change? -I don't know. -Canadian lawsuit, which didn't name him. They named the owners of the site. [32:18] He claimed that he had no idea how the site went away or what happened to it. Okay. And then I remember him basically saying that he bought back the shares. Yes. I saw that. Which I don't really understand. We couldn't get a fact check on that. I couldn't get, so that's the thing. I was doing a little bit of like reading about this stuff when I first saw it and I couldn't see anywhere that proved.

Yeah. That he actually made investors whole. Totally. So it's just like this like weird slop tokenization thing where it's like, yeah, it's tokenized and yeah, you own it, but no, you don't. It's mine and I'm going to resell it. [32:48] - Yeah, also I could see there being like some fine print where it was like, we tokenized the digital asset version of it and not the actual card. - Right, exactly. - Not the card. - Sure. - And that being some loophole that sucks that no one [33:01] For the really good people who really thought Logan Paul, I trust them.

[33:07] Yeah, crazy situation. There was so much... [33:11] feelings on the timeline for many a folk who had no skin in the game, actual skin in the game, but feel personally wronged by this story. And then as you get into it, you realize, [33:25] the way that it's being positioned mostly on crypto Twitter is [33:28] somewhat incorrect. Yeah. And that, like, I saw one take that was like, he actually didn't make 16 million dollars from this card. He made 19 million dollars from this card, which I'm like, that's actually fun and not accurate.

But [33:42] Anyway, that's what happened. $16.5 million for a Pokemon card. They're... [33:48] that's wild situation, there are easier ways for... [33:53] What's his name, Ali Scaramucci, to tell us he's a virgin? Ali Scaramucci. Can I actually talk about what bothered me the most about it all? Please. Did y'all see him at the Olympics? [34:04] - No, that's his brother. - Oh, that's his brother. - That's Jake, right? - Okay. - We had to get clarification on that. - We also thought that too. [34:11] My point still stands. The amount of emotion that Logan Paul showed in the video of when, like, the card sold...

- Yes. is commensurate with the amount of emotion that Jake showed when his partner won. - - And I don't know what that says about them as people, but it's really interesting. - It's really interesting. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Like, he was borderline in tears when the Guinness, like, certificate came out. - Yeah, he was so excited. - Yeah. [34:34] Why do I feel like he had his shirt off? No, it was just a sleeveless. Yeah, it was sleeveless. He was in like wrestler mode. Totally. Wow. Okay. I love that as a take.

Should we get into your one-sided Paul Graham beef? Sure. You had a viral tweet. [34:48] I think it counts as viral, right? What's the threshold now? Well, [34:54] One million? [34:56] Okay, well, on the small internet, you went viral. For those who don't know, Paul Graham, technology philosopher and founder of Y Combinator, [35:10] was... [35:11] was responsible for helping businesses like... [35:15] Airbnb, Stripe, Airbnb, Dropbox, I think, are a few. All of them, probably. All of them. In the 2009, 10 era of companies, he was... [35:27] the big dog. Um, and, uh, [35:31] He writes a lot of essays.

Legendary blogger. Yeah. Blog. I will give him that. Yeah. The man blogs. He does. So what happened this week? [35:40] Ugh. [35:41] So actually, I feel you should give it. [35:45] A high-level overview of the taste discourse. I don't even know where to begin. I think so many other people have kind of... [35:52] I mean, number one, it's cyclical, right? Like, this is not the first wave of arguing about the nature of taste that has happened in, like, [35:59] tech and crypto Twitter in recent memory. And it's the thing that people have been arguing about for years.

Like I was really happy to see people surface like Steve Jobs quotes about how Microsoft has no taste. Like this is a constant debate. [36:10] in the world of technology. I think, I don't even think the Paul Graham essay was the catalyst this time around. I don't remember, [36:16] where he came from, but the Paul Graham essay was a response to something else, if I'm not mistaken. Oh, okay. I didn't realize that. And it was him sort of codifying this idea that, you know, taste is really important, and it's the only moat that you're going to have going forward, yada, yada, yada.

It's the same thing that most people are saying on the internet these days in those circles. Yeah. [36:34] I thought was interesting about it. Every personality hire is saying that, me included. Yeah, pretty much. Exactly. [36:40] When he started responding to people engaging with the essay, he made what I think is a fatal flaw. Mm-hmm. And said that clothing doesn't matter. Okay. Clothing is not a component of his vision for what the future of taste looks like in this world in which taste is the only thing that can save you from AI.

Okay. And then he proceeded to post this photo of Einstein. Mm-hmm. [36:59] and saying like, yeah, Einstein just like optimized for comfort. He was just focused on the mission of being a great scientist when I know for a fact, and this is what my response was, is like, [37:08] that exact photo, I've seen it on the internet since like 2007 on men's wear forums. So people being like, yo, Einstein is the most swagged out guy ever. Totally. Where can I find a vintage sweatshirt like this? Like I could see this in a throwing fits [37:20] 100% yeah absolutely.

[37:22] And so I think that the interesting responses I've seen from people like Haaland or Emma Joel Johnson point out that like, [37:29] Number one, taste has always been a part of the discourse in tech, outside of tech. There's no escaping it. It is a part of how you see and interact with the world around you. [37:38] it is not like the finished product. It's not necessarily a skill. I called it a totalizing force, right? It informs everything you do. That was a real banger. People really like that. And I think that folks in tech that are just sort of coming around to the idea of taste as a quality that matters,

[37:54] often try to reduce it down to this like quantifiable measurement of like [37:58] your ability to choose pixels well or your ability to shape the language around a product announcement [38:05] And it's so much deeper than that. I think we're gonna lose a lot of what it means to have taste, to have opinions, to express them cogently, if we just treat it as like this thing that you can learn in a couple of weekends by reading a few books and going to a few museums and like wandering into Ralph Lauren.

Yeah. It actually reminds me, I saw this, there's this video that's going viral of Fran Lebowitz. And she is talking about... [38:30] I can't remember exactly what time period it is. I think she's talking about like the 1950s and some piece of... [38:36] a play that was like really famous during that time. And she was sort of, [38:42] She was saying essentially that part of what made that play so special and what made it so impactful in that period of history was not only the... [38:51] excellence that the writer and the producers and the actors had, but it was also the excellence of the audience.

And that the audience like plays their taste and their contribution to a piece of work or art or experience is... [39:07] part of what makes something elevated and beautiful and timeless. And she was saying, like, we've lost-- [39:14] there's a lot that's been lost in the audience. And it's like sort of this... [39:18] cycle that happens and we get lower and lower and sort of like the quality of what we're producing because of the audience and someone was retweeting it and talking about withering heights and they're like uh case in point which i thought was really funny but i think yeah you're you're sort of speaking that to that too in the taste discourse yeah absolutely it's there's uh

[39:38] dialogue that exists between like the person experiencing the thing, the context within which they're expressing their interest in that thing, who they're expressing it to, right? I can think of scenarios in which like, [39:50] your taste in a particular type of [39:54] sweatshirt or music, like in one context, people don't get it. In another context, people are like, yes, absolutely. And like, those are your people, right? I think there's something about the fact that [40:05] people in tech, especially folks like Paul Graham, not to like single him out specifically, but [40:11] we've spent 15 years building and backing technologies that like shred the [40:17] opacity and like the mystery that's required to like form communities that like, [40:23] produce culture that's net new.

And the idea that all of a sudden now we're going to somehow... [40:29] apply this like really thin veneer of like knowing what looks good, feels good, etc. without preserving what it means to like [40:37] discover what your sense of taste is in a community of people that like it feels safe to do so within is just ridiculous. Yeah. [40:44] Wow. [40:46] Preach. Do you think that tech companies can have taste? [40:52] Like, do you think that... [40:54] - Anthropic has taste? - I think that taste is something that is usually attributable and traceable back to like individuals inside of companies.

[41:04] I don't think that like a company as a whole can have taste, but I think that there's always companies that [41:11] you know, their merch hits a little bit different. Their events are really fun and well-considered. [41:15] And that's usually the result of one or a few people who actually like really care. - Yeah. [41:21] I don't know, I used to work a bit in like the hospitality space and adjacent to it. I think of like, [41:26] Will Goddard's book of unreasonable hospitality and the idea of like going above and beyond to show how much you care about your customers at these restaurants.

And I think that it's the same kind of feeling of [41:37] There's usually people, if you are smart and hire well, that want to go above and beyond to express like, [41:43] this is what this company stands for. This is how we want to show up in the world. These are the feelings that we want people to have when they interact with us. [41:49] And yeah, there are millions of companies that don't have that. But I think it's really usually [41:53] about people and not about some sort of like overarching like [41:57] look or feel that you can construct out of nowhere.

Yeah. Yeah. [42:00] I think what sometimes I... [42:04] annoys me about the taste discourse [42:07] when it comes around is that it sometimes feels like people are like that becomes a proxy for certain [42:14] style or for a certain kind of aesthetic that's actually quite rigid that's [42:20] that I actually don't think reflects what you're speaking to. But I do think that like people have that fill in for like, oh, this thing has taste or it doesn't have taste because it either fits to this aesthetic or doesn't fit to this aesthetic.

And that could be personal style. That can be interior design. That could be the way that a website shows up. But like, to me, I'm like, when I see some of this stuff, I'm like, man, you guys are talking about like a fairly like, [42:45] homogenous aesthetic that like, [42:48] Honestly, like it's [42:50] boring for [42:52] Most people. Most people. And like, I think that that's like what I get annoyed about because I'm like, whatever, like read the Rick Rubin book or not. Like it doesn't like that. That doesn't define you having taste or not.

So that's actually the interesting flip side about this to me. And it brings to mind two things. One is I was having a conversation with my friend Ross, who is an amazing trader, but also like one of the most stylish people I know on the planet. And what he pointed out that I thought was fascinating. And he's like, not... [43:17] following this stuff on Twitter. He just saw Derek Guy retweet me. And he was like, the flip side of this is people who are deeply in like the culture industries who are, you [43:28] I use gatekeeping as a good word.

I need to come up with a better word for people who are doing what you're saying, which is like, [43:33] really strict rules that are like really strongly held opinions that in most cases aren't really informed by what they genuinely care about, but more so what they think is like, [43:43] acceptable or appropriate by the people around them. It's like the Soho house-ification of it. Correct. Yeah. Correct. And it's, yeah. Yeah. It's like, it lacks perspective in my opinion. Right. It's like the beautiful thing about taste is like, I don't know, I made a joke also with someone on Twitter that like, imagine it, the years 2045 and the tech bros finally discover John Waters, right?

Like I can't imagine. Yeah. [44:04] the people who are talking about taste having to figure out camp. That's insane to me. Their brains will melt. [44:09] But I think that what you're saying is really interesting, which is even outside of tech world, just like squarely in fashion or design or art, you do have the sense that there are people who... [44:18] think it's their job to uphold certain like rules around like what's good or not and i don't think that [44:26] a obsessively held strong opinion that isn't informed by your lived experience counts as taste.

Yeah. I also think this is something that you've taught me about taste and [44:37] really about what is cool and, [44:42] One of the things that you have said over and over again, which I think is very true, and I have tried to bring into my life as much as possible, is that like... [44:49] the coolest thing you can be is your truest self. And you can feel it when someone's [44:55] Like when someone's like, man, she's just, or he's just like so cool. And usually almost a hundred percent of the time that's coming from, they are like so self-assured.

Like they are so certain of who they are. And that shows up in all these ways and all these interesting ways because they have unique perspective or they like things that other people don't. And they have some sort of counter-cultural perspective. And that is coming from a place of self-assurance, not from a place of wanting, like searching [45:25] always you can feel. And [45:27] And I think the taste conversation is adjacent to that. And like similar in many ways. I'm curious if you think that taste... [45:35] can and should and currently does [45:39] live [45:40] within [45:42] Cons-- like, capitalism.

[45:44] And like how much capitalism and taste can be... [45:47] You married one. [45:50] Can we just cut to an unlicensed clip of the Cerulean Blue speech from the Timberware's product? Because I think that would just answer that question perfectly. Great. We'll do a cut down on that. No, but I think like that to me was, you know, in the middle of a beautiful, wonderful film, one of the most [46:09] interesting pieces of cultural commentary from that era, which is recognizing the fact that [46:14] capitalism, [46:16] at least in that [46:18] up until that point.

[46:20] Yeah, like people kind of chose stuff for you if you were following current trends and to be tasteful. [46:28] required you to [46:30] search and dig and find interesting things from the past that maybe had fallen out of taste or like not been interesting for a while. Yeah. And repurpose them or reinterpret them. And that that sort of friction [46:42] is what A, like leads you to developing your sense of taste, like, oh, I like [46:47] I don't know, drain pipe pants instead of like flares, right? Like, cool. Great.

[46:52] Wear them, rock them, like be the self-assured you that you are in them. [46:55] I think what's happened and what is happening... [46:58] and God forgive me, I'm working on an essay about this, is [47:02] Everyone's obsessed with markets. [47:05] to a point that I think is becoming detrimental. And this idea that markets are perfect arbiters of truth [47:11] I think is like we're at a tipping point where [47:14] pricing things too soon and trying to sort of like monetize ideas before they've had a chance to gestate [47:22] is like the final death knell of our ability to produce anything interesting culturally.

Things need time to kind of like [47:29] be weird and difficult to find and you have to like work your way to like understand what the thing is and I think that like [47:37] if we don't build [47:39] tools [47:41] plug that allow that to happen, like the internet and real life are both going to collapse into this weird world in which everything is like, [47:51] this weird flash in the pan meme that like explodes. And yeah, some people make money off of it. And then it just dies as quickly as it arrived.

Yeah. When you said you need to give things time to... [48:02] Marinate. [48:03] The first thing and person that came to mind, which I think, I don't know why, and I think is incorrect, but I'm curious your take, was Addison Rae. [48:11] - Absolutely. - Okay. - Perfect example. - Okay. - Yeah. - Okay. - Hell yeah. - And I like, I watched her, I have such a weird relationship with Addison Rae and her stuff and, [48:22] Wait, go deeper really quick. What's your take? Okay, well, like, there's moments where I'm like, this is so contrived.

I can't with this. Like, it's so... [48:29] And then there's moments where I'm like, oh, is that the joke? Like, is it actually one step beyond that where it's like, yeah, obviously all of this is contrived. And so like, and so then I kind of like her and but I go back and forth and I think she as a. [48:44] person and the things that she's willing to do, I respect, like, so much. And I think she's really... [48:50] she has to have a sense of humor, a good sense of humor.

- She's fully in on the joke. - Exactly. She's, I mean, I've seen interviews with her where it's very clear that like, [48:57] it being contrived as the point. - Yeah. - I think it was on Chicken Shop Date where she talked about how, like, what if people just tried? - Yeah. - And what was interesting about her rise is that, like, [49:08] we saw her go from this thing that was like, oh yeah, it's like an influencer. And then like the uncanny valley of her going from like a girl who dances to a girl who's in like, [49:19] bad remakes of movies from our childhoods to pop star like we bore witness to all of that [49:26] And I think that it can be easy to lose sight of the fact that [49:30] I think for the most part she's pulled it off.

Yeah. And getting to see someone do that is probably what it felt like to watch someone [49:38] program a beat on an 808 in like 1987 or watching like, [49:43] I don't know. [49:45] the guys from Joy Division after Ian Curtis died, like, become a part of, like, New Wave, right? As a genre. And those things aren't often revealed to you unless you're, like, localized to the scene that's creating that culture. Yeah. What's more interesting to me is figuring out, like, how do you get more Addison Rays across, like, every vertical possible?

What tools do they need in order to, like, contrive/build the world that they're trying to invite us into? [50:10] And how do you kind of undo a little bit of like the past 10 years of like, [50:14] if you see the effort, it must not be good, which I think is something that's been kind of baked into culture for a while now. Yeah. Are you building something that you're... [50:21] I don't know, maybe. It sounded like we were leading up to a pitch. I'm not here to pitch yet. I respect that.

I'm here to yap. I respect that. Okay, we're coming up on time, but I didn't prep... [50:35] be with this question or this thought, but I am curious your take on [50:38] the end of jobs. [50:41] Let's go. What are your thoughts? What do you think we're, we should all be doing here? You just accidentally set me up for a pitch and I don't like that. Great, great. I want to hear it. I want to hear it. I think that there's a few people who have this thesis and I think we're all working towards a similar future.

And I think that, [50:58] I talk about this a ton with folks, but I think that at the end of the day, if AI eats the value of most things that are digital, [51:05] The things that will matter are [51:08] A, things that are driven by real people, real personalities, maybe the T word that we just talked about. Mm-hmm. [51:14] But I think also provably like [51:18] lived experiences are important. I think that in the future more and more people will wake up in the morning, drink coffee, and like believe themselves to be some kind of like experience creator or event producer or gatherer of people, whether it's like a run club or like [51:33] classes sharing things that you know like i think that [51:36] Building a tool that allows those people to run their businesses effectively is kind of what we're aiming to do at SIC.

But more broadly speaking, I think what's also interesting is like, [51:48] there hasn't ever been a technology we've invented that doesn't create more and new different jobs [51:55] even as it's destroying whatever the jobs that it destroys are. [51:59] And so what I think is also interesting is wondering about like, [52:03] what weird thing is someone going to make a living doing that is...