40: Charles Broskoski - Everything is Personal

[00:00] I think the hardest thing is like basically knowing yourself. You have to sort of like get to that place first before you can make decisions that are correct. Being creative is about problem solving. Understanding one's own perspective is about finding a way to sort of like put those puzzle pieces together. You're looking at something from this direction. You're looking at something from that direction. Like what's the crossover and how do you sort of like draw something out from those two? I really stand behind that idea that it's just about decision making, [00:30] an artist is like, it's like about making decisions.

That's all it is. You can do infinite things. You have to decide what you're going to do. When someone says taste is a skill, that is annoying because you're talking about something that is personal. It's something that you develop over a long period of time. And I just think taste is synonymous with understanding of one's own self. When you talk about it like a skill, then you put it in this sort of like arena of like competition, you know, consider the possibility that working with your friends on [01:00] is like the most luxurious possible thing that you can do.

The reward is the work that you get to hang out with your friends and make something cool. I have like very distinct memories of being in class, looking at a textbook, like having to be in a certain chapter and just like flipping ahead to a different chapter that I knew would not be covered just because it's like, what's over here? And I think it's part rebellion, but part just like being interested. [01:22] Welcome to Dialectic Episode 40 with Charles Braskowski. Charles is the founder of Arena, which he spent the last near 15 years building alongside a number of collaborators and co-founders.

Arena is a platform for [01:37] many things, and it's described in many ways, but I think the best and most useful would be a tool for self-directed education. Arena is a place where you can find, discover, connect, explore, and archive your ideas, mix-match them with everyone else's, and it leads to a kind of curiosity and intentionality around attention and the patterns that we find across the things that [02:07] his philosophy behind this kind of education, what goes into what he calls nodal points or the things that change us, the things we discover, whether it be art, information, whatever, that inflect us over the course of our lives and why it's so important to give a deep, open perspective.

[02:26] careful attention to those things. We also talk about his and the team's philosophy for building tools and building arena and what it's like to build a platform when it feels more like gardening than architecture. [02:37] Charles's most important idea when it comes to nodal points is that the radar, the through lines, the connections between us and the things we care about are, in fact, who we are, that our identity is made up of that radar. And so it's actually far less important what these things are so much as it is what we see in them, what we connect to in them.

[02:59] I think this is an amazing way to think about both authenticity, which is a complicated term and idea, as well as taste, which is another complicated term in the zeitgeist. And yet I think Charles's earnest approach to attention and the deep care that goes into it is clearly represented in arena and in how he approaches his writing and discovery and creativity. [03:22] Finally, we also talk about building independent businesses online, and specifically Charles' approach to building what he calls personal businesses, heavily inspired by the classic film. [03:34] You've got mail.

Charles believes that whatever you build should, in fact, be deeply personal. [03:40] Whether you're an arena lover or not, I hope this conversation inspires you to have a more open conversation. [03:47] intentional, careful attention, to look to be surprised, to look to find connections across the ideas and the notable points for you, and ultimately to make things based on those inspirations. Before we get into the episode, I'd like to thank Notion. Notion is a creative tool for your life's work. [04:05] that teams big and small use to collaborate, [04:08] get leverage from AI and agents, and ultimately turn their ideas into action.

Notion natively integrates AI and agents into the place where you actually do your work, all of your contacts, your documents, your databases, whatever it might be, and lets you get leverage on top of them thanks to AI. [04:26] What I like about Notion's approach to AI is that they're not trying to automate the important work, the work that deserves your deep attention. In fact, their hope is that by giving you more leverage, you can focus on them even more deeply. I use Notion to prepare for, synthesize, look for patterns across all of my interviews and conversations with Dialectic, both as I'm scavenging for knowledge.

[04:48] scraps and bits and clues, or as Charles might call them, nodal points ahead of the conversations and afterwards as I try to pull out the most important ideas and lessons. If you don't use Notion or haven't tried it in a while, you can check it out at com slash dialectic. And I hope you are inspired to gather your ideas there, look for interesting tidbits and patterns, and ultimately to make things. If you do, I hope you share them with me. If you enjoyed this episode, [05:18] ours on Spotify, rate it, review it wherever you're listening or watching.

And with that, here is my conversation with Charles Briskowski. [05:26] Charles Briskowski, thanks for coming. Thanks for having me. Did I get that right? Briskowski? Briskowski, yeah. a. Cab. It seems like you're Cab to almost everyone. Yeah, Cab is like a nickname I've had my whole life, but it doesn't make sense to say Cab Briskowski because it's my initials. It's like a PHP. Yeah, well, we ATM machine, we do it all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to start with a couple of quotes that are... [05:55] technically about writing, but I think they apply to much of what you are interested in.

The first is from Arena. [06:02] I think... [06:03] curated by you, but at the very least, it's in the channel philosophy channel. [06:07] And it's, uh, Lara Palmquist, uh, via Nico Chilla. She says, one of the writers essential duties is to gather, uh, [06:15] to filter and weave fragments, to refract perspectives and form new points of contact. The reader, in turn, acts the widest listening audience, learning from the Surgeoner's song about how to speak of the textures of life. Such is the ongoing collaborative nature of a language we are not born knowing.

We cannot express ourselves without first encountering the words of others. [06:45] Bowerbird's nest of noticings, calling other minds to take roost. [06:50] Oof, that's dense. The second one's a little more straightforward, but there's a writer I love, Benjamin Labitude. He wrote a book called When We Sees to Understand the World, among other things. And there's an interview of him. [07:01] Talking about his creativity, he says, I don't worry much about the shapes of the stories. It is all about research. I try to find things. To me, finding some other person's phrase is more important than coming up with it myself.

It is the part that I enjoy. In that sense, writing has become more akin to walking and picking stuff up off the ground. [07:22] And one final quote from you in some interview with Sophia Epstein, it's nice to look around. I think it's like the full page quote. So my first question is, what is it with obviously that context around collecting? What does it mean to be creative? [07:40] Yeah. [07:40] Oh my god. [07:42] Man, you're really starting with the... Straight into deep end. Yeah, yes. [07:47] What does it mean to be creative?

[07:51] Well, I mean, the thing that you're pointing to, I think, with those quotes and the thing about being creative are maybe the related... [08:02] but they're slightly different. [08:06] I think those things are... [08:11] Those things to me are about like understanding one's own perspective, you know, like, you [08:20] You sort of, like, have to understand, like, where one's own gaze is naturally drawn to, you know? And that... [08:31] Understanding that is sort of like understanding... [08:35] Yeah, understanding one's own perspective. And being creative, I think, is like... [08:40] Making an idiosyncratic...

[08:44] combination of those perspectives that you're drawing you know and i think a lot about i mean creativity is such a like weird word now and it's such a loaded word you know and i think it means a lot of different things to different people um to me it's sort of about problem solving um and i think [09:08] Yeah, it's like... [09:09] The connection that I can draw between those two statements or those two concepts is like being creative is about problem solving. Understanding one's own perspective is about finding a way to sort of like put those puzzle pieces together.

You know, you have like you're looking at something from this direction. You're looking at something from that direction. Like what's the crossover? And like how do you sort of like draw something out from those two? Almost what's the space in between? Yeah. Yeah. [09:39] Yeah. [09:40] I wanted to ask about creativity. We're going to talk a lot about, I think, several things you just implied there. Creativity is an interesting word, as you alluded to, like it means everything and nothing. [09:52] and I think I want to talk both about, [09:54] the curiosity learning research side of you and your world and arena.

And also the thing you alluded to, which is almost the, [10:00] You refer to as nodal points like this, what we actually give our attention to. But I want to linger on creativity just for a second. Two other definitions that I thought were interesting that kind of came up in my research. And I'm curious with the backdrop of your answer. The first is from an Arena Influences channel, I think via Christina Badal. [10:20] Creativity is just connecting things. When you ask creative people how they did something, they feel a little guilty because they didn't really do it.

They just saw something. It seemed obvious to them after a while. [10:35] I think you interviewing Yatu, you say both of you seem, both him and Norm, both of you seem like you really understand that creativity has more to do with decision making. I think it takes a lot of artists a long time to understand that. Yeah. [10:51] Yeah. [10:52] yeah the connecting things is a steve jobs quote which is funny it's like we we lean on that a lot and it feels like like the the thing that he's describing about being like like feeling guilty about pointing to something that specifically i'm surprised i didn't recognize it yeah yeah yeah it's a long i mean it's longer yeah yeah but um yeah i always feel guilty pointing to him because it's

[11:22] about decision making. Yeah, yeah, both of those things are the same, are like pointing at the same place, I think. [11:30] The decision-making thing... [11:33] This is like part of my quest to get more... [11:40] people who would consider themselves creatives to start businesses. Yeah. Because I think – [11:46] yeah like like i really stand behind that that idea that it's just about decision making especially now especially like in the past hundred years being an artist is like like douche du champ it's like it's like about making decisions that's all it is you know and you have like you can do infinite things you have to decide what you're going to do and like what is the rubric for deciding what to do um so yeah i mean the way that yatu and norm approach their practice and like how [12:16] blurs this line between art and business, I think is like a perfect example of like, they're just making decisions, you know, they're like focusing on a topic that they really want to, that they like feel the need or like desire to explore.

And then, [12:34] um like using their own perspective to sort of like chip away at that topic you know and decision-making there is just like a [12:42] It's like a personal thing. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Yeah. There's an aspect of it, too, that is a... [12:51] The decision making is this like engine. [12:54] Maybe there's something else that is... [12:57] The wheel... [12:59] in the metaphor, I guess. But there is something about, again, another word that is [13:05] sort of challenging now, but agency is inside of that, a little bit.

[13:10] The most creative people, certainly the most prolific people, to your point, are the ones who are like... [13:15] just [13:16] Like the engine is going. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think the hardest thing about that is like, [13:24] basically knowing yourself, you know, like, like you have to sort of like get to that place first before you can make decisions that are correct, at least in my opinion. Yeah, I want to come back to that. Before we do, I think it's worth talking about. [13:42] What stands out to me across all of these sort of refractions of what Arena is and is for is, [13:49] You guys say the point of how we describe arena is not to box it in, which is great.

But it does seem to kind of continually come back to this theme of self-directed education. Mm-hmm. [14:01] or learning or curiosity or something. You describe it as Montessori, the reading room at the public library. I went to the New York reading room yesterday. You inspired me. It was really lovely because I was finishing up the prep for this. A couple others that you guys did. Carly describes it as research as leisure activity. Damon's a toolkit for assembling new worlds from the scraps of the old, which is awesome. [14:25] But again, it's coming back to this learning thing.

It's specifically a self-directed form of that. [14:30] Have you... [14:32] Always had a desire to be a lifelong learner. [14:36] I don't know if I would have put it in those terms, maybe prior to Arena, but I was always the type of... [14:44] Like reading a different book in class, that kind of thing, you know, or like, yeah, going to the library, checking out my own books. Yeah. And like, yeah, that kind of thing has just always been like an impulse. Was some part of it almost rebellion, at least in that example you gave?

[15:04] Maybe. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I also remember, I have like very distinct memories of... [15:10] being in class, looking at a textbook... [15:13] like having to be in a certain chapter and just like flipping ahead to a different chapter that I knew would not be covered just because it's like, like what's over here, you know? And I think, [15:25] Yeah, it's part rebellion, but part just being interested. [15:31] To the extent that's been a common theme, um... [15:35] Do you have a sense of what... [15:37] causes it, what like really feeds that energy in you and what cause it [15:41] causes it to atrophy to the extent it goes in waves.

[15:45] Yeah, it really does go in waves. I think that thing, um, uh, [15:51] What feeds it? [15:54] I think it's... [15:57] It's a little bit of just making space for it. [16:01] Um, [16:04] Honestly, I find it harder and harder as time goes on because... [16:09] like having a job that's related to using a screen means that like anything that you might be interested in has to compete with every single other thing in the world. Yes. Um, [16:20] So that's tricky. Yeah, it's a little bit like you have to set up the conditions.

Well, I don't know about you, but I have to set up the conditions for myself, which means like... [16:32] it's like a little bit ritualistic, you know, like you have to get up in the morning, you have to like not look at your phone right away. Like it's all these kind of like standard things. Yes. If I'm not even sure it's real, like, obviously it's especially relevant or needed with the internet. Yeah. But you go like every writer, it's like Seinfeld's got his like room in his house where he locks himself away and he's got his legal path.

Yeah. Well, there's that kind of thing. But then there's also the like. [16:59] Connecting to the interest thing and, you know, [17:02] It's also funny specifically to be working on Arena because... [17:07] I like developed this habit a long time ago of just following any person on arena who's like remotely active. And so like, like, [17:18] my feed is just like nonstop and it's the quality I have to say, like, even if I wasn't being completely biased is still really, really good. So that's an interesting part of it where, um,

[17:32] it's like my job to kind of like look at arena and make sure it's like functioning properly. But also there's like things pulling like interesting things, pulling at my attention when I go on there. And I also feel like I have to carve out time to like, just use arena myself in like a nice way. Like I would if I wasn't working on it. Yeah. Yeah. [17:57] It says something that you imagine any other content platform on the Internet, if you got the entire stream. Yeah, no. Yeah, yeah. Kill you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's shockingly not overwhelming on Arena. But I do wonder what it would be like if I could like. [18:17] Roll it back a little bit. Yeah. What's your relationship to the word research or to the act of research? [18:22] Yeah, I was thinking about this this morning because I was – [18:28] listening or I was reflecting on a show that I watched, which is called Neighbors, which just came out on HBO, which is, Oh, I heard about this. Yeah. Yeah. For me, it was recent too.

So it must've just come very, very recent. Yeah. And, um, one of the neighbors is sort of like, uh, [18:44] like a fortune QAnon type person. And like the word research get used, gets used in that context a lot, you know, where like, if you just, if you just do the research, like, you know what I mean? You'll find like, like there's this kind of like, um, uh, yarn on a, like a cork board kind of like research thing. Um, [19:03] And when we started [19:06] We had to qualify the word research in a completely different way, which is like it's not academic.

You know what I mean? And now we have to qualify it like it's pleasurable. You know what I mean? Like it's casual. It's a loaded word. It's a loaded word. Yeah. Yeah. And I think also the way that people do research now, like this sort of started with these note taking apps like like Rome when that was a thing. [19:36] with chat GPT and all of these things. Um, [19:40] doing research to a person could mean something different, especially when you're thinking about it on the Internet. And I try and say, like, [19:49] I'd use the Wikipedia rabbit, like following links on a Wikipedia trail, as a way to lean into...

[19:58] the self-directedness of what i mean of what we mean by research you know do you feel like you are researching in [20:05] When you're using Arena in your daily life, is that a... [20:07] I don't know what else to call it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think research is the closest thing, but it's a little bit more like... [20:17] self-directed exploration. Yeah. Yeah. Do you spend much time distinguishing between, um... [20:24] passive learning and active learning. [20:28] No. [20:29] I don't think so. Yeah, because I think it ends up being the same.

[20:35] It ends up sort of being the same... [20:39] Does it... [20:42] No, it feels the same to me, to be honest. That was kind of my sense, and I don't think that would be a conventional view. [20:49] Really? [20:50] We described the... Passive learning and active learning. I mean, part of the implication, or maybe at least part of the connotation might be that... [20:58] passive learning is more likely to be things that you're doing for fun anyway. [21:02] or even maybe like, quote unquote, research. And active learning is like, I have to learn this thing.

I mean, I'm probably like even... [21:10] even still like too rooted in the traditional like school metaphor. Yeah. I see what you mean. No, I mean like, no, they, to me, those things sound like different modes that one might be in, but they don't really sound like the end is all that different or the, or the motivation to do the thing is all that different. Ah, huh. [21:30] Huh, okay, that might be something we come back to. One other little thread. [21:36] I think it was also in that Yatu interview, he...

[21:41] He apparently had danced in high school and you had made the comparison between skateboarding and dance, both being these things that you kind of have to teach yourself. [21:50] Yes. [21:51] Most education, at least youth education, is not that. It's not self-directed or even teaching yourself. [21:58] What about what are you pointing at either inside of skate or dance or in general like these types of activities? What are [22:05] What about them builds that self-directed muscle? [22:09] Thank you. [22:10] For skateboarding in particular, I mean... [22:14] It's like embarrassing to admit, but I'm 43.

I still go skateboard. And the thing that I like about it compared to other forms of physical activity is... [22:24] you really are just deciding at any given point. [22:29] what you're going to do. And it's really based on like... [22:34] it's really based on mood, you know, and the mood of what you're doing is influenced by, you know, [22:42] so many different things. And I mean, without like, [22:46] Like, this is dangerous territory because I could talk about skateboarding for two hours, but... [22:52] One's own mood. [22:55] and sort of [22:56] I also really hate to use the word taste in this context, but once a taste in skateboarding, like what you're doing is informed by like, [23:05] consuming hours and hours of skate media, you know, like you almost consume more reference for skateboarding than you do the activity.

At least that's how it was when I grew up. Yeah. Yeah. [23:18] So you're sort of like skateboarding and dance. [23:22] are both very referential physical activities because you're sort of like pointing, like, like every trick has a connotation, you know? And when you're doing something, it's like a certain type of, there's like a certain type of skateboarding that you're doing, you know? And I mean, like I'm being reductive a little bit. Do you think that like, um, playing guitar has this set of attributes? Yeah. Yeah, probably. Yeah. [23:52] idea that you're trying to sound like so-and-so.

And then you end up sounding like yourself. There's a modeling or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You kind of fake it until you make it a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that relates a little bit to being a beginner, which I think is something that kind of comes up a lot too. There's an interview with Daisy and Francis at Tasteland. You just brought it up. You say, I'm kind of a poser apologist. If you notice that you're into [24:22] Yeah. [24:32] Yeah. Thanks for bringing up my poser philosophy. I love talking about this.

Um, can like composers, are posers earnest? Or can they be earnest? Well, I mean, first of all, I don't know if like poser means anything nowadays. Um, [24:49] i think i like reflect upon being young and learning how to skateboard and being at the skate park and this like um the meme of like your good memories versus your cringe memories and like the cringe memories are like etched in like um like having these like terrible embarrassing moments of like asking a [25:12] older skater like how to do something and um you know like this kind of stuff um [25:17] I don't think that would happen nowadays.

[25:20] I don't know what I'm getting at. Why wouldn't that happen nowadays? Because I think people have... [25:27] It's the same thing why I don't think poser is a thing. I think there used to be some sentiment that one has to pay their dues in any particular activity. And I think that people are much more patient and empathetic towards learning and being a beginner and everyone sort of having their place. I was going to say... [25:50] more like trying hard is way cooler now. Trying hard is way cooler now. Even selling out or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true. Yeah. And when I was, [26:03] younger or like the people that I looked up to were like Gen X people, which, which, [26:09] Like trying it hard is very much not cool. Or it's like way more complicated. Like everything has to be done casually. Yes. Yeah. [26:18] It's interesting. I... [26:20] I do wonder about the, to the extent you're right in that it is way easier to [26:24] be a beginner or be open about being a beginner. There is a [26:30] Maybe the realm where we're more performative or where there's more...

[26:34] complexity around it is the internet. It still has this bit where it's cool to, again, try hard or sell out or whatever. Everybody's in there. [26:44] you do a sponsored post and you're in your buddy's comments being like, yeah, so sick or whatever. But like, [26:50] It does feel that... [26:53] I don't know. I think about a place I spent a lot of time, Twitter. Like, [26:57] The... [26:58] The dominant... [27:00] of Twitter over the last five to seven years is the dunk. Which is kind of like not... It's kind of like screw you poser.

Yeah, that's true. And I do think that at least the platform you've built like... [27:16] There's something inside of this where you're trying to say it's okay. [27:21] Like... [27:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, yeah, I mean, they're very different modes, though. Like, even though you would, like, arena is considered social only because there's some... [27:35] like activity can be public, you know, but I don't think it's social in the sense of Twitter where like the point is to talk to other people, you know, like, like the things that you're interacting with on Twitter, [27:50] arena's content and you might interact with a person through content.

But on Twitter, you're just interacting with people basically. [28:01] There's a few thoughts coming on. One is you have somewhere where you describe [28:05] social networks that are about doing an activity as being more, you didn't say virtuous, but I think that's kind of the implication. And you may have even been thinking about GitHub, these old GitHub. Yeah, yeah. And so there's something inside of that. I guess I'm interested both in that and this notion that like, [28:24] it doesn't have to be like arena could be a totally private tool.

Yes. Um, I've used a lot of these types of, uh, tools that are, are much more private. Um, [28:34] And it seems, maybe I'm wrong, maybe there's a whole back catalog of things that aren't visible to me, but in doing a lot of, you have a lot of arena channels. Yeah, yeah. [28:43] Why do that all in public? [28:46] Is it a default thing? Is it something else? [28:49] Yeah, it has to do with it's sort of like different modes for me. And I think this is... [28:54] this different people have different approaches to this for me.

I, [29:00] For some of my beloved channels, doing them in public... [29:06] has like a little bit of extra pressure that sort of makes me more careful with them. Whereas if it was [29:14] I mean, the public on Arena is so slight that it really almost means nothing. Like, no one is paying attention to what I'm doing, really. [29:24] I'm not sure that's true, but... [29:26] Well, a couple of asterisks. One, you could say it's sort of like if you were publishing on a website, but not on your real name.

Like it's out there, but it's not like that's kind of what you're implying. But also you're the. [29:36] You're the CEO of this platform. [29:38] In theory, if anyone's going to be looking at anything on Arena, people are going to be looking at your stuff, no? [29:45] Maybe, but I think it really sort of comes across as just like, oh, you know what I mean? I don't think it's like people aren't analyzing takes in the way that they do on Twitter. The interpersonal dynamics that come up on Twitter don't happen in the same way.

Of course. Do you have many private channels? Yes, I probably have equal private channels. [30:08] This is what I'm interested in, which is like, to go back to the original theme, which is like, I think the point of this, not the only point of arena, but certainly the way you seem to be using it. And one of the stated uses is this self-directed. [30:19] education and research. If that is the goal, [30:22] perhaps it is this thing you've picked up, which is like, it's almost an external pressure. Like if I know I'm writing something [30:30] for an audience of one or five versus a journal, it does change the work.

So maybe it's kind of like that. Yeah. That's part of it. But also, um, [30:42] I mean, the thing that happens on Arena, the reason... [30:46] the real rationale to make something public is that, [30:50] things that you're adding to your channels will if if it's public then other people will add those things to their channels so you sort of like ambiently get exposed to other things that may or may not have to do with yeah yeah what you're looking at kind of as a pipe in exactly and that's the utility of that's the reason why having it be social at all you know yes yes yes [31:20] hub [31:22] At least when I first started...

[31:24] publishing code to GitHub, like doing things open source. [31:31] I don't know. Those things feel scary before you do them. And then you realize that the feeling of those kinds of platforms where it's public but [31:44] Yeah. [31:44] having it be public is not the point of it. It has like a different quality to it, which is like the publicness is the utility to you and to other people. Yeah. And it's a dynamic that's like, it's really nice actually once you, once you sort of like, [32:00] Get a handle on it.

Yeah, it had me wondering about whether this might be more... [32:05] we've sort of all assumed that like social networks, first of all, we hardly even have social networks. We have whatever, like the Instagram and Twitter aren't social networks. There's something, they're content platforms. Yeah, sure. But like there, and it's definitely closer, somewhere in between Twitter and Arena. But like I was thinking of, there's a, [32:24] platform I like called Letterboxd for movies. - Yeah, yeah. - And there is something about the fact that it's kind of, or Strava maybe, is some example.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - It is kind of like, [32:33] this single player thing that can then... Yes. And I think there's something there. Yeah, and I think that's why people point to, yeah, Letterboxd, Strava, any kind of platform where there's, like... [32:44] There's a primary thing to do, and there's a secondary social part of it. It always ends up being better. And it's also easier to make a business around those things than there are. It's telling that all of those are subscription businesses. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [33:02] Yeah. And I think, I mean, also it's why people still like I still see people point to Pinterest as being like, [33:10] one of the last places on the internet, you know, even though it's like a shopping platform, it still feels like that, I think, to a lot of people.

[33:18] Thank you. [33:19] Hmm. [33:20] Yeah, I wonder if that's right for... [33:24] more new things. One other core part of this that maybe blurs... [33:30] between what I think we all talk about around the attention and nodal point stuff. But we were talking before we started recording. [33:36] a clear... [33:38] Um... [33:39] An essential part of the medium of arena is... [33:42] the channel and, and thus like, I think one articulation of that would be the pattern. Um, [33:48] You there's a quote from Chris Alexander. He says, at the core of these books is the idea that people should design for themselves, their own houses, streets and communities.

This idea comes simply from the observation that most of the wonderful places of the world were not made by architects, but by the people. That's him talking about. I think it's all three books. So timeless way and pattern language. [34:10] And so I thought it was an interesting way to start this conversation, which is, [34:16] particularly under the theme of self-directed learning, there's something about organizing ideas in this way, if you want to take it in a kind of high-concept [34:24] you could call it a pattern. If you want to go low concept, you call it a meme or whatever.

Um, [34:29] What is it about these kind of contextual buckets that like are helpful in learning and maybe eventually in making to go back to Alexander's point? [34:38] That's a good question. [34:41] Thank you. [34:42] Well, I mean, I can only speak to my own... [34:46] experience and my own way of using Arena, which is that [34:52] like the channels that I really have [34:56] at the forefront, I sort of just use them as like a way to... [35:03] filter... [35:05] things that I'm seeing, you know, it's like a perspective through which to view a certain piece of information, like, does it belong here or does it not belong here?

And then when it belongs, when you, when you might sort of like open up the bounds a little bit and say like, oh yes, this does belong here, like, come on in. And now all of a sudden the bounds are shaped a little differently. And then you can, you just have a way of looking at a piece of information or an idea [35:35] Well, there's a memory part. There's a lot of things happening inside of that thing you described, which is partially... [35:41] you're you're it's a little bit just like i know where this goes yeah [35:44] and thus maybe it'll be easier for me to filter it, remember it or whatever.

To your point, there's also, [35:50] You can imagine a channel that you've just created, [35:54] that has three things in it. If you add a fourth thing, that changes everything. Yeah. Versus if it has that, are you typically creating channels or patterns or whatever these things are? Um, [36:06] like you read one or come across one thing, [36:09] Like, how do they form? Yeah. It's usually like I've been noticing something or like I've been noticing an idea forming. And it has to do with a couple of things. And so it...

[36:24] Typically, the way it starts, for me at least, is it will start in private. It will be a couple of things to start. You know what I mean? And it needs to be like three or four. [36:34] between three and five or something. And then once you have that, then you have, like, enough of a frame to, like, judge other things against. Right. Yeah. And, like, now... [36:46] like [36:47] Yeah, I have like maybe... [36:49] 10 of these types of channels that like over the years and now I think the bar for me is so high of like what that frame could look like like it has to be so yeah it's not complex but it's more like nuanced and some kind of combination of being nuanced and new um that I haven't made a new one or I haven't had like a new successful one in a in a while I suspect I [37:16] My sense is what you just described is actually a phenomenon that happens across...

[37:23] as creative people become more experienced. [37:29] The benefit is they have more of these like [37:32] Again, whether or not they use any of this language or not, even this conception or not. [37:37] it's easier for them to slot things in. Yeah. But the weakness might be something along the lines of what you just described, which is that they're more rigid in what their set of patterns are. Yeah. Yeah. [37:47] Yeah, yeah, the bar... [37:50] Yeah, the bar raises, I think. And it doesn't necessarily raise in terms of like...

[37:56] I [37:57] grandiosity, but it's something more subtle than that. I mean, I will say I think that [38:07] the last couple of ones that I've had that have been successful just turn, end up turning into essays, like the things, right. The, the, the collection of things sort of happened first, or I noticed that I'm saying the same ideas to people, um, like, like a couple of the same ideas over and over. Yeah. And that means I'm thinking about something. And then there are other things in the world that remind me of that thing that I'm thinking of.

And it's the, the life cycle, um, [38:35] at least in recent times for me has been that, uh, [38:39] The frames come up and then it sort of shortly turns into an essay. And then, yeah. Well, this would be one of the strongest cases for this type of thinking. Um, [38:48] is maybe it goes back to the Christopher Alexander quote, um, [38:52] I suspect that makes it way easier to actually make the essay. [38:55] write the essay. Definitely. It's like, I have an organizing frame. It's kind of like, yeah, yeah.

Otherwise you're just gathering scraps and it's like, you haven't done the work to, you know, [39:03] connect all the dots yeah yeah yeah definitely for me yeah and [39:09] Thank you. [39:10] I mean, obviously, writing and collecting references are two very different things. I find collecting references to be infinitely pleasurable and writing to be excruciating. Well, maybe that's a form of passive and active learning. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Having having the sort of like bar of you can't just have these things be like sort of [39:35] peasantly uh opaque and like pointing to something mysterious like a glob yeah yeah right yeah yeah there's a line i love which is um writing is high resolution thought yeah or or another one actually comes from um paul graham the y-commodator guy he says writing turns your ideas from vague to bad yeah yeah but there is yeah there is some kind of like and obviously writing isn't the only form but there's [40:00] There's something very fun and generative about one and very kind of like, it's almost compression.

Yeah. It's like taking all those. Yeah. Yeah. It's the decision-making thing. Yeah. [40:13] One other quote that maybe really said, you had said the things that do well in arena tend to be prismatic. They do well with a lot of different perspectives and you can put your own perspective into it. Maybe this relates more into the social side. I'm curious, I'm curious, [40:26] Have you ever had an experience where you've really seriously adopted somebody else's pattern or channel? [40:33] into how you kind of think or create or you're adding a lot to or whatever?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, there are patterns that come up on Arena, not necessarily in terms of like how it, [40:45] like what kind of conceptual frame to draw around a set of references, but just patterns of using it and sort of like an open-ended way. Like someone started this like inbox process, [40:59] pattern of just like making an open channel calling it an inbox and saying like or like this is a guest book like come sign my guest it's like a user like a ui kind of thing yeah yeah yeah someone else started this thing of like pre-pending your channel titles with a symbol so that they're grouped together in your index stuff like that like i definitely adopt from other people

[41:19] Are there ways that you've found... [41:22] that seeing a world in these types of buckets can be limiting. Yeah. [41:26] Thank you. [41:28] That's a good question. I'm like embarrassed to say no, I do not think that they can be limiting. I think it's for me, it feels very productive to have a sort of like set of constraints. And I find the constraints that Arena has. [41:48] to be extremely productive. Like, I think that myself and other people who I work with Arena on, [41:56] I'll sort of, like, use it the same way and are really, like...

[42:02] I don't know how to put it. Like... [42:05] It's really hard at this point to imagine a different mode of working that is not like Arena. Not like using Arena. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you've grown... [42:16] You've evolved around this certain type of scaffolding. Yes, exactly. Yeah. [42:20] Yeah. I'm, I'm like deep in, you know? Yeah. Yeah. For better, for, for, for, there probably are some limitations, but also it's been really empowered. Like you've, you've been augmented by this, this kind of way of doing things. Um, [42:35] One last little bit on this, which is...

[42:39] I guess the implication if you're gathering all these things is that, uh, you might eventually look through them. Um, uh, [42:47] different ways people have described. I think Damon Zucconi said it's effectively just building a personal archive, or maybe this is you archiving the casual web. [42:57] Two other quotes I really liked. [42:58] one from the Describe Arena at a Party channel. Everything not saved will be lost, which comes from the Nintendo quit screen message, which is so good. And then... [43:12] This other Wikipedia term I found, I can't remember what channel it was on, but it's sundoku, which is acquiring reading materials but letting them pile up in one's home without reading them, Japanese.

[43:23] Yeah. [43:25] I think that last bit actually really has the implication I wanted to pull at, which is – [43:33] How often do you really dumpster dive the archives? [43:38] Maybe this goes back to the writing versus just, it's really fun to just pick up shiny objects all the time. [43:45] Going back through the archive certainly doesn't necessarily mean to be turning into an essay, but it is a little bit of a different mode. And so I'm curious how you relate to that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like I said, I have these channels that I sort of like, [43:57] treat [43:59] in a more special way than my other ones, and I go back through those all the time.

Almost like they're a gallery or something. Maybe that's not quite the right connotation. Yes, something like that, yeah, yeah. They're slightly more... [44:10] solidified or, or crystallized. Yeah. Or there's, there's just something about the, the frame that I find like continually attractive. And, um, um, [44:22] At this point, having gone back and looked at them so much, it feels like all of that stuff is mine. Oh, and you know it well. You've traced those grooves almost. Yeah, yeah. But also, like, the things there are, like, I'm responsible. Oh. It's not like someone else.

It's like all me. They've been in my house long enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. [44:43] Yeah, but then some of the other things, like our new... [44:48] Like, this is not like a commercial for a new app, but like the new app has like a widget on it. Yeah. And so like hooking up some of my like very gigantic channels to that, channels that might be more like I'm like throwing a link in here to read later. Sometimes I'll get to them and sometimes I don't. But like having them just continually come up is also just a nice way of like, I think part of our job as like people who are, [45:18] maintaining and building arena is figuring out thoughtful ways of resurfacing that stuff without being too didactic about it.

And there's [45:30] Thanks. [45:31] As someone who used a lot of tools from Delicious, there is a temptation. I'm curious, and I like dopamine from New Information, so I'm doing the Sundoku thing, but they're diminishing returns. No, diminishing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no. I have a real problem buying books. I have way too many books. Yeah. [45:54] Let's talk about noodle points. There's so many kind of different ways to take this, but maybe a place to start. [46:01] Two quotes, one that's maybe just energetically sets the tone. It's a tweet from Ted Nelson.

Oh, great. All caps. Yeah. There is too much to say, and it goes in all directions. This is not just a slogan, but my most fundamental belief. Yes. And then a quote from you. In this excellent piece you wrote that I think if any people are going to go read anything, maybe this or one other that we'll come to later, but you have a piece called Here for the Wrong Reasons, [46:31] Thank you. [46:31] And you go on to say, when you encounter a piece of life-changing information, no matter how large the change part is, you are simultaneously discovering and creating yourself.

[46:40] becoming incrementally more complete. [46:43] Your perspective is made up of a meandering line through these points. [46:47] Learning, or maybe some precursor to learning, is a lot about developing the intuition to recognize when something you find in the world is going to be a nodal point for you. [46:57] there's a lot there. Maybe the first place to start would be like, what, [47:03] Like, what is... [47:05] life-changing information. What are you getting at when you say that? [47:09]. [47:10] I don't know. I feel like it's different for everyone. Do you feel like you can point to an early piece of life-changing information?

[47:19] Really important part of the piece, perhaps, that anchors this, I think, or at least sets the tone around it, which is you're describing kind of these... [47:26] Borges and com and skateboarding. Like you're describing. And so I think that with that tone, certainly, um, [47:34] I think maybe somewhere else you describe it as something that causes an inflection. [47:39] And so I, at the very least with regard to art, I think it's easy to think about what were the things that kind of helped me develop that intuition you're, you're describing.

Yeah. Yeah. I, I, [47:50] Yeah, like I also said in the piece I tend to like [47:54] My weakness is nostalgia, you know, and this is like a family weakness. Like my whole family is afflicted with this. But I think about early... [48:07] books, you know, and wonder... [48:11] whether or not like [48:14] the book formed the inclination or like the inclination was there and I recognized it in the book. And those, that that's kind of like the thing that I think I'm trying to, [48:24] point out with this thing, which other, which other people do as well.

And, um, [48:30] Yeah, so the life-changing part is like, I think... [48:34] It's about that recognition. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's about just sort of understanding, like this thing is made for me or I'm made for this thing or me and this thing share a strong connection. And like I said before, I think. [48:51] the hardest thing about like [48:53] being creative is just [48:55] understanding yourself you know so the change part is sort of about this like understanding [49:02] that [49:03] Understanding yourself, understanding your own perspective, you know.

Yeah. And whether or not the perspective is made when you encounter the thing or if it was already there, you know, it's a quantum question. Yeah. [49:16] They're they're sort of artifacts that. [49:20] where you had that experience of feeling like, uh, yeah, [49:25] of realizing that there really are things out there that feel like they were made for you. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, [49:31] maybe a part of this then... [49:33] Yeah. [49:35] on this... [49:37] never-ending kind of path towards... [49:39] completeness or cohesiveness you describe somewhere else in that piece like it's sort of like these things are contributing as a piece of a very large puzzle at least considered in retrospect right [49:52] Maybe I answered the question in how I asked that, but do you aspire to completeness or towards some kind of fullness?

No, no. I think that this is never-ending, ideally. Yeah. You know, because I think... [50:06] Is it increasing? [50:07] like is the picture dialing in resolution yeah it's dialing in resolution that's a good metaphor yeah yeah cool yeah but i don't think there's like a perfect yeah sure yeah yeah well there's a there's a kevin kelly line i like where he says the goal of life is to have become yourself by the time you're on your deathbed yeah exactly just maybe exactly yeah but it's a asymptotically approaching a limit yeah yeah yeah um another kind of key frame or key idea you use in the piece is this [50:37] desire lines.

But effectively, I think the critical point here is that it's a verb, not a noun, in terms of how we relate to these things that are these objects of our attention, more active than static reference. One other... [50:50] piece you you're describing desire lines which are these uh the classic image of the the walkway and then there's a an additional path made through the grass that shows where people actually wanted to go and uh you describe desire lines is a path made by walking yeah so there's an active orientation here yeah um