Mark Pincus: How to Build Billion-Dollar Products

[00:00] I went to Fred Wilson, who's backed everything I've done. I said, Fred, give me a million dollars and I'll give you 25% of the company. He said, Mark, you know I love you, I'd back anything, but I just have a tough time believing that you're really going to go back to work. Your number one job as a founder is to be right. My goal in writing this book was, I hoped it could be referenceable on the level of zero to one. I reread Peter Thiel's book after 10 years, and I was amazed that the points still resonated.

[00:30] the smartest group of people I knew who were all kind of interested in these topics that nobody else was. Consumer Internet, macro investing. It was like, in a way, we were all outsiders. I know now it seems like the insiders. And that was in 06, and then I launched Zynga in the spring of 07. I'm an AI maximalist. I think it's going to be bigger than we can imagine. These $2 to $5 trillion companies are going to be $10 to $20 trillion companies. [01:00] you [01:07] Mark Finckis, welcome to Sorcery.

[01:09] Thanks. We're here today to talk about your new book. [01:12] Life at the speed of play. [01:15] How long did it take you to pull this together? Because I watched this interview you did with Kleiner Perkins, I think it was like four years ago, and you were talking about it. Yes. [01:24] Yeah, it was... [01:25] It's embarrassing how long and how much time... [01:29] It takes to to write a book. It's it's like building a house. It's like [01:34] you can't justify the time you're putting into it. But then at some point in the process, you're just so committed.

Once you know you're going to do it, like you have a book contract, [01:43] You're just like, okay, [01:45] I got to at least make something that I would read. [01:48] And that's such a high bar. So yeah, it took a long time. What was really interesting to me, and I'm [01:55] so curious of if this was intentional or not was you started the book you literally started the book with elon he's very hype in the news cycle right now with the space he didn't need more press but you started the book with him why do you think [02:11] Elon is so emblematic at the speed of play.

And then also, like... [02:16] What was the process of putting that in first? [02:19] Well, the process was... [02:21] it just made sense to me. It just, every time I came back to... [02:26] Like what did I wanted to get across the essence of. [02:29] of [02:30] life at the speed of play of this [02:33] concept why did I put those words together why is that [02:36] Why does that resonate so much for me? [02:38] And I thought... [02:40] If I want people to picture it [02:41] I'd like people to picture...

[02:43] the kinds of crazy things that Elon can go do that none of us can do and crazy from [02:49] one hand, like, [02:51] putting fart mode in his car, which... [02:54] No responsible corporation would ever allow a founder to do. [02:58] Um... [02:59] to [03:01] Serious things like, you know, [03:04] deciding he wanted to create a tunnel boring company while he was stuck in traffic in A. and [03:09] We all have those thoughts, those moments. [03:12] I don't know about fart mode, but some version of it. [03:15] and [03:17] None of us can actually do anything about it.

Or if we do, we have to like devote our lives to that one thing. Like if you want to create a tunneling company, you know, maybe maybe you or I could, but it wouldn't just be a tweet. Right. We would have to like do our homework and go and research that industry and possibility and create a business plan and blah, blah, blah, blah. [03:40] All the things that are not fun. [03:42] And he's just having fun. You can tell watching him. So that's... [03:47] That was the first part of your question, why I wanted to start with that.

And then process-wise, it actually wasn't easy because I don't live my life at Elon's speed of play. I have... [04:00] A book. [04:01] co-author and a publisher and a chief of staff, and they all kept coming back to Mark [04:08] Don't don't go there. Elon's controversial and you shouldn't just call him Elon. You should say Elon Musk. [04:14] There's a whole weirdness, I think, that we're kind of breaking down around... [04:20] books and podcasts and it's like, [04:22] It's like, why can't we just... [04:24] talk the way we were just talking before we started this, right?

Why can't we just [04:28] be fucking normal, why do we have to like [04:32] be something else the minute that we have a camera on or we're, [04:37] publishing, [04:38] And I just think... [04:40] We can do that now on Twitter and social media, and it's fun. [04:44] and [04:45] I also have this theory right in the book that [04:48] Whatever I had fun writing had a better chance that people would have fun reading. [04:53] And whatever felt dry and necessary would feel dry and necessary. And so I was like, this just is fun.

I want to just... [05:00] I really believe it. I'm like, I might as well. [05:02] It's like if you're going to write a book, you might as well just be in your own voice as quirky as it is and... [05:10] That'll make sense to some people. I don't know. Did it make sense to you? Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, we were literally just talking about this with X. It's like we were both... [05:21] sharing how we built really niche but like engaged communities on x and yeah for you you [05:28] We're locked up for a little bit and you couldn't post the way that you'd want to post.

And now you're posting the way you want to post and you're getting 4000 likes on single things like. So I guess like you've experienced on multiple directions. And I think X is probably one of not to like talk about Elon too much, but I think X is for me, at least one of the most interesting testing grounds because you get immediate feedback. Yeah, it is. [05:52] Yeah, in fact... [05:54] I can't remember if I put this in the book, but... [05:56] I've felt, I think I did, I don't remember, but I've felt for a long time like the only place that we actually can...

[06:03] experience life at the speed of play [06:06] is posting something on Twitter X, because you can take 30 seconds and take an idea and put it out there [06:13] And then it could resonate with people like, [06:17] And I never know what's going to resonate. But in retrospect, it's the things that I have the most emotional charge around and [06:23] I think my most viral post ever was [06:26] was [06:27] I was in a hotel late night and I was so frustrated. I got in late and it was a really nice hotel.

It was a peninsula in Chicago. [06:35] And I got to my room. [06:37] And I was so annoyed that I had spent like a half hour at the front desk that I didn't want to spend. [06:43] And I just said, why is it that the nicer the hotel is, [06:46] the longer it takes them to check us in. And it feels like, [06:50] They didn't know I was coming and they're furiously typing. And I want to look at their screen. I'm like... [06:56] what's going on back there? Like, [06:58] Are you shocked that I came?

Because I guarantee this on my chronic heart. Why do you need to see my ID now? Like, I can... [07:05] do this online. You can do anything online. I can go to a motel six on a road trip and they'll text me a lockbox combo. [07:14] Without like, why do they give me a better experience? Anyway, so that was my most viral tweet ever. I just posted that. I think Elon might have. [07:21] replied or retweeted or something. But, you know, just because I felt so much emotion, I think it got like [07:27] 30,000 likes or something.

And then are you seeing that with the companies that you work with, like literally putting out products and testing ideas that way? Well, I, [07:36] To the point about, like, life at the speed of play and... [07:41] Feeling that emotional charge the fact that [07:44] you can check you can have grok look for you but [07:47] anytime anyone posts about the hotel check-in experience in a nice hotel [07:51] It blows up. [07:53] So, so really, yes, so many people. So that is market research, not just [07:58] the number of likes, but there's a charge, an emotion that we feel that because we know this is wrong.

And that's. [08:06] That's an instinct that we all have to. [08:09] And you can see that played out. So that just tells me [08:13] there's a big unexplored opportunity there well you're involved with airbnb so well [08:19] Yeah, Airbnb... [08:22] Probably. [08:23] It's a good... [08:25] It's a good question. Like, [08:26] Airbnb probably gets around that because you're doing everything online and you're just showing up. So they probably... [08:33] You know, I can't say that's why they do well, but. [08:35] But there's this Airbnb experience and then there's a hotel experience.

[08:40] And [08:41] they don't seem to ever meet each other. You know, there's... [08:44] Not that I want like a [08:45] community host when I show up at the peninsula or something, but, but there is just this weird inversion of service that, uh, [08:55] that so often I think [08:58] Lots of times the service we want is to... [09:01] not have to be, I hate to say it, but not have to be nice to a human, not have to sit there [09:09] and smile and have a conversation when you just want to go to your room.

[09:14] Well, we are now all very comfortable and very spoiled by how immediate we get anything. We were doing this interview yesterday, and this is going to sound so bougie for most of the audience, but we were doing an interview yesterday on a charter coming up here, and the number one thing people... [09:33] don't want anymore in a charter when they're flying private is... [09:38] is flight attendants. [09:40] And they don't want catering. Yeah. They just, they would rather order the food that they want. Yes. And they would rather get up and do it themselves.

Yes. That's a perfect example. I mean, this is a high-class problem we're getting to. But I don't know this is a real business opportunity. But... [09:56] But yeah, it's amazing on private flights that the catering is so bad and so expensive. And it's and it kind of feels bad. I know this. [10:06] will sound... [10:08] Even more tone deaf, sorry. But it's also bothersome that it comes in like hard plastic and you're just... [10:15] I know you're on a plane already. [10:17] But there's just something, it feels unhealthy and it feels...

[10:22] Like... [10:23] what am I going to do with all this like hard plastic? And I don't know. It's just bothersome. And, [10:28] Yeah, what I started doing is... [10:31] Just... [10:32] ordering Uber Eats, and I'm like, oh my god, I can have like [10:35] a great steak dinner or something or sushi. Yeah. And it's, [10:41] It's that inversion again. And flight attendants just feel kind of awkward. It's just... [10:50] Like, oddly... [10:51] This is random, but... [10:54] random connection but [10:56] at one point at Zynga, I [10:59] I did this...

[11:00] I started doing this annual tradition where I'd try to prank the entire company for April Fool's. Oh, my God. And it worked. [11:08] and but they all knew about it so i had to like get [11:11] craftier and deeper [11:13] And so at one point, [11:15] I got this idea... [11:17] actually from my life coach. [11:19] It was not a good idea to... [11:22] bring in clowns from the San Francisco Clown School and have them just start roaming the hallways and going to meetings. And I did it for weeks before April Fool's.

I did it in March. [11:33] And I thought it'd be funny, and it wasn't. [11:36] A lot of people have like clown nightmares. No. Yeah, a lot of people have like a weird trauma around clowns. Really? Yeah. There's trauma around clowns? But the reason I'm bringing this up now... [11:46] it oddly relates to this flight attendant thing is that, [11:50] It turns out a clown just walking around your offices, it's kind of awkward. It's like it's a person that is supposed to have attention. [12:00] and they're just standing there juggling or looking weird [12:04] and you're trying to not make eye contact with the clown, and the clown is really trying to engage you and...

[12:11] And it's just this weird awkwardness that you don't want to have to like... [12:16] be a [12:17] fan to the clown, you know, if you don't want to be. And [12:20] It's a little bit similar with, you know, [12:23] A flight attendant [12:24] Or if like at one point Airbnb, when they were launching experiences, they were like, [12:29] had their original idea was that you'd have like Michael Minna come cook in your home and all these amazing experiences. And, [12:38] I said... [12:40] to Brian Chesky, you know, [12:43] I don't want Michael Minna, with all due respect, to come cook in my home because...

[12:48] I need to... [12:49] showing him a lot of attention and i need to like i can't just it's not just a chef you're not just [12:55] Doing that to like hang out with him. Yeah, if you really want to hang out with him. [13:00] and like be his friend and go to his restaurants like [13:02] That's one thing. But if you just... [13:04] Wanted him to come and cook you a meal. [13:07] and get a better meal. [13:09] It's not going to be that. It's going to be this experience.

You got to be up for that. Yeah, it's just I mean, you would know of all people. It's like it. But like a lot of this has like psychologically shifted after covid when we were all cooped up at home for a while because we became became so self-sufficient and like just kind of like all of our consumer behaviors changed a ton. Yeah, yeah. [13:30] So when you were writing this book, and I wanted to ask this in the beginning, [13:34] A lot has changed since you started writing it. How did you keep it so evergreen?

[13:39] Hmm. Well... [13:41] My goal in writing this book, you know, I had, we all have an ambitious, you know, [13:46] Hopes and Dreams. [13:48] And [13:48] Mine was... [13:50] I hoped it could be referenceable on the level of zero to one. [13:54] and [13:55] I reread Peter Thiel's book after 10 years. I think it just passed 10 years. [14:00] And I was amazed. [14:02] that the points still resonated. I still found it really engaging. And it was like a three hour dinner with Peter. [14:10] And, [14:11] So I wanted to try to focus...

[14:14] on... [14:15] core lessons and philosophies and things that [14:19] During the pandemic, I was teaching a math class to my girls who were in fifth grade and all their friends on Zoom, and I called it Daddy Math. [14:27] And I knew nothing about teaching math, but I wanted people to build a math brain. I wanted these kids to have a math brain. And so I tried to come at so many different angles, not to give them math knowledge, but to give them knowledge. [14:39] a way of approaching math, [14:41] And similar with this, I wanted to give people like a product brain.

So it's like I try from lots of different angles, from stories or philosophies or [14:50] frameworks to the okay could you by the end of this book [14:54] actually just have your own product brain, like you're get in touch with your own sense of products and the craft. And, and so that, [15:05] hopefully is is [15:06] timeless. So one of... [15:08] my favorite parts is when you're deciphering between ideas versus instincts. Could you lay out that framework and maybe some examples? [15:16] Yeah. [15:17] So I created this course at Stanford Business School on product management.

It's still running after 10 years. There was only two really core things. [15:27] points that I wanted to get across in the class and even then [15:31] It was like I found out how hard it was to be a teacher because I was only like [15:34] Mildly successful because they didn't always get it then of the course one is [15:39] I believe... [15:40] the most foundational thing we need to get good at as founders, product founders, [15:47] is... [15:48] separating our winning instincts from our losing ideas. [15:52] That was the core point is the core point of the whole book.

[15:55] And then on top of that, I have this framework proven better new. [15:59] Which is so important we originally titled the book proven better day. I was like that's gonna be the thing but I [16:05] But I was like, that misses the gestalt of life at the speed of play. So... [16:09] This idea of instincts versus ideas that I'm still working on. [16:14] I think you're working on it in the way you described [16:17] launching sorcery, [16:19] is that [16:20] just like I gave you the example with the hotel that we tune into this thing.

[16:26] whether it's looking at like your emotions, the kind of, [16:31] emotion you get back on Twitter and there's like an X and a Y to that. Like I got 4,000 likes for this. [16:37] But then... [16:38] Oh, I got comments and the comments are really heated, you know, good and bad, or it's really [16:44] hit a vein so it's like we're looking for a vein [16:47] like a good drug addict. We're trying to find a good vein. [16:52] Sorry. Or a peptide addict. Yes. Right. Now it's not drug addicts, it's peptides.

Yes. Thank you. I guess they don't put them in their veins, but maybe they do. I don't know. Most of them are subcutaneous. I'm in A. way too much. Wow, you know this. Yeah. [17:05] It's amazing. I can tell who... [17:07] A lot of my friends are on this GLP-1 because they... [17:11] They do look better, but they also just look good. [17:14] like oddly skinnier, but in a way that... [17:18] You know, it doesn't always look like super healthy. You have a good GLP radar. [17:23] Yeah, I do. So these instinct veins are...

[17:28] They're like real kind of [17:31] usually emotional [17:33] But they're things in our human experience that are just... [17:39] broken or wrong or could be so much better. [17:43] Um, [17:44] And my best example is [17:46] remembering and [17:48] you know, [17:49] early Internet days. [17:51] But even when we were using SMS on phone, that I was like, we ought to be able to order a taxi through our phone. So I registered com. [18:00] M. [18:01] built a whole business plan, [18:03] but didn't pursue it because [18:05] It just wasn't that good a business plan.

[18:09] My instinct was right, obviously, that eventually we would... [18:12] order cars through our phones, [18:14] But that one idea I put on it was wrong. And I [18:18] The power of that, the power of getting that your instinct might be an A and your idea might be a B+. [18:25] Bye. [18:26] Why is that so important? It's like, [18:28] How often have you had friends... [18:30] friends who are dating somebody [18:33] And they're just trying and trying and trying or they're in a failing relationship. And you're like, he's just not that into you.

Right. And you want to have an intervention. [18:41] We similarly have friends who are founders... [18:44] And they're just... [18:45] stoically, heroically, [18:48] Sticking with something is just not that good. [18:51] You know, it's like a B plus. [18:53] And [18:54] B plus is the enemy of an A. B plus often, if we stick with the B plus... [19:00] is taking up space. It's distracting us [19:03] from unlocking the a and [19:06] to fail or to call the ball that that, [19:09] Idea isn't that good [19:12] it in itself is really powerful and not many people do it.

But when you commit to that intellectual honesty, [19:19] And you say, [19:20] Okay, it's just... [19:21] Not quite right. It's either really not right. [19:24] or it's not quite right. [19:26] it frees you up to now look around like is someone else pursuing this instinct in a better way or [19:33] or [19:35] Is the world not ready for this yet? [19:37] Or can I at least try four other versions? And. [19:41] My worst story of this was my company, net. [19:45] I managed to start one of the first social networks.

I mean, like, [19:49] Months. [19:50] like basically a month or two after [19:52] re-launched LinkedIn or started pursuing LinkedIn. [19:56] um, [19:57] before Facebook, before MySpace, [20:00] I launched at a point that everything worked. I mean, like, [20:03] You get an email saying Mark wants to be your friend. You'd be like, oh, what is that? You click on it and open it. [20:09] You know, so... [20:10] Like virality worked, everything worked, and I still failed. [20:14] And it was because... [20:16] My idea was wrong. [20:17] You know, but... [20:18] All these underlying instincts were obviously right like tribe [20:22] Became like three different industries.

[20:25] but one failed company. [20:27] And that really burned in for me, like just... [20:31] Wow, if I could go back to Mark 2003 and shake myself and say, dude, [20:37] You're on the right path, but this one idea isn't it. [20:41] you know, [20:42] So that's why I just felt like if I could just get one thing across to founders or aspiring founders, it's that it's. [20:50] Write down what is the instinct. [20:53] and separate that from [20:55] this one particular [20:57] product idea, [20:59] that you're going after. [21:00] How do you know when you have the right instincts and do you think your instincts got better over time?

[21:07] Mm. [21:08] I don't think my NSYNC's [21:10] It's a good question. I don't have any real evidence that my instincts have gotten... [21:15] better over time. They probably do. And I don't know if my ideas have gotten better either. They probably have. [21:21] But... [21:22] What I know has gotten better is my ability to calibrate [21:25] my ability to [21:27] both separate the two [21:29] and then [21:30] Recognize that idea just isn't it and to your question. How do you know? [21:36] It's [21:37] You say you have a boyfriend.

[21:40] when [21:41] It's similar to finding your person. [21:44] I think that when you find the right person... [21:47] You just know. [21:49] when you feel that love in your heart, [21:52] I think you just know [21:54] And when you don't, you don't know. [21:56] So it's a weird thing. When it really is it, [21:59] You just know. But when it's not quite it, [22:03] you walk around unsure. [22:04] If it's it. [22:05] And if you're asking like, [22:07] Is this it? Could it be? It's definitely not it. And from a product standpoint, [22:12] when it works, everything works like anecdote.

It works for you. [22:17] Anecdotally, it works. [22:18] Like you said, your podcast just started taking off. It just started working, right? It's not this feeling of pushing a rock up a hill. It's not this feeling of, oh, [22:28] this is really hard if it's really hard one of my life [22:32] philosophy is life is too short to struggle. [22:34] You're better off [22:36] struggling your bet your bet off not struggling but spending 10 years [22:41] trying to get to your lightning in a bottle, and then have it just all work magically.

[22:46] than 10 years pushing up a rock up a hill. [22:49] I want to talk deeper on this point of ideation and just coming up with more ideas and failing and testing things out, because I think it is the number one place that people get stuck. And a lot of people will also rest their laurels on they've got really good ideas and that kind of thing. But we've seen time and time again, and there is a humbling moment that occurs with this. Your idea has existed before. [23:19] And so how do you advise companies, founders, how have you done this in the past of pushing through ideas and experimentation and just trying more and then just getting rid of the old ones fast?

[23:31] Well, I don't. [23:32] It's a perfect lead-in to my framework, Proven Better New. I like to say that we should be... [23:38] Like, [23:39] scientists with white lab coats. And there's so many paradoxes in this that [23:44] We want to follow our passions and emotions and we want to go innovate. [23:48] And then I'm telling you, okay, to be really successful at that, you have to be dispassionate about your ideas. You need to... [23:55] feel no attachment or connection to your ideas, have a white lab coat and just [24:01] do science experiments, right, which doesn't sound fun.

So these are paradoxes that pull in different directions. But I also think [24:09] that [24:10] They keep us in bounds. And I think that [24:13] if you can... [24:14] use a framework like proven better new or invent your own or steal it and make it better. [24:21] I think you'll massively increase your odds of success and you will increase [24:25] decrease the odds at least that you waste so much time on b pluses that and so i'd say is this the idea of [24:33] Proven better new is you have this instinct and you have an idea and [24:37] Okay, great.

[24:38] Let's now... [24:39] deconstruct what it is [24:42] that you want to do. [24:43] And I use games. They're a perfect example because there's so many mechanics that make up a game, but that's the same as games. [24:50] features or the pixels that make up [24:53] this exact experience. I try to get people to do, as an exercise, is to say, okay, [25:01] Let's [25:02] really look at what it is you're trying to do and look out in the world first at [25:05] Where has someone done this before? [25:08] and failed that's great learning is there any example of what you want to do [25:12] That's proven.

So you are building a hit new podcast. [25:16] Great. [25:17] That's been done before. Let's look. Let's deconstruct. [25:21] the podcast that you admire the most. [25:25] I don't know, all in or... [25:26] Joe Rogan or [25:28] Lex Friedman, whatever it is, but who's done the closest thing to what you're doing? And now let's deconstruct. [25:35] every single thing about it that's made it successful. And let's also think about [25:41] Is that the same audience that you want? Because if it's a different audience... [25:45] it's not great data for you it's not a great proven because we need it to be [25:49] Proven for this exact purpose.

[25:52] product and use case against this exact audience. [25:55] Then I'm going to say better. [25:57] Is there anything I can do that 10 out of 10 of the existing audience would say, fuck yeah? [26:02] Then what you think is better is new, which we're not at yet. [26:06] what they think is better, you and they think is better. And it's usually... [26:10] really little [26:13] micro parts of the experience. It's usually in products that it's now free or half price or no download or [26:20] fairly mundane things better music soundtrack but it's something that everybody [26:26] notices as better.

[26:28] And then new is like, what is the novel thing that, [26:32] that you're doing [26:33] that's new and different and a reason to try it. [26:35] and we have to accept that the new will probably fail. It'll be a reason to try it. [26:40] and it will probably fail. But if we do proven and better really well, it gets you two things. One, [26:46] You're not going to fail for the wrong reason. And then... [26:50] We're isolating what is actually your novel new idea. Okay, maybe your show is... [26:56] like we said before you started, okay, and engaging smart woman, [27:02] who can go deep with [27:04] tech founders, um, [27:07] but maybe is more accessible to a broader audience that includes women and [27:11] younger people or whatever it is.

[27:13] Great. Okay, that might be your new. [27:16] You don't know if that's [27:18] if that variant of your new is going to work. So you're like, [27:21] Maybe... [27:22] What if you found out that [27:24] That might be right, but it needs to be two women. [27:27] Okay, that would be another idea that you would test you're like, okay. [27:31] I'm going to make [27:32] four different versions of this show. [27:35] And one is just you... [27:37] one-on-one interviewing founders another one is tbpn style and it's [27:42] It's copying them and it's, [27:43] you and another woman playing off each other and I'm in the middle.

Um, [27:48] But that's the idea of proving that are new. It's just... [27:50] Can we... [27:51] Take that instinct you have of a more accessible... [27:55] you know, tech podcast, but, you know, [27:58] but give you four shots on goal or 10 shots on goal and not just stick with the one shot [28:05] where you're like, [28:06] Okay, is it working? I don't know. [28:36] protection into one powerful account. You can send and receive money globally at lightning speeds, get 20 times the standard FDIC coverage through their partner banks, and even high yield from day one.

With same day and even same hour liquidity, access your funds anytime. Companies like Scale AI, DoorDash, Service Titan, HIMSS, Anthropic, Flexport, Robinhood, and Plaid trust and use Brex. [29:06] That's our com slash sorcery. Turing is training the next generation of AI with tasks that require real expertise and real world judgment. That's why companies like NVIDIA, Anthropic, Salesforce and Gemini partner with Turing. Turing builds realistic reinforcement learning environments and data systems based on real operational traces. The kind of infrastructure frontier labs need to train super intelligence. [29:36] Yeah, that's really fascinating.

It's really fascinating to hear you break it down from your brain because you clearly look at the world with this framework and just... [29:48] dissect each company you see in terms of like how they're going at it differently, what they change slightly. Like I can see that like you look at the world and like these very small nuances and you're like, oh, well, that's different. And they did this and it's scientific. [30:03] Yeah, in fact, [30:05] I think for all of us to get good at this, we almost need to look at ourselves in the third person.

[30:12] Because you've got a focus group of one with yourself. And the more that you start to be... [30:18] a student of what resonates for you and why and what doesn't. [30:23] then the more you'll actually get amazing data from that. So, [30:29] I every time I try a new mobile app, I'm noticing like what's the onboarding experience? Oh, yeah. [30:35] I don't like this product, but this onboarding experience was so much slicker and better. [30:40] And those things really, really matter with mobile, right? You lose people with every click.

[30:45] So the whole auth of how are they going about having you set up an account and auth you in the account... [30:52] is, [30:52] It's evolving and it's getting better and smoother. And if you go backwards and now you're like, oh, shit. [30:58] They want me to like... [31:00] create a password and... [31:03] go back and verify my email, like forget it, like you've lost me. [31:07] I'm never going to see your innovation because... [31:10] your first time user experience or fatui sucked. [31:14] And that could be an opportunity.

What if [31:16] They have a really good innovation. [31:19] You can learn so much from a failed product that has a great idea buried in it. [31:23] because they didn't do proven better news. So they had [31:26] shitty onboard [31:28] The founder of TBH had that experience. They interviewed him in the book. [31:33] that he said, [31:35] There was an Arabic language product that was doing... [31:38] this honesty box like [31:40] Get your friends to anonymously... Nikita Beer. Nikita, thanks. [31:44] Yeah, and he was a perfect example of proving better new because he [31:49] He actually found...

[31:51] a proven concept. I mean, it had heat for him and he saw it in the reviews, [31:57] but it was buried in a very, very narrow niche product [32:00] And he said, great, I'm just going to take that idea seriously. [32:03] copy it and make it front and center. [32:05] So, [32:05] I'm so like, so I think there's, there's like a couple there. There's so many questions. Also add. [32:12] Um, [32:13] Welcome here. [32:15] from my phone [32:17] that [32:19] I really am a student of... [32:22] like myself sounds very, um, [32:26] self-involved, but I'm doing it [32:28] in order to create products for others.

It's okay to like yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, get more self-aware [32:36] and [32:37] And my experience is that [32:40] any app that makes it to the front of my iPhone. Oh, this is one of my favorite parts. Yeah. So that's, that's my iPhone homepage. That's it. Yeah. And I'm very careful to only put [32:51] Apps. [32:52] that I really use every day. [32:55] And so I really, really pay attention. [32:57] And so very few apps make it to the front of my phone, but when they do, [33:03] I noticed that and say, OK, I used to say I had a stick value of a billion dollars.

[33:08] nothing 5 billion or something or more but [33:12] That's... [33:13] In this world... [33:15] such important information for you if if you also can tell [33:20] Who do you represent? [33:21] And I seem to represent... [33:24] the early majority 18 months later. [33:26] And so, [33:27] I just figured out [33:29] Okay, if I'm using this every day, [33:32] huge percentage of [33:35] the early majority in the world are going to be using this in 18 months. And I've just... [33:40] calibrated that and seen that that's true over time. And we should all do that.

Like, who do you represent? [33:45] You know, we kind of do it in our minds. The new movie, you're like, I loved it. Was it a hit or not? You know, or a new song. [33:51] And, you know, whatever products you're into, and that's what I love about consumer, you could start to do the same thing. And I've even invested off that. I think I mentioned in the book. [34:03] I was using Raya when I was single. [34:05] after I was divorced. [34:07] and [34:08] And I found myself... [34:10] really [34:11] having fun with it.

And dating apps are so painful. My experiences are so painful. And Raya actually made it [34:18] kind of fun and interesting and and they kicked you out they'd only let you look at 25 [34:23] profiles a day, then you're done. [34:26] And, [34:28] So smart and so well done and different that I just cold mailed the company and then [34:33] I invested and put up [34:34] most all their money. [34:36] Wow, I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. [34:39] I'm curious because there are like... [34:42] a couple different angles on this because we're just in such a weird period of time right now.

So Dylan Field, actually, he reposted this post a couple of days ago, which will be a while from when we [34:55] release this, but [34:57] Dylan Field recently posted, because right now, you know, like, Figma is battling the headline wars of Anthropics new model releases. Right. But, like, if you look at Figma's... [35:07] Earnings they're doing just fine. They're doing great like people love their product and so one of the the post that he reposted was this chart of new app launches and like actual adoption and they were just like They were just completely separated.

Yeah, so we're in a moment in time right now where you can create a [35:29] Literally anything you want, whenever you want. So like, how do you determine and how do you actually create something that sticks? And then secondary to that, I know this one will be like a real good one for the audience. How do you make sure it's a business? Yeah. Yeah. [35:43] It's [35:45] You know, it's the best of times and the worst of times. [35:48] It's so often that it's just so true today that on the one hand, AI, like you're saying, is just magical and and.

[35:57] I, I, [35:58] Do you talk about in the book that that? [36:00] are compressing the time to get to something you can test with people [36:05] is amazing, right? So much less capital. [36:08] um... [36:09] At the same time, what's so hard from a consumer point of view is that [36:14] AI itself isn't a new platform. So when you think about... [36:19] new platforms like [36:21] That used to be new mobile game consoles, but. [36:24] You know, the web and the web in a browser was a new platform and mobile was a new platform.

We all move into a place of discovery. [36:33] where we're talking about the new apps and services and we're downloading them. And now we don't download new apps. I mean, we download an average of zero new apps a month. So that, to start with, just makes it [36:47] brutal. On top of that, [36:50] We don't. [36:51] stick to anything new when we do try it. Like you said, I believe last year there was 40,000 [36:57] 40,000 games launched in the App Store and 0% of them sustained a top 25 position.

[37:06] Some might have made it to top 25 for a minute and left. [37:10] and the top 10 games and probably top 10 apps [37:14] hasn't changed in probably five years. [37:17] Because [37:18] We're not... [37:19] waking up looking for something new. [37:21] And it's why... [37:23] I think we have to have a mentality investing in consumer and building that is around the day 365 retention. And it's thinking... [37:31] It's really hard, but it's thinking, what can I build that... [37:35] Not only can I imagine my users using a year from now, but they, when they first try it, can picture themselves using it a year from now.

Think about when you try a new TV show. [37:47] You're watching the pilot, even if you're thinking about the pilot, [37:50] You're not just thinking, am I going to like this one episode? You're like, is this a show I could get into? Like, is this a book I can make it the whole way through? [37:59] And... [38:00] It's kind of the same mentality when we think about our apps or digital services. Does it fit in your digital life stack? It's very hard to... [38:09] to get people interested in a new behavior so [38:13] All these things...

[38:14] make it very difficult. And even if you get to something that does fit in the digital life stack, [38:20] It turns out [38:22] We need something that you're going to use every day and frequently, or you're going to forget to come back to it. [38:27] And so, [38:28] You have to do all those things or... [38:32] The way that I built Zynga was... [38:35] Find a place that people are already hanging out like everyone was hanging out on my space and Facebook today. Everyone's hanging out on GPT or hanging out on X Twitter.

[38:47] If you can create a service. [38:49] that is core to that experience where they're already hanging out [38:53] then [38:54] they'll be reminded to keep using you every time they see it. The core point of this is that you [39:00] You have to be thinking about this distribution and mindshare. [39:05] lockstep as you try to invent your product. The idea that you're just going to make a better mousetrap and the world is just going to like, [39:12] come to you. [39:14] It might work. It's just extremely low odds. [39:17] Just to be clear, you did this extremely well at Zynga.

Can you explain some of the cohorts and what you did with each game? Like, they had crazy record setting, retention, and growth. Sure. [39:31] What? [39:32] We figured out trying to survive in this. [39:35] In a lot of ways, this app ecosystem, these app ecosystems, [39:41] that evolved on MySpace and Facebook and the other social networks were a precursor to what mobile is today. So there was an app economy there. [39:49] And you are trying to live and survive. [39:52] on someone else's platform as just an app. And it was fleeting.

[39:57] and what [39:57] All our competitors at the time, like Max Lefgen, who was on United Slide, they were the big dogs on these... [40:05] social networking services and they had huge virality [40:08] and games weren't viral. [40:10] Okay, and in fact, I remember Dave Morin, [40:14] sat down with me before they launched their app platform [40:18] He and I... [40:19] had coffee in coal valley and he said mark [40:23] Anything but games. They're just not viral. And there's so many viral things people are... [40:28] launching on our platform, pokes and [40:31] Wall apps and but.

[40:33] I want to see you succeed, just don't do games. [40:36] I was like, well... [40:38] I. [40:38] I had a feeling based on my failure of tribe that everyone's hanging out at this cocktail party with nothing to do. [40:44] So I had this instinct. [40:46] that [40:47] People want something more fun to do while they were having their social networking. [40:52] And then I put this idea of, you know, a variant of a social game. [40:56] Um... [40:58] What I quickly realized was, [41:00] games were not viral we couldn't keep up with the virality of these apps that we're doing [41:05] They were doing hundreds of thousands of installs a day.

[41:08] but we had the chance to have better retention. [41:11] And there was a reason to come back where the other ones there wasn't. [41:15] So, [41:16] We built... [41:18] Every game against this retention idea. [41:21] And we used the social loops to remind you to come back. [41:26] And that was core. And the way we thought about it is on the one hand, we wanted to innovate more. [41:31] on how could we help you improve the relationships in your life. [41:35] How could the social interaction in Farmville work? [41:39] make you more likely to cross the street and say hi to somebody that you just knew online.

[41:44] Were there real acts of friendship, like gifting? [41:47] or heroism that we could do in a game. [41:51] um [41:52] And then on the other hand, we thought, how do we build game mechanics? [41:56] that remind you and your friends to come back through these other channels, the feeds and [42:01] requests and [42:03] things like that. And [42:05] So we got better and better at that. And... [42:08] Yeah, so we had huge day 365 retention, and that's why... [42:13] Our original games like Zynga Poker... [42:17] And a couple of years later, words with friends are still...

[42:21] Some of the biggest games that Zynga, the company... [42:24] however many years later, it's [42:26] getting close to 20 years, 19 years later. [42:29] And every new... [42:31] genre of games we built [42:34] What we did was we built new social gaming mechanics. [42:37] and [42:38] I had a whiteboard originally. I just leaned against a wall in one of our studios and I just wrote a [42:45] the name of every game mechanic I'd ever heard of, [42:48] And I just... [42:48] We try them and cross them out as we did them.

And every single one of them worked. [42:53] And then we, but we didn't just do a game mechanic, like there's XP achievements, like [42:59] co-op play, there's all these things that are in like MMOs and [43:03] and like a World of Warcraft, we would turn it into a social game. So we wouldn't, I like to think of it that what we are doing and often we're doing with consumer and even enterprise apps is we're kind of in the candy business. [43:16] and in the hoop jumping business. [43:18] And it's kind of go to Dave and Buster's or whatever the variant of Dave and Buster's is.

[43:23] to do your market research, which my four-year-old wants me to take him to these arcades where we play these games. [43:29] put $50 into these games to win tickets. And then we go to a vending machine and we can buy junk like, [43:37] a bouncing ball, a whistle, it's not worth $50. [43:41] But, [43:42] And he's excited about these things. And so on the one hand, we're trying to come up with candy like [43:47] What are things that people want? And, [43:49] We're evaluating those rewards and the highest reward [43:53] for most people, is social status.

So can I actually... [43:57] move your social status. And in a lot of ways, the biggest reward socially we could get to in a game was a marriage. [44:04] So we counted the number of marriages that happened through our games. That's like, [44:08] Real life candy. That's wild. Yeah. So we had strangers who met in... [44:13] like words with friends [44:15] or poker, Farmville, and built relationships online and then met and got married. There was a couple with a woman in England and a man in America, and they eventually met in person and got married.

So that's like the best candy. And then we have hoops. Like, what do you have to jump through in order to get that candy? And the key is that the jumping hoop should feel fun. [44:40] if it feels like drudgery, [44:42] and not fun so that Dave and Buster's like [44:45] The ski ball and the games you play should be fun, but we're giving them more purpose and reward because you're trying to earn these tickets. [44:54] And you can actually do those same principles [44:57] Maybe you could do this with this podcast.

I want to ask this because... [45:03] So you do both building and investing. You see many categories over and over again. [45:11] I've been an investor my whole career. There are categories we will not touch. And firms that I've worked with who that's not a viable business model and they just kind of shun it and that's kind of a thing. Is that similar... [45:24] for you? Like, do you, are there certain categories you just won't touch? Is there sometimes always an anomaly where you're going to take a chance? Cause you know, dating apps, like they do have, some of these have life cycles and certain points where they do peak.

I think Nikita is a really good example of this. He knows how to build things to a peak user max and like, yeah, thing, but like, how do you, how do you think about that? Such a good question. So at a, at a really high altitude, like [45:53] Hundred thousand foot level [45:55] I think kind of enterprise versus consumer or B2B versus consumer, [46:00] And I always start with consumer. [46:03] It's just... [46:04] what I know, what I'm passionate about. But a few times I've founded enterprise companies by mistake. [46:09] One support dot com.

[46:11] went public the last week of the dot-com IPO window, but it was, [46:16] like a hardcore enterprise software company, but I started it originally trying to [46:22] do something for consumers [46:24] but then the tech we built... [46:26] Really applied and had core value in the enterprise. So [46:30] It wanted to be an enterprise company. I just went with it. I just recently co-founded an enterprise company. [46:37] AI company called Hivemind. Again, I was trying to pursue... [46:43] what I call the social membrane and just thinking like, [46:45] How will we do social networking in an AI agentic world?

And, [46:51] I teamed up [46:53] with Reid Hoffman and with a really brilliant ML... [46:57] engineer and founder, Ratankar Das. And Ratankar said... [47:02] These ideas that you want to do for consumer [47:05] apply right now in the enterprise. [47:08] and [47:09] It's a... [47:10] Are you cool if we... [47:12] brainstorm and go that direction and I was like [47:14] Okay. And so he ran with it and we found this, [47:17] company that now is in... [47:21] four or five enterprises and [47:23] is delivering a lot of value. [47:25] Because...

[47:27] Really, it was getting to the messiness of the human part, that the first and last mile [47:32] of AI and your enterprise as a human. [47:35] and [47:36] Anyway, we keep... [47:37] go deeper on like what that company is doing. But, but, [47:42] It's [47:43] There aren't good solves in enterprise software. [47:47] and in AI and LLMs for the human part and the fact that [47:51] The human still has these edge cases and this judgment, and you just can't ever get it into your system of record fast enough. [47:59] for it to work on its own as we realize you needed a continuous learning system that [48:05] is...

[48:06] it's dynamic and living and it's actually always interacting with everyone else in your company [48:13] And so [48:16] Those have mine, which... [48:18] is shockingly doing well really quickly. I guess not shocking because everything AI is selling out. But that was 100,000-foot level. [48:26] when I go deeper, like how do I think about things? I'd say, [48:31] I personally, there's like... [48:34] Another... [48:35] Another paradox is that on the one hand, I really... [48:40] My North Stars, I want to create an Internet treasure. [48:43] a service we can't remember life before or imagine life without.

Like as part of our life stack, [48:49] indispensable [48:51] It's like the iPhone or Google. That's really, really ambitious. [48:56] And I know you can't start with that ambition. You have to start with a really narrow ambition. [49:01] use case. And so how do you do both? [49:03] It's really hard. [49:04] But so I'm willing to start with really small ideas like Zynga started with a really small idea of one poker game. [49:12] but it pointed at a huge iceberg of [49:16] can we get the mass market to play games like busy adults to play games and [49:21] Can we do it by...

[49:23] playing on a different dimension that we're making these games... [49:27] we're letting you justify it more in your life because it's not empty calories because it's social