Dylan Field on the “Permanent Underclass of Zero Taste”

[00:00] Dylan Field, co-founder and CEO. Big Mutt. [00:07] I heard this was the Coachella for design, but I'm literally seeing that. So there's 10,000 people that are expected to come. What kind of companies are representing the crowd? Pretty much small. It's international. People come from all over the world. It's not just tech or software. It's everything you can imagine. Any role you can imagine in terms of software and media, advertising and content. I mean, you know this better than anyone. [00:30] the potential economy is real. Staying out is hard. I think that it takes not only human steering and human intent, but also it takes a point of view.

It is not enough to wear a thinking cap. You have to actually think. Elon Musk once said, if a product is special enough, it needs no logo. What do you think about that? [00:57] Dylan Field. Thank you for having me. Thanks for having me. Welcome to Config. I mean, I've heard this was the Coachella for design, but I'm literally seeing that. It hasn't started yet, and it's already packed. Yeah, this is day zero. [01:10] So what goes on today? - Well, today we got Config Commons, most importantly, and it's a good time for you to get your badge so that we don't have a long line tomorrow.

[01:18] One time we had like an hour keynote delay. It was very embarrassing. Really? Yeah, so we have a pre-reg thing now. [01:24] but also try to give people food, hangout spaces, get them to mingle. [01:29] I think it's really cool because people are always reconnecting with old friends. [01:33] here. [01:34] but also they have a chance to just meet so many people in the design community. [01:38] And it's a really special community. [01:41] That's not just for Figma, it's just for design more broadly. [01:44] So there's... [01:45] 10,000 people that are expected to come.

- Yep. [01:49] What kind of companies are representing this crowd? Pretty much all of them. But no, really, I mean, it's international. People come from all over the world. [01:59] And not just tech or software, it's everything you can imagine. [02:04] And, [02:05] you know, any role you can imagine, IC to leadership, [02:08] We have everybody from like the chief design officer to the students, [02:12] that are part of our student programs here. [02:15] So yeah, it's all over the place. - It's pretty exciting. - Yeah. - Okay, we're gonna attempt to walk through the crowd.

[02:21] Let's go for it. And you already had some paparazzi on you, so we'll see how this goes. [02:26] I think they're coming for you, you know. No, they're not, Dylan. It's literally the config, like, [02:32] Figma conference. Okay, so how many years have you been doing this and why start it in general? - Yeah, so we started in 2020. [02:42] right before the pandemic. [02:45] And [02:46] It was actually our 10th config. [02:49] because we've done international configs that are fast follows to the config and SF. [02:53] But the reason it started...

[02:55] We had basically user groups starting to pop up all around the world. [02:59] And then from there, [03:00] as the user group started to really gain momentum. [03:03] We wanted some way to bring everyone together. [03:05] and uh at first we're like kicking around ideas like oh yeah maybe like a few hundred people [03:10] We decided, let's go big, like 800 people. [03:13] And that sold out instantly. [03:15] So then from there, we were planning to, right afterwards, like, okay, next time it's going to be really big. [03:19] Well, [03:20] It actually ended up being even bigger because of the pandemic.

[03:22] And so it was like, [03:24] This is going to be a remote conference now. Oh, my God. [03:27] who we got so lucky the first time because [03:30] We were able to, three weeks I think before the pandemic started, [03:34] in full in the US, the world shut down. [03:36] um, [03:37] had the chance to bring everyone together [03:40] And I can't imagine what [03:41] it would be [03:42] If it was three weeks earlier. [03:44] Yeah, that's insane. [03:47] So the big headline right now, which I think you have...

[03:52] pretty much disproven is that design is dead. [03:57] Why is design not dead? Look around you. [04:02] No, I mean, I think that [04:05] The... [04:06] weird thing right now is [04:08] Everyone... [04:10] is kind of putting down all the other roles. [04:13] So like, you know, [04:14] I'm seeing way too much of [04:16] engineers saying, [04:18] I don't know, the PM and designer, and the PM's like, I don't need the engineer or designer, and the designer's going, maybe I don't need the PM or the engineer. And so, why is that happening?

And I think that [04:28] We're in a temporary phase of [04:31] Um... [04:32] people really, you know, getting excited about what they can do with AI. Yeah. Uh, [04:37] but not yet realizing all the limitations that they have. And hey, [04:43] And yeah, so I think that [04:46] There's... [04:48] It's truly exciting what you can do, but also... [04:51] the value of a team is really important. [04:54] And I think we're in a line here. We got stuck. We're in a line. Is this for food? Yeah. I heard that you guys, not to deviate too much, but I heard you guys are going to sell out of merch in like five seconds.

I hope not. Hopefully it lasts a little longer. [05:09] But the-- [05:11] But yeah, so [05:12] I think it's very lonely, the idea that [05:15] you're just going to work alone on everything forever. And I think that, you know, if you want to build scalable, real systems, [05:22] is for... [05:23] broadly, [05:24] Build the right thing, not just like something fast. [05:27] then I think it's really important to lean into design, not just from a visual and aesthetic standpoint, [05:34] but also from a user experience standpoint, from understanding the user, [05:38] understand the culture around you, [05:40] Like design is so much more than visuals and aesthetic.

Yeah. That's just the tip of the iceberg. But what I think is really promising [05:48] is how I'm seeing so many engineers now that are [05:52] I hope our cameraman did not trip. [05:55] We're seeing so many engineers now just get interested in Figma. [05:59] And. [06:00] As that happens, they're starting to really pick it up because [06:04] You go build something really fast, [06:06] That's awesome. But then you're like, okay, [06:08] Can I actually now make it great? [06:11] Right. I mean, what I thought was interesting is like, [06:14] Figma not only unlocked design for just normal people who just didn't really know how to design anything, but your software is really easy to use, it's very intuitive.

[06:24] but now you're involving code into it, and so now engineers are literally coding design. [06:30] Yep. [06:30] And I think that... [06:33] the [06:34] aspects of what we're launching tomorrow [06:38] uh will be even more in that direction [06:40] Really? So I'm really excited about that. [06:42] Go for it. [06:44] Thank you. Thank you. [06:45] Uh, [06:46] Yeah, so now we're inside. So now we're inside. Let's do a little 360 here. Come around. This is the emptiest they'll be. So how is it all set up? Where do people really mingle and all that kind of stuff?

The mingling will occur everywhere. But downstairs is going to be more like main stage keynote. [07:04] And that's like where there's a lot of activations and area to explore. Is that your favorite part? The main stage keynote? Yeah. [07:12] It. [07:13] I don't usually remember it. So once I get past it, then I'm like blackout. Yeah. It's a little bit of a blackout experience. Yeah. I get that. Yeah. [07:20] But you can watch it later online and then you're like, oh, I said what? [07:23] Yeah, I was talking to Michael about this before, but I was like watching all of the previous config videos and I was like, shit, this is really cool.

Well, the content that we're doing is so much. Yeah, the content on all the tracks are amazing. And we've had such incredible speakers and like. [07:39] at legendary times too. [07:41] uh, [07:42] I... [07:43] Actually, one of my favorite ones was... [07:45] Jesper from Teenage Engineering. I don't know if you saw that one. I got to interview him [07:50] And [07:51] yeah he is a character definitely watch that one later okay yeah are there any speakers this year you're excited about so so many speakers um that i'm excited about but two that i'm excited about [08:01] I'm like, [08:02] off the wall excited about.

One is Holly Herndon. [08:06] She's a total visionary artist to... [08:09] I think... [08:10] people don't appreciate like how far ahead she sees things. [08:14] Um... [08:15] You know, she was... [08:17] into very specific, like... [08:20] quirky ways of using NFTs or they were called it then. Early on, she open sourced her voice with AI early on. [08:28] you know, this is back in like 2021 or something, 2020. I mean, it's just like [08:32] the timescale that she's operating on is different than the rest of us. Yeah. Grant Sanderson is, [08:37] 3BlueAndBrown on YouTube.

[08:39] is another person that I think will give a great talk, and I can't wait to watch it. [08:44] He's... [08:45] Someone that I've been following for a long time. [08:49] I'm lucky to call a friend. [08:51] And he... [08:52] does these explainer videos for math that are just incredible. [08:56] And, um... [08:57] really uses graphics and design [08:59] to be really craft forward in his explanations and he puts so much care into them [09:04] and just [09:05] has been a teacher for so many is this why you're vibe mapping that's just for fun what does that mean it's it's it's just form of ellum psychosis okay uh until it's not but we'll see i i i think that the models are really decent at math uh for like

[09:24] pure math. [09:26] And it's a bit of an antidote to the non-verifiable domains that I'm usually in. [09:31] So for Figma, I mean, it's all vibes, right? Like you're trying to figure out [09:35] Um, [09:36] Sometimes it's very clear, okay, like literally you didn't center the div. [09:39] like learn to center devs, AI. [09:42] But I think more often... [09:45] You know, it's more like, okay, well actually you're giving a lot of styles that are very similar here. [09:50] You're not as broad in your range as you could be if an LLM provider is asking us for feedback.

[09:56] or we're trying to steer it. [09:58] And the evals were running... [10:00] on stuff we're doing, stuff others are doing. [10:04] Like a lot of it is inherently non-verifiable. It's like got to be human judged at the end of the day. [10:09] and you can set up more automatic methods for that, but you still have that human intent. [10:14] Whereas formal domains like math, I mean, that's as formal as it gets. [10:18] if you set up [10:20] the formal systems correctly, which are really easy to mess up. And I think it's kind of just a nice antidote in contrast to like Figma experience.

I love that. [10:29] It's very unexpected. [10:31] So you're talking about some of the speakers. Were there anybody else that you're excited about? [10:37] There's so many. I think that [10:39] Well, I'm in keynote brain right now. Yeah. And I think the keynote will be really awesome. [10:44] So we're going to have a bunch of figmates that are showing just incredible stuff. I know. I love that. It's like we started by the big sign and then all of a sudden you got swarmed. [10:54] Oh, well those are people I see all the time, yeah.

We have a great team. Actually, Ian, who you met, [11:01] I was in a class in my senior year of high school. We were in a real analysis class together. And since where I first met him, [11:09] And then he randomly applied to Figma at some point. [11:12] and didn't even tell me. - Really? - I was like, "Why didn't you tell me?" [11:15] And I found out, as soon as I found out, I'm like, is this the smartest guy I've ever, one of the smartest people I've ever met? Like, please, can we get him in?

Oh, my God. He still went through the full loop, of course. Shout out to Ian. All right. So we're going to head over and sit down for the Pantone Lounge. Let's do it. [11:29] It's super exclusive. Just two of us. Yeah. All right. Dylan Field, we are in the Pantone Lounge. We're in the Pantone Lounge. We made it through. We made it through the crazy crowd who was screaming your name and taking pictures. Maybe exaggerated a little bit. I'm not exaggerating. It's a great group out there. So I'm glad you got to be there.

So how did you convince all of them or their bosses that they should take the day off? [11:54] I think if you convince them and their bosses to come, it helps. So that's more of, I think, what's happening. So they're all having a lot of fun. [12:03] Because we're in the Pantone Lounge, I want to ask you a very... [12:06] Pressing question. Okay. [12:09] What is your favorite color? [12:11] I'm not going to ask about ref number. [12:14] Purple? Yeah, I'm a purple guy, but purple has a broad range. And so it's very hard to define exactly where in purple.

I kind of like the range, you know, and sometimes it's like more of a reddish purple, more bluish. [12:27] But yeah, I... [12:28] I also... [12:30] think it's amazing when people are great at color theory. I am not. No. I [12:36] I know enough to know that I'm not amazing at color theory, but I have the utmost respect for those that are. You haven't gotten your color... [12:44] waves checked you know that's like a thing too uh like if i'm what tetra chromatic hair isn't like if you're like it's a i think it's like a korean thing where they like color theory you and like see what your aura is and what colors you should be wearing they're yours no i don't think so um but no i mean i think that uh [13:02] composition and color.

[13:04] It's like a real skill and a bunch of people really try and train for this and [13:10] Some people have got it to the degree that, [13:13] that others don't and it's amazing when you find them. We're going to take it even more serious. Okay. Okay. You were recently on [13:22] mafia oh yeah you made it to game three you're now the star of the show [13:26] Dylan! [13:27] How does it feel to be killed on the first try? Um, to be specific, so there's game one where I was killed by the mafia the first night, game two where I was the mafia, and, um...

[13:38] Definitely did not play my best game. I'll be real. And then game three made a decent argument, but not my best work either and got killed by the village first night. [13:50] And so, yeah, not the best showing, but it was a lot of fun. And I was re-watching the third episode, and I think the star is actually Palmer. [13:59] Yeah. [14:00] Until the very end when he smirks, [14:02] Sorry, spoilers for your listeners. [14:04] But at the very end, he kind of smirks when he's like almost one. That was the first time I was going, oh, I would have figured it out.

[14:13] The other two I would have figured out because they had tells. [14:16] The Palmer [14:17] There was like... [14:18] Nothing. He was just the same energy throughout. So I was pretty wowed. [14:21] watching it. [14:22] What have you learned about [14:25] human psychology from that uh from mafia i i think there's not much to learn about human psychology from mafia [14:33] I played a decent amount of Mafia or Werewolf, you know, same game. People have religious wars around what to call it. [14:41] But [14:43] Yeah, I think that... [14:46] you know, [14:47] Probably that people's attention spans are short, that you can diverge [14:51] and kind of divert conversation.

[14:53] At some point, I stopped playing the game, actually. Mm-hmm. [14:57] Because I figured out that it was a lose-lose. [15:00] Either you actually do well and you've like lost. [15:04] Because people afterwards oftentimes are like, how could you? I trusted you. [15:09] It's like I feel terrible or you've like literally lost like I did those games. And so I prefer to moderate and definitely out of practice. [15:19] It's a fun one. It's super fun. And it was really cool that Solana did that. I think he's... [15:24] had that vision [15:26] for a long time and I just give them all the credit for like making it happen that way.

Totally. I think more people gotta do that. They just gotta take a big risk and a big swing and just go for it. I mean I think that that'll be kind of like a through line of most of our conversation because [15:39] There's like so many attempts right now of like building a brand in the abyss of like [15:44] templated ai literally everywhere and so whether it's like comms marketing media brand product like we're kind of like stuck in this like bell curve the middle yeah so how should people especially [15:59] escape what I kind of call like the permanent underclass of zero taste.

[16:06] As a perfect like meme fusion there. [16:09] Uh, [16:10] We'll have to steal it for our marketing. I think [16:15] Basically, first of all, there's a taste and there's sort of the distribution comment. They're very separate. [16:21] Um, [16:23] I think that first it's important to acknowledge, like if you just use an LM for everything, [16:28] and have it literally [16:30] you know, [16:31] tell you how it wants to go build a thing, how to go design a thing. [16:35] you're going to get something that it wants to give you.

[16:38] And it's kind of diverged that point. [16:40] from whatever's in your head [16:42] to however it processed it. [16:44] I do think through workflows, we have something called Figma Weave, for example, [16:48] where you can take model outputs and you can pass them through a workflow and really steer it along the way. [16:53] And that can get you closer to, I think, non deterministic generative workflows [16:58] that get closer to intent and are systematic. But in general, yeah, people that are just like, yeah, design me the thing. [17:07] you know, you're going to get the average and it's not going to stand out.

[17:11] And in a world where there's just more than ever in terms of software and media, [17:17] and advertising and content. [17:20] you know this better than anyone. Potential economy is real. [17:23] uh, [17:24] Staying out's hard. [17:26] And I think that [17:28] It takes not only human steering and human intent, but... [17:33] but also it takes a point of view. [17:36] And I think that is something that people fall down on all the time. [17:40] Because it's kind of scary to have a point of view. [17:43] like a real point of view and to be bold and to take a risk.

And so I'm hopeful [17:49] And actually, I think there's good early signs that's everywhere right now. [17:53] that [17:54] Folks are already internalizing this, even if they can't speak about it, like... [17:58] in the same words. [17:59] yet. Uh, [18:01] and they're already kind of from the market. [18:03] teaching them [18:05] realizing they have to go take these bolder bets, bigger swings. [18:10] and as they do that i think they're going to uh really unlock just this explosion of creativity [18:15] and we're going to see [18:17] Um, [18:18] you know, so many things tried that haven't been tried before.

And so that's something that like, I cannot wait for. [18:25] This episode is brought to you by Brex, my favorite. You become what you spend on, and I refuse to spend my time on work that shouldn't exist. Expense reports, receipt chasing, and manual closes. The companies building what's next from Vercel, OpenAI, Anthropic, Granola, and DeepGram are [18:46] all made the same call they all run on brex brex is the intelligent finance platform that combines cards expenses and banking into a single stack with agentic finance built in ai agents that handle expenses automatically

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Visit com slash S-O-U-R-C-E-R-Y. [19:52] There was a tweet that you posted retweeting a graph of like number of apps that are being released and then the actual usage of those apps. We actually just like I talked about that with Mark Pincus. He's. [20:06] super product guy, he definitely pays attention to that. But in that point, you were saying execution is cheap, but design and creativity are actually very, very important and separates [20:18] the wheat from the chaff, [20:19] But in terms of that, like what kind of risks should people be taking?

Like what do you see is kind of like overlooked right now? [20:27] I think so much is overlooked. I mean, everything from like what... [20:31] problem are even tackling. [20:33] to how do you brand people? [20:36] What positions do you take as a company? [20:39] Uh, [20:40] how do you connect with people and what emotions are you trying to bring through your brand and marketing but also through your application software and then for the software side I think [20:52] I'm just eager to see... [20:54] not only more interaction patterns tried, [20:57] But really folks, [20:59] understanding like [21:01] What?

[21:01] is the core thing that people need [21:03] And... [21:04] pushing all the way to get there. [21:06] it's so much easier to apply patterns that you've already seen. [21:10] But, [21:10] I think that there's just like this huge [21:13] unexplored space out there [21:15] of stuff that, you know, it takes a long time to get right. [21:19] and that is a risk because you might not actually hit. But [21:24] If you can actually go all the way and think through the system [21:28] really well and hold it in your head.

[21:30] and hold it in your team's head, which is even harder. [21:34] Um, [21:35] to communicate it. You kind of have to memefy it inside your company sometimes. [21:38] But if you can do that and you can come up with more novel ways for people to interact with systems, [21:44] That's where I think... [21:46] you know, it'll really be amazing. [21:49] And [21:50] For example, is [21:52] I'm still shocked. [21:54] that were in a prom teenage. Like... [21:57] It's been, what, five years since GPT-3 now? [22:02] I think it's 2021, June 2021, GP3.

Really? I think so. [22:06] Uh, and that's crazy. Yeah. And like, we're still prompting away. [22:11] There are other ways to explore weight in space. [22:15] I just think that the interfaces for how you interact with models will evolve so much. [22:20] It's the degree that models are part of software [22:23] We will see a ton of exploration there. When we're talking about brand and personality and forming trust, AI has really stopped a lot of trust in technology and just kind of like mainstream media. It's like. [22:40] I think it's like literally worse than ice.

So what builds a trusted brand? [22:47] Well, [22:48] AI, first of all, I would say is really a bimodal case, right? [22:53] Because you've got folks that are literally, in the case of [22:56] you know, a 4-0 or clawed [22:58] like in love with the model. [23:01] And I don't just mean like they really like its outputs. [23:04] like they have affection for the model uh i would say that's trust uh and then you've got people that are like this taken it could take my job i'm listening to things people are saying about [23:15] how it's going to destroy the world or the economy or whatever and doom and [23:20] And so that couldn't be further apart.

[23:24] Like the super fans versus the super detractors. [23:27] But in terms of just generally brand, [23:29] Um, [23:30] I think it's consistency over time. [23:32] And how do you actually show up in a way that people can expect, can model in their heads, [23:38] and keep [23:41] living your values, keep showing up the right way, [23:46] and really doing things with the [23:49] customers' interests at heart. [23:52] If you're not doing that, what are you doing? Yeah. So I also go back to... [23:58] a line that Tim O'Reilly would always say.

My first internship [24:02] Professionally, it was like at O'Reilly Media and [24:06] I loved it there. There were... [24:07] amazing to me. [24:09] And I'm so grateful for them. [24:11] Tim O'Reilly would always talk about create more value than you capture. [24:16] And I think that is... [24:18] extremely important and [24:20] when you're perceiving... [24:21] you know, singletons for AI, folks that... [24:25] you perceive might want to become monoliths and they're not saying that they're not going to want to do that. [24:30] there's going to kind of be like a black hole and suck it all up, which I'm sure that that's not going to be what ends up happening.

[24:39] I think that they're all going to get a lot smarter than that. And I think most don't even want to do that in the first place. [24:46] But [24:47] Yeah. [24:48] you know, the, [24:49] definition of a platform is that you're creating even more value outside of the platform. [24:55] than you are from the platform itself. This is also the Microsoft definition. [25:00] It's like, what's the GDP of everything created on Windows? [25:04] back when Windows was the top priority of Microsoft. [25:08] They wanted that. [25:10] sort of GDP...

[25:12] of stuff built on Windows to be greater than the revenue of their Windows line. [25:17] And I think that's a really special way to think about ecosystem. [25:21] And [25:22] Yeah, overall, the more that I think we lean into that kind of mindset, [25:27] as an industry and AI companies are vocal about that and show that, then I think people have more trust. [25:34] the doomerism has to stop as well. And it has to stop with good rationale. You know, we have to come up with the best arguments we can [25:44] for [25:45] not what can go wrong, but how we're going to go address it and paint an optimistic future.

[25:50] vision for humanity. [25:52] Right. I've been seeing a shift in sentiment towards productivity, not job loss. And so while like, I guess it's weird, but kind of the new North Star is to have more agents than employees, because they'll help equip your employees and you'll run faster, you'll be able to do more as an organization, you can be more on the offensive side, which I think you and Figma have been doing really well. [26:22] that employees, obviously they're going to sell them, but still. Yeah, it's a little different. It's a little bit different, but I'm curious from your standpoint, as the proliferation of AI agents increase, like how does that change?

[26:34] the internal dynamics of software and how you're selling and the products you're creating and all that. [26:40] Um... [26:41] I think that [26:42] There's a bunch of ways this could play out, and so we'll have to see. [26:46] But [26:47] overall, [26:48] First, I think it's not even clear how do you define... [26:53] the unit of an agent. Yeah. So that's kind of a difficult one. But [26:58] Yeah, in general, [27:00] it should be the case that there's [27:03] great services that you offer if folks are trying to do inference, [27:07] and [27:08] use AI with your software and your platform.

[27:12] that should result in like value to the customer. [27:16] Um, [27:16] And it should be the case that that's driven, I think, by humans. [27:20] Um... [27:22] Overall, I think that [27:23] humans being the loop will be the way that you steer towards the best outcomes. [27:27] Uh, and I think that, uh, [27:30] all my experience with the ice so far, [27:33] have shown that on formal domains, things that are verifiable, you can get to amazing outcomes with enough IQ points. [27:42] and yet judgment [27:44] is like somehow [27:46] not purely correlated with just adding IQ points to the model.

[27:52] design certainly does not seem to be correlated with adding IQ points to the model. [27:57] These seem to be other capabilities that you have to figure out how to train. [28:01] And [28:02] Judgment. [28:03] I'm really [28:05] curious about in particular [28:07] um, [28:08] Because... [28:09] Yeah, just intuitively... [28:11] you know, the folks that are really good at strategy, [28:14] Like I have not even found with humans the common characteristic of how to go find them. [28:20] Um, [28:21] in design, I think, [28:23] you know, [28:24] how do you teach a model true empathy?

[28:27] for a user? How do you make it so that they can [28:30] not just read a transcript of a user interview, [28:34] But [28:35] understand the relationships that user has [28:39] uh, [28:40] the inflections in their voice when they're talking about the problems they have and how it matters. [28:45] Um... [28:46] and connect that with their world. [28:49] and actually [28:50] have that empathy for their worldview and where they're coming from to build for them, I think it's really hard. [28:56] What is the biggest question right now that people should be asking?

Actually, I think that... [29:02] you know, for [29:04] recording this on a Tuesday [29:06] Maybe I haven't looked at the news this morning. Maybe it's already a different question, but [29:11] As of right now, we've got [29:13] Um, [29:14] a live situation with US government, Anthropic, where [29:18] They're discussing a... [29:19] jailbreak. [29:21] I'm not even sure if jailbreak is the right word, but the use case they're concerned about seems important. [29:26] Mm-hmm. [29:27] But I would say that jailbreaking is something that is... [29:31] understudied, [29:33] And. [29:35] I actually think that there needs to be a kind of different posture towards [29:39] trying to get people to jailbreak models in order to battle test them.

The same way that we do with HackerOne. [29:47] There are programs that are being run by the labs, of course, but [29:50] uh, [29:51] I think that [29:52] There needs to be way more incentive out there to do that, and we need to find what it means [29:57] Like, [29:57] Jailbreaks. [29:59] are [29:59] very wide in terms of the spectrum of what they do. [30:02] you know, [30:04] And... [30:06] I don't think we can have a conversation like this without even like defining what a jailbreak is. [30:10] So that's one question I would say, is what's a jailbreak?

[30:13] You seem to be doing some jailbreaking yourself, so... [30:17] - What is your process for that? - I don't know, what is a jailbreak? So... No, I mean, I think that there's a period of time where I enjoyed [30:26] Just like trying to figure out how models worked, reasoned from the outside end. I'm more enjoying now just like, [30:35] with open weight models looking at interpretability research and whatnot, when you can actually get access to compute for that, it's pretty fun. [30:45] But... [30:46] uh, [30:48] Overall, I think [30:50] You know, it's I mean, just just talking with models.

[30:54] long enough. [30:55] leads to states that you could call a jailbreak. [30:58] for basically the model. [31:00] But again, what is jailbreak? [31:03] It's not like you have to do some fancy JSON thing. [31:07] Like that's what people like to popularize it online with, but [31:10] I mean, you can just talk to them and ask them questions. [31:12] Thank you. [31:13] Are you token maxing? [31:15] Yeah. [31:16] I think that... [31:19] Yes and no? Like, I... [31:22] Try to have for stuff that I'm... [31:26] working on like [31:27] Oftentimes I'm trying to get the agent running longer as long as it's got a defined goal.

But... [31:33] Yeah, I mean, I could be running like an agent swarm or something and I'm not doing that. We have plenty of people at Figma that are and are getting great results, though. [31:42] It's amazing how much we can do there. [31:45] when you have folks that really understand the infrastructure that they're trying to build, [31:49] and [31:50] they go and they're already 10x and they can 10x themselves again by having the agents really [31:56] break up tasks properly. [31:58] So one thing that was really interesting, I had an interview with Daniel Strachman from Teal Fellowship, like maybe a year ago now.

She's wonderful, by the way. She's so cool. That was a really fun interview. The one thing that she brought up, and she named you, I think a couple of times in the interview, but you were an early Teal Fellow. [32:22] Um, [32:23] she said that you were hyperfluent. I mean, even you talking about LOMs right now and like AI, like you're definitely more in the weeds than I think common folk. So like, why, why do you think it's important to have that trait of like, [32:35] deep curiosity and hyperfluency. [32:38] How did that develop?

I just think the world's amazing. [32:43] Yeah. [32:44] I don't know. I kind of just look at anything and I'm pretty much interested in it. [32:49] Um, [32:50] So I don't have a great answer, but... [32:53] Definitely. [32:54] Like, [32:55] If you're not always learning or finding a way to learn, [32:59] from [33:00] any conversation, anything that you can encounter [33:03] It's like, [33:04] Well, why not? There's just so much interesting stuff out there in the world. [33:09] And so, [33:10] I feel like we get such limited time on Earth, let's make the most of it and [33:14] and try to learn and connect the dots and figure out how to create some frameworks around what's happening and [33:19] than break them, you know, it's just [33:22] Just like a great mystery that we're alive and what's out there.

[33:26] Today's episode is sponsored by VCX by Fundrise, the public ticker for private tech, allowing investors of all sizes to invest in venture capital. [33:36] Learn more at com. [33:40] Some of you may not have heard this yet, but our sponsor Public just launched something called Generated Assets, and it brings AI into investing in a way I've honestly never seen before. Here's how it works. You type in an idea like AI-powered supply chain companies with positive free cash flow or defense tech companies growing revenue over 25% year over year. Public's AI then dispatches a swarm of agents that scan every single US stock, evaluates them, and instantly builds a custom [34:10] why each stock is included.

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Visit com slash sorcery. That's D-E-E-L dot com slash sorcery. [34:55] What did you learn the most while you were a TEAL Fellow? What was that like? [35:00] It was... [35:03] a really special experience overall. [35:05] I was the second year of the Teal Fellowship, so... [35:09] 2012. [35:10] Um... [35:12] or sorry, rather, I started [35:14] Yeah, started in 2012. [35:16] And it's a two-year fellowship, so... [35:18] the class I was with [35:20] I got to know well and they're doing amazing stuff and still some of them are really dear friends.

[35:26] Um... [35:27] And there's also folks from the first class, too, who have stayed in my life as close friends and [35:33] people who have been mentors and [35:36] people I've looked to for advice on all sorts of things. [35:41] you know, [35:42] the amount of learning from that group off the charts. But also I think it's just so lonely [35:47] to start a company when you're younger. Like I was doing an internship at Flipboard before the Teal Fellowship and at Flipboard, uh, [35:56] It was awesome. [35:58] My coworkers were great.

I hung out with them, but they're like in their 30s. [36:01] And I was 20. Yeah. [36:03] And just, you know, my friends hadn't graduated yet. [36:07] I grew up in the Bay Area, but my friends in the North Bay, they were doing their own thing. [36:11] And it kind of was further to go. [36:14] the chance to just be with this group of people and socialize with them. Like, [36:20] for me was very important. Some people probably don't need that, but I don't know, like once a week seen a human.

And other than my co-founder, you know, who I loved dearly. But, you know, his preference in the weekend was to work on his compiler project. That's how he unwound. You know, he was special, special brain, total genius. [36:41] But yeah, for me, that was like... [36:44] the biggest value that I did not even expect [36:47] from that program. [36:48] 100k over two years amazing [36:51] but the community was just even more special. [36:54] We're going to go for a curveball right now. Okay. [36:57] I know all of that is super fun, but we have this urgent question from Elad Gil.

Yeah. Or Elad. [37:04] I don't know how you like to pronounce it. [37:07] It's a great controversy itself. It really is. I started my interview with it, and I'm pretty sure I mispronounced it both times. Like, I guess there's like four ways to pronounce it. He's very accepting is the good news. [37:19] So... [37:20] Are you ready for this? I don't know. [37:23] I'm like laughing and I haven't even said it yet. Okay. Um, [37:27] Composure. [37:30] Dylan. [37:32] How can a man who is so skinny... [37:36] live a life so fat, [37:39] I don't know.

[37:41] P-H-A-T, the fat. [37:44] *laughs* [37:45] Thank you. [37:46] With great mentorship from Elad Gill. [37:50] What sparked that question? What is the question? I don't know what that means. I genuinely don't know, but he sent it, so I asked it. I think it's a compliment. I'm going to take it as a compliment. I think you're living well. What does that mean? [38:04] I love that. Okay. And then we have some from Christian Garrett too. Okay. [38:09] Um... [38:11] Well, these aren't as, no offense, Christian, these aren't as fun as that one.

[38:17] So, Figma is on a tear. Last earnings really proved it. We talked about this with Mark Pincus, too. What are people missing about AI? [38:27] and enterprise software. [38:29] Mm. [38:31] I think that [38:33] First of all, like there's, you know, markets snap to narratives. [38:36] Right now, the narrative seems to be like software is, you know, kaput. Good time to buy, not investment advice. But I think that... [38:45] a lot of software will do just fine or actually even amazing. Um, [38:50] And so then it's like, what are the properties of that software?

Well, [38:55] I think that network effects matter. [38:57] I think [38:59] network effects can show up not just in social and human situations, but in collaboration or social networks. [39:07] but also in marketplace liquidity. That is its own network effect. [39:12] I think the sort of distribution of customer base matters. [39:17] Um, [39:18] And I would say that boring software is not to be undercounted or things that people would call boring. I wouldn't call it boring, but probably... [39:29] There are just so many things that you can find. [39:33] where [39:34] the folks who are living the problem every day.

[39:37] don't have that default impulse to go build software for it, and yet it's a huge problem. [39:43] And finally, I would say that like, [39:46] the data liquidity that you can establish and how that can create context. [39:49] how that context can create capability in a system, [39:52] That is its own flywheel. [39:54] And if you get that flywheel right, I think it's [39:57] very value agreeing to the customer. [40:00] in a way that can be extremely useful. [40:04] So that's a lot of the stuff that I'm thinking about.

[40:07] And everyone is your customer. [40:09] That's what I've learned. I'm not sure everyone, but we were lucky to have a lot of great software companies and companies around the world using Figma. So let's talk about the evolution a little bit. This is another one of Christian's questions, but Figma evolved to platform from design to code to development and now multi-product expansion. So where's the platform going next? [40:33] Um, [40:34] I think... [40:36] both [40:37] There's the impulse and the, like, quest... [40:40] of how do you take these surfaces and bring them all together?

[40:44] when you are leaning more into AI and generation, [40:47] There's a huge opportunity in doing that in one place and not having to think about where do I start. [40:52] And so that's something that I've always wanted to accomplish with Figma. [40:55] it's extremely hard. And then there's also the question of like, how broad can you go in terms of serving all the needs of a designer? [41:03] which are growing and vast. [41:05] I mean, designers here, I mean, it's the feedback we used to get from developers now. And so [41:10] I think that if we can kind of do both of those and find ways to, [41:14] help people create their own tools on the platform, share them with their team, [41:20] and get value out of that, that'll be really awesome.

[41:23] Lastly. Yeah. [41:25] Well, not really, lastly, but from Christian. [41:28] Why are you so bullish on SpaceX? [41:31] Let's talk about SpaceX in the pentagon now, I'm sure. Is SpaceX in the room with us right now? Are they? [41:38] Well, [41:39] First of all, I think there's tons to be seen on, you know, AI and their cloud business, I guess. [41:45] I really don't know how to read that, so let me just remove all that for a moment, the XAI part of it. [41:52] and instead just talk about the non-XAI part of it.

[41:56] I mean, SpaceX... [41:58] is a great example of a company where you've got amazing talent, [42:02] who are, I think, really missionary. [42:05] And that talent, you know, goes and [42:10] quests and conquers after challenge after challenge after challenge [42:14] And I think that people lack imagination when it comes to [42:18] what they can do on earth and also what they can do [42:22] in the stars and how important space can be [42:25] in the long term. [42:26] And I think that there's many categories that folks don't think of them going into.

[42:32] which, [42:33] they will go into probably. [42:35] uh and i i [42:37] I believe it could be a very, very... [42:39] Important company. [42:41] you know, for this century or the next. So... [42:44] I hope Figma can follow too. [42:46] Elon Musk once said, "If a product is special enough, it needs no logo." [42:51] What do you think about that? - I actually think that that's right, but also if the product is that special, [42:57] uh, [42:58] then I think it's probably got enough brand characteristics that it kind of functions as a logo.

And so, for example, a Tesla car. [43:06] Like, can you take the Tesla logo off a Tesla car? Sure. [43:09] But like you probably still know the Tesla. [43:11] And if you don't, that's a problem for Tesla. And also they have a logo. [43:18] But yeah, I think that overall brand systems [43:21] you can do a lot with them and [43:24] There are many ways that brands can show up to people. It was just a part of it. [43:29] As we close out, Sorcery is proud to be sponsored by Brex, and they're all about performance and spending smarter, moving faster as a startup or a large enterprise.

I think performance really comes down to who you surround yourself with and like who you get inspired by, maybe who's mentored you along the way. Are there anybody in your circle or like on your career path of building out Figma that's really inspired you? So many. How long do we have? [43:56] I mean, look, like... [43:58] There are people that have mentored me and have no idea because it's from... [44:02] before Figma times and, uh, [44:04] Maybe we didn't interact as much during the building of Figma, but like their voices in my head.

[44:09] uh, [44:10] You know, so folks from O'Reilly, LinkedIn, [44:13] Um, [44:14] Microsoft Research, [44:16] I think that during Figma, [44:18] The folks that I've got on the board have been incredible. [44:22] And I'm very thankful for them, but also our employees. [44:25] you know, [44:26] our first manager hire show, [44:29] director of engineering at the time. He really taught me management. I didn't know anything. I was an intern before Figma. [44:36] And just in general, I mean, we've had interns that have [44:40] taught me stuff, uh, [44:41] We've had folks from anywhere in the org that I think you can learn from.

[44:46] and also the community and just the folks that have surrounded us with great feedback. I mean, I'm so grateful early on, but today as well. [44:55] for the designers have sat down with me and given me that gift of feedback. We are very lucky as a design company. [45:01] uh, [45:02] to have designers as users. [45:04] and customers. [45:05] because they are trained to give good feedback. So the feedback we get is so much better. [45:10] than like your average feedback that a company gets. And I never take that for granted.

And I always count as a blessing. But yeah, I look for mentorship everywhere. And I'm very, very grateful for it. Amazing. I think Michael mentioned that you really like Alan. Alan Kay is awesome. And [45:31] design thinkers that I also think are incredible [45:36] Looking back, but also I think that [45:38] Um, [45:39] we need to get back to the sort of work that was done [45:43] you know, [45:44] backed by [45:46] sort of 60s through 80s timeframe. [45:50] in terms of just what are the fundamental ways to think about [45:55] using a computer in the first place.

[45:57] uh, [45:58] And what are the possibilities? I think the only place we're seeing it right now [46:02] is kind of in VR. [46:04] where [46:06] it's really seen the gaming context but there are new interaction paradigms being created there [46:10] And [46:11] That can exist in software too. [46:14] Probably the last big one. [46:16] that people reference if you just gotta look for the consensus within is pull to refresh [46:22] Like, we can go further. [46:24] Um... [46:25] And if you look at an iPad, like why is it a big iPhone?

[46:29] You know, I think that there's so much more you can do with touch technology, but also... [46:35] with just more pervasive computing. And also, as you go beyond that into the world of [46:43] AI and different devices, different form factors. [46:48] I think the future of design and interactivity is really going to be fun. [46:52] Like snap specs. [46:54] We'll see. Yeah. Well, awesome. Thank you so much, Dylan. I know you're so busy right now. There's 10,000 people waiting to come in the doors. This is the emptiest. We'll see it.

But it's a lot of fun. And I'm excited for the config. And I'm thankful that you're here. Thank you. Appreciate it. Hey, it's Molly. If you enjoy our interviews, check out our newsletter, vc, where we deliver a once a week top deals and tech headlines email and also go deeper on our podcast interviews. Subscribe to Sorcery today. [47:24] forget to subscribe to the podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen. Link in description to sign up.