NBA Draft Questions, Harper vs. Fox, and the USMNT’s World Cup Ceiling

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So you have all that to look forward to. All those movies are on Netflix. [01:27] by the way, as well. I'm going to be on Netflix on Sunday night with Zach Lowe. We might have a mystery third with us as well. So probably 5, 6 m. ET range we'll be going. [01:40] live for an hour and a half getting you ready for a big NBA week that's coming. Speaking of, Tim Legler is coming up in one second. We're going to be talking about the draft, what we learned from the finals, how does that help team building, predictions, all kinds of things.

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See com/rewards terms, credit card points subject to issuers, [02:59] terms, and conditions. [03:26] All right, so we're recording. [03:31] Epic time. Tim Legler is here. He did not join us during the finals because he was calling the finals. And we were coming... [03:36] Live after every finals game. [03:38] I want to, what's, [03:40] I want to do some draft NBA stuff. And then at the end of this, I want to talk about what it was like to be there for such crazy series. [03:46] I was so excited today. [03:48] I read that you're involved with the NBA draft this year for ESPN.

I had this whole plan for stuff to talk about. [03:54] I didn't know you were prepped for the draft. This is unbelievable. Well, listen, to be full disclosure, I'm not fully. I still have a few days to get there because this was kind of also a late in the game ad for me to be part of it. I mean, it's fun. It's exciting. But at the same time, yeah, like there's a lot to acclimate yourself with. And I've been doing nothing, honestly, over the last couple of days but watching a lot of film on a lot of guys.

I saw my new, seen enough of, kind of had a feel. [04:24] Guys, you know, to really get into the weeds, you need to see more film on guys. And then there was a bunch of other dudes when you start getting down, you know, anywhere from 10 through 30 because I'm just doing the first night. So, yeah, I'll be involved with the first round. So, like, you got a lot of catch up to do. So I'm kind of in the midst of doing that more or less. [04:42] I did the draft two years and I had an incredible amount of fun.

[04:46] just diving a half hour on each guy and then basically making a decision on how I felt. [04:51] One of the drafts I had, Giannis, and I'm like, [04:55] I don't know, man. He looks pretty good, but it looked like he was playing against 13-year-olds. You know what? I'm going to tell you something, though. Here's the truth. You know the new thing, and I don't think this always was the case, but the new thing is with the draft is the player comps. Yep. Right? So drop a player name. And it's funny because I'm looking, and so in my research and in my film work, and I'm pulling different stuff up, and you're seeing different player comps dropped by whatever source.

I'm not going to get into those, but whatever the source may be, [05:25] Thank you. [05:25] And I'm just like, man, [05:27] I don't like these. I don't like the cops because I feel like I really feel like you're either. [05:34] As an analyst, you're either going way out on a limb, [05:37] Like, damn, man, that's a big reach because we have, you have no idea. [05:43] Ultimately, [05:43] how a guy is going to swim at the next level. [05:46] And a lot, there's a lot that goes into that, man, like fit early, just heart work ethic, handling pressure, maturity.

And like, you can do all the homework you want. You don't know, man, until those guys put an NBA uniform on. So some of these comps, I'm going, wow, okay, that's a big bite. But then there's other guys I'll be like, oh, that's not fair enough to the guy. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think the comp is enough. So, and I feel like either way, five years from now, like you set yourself up to just get absolutely taken apart. [06:16] a cop out there of some guy that's like a perennial all-star and dudes bust.

You're going to hear about that in a big way. I'm not a big fan of the cops. I have some bad news for you. [06:29] Bye. [06:30] I was the one, my draft, that was my big idea for the 2013 draft to do the players' comps. I'm Dr. Oppenheimer of this whole thing. Wait, are you the guy? I was. You're the guy? I was Dr. Oppenheimer. That was my big idea. I was like, each player will do a comp of whatever. And then the second year I did it, we blew it out even further.

So you're that guy. I am. I started it. Oppenheimer in the movie, he stares off and he's seen math theorems and all that stuff. Yeah. You're seeing former players. [06:59] Just bouncing around in your head. I thought it would be a good way for the audience to understand what they were doing. We did it for the Grantland Draft Guide. We did it for the Ringer Draft Guide. [07:08] It's, it's really hard because if you do the wrong comp or you, you don't put enough thought into it, it can go as sideways as possible.

Have you changed your opinion then on, on, on like even giving the cops, like, you know where I've gone? Unless it's just blatantly obvious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [07:25] I rarely do. It's almost like there's pieces of different guys, right? Like when I watch Caleb Wilson... [07:32] And I just, his, you can watch 20 minutes of him on YouTube and, [07:36] think he's going to be one of the best 15 porters of all time. Just see the way it's edited. You're like, oh my god, this guy's Giannis crossed with Bam. [07:46] And the problem with this stuff is you're seeing like the absolute – [07:50] best of the best.

It's the greatest hits of whatever the college season was, which is why you have to go watch the last five minutes of different games to really do this correctly. You got to see them in different presser situations. That's a great point. And the other thing is, [08:06] The guys that you're comparing them to when they get the comp, that's that guy at his very best. [08:13] And you're going, okay, with these guys, most of these guys are 19. Right. Like, man, you know, so whatever. If there's some things that are clearly obvious with their physical profile, [08:23] And maybe...

[08:25] In addition to like, sort of like stylistically. Okay. But like, that's the problem I have is you start throwing out guys that are, [08:32] You know, every year an All-Star, Hall of Famer, [08:35] all-league players from the past. I'm like, man, that's a lot. [08:39] for a dude that's 19 when you just go back and look at the last 15 years of the draft there's a lot of dudes that were picked in the top 10 and that you can't that had all kinds of comps from all-star players from the past yeah and a lot of those guys weren't even in the league in three or four years [08:55] With all that said, if you watch Darren Peterson's high school tape, he kind of looks like Kobe.

Like, those are the comps where you're like... [09:02] And he kind of looks like Kobe. Like, like that's, I don't know. Is that a player comp or is that just what my eyes are telling me? I, uh, [09:10] I have gravitated. I've been fascinated by the draft my whole life. And even doing it those couple years was really helpful. But I've landed at the point... [09:19] I really value what I just watched in the playoffs. [09:22] when I think toward the draft. And that's where I've landed the last couple of years.

And I feel like there's... [09:27] Basically like three buckets of players. [09:30] And... [09:31] I want to figure out, like, just the pure studs, right? The first four guys in this draft... [09:37] I think Flagg was like this. Dylan Harper was like, just like these guys are studs. They're going to make it. They're going to be at very least starters. They have all NBA potential. Like that's a bucket. [09:48] And then I think the next group for me is playoff guys. And playoff guys to me means wings that can... [09:54] defend and hit threes and not hurt you offensively, but can switch on defense and just can fit in a series.

Bigs who can defend the rim and rebound and maybe even stretch the floor a little. And then guards that [10:07] can give you offense and not kill you. Basically, those three buckets as playoff guys. And if you look at the draft last year, [10:14] Murray Boyles, I think, went, what did he go, nine or ten? [10:17] Yeah, 10th, I think. Maybe 10th. Coward went 9th. [10:21] Um, Carter Bryant, who I thought actually could have prayed probably a little more San Antonio 14th, but we're always taking these guards ahead of these guys.

And sometimes I wonder like, [10:30] Is this just the undervalue over and over again every year? These guys that we know are going to be playoff guys, and yet they always go three, four, five picks too late. [10:38] Yeah, no, I think it's a good point. I also think that Carter Bryant's a fascinating guy to me. And I went to go back to like last summer. First time I saw him had seen a lot of film that I called his first game in Vegas. Yeah. In summer league. And I was like, this guy was he was so much more athletic than everybody else out there.

Yeah. And he's so rangy and bouncy and like hyper energized. And I'm like, man, this is the type of dude. If he figures out how to shoot a little bit, this is the type of guy. [11:08] that you look at down the road for five years as like an elite player. [11:12] elite perimeter defender. And I still think he's got a chance to get there. And the good news for him, his perimeter shooting really came a long way this year. Now, you know, and Mitch Johnson clearly shrunk trust [11:24] a little bit once they got deeper into the postseason.

And look, he did play in the one game we called, you know, against Jalen, three straight possessions. And Jalen Brunson just went right into the paint and just bodied him up and footworked him to death and made three straight buckets. And it was demoralizing probably for this young kid. But look, my point is, [11:42] he's another dude that we didn't talk much about because we were spending so much time on Harper. [11:47] This is another guy they got that's going to be a big part of their future. There's no question in my mind.

Yeah, and that's a guy that in a playoff series, he makes sense to me. [11:54] It's clearly like a four. He could guard different positions. So when I look at like Rez Johnson on Michigan, [12:01] And he's all over the place, right? Like he's, in our draft guide, he's 13. I've seen him in mock drafts. He's like, [12:07] 10 to 14. And yet he's the kind of guy like, okay, so you'll take him at 12. And he'd be like, of course, of course, of course they took him. That's going to be a, yeah.

[12:15] Who it is. But let's do, we can talk about some of the neat stuff later. The top four is so much fun. [12:22] And I'm always a big... [12:24] Take the guy that you think is the best guy. [12:27] Like, figure it out. You have months and months to study these guys, how they would fit in with your team. Just go out on a limb and take your guy. This is one of the only times I ever remember looking at a top four like this and thinking, I'd kind of be okay trading down to four.

[12:43] Like if I was Utah at two and I couldn't decide, it's like I might be okay moving backwards two spots. [12:48] and getting even more stuff if somebody was super excited about Peterson. But who's your favorite out of these four? [12:54] DeBonsa is my guy. DeBonsa is the guy. I believe that. I think that'll be the pick. That should be the pick. I think what we're hoping for, you know, is that he's enthused. [13:04] about the situation. I mean, he's hard to tell. He's very stoic. He actually came into the green room in, I think we're in San Antonio.

[13:12] I don't remember what game during the finals. He happened to be there that day. They brought him in. I think his dad, they came in and we met him and talked to him a little bit. And I was joking. I'm like, hey, man, I give you good restaurants in Washington, but it's been 30 years since I played there, 26 years. So I think they probably changed. We had kind of had a joke about it. [13:28] He's a very serious guy, man. And I'm just like, maybe that's just kind of how he's wired.

Because I know a lot of people read into when the lottery happened and the Wizards got the first pick and he was there and they showed him and he just looked so serious, borderline unhappy. And I just was like, man, let's just give him a little bit of slack here. This is overwhelming to him. He has now gone from, you know, in the last two years, you think about you're trying to find your way as a high school player, hitting the AAU circuit, climbing the charts. [13:58] of number one pick in the draft.

[14:00] going to a team that hasn't won a lot in a long time, it's a lot to process. And maybe people are viewing you a certain way. So I'm not going to read into that. He's the guy because I think what he could do from a skill standpoint combined with the physicality that he brings and some of those metrics, that combination and versatility in his game, I feel like [14:22] He's got a greater margin to find his lane because I'm not sure exactly what ultimately his ceiling is. But I think he does kind of like everything well.

And he's very athletic and he's strong and he's tough and he seems serious about this. He's a worker. [14:40] He looks like a guy to me that like you go, okay, we bring him in because we think he's the best guy. Not exactly sure how we're going to plug him in, how we're going to use them, what his ultimate strength is primarily early offensively. It doesn't matter because there's a lot to work with. Yeah. I think for me, combination of size, [14:58] the toughness, athleticism with the skill set. I think this is the right pick.

[15:02] I landed there early February. [15:05] I watched these guys for a while, and at some point, it was like, what are we doing? He's got to be the first pick, especially because you don't know what his body's going to look like five years from now. He already looks like he's 26. [15:17] And you think about, you know, some of the guys like the Tatum, Jalen Brown, guys like that, how they grew into these adult bodies by the time they're 25, 26, 27, like the muscle he's going to put on.

[15:28] You play their position. [15:30] By the way, Washington's taking him. That's how this is playing out. They're going to take him. For sure. And he joins a group. I mean, look at their roster and the number of top 10 picks on their roster. They've got a lot of lottery picks there. Fits in with what they have. Developing nicely. He does. And the one thing they don't have, though. [15:48] They do not have a face of the franchise type of guy. They don't. They've got some former number one pick or former lottery picks.

[15:58] And like Sar be the top of those for me. Like he's grown tremendously. I really like his game. But this guy is different because of the nature of the position. This is a guy that you can put the ball in his hands in the open four in the half court. He can go get his own against guys. That's a lot harder for a guy as tall as Alex Sar. [16:18] handle to just go break a guy down. DeBonsa can do it. So they don't have this level of [16:25] of franchise guy even though they've got some really nice young players trey johnson was a guy i loved last year guys are walking bucket yeah but they don't have this this is a different level a guy that with that kind of size that can play off the dribble shoot it go get his own and break guys down they don't have that combination and is that a big spotlight on him for a while it's the

[16:49] You know, there's a piece of me wonders if Boozer also was the right pick for them. [16:53] Um, [16:54] And we always talk with the draft that you always hear, like floor, ceiling, floor, ceiling, high floor, low floor, high ceiling, lower ceiling. [17:03] And Boozer seems like he has both a high floor, but also potentially a high ceiling. [17:09] with his IQ and [17:11] He's just going to produce. I like that way. You put it that way, Bill, because we've seen too many guys in the playoffs, particularly the separation between floor and ceiling.

The variance between floor and ceiling is too great. I don't feel like there's variance with him. Yeah, and the thing I don't like about him— [17:26] He didn't have that little foul line jumper. [17:29] I felt like he would be bowling his way to the basket over and over again when he really wanted to get points, which he could in college. And in the pros, you're not going to do that in the same way. [17:37] But this is the 19-year-old version of him. You think like these guys, I think he has the competitiveness and the work ethic.

I think AJ has it. [17:47] I think Caleb Wilson definitely has it. [17:50] This was a comp, by the way, I did like. Can I tell you the comp I saw that I did kind of like? What was it? With Boozer. [17:58] It's Kevin Love. [18:00] I thought that was a pretty good comp. [18:02] think about Kevin Love at his best in Minnesota before he, you know, he went and, you know, sacrificed a lot to go win. But his first years in Minnesota, think about how productive he was because he's, you know, Boozer's not a guy that's going to play away athletically.

He's more of a grounded game, but I think he's going to stretch his shooting out to be a really consistent, deep NBA shooter. He's already got good shooting range, but that's got to improve. Obviously, it's a huge thing, those extra three, four feet. Like you really have to put some time in. I think [18:32] is his very Kevin Love-like. He's smart. He can outlet the ball quickly because he's got a high IQ off the glass. He gets it out of his hands quick to the guard. That's a Kevin Love trait too.

So like, I don't love a lot of comps. I thought, yeah, Kevin Love. At first I saw it, it's like, let me think about that. And then I started watching more and more film on Boozer. I'm like, you know what? I don't mind that one. [18:51] I loved, like, heavier Kevin Love was one of my favorite rebounders of all time. When he had, like, the extra 20. You couldn't displace him. If he was down there, no. If he got position, it was game over. He wasn't going to jump over you at all.

He just got his back on you, and you was done, man. One of the best offensive rebounders I've ever seen, that earlier version of him. Like, if you think about, like, the great, great, great rebounders that I've seen in person, and I'm sure you played with and against some of these guys, but Moses was an all-timer. Yeah. [19:21] I wrote about this in my book. Moses had this trick where he would kind of go under the basket, almost out of bounds, and then he would just back in backwards, and then he would just be next to the rim tipping it in.

Moses Barkley was incredible. Kevin Love was another one. Kevin Love also did very similarly to the big play in the game, what Mitchell Robinson did to Wemby on that big missed free throw, where they walk guys so deep they can't react to the ball. It gets beyond them. [19:51] Love and Love was great at that. I can see Boozer being that type of rebounder because they're not going to get those ones where you're going to run from point A to point B, cover 20 feet because you're tracking it with your eyes.

And then you just go jump over two guys and get it. They're not going to get those kind. It's got to be done a little bit more with body positioning and then just IQ and just their sense and instincts for the ball. [20:13] so high. So I think, I just think Boozer, to your point, floor is pretty high with him. I'd just be hard to imagine him not being a really impactful NBA player, even if he doesn't turn into a franchise guy, which all 40s top four, who knows, maybe they could.

He might not, but his floor is so high. It's still, he's still going to be a really, really good NBA player. I think he's just going to be excellent. And I said this a week and a half ago, I think Utah is going to take them. [20:43] from watching how Danny Ainge treated the draft for the last 25 years, knowing some of the stuff that you need in Utah. They know his family, obviously, because his dad played there and his dad works for them. [20:56] to have a guy who could be this good who would also be like, yeah, I'm fired up to be in Utah.

I think that matters. [21:02] And I'm not afraid of having him and, [21:05] I love him and Jaron Jackson together. To me, that's a combo that really makes sense. Whether Markkinen's there long-term or not, I don't know. [21:12] And then Kessler... [21:14] As another Schottbacher, he could play with him, too. I just... [21:17] I'm good with doubling down on size over taking Peterson and hoping last year... [21:23] was just a weird year and he's more like the high school Peterson versus the freshman year Peterson. I think Peterson is one of the toughest evaluations ever.

[21:32] we've ever had with this. I don't know what to make of the fact that he got worse [21:36] in college than he was in high school and that he didn't seem as, he doesn't seem as twitchy. He doesn't seem as fast. Um, I don't understand it. I didn't understand the creatine thing. Like, what do you make of all this? [21:48] First of all, I'm just going from the pure, because a lot of the stuff I don't think we have the answers to ourselves, but when you evaluate the guy physically and his tools, translate it to the next level.

He's one of those guys. I watch him, some of the stuff I've watched, I'm like, man, that's NBA ready right now. The guy can flat out score. [22:18] couple of 20 year olds or whatever. He just looks so much more mature in his movements that it's, it's, it's, it's obvious how easy it's coming to him. Well, you can see it on defense too, where just the way he's able to navigate around screens and stuff. He's the highest possible level. [22:35] He's got control, man. But like I'm watching him. I've read stuff where he views himself and maybe some people are evaluating him as like a point guard.

I don't see that. I don't see that. I mean, I think he's, to me, maybe a combo guard that, yeah, you can put him in ball screen. To me, I reserve the phrase point guard for like a different level of understanding of how you're organizing and how easily you're facilitating for other people because you're two steps ahead with any action you run. [23:05] already know two defenders away what that rotation is going to look like and you're now you know what the next pass is going to be and so you're processing all of that in real time i i don't see that when i watch him i see a guy that wants to go score and get his bucket and maybe yeah okay you can run ball screen with him because scorers in this league run ball screen but to use the term point guard like this is going to be a point guard one day that's going to be the guy that's like doing both making the game easy for everybody while he's also going out getting 20 25 a night

[23:35] And a guy that's super confident. I look at all that size up front already that Utah has. A lot of your points are good about Boozer. Like the fact, the connection to the organization, all that. Maybe that matters to them. Maybe it doesn't. And he definitely could play with Jaron Jackson Jr. And it's actually something Jaron Jackson Jr. needs. [23:48] is a guy next to him that can rebound the way Boozer can. Because he's not a big-time rebounder. He likes to block a lot of shots. He spends a lot of time on the perimeter offensively.

He's a terrible rebounder. He's six a game. Yeah. Yeah. But to think, you know, they already have Kessler. They have Markin, who plays a lot of three. That's like another 6'10 and up guy to add to the mix to play, unless they had other plans for some of those guys and they want to move them. And, you know, that's kind of almost beyond my scope of what front offices think sometimes. [24:18] I look at Peterson, I think he's just a natural raw scorer. So you look at the top of the draft, first team that thinks they need that, that's who should take them.

[24:26] I think he's a two-guard. I agree with you. I don't think he's a point guard. Although I do think that line has blurred over the years with the NBA where it's kind of like... [24:34] I don't think Shay's a point guard. [24:36] Right. But he... [24:38] is bringing the ball up a lot. But like you and I, we grew up with like point guards were actually point guards. They, their whole role was like table setter, almost like a host on a studio show or something. Their role is just to make everybody better.

But in the guard position, there are exceptions to it. And you're right. It is blurred more than ever. [24:55] But there are exceptions to it for guys that are [24:58] So dominant. [25:00] Off ball. [25:01] I mean, off of off of their ball handling. They're so dominant that they're dictating terms of the defense all the time. And organically, shots are being created for people, even if it's not necessarily in their direct wheelhouse. I mean, like Steph Curry, be an example. Is he a natural point guard? No, he's a guy that created so much offense to his movement and shooting.

[25:20] And like the depths to which you had to go to guard him, he created offense just organically by being. [25:26] Like Shea with his dribble, Brunson even as a guy, is he a natural come down table setter? No, but he's so good at breaking you down. Organically, stuff is created around him. So you have to be on a certain level. If you're the lead guard, let's call it that because some people prefer that terminology. If you're the lead guard in the NBA and you want to be a contending team, you better be so damn good.

[25:48] Because if it's not your natural thing to find, that you're creating better opportunities to find because you're so talented with the ball. I don't know if he's going to be there or not. It's way too early to know that. [26:00] It's the toughest one. [26:02] Because there's a, I mean, if you're going to say out of all these guys, who's going to haunt anyone that passes them up, it's probably this guy. [26:11] Because I think he has the highest ceiling of anyone. Like he, the high school stuff from a year ago, which I've talked about on previous episodes, is you're just like, oh my God, this...

[26:20] This guy could be like the next guy. [26:22] You know, and I don't know what happened to him in Kansas. [26:25] I really get nervous with red flags before the draft, and I say that knowing that, [26:30] I have a 21-year-old and 18-year-old, and you watch kids change in real time every six months, every nine months. [26:37] all of a sudden you're like, wow, my daughter is completely different than she was six months ago. This is great. I can't believe it. It's like she's an adult. [26:46] So it's so hard.

Very, very true. It's so hard to project this. No, no doubt. And it hits. All of a sudden, you're just kind of like, wow, that's nice. Right. And it's like a friend of mine told me one time. [26:59] We're talking about this parenting stuff. And he said... [27:02] What you have to trust, like as a parent, is that you made those deposits a long time ago. Right. And so in one day, like, wow, it hits. And then you cash in. You're like, hey, it worked. They're a good human being. Like, you know, sometimes along the way, it's hard being a parent.

But like, I think that's what it is. You just trust it. And then you're right with some of these players. [27:23] It's the same thing. This is so difficult, man, because of [27:27] The way that top picks are scrutinized is, [27:31] If there's even... [27:32] Any indication that, [27:34] that you whiffed. [27:35] Early. [27:36] It could be overbearing for the player. Risa Shea. In Atlanta. I think it's sunk him. [27:43] So I'm telling you, Markel Fultz is a guy that I was I was at the curry camp. [27:49] The top 30 camp.

[27:51] the year that he was getting ready to go into his freshman year. And I was watching this guy and the Sixers had the first pick. And so all my friends are Sixers fans. And so I was like, man, I was out there in San Francisco. And I was, you know, I was working drills and doing stations and putting these guys through it, coached in the game. They have an all-star game at the end of the weekend. I coached in the game. Like Darius Garland was in that game. Like, and I'm like watching Markel Fultz.

And I'm like, man, this dude. [28:13] This dude has it. He's got the size. He's got crazy bounce, way more bounce than he ever really even got to show to this point in his NBA career. I would watch him after practice. They would have dunk contests. [28:25] And I'm watching him with these guys and I'm like, this dude is big. He's like, [28:29] powerful he's got a shifty change of pace he's got a nasty step back which is required [28:36] And he's got bounce too. So I'm like, man, and I think going to that market, [28:42] At that time, [28:43] with what the organization had already been through, was, I think, overwhelmed him.

And he had injuries, too, that contributed to it. But I'm just saying, like, these are so important. They're so scrutinized. More than ever before, there's so much at stake for these organizations. And you're trying to determine this off a very limited sample size of work. [29:01] And you have no idea what this is going to look like. [29:03] at the NBA level. And you just pray that these guys want to put the work into the time, just the talent's there. And again, trust your deposits when you draft them. Put the deposits in now, five years from now, we hope this hits.

Some guys obviously sooner than that, some guys never. That's kind of where we're at with these top six, seven, eight, nine, 10 picks. It's tough, man. [29:22] The only thing I've learned over the years, competitiveness, work ethic, [29:26] If that's in there, I like the top of the top. [29:30] you're starting out in good shape there, and then the durability injury stuff is the third piece, right? Foltz didn't have that. [29:38] Some guys come in and then you hear the first guy in the gym, last one to leave, all that shit.

There's a reason those guys become successful. You did that finals with Brunson. [29:51] And then Brunson had that great interview after game five where he, where, you know, yet again, all of a sudden he scored a bunch of points in a row. And it was just like, I just go back to all the work I put in the gym over and over. I just pretend I'm in the gym. [30:03] Like, honestly, that's what that's what this is about. You can have as much talent as you want, but you still got to work at it.

I look at Peter. I will say this one last one last quick on that. Like, but I do think in addition to the injury with Markel Fultz and whatever it was, it was a unique injury. They couldn't really get it. They couldn't get a handle. It was like a weird shoulder thing. Yeah, shoulder. And it changed completely changes mechanics into something that was unrecognizable. I'm just telling you, like being at a lot of those games. [30:26] And in that building, [30:28] and being close and kind of just observing. I also think there was a component of it was tough for him being the number one pick, dealing with the injury.

And then when he would go into the game when he was healthy, I think it was like a lot of feeling that. All eyeballs on number one pick, that market, that's tough, man. And I think it got to the point where like, [30:49] They went like, hey, TJ McConnell, we took him out of the rotation at one point completely just because we got to see if this guy can go. And after a period of time, they put TJ McConnell back in there and the crowd went crazy because it was like, we need a guy that can come out here and contribute for whatever reason he was.

And I was so happy for him, actually, when he went to Orlando. He played pretty well when he first got there. And I'm like, man, hopefully he's going to end up having a long career as a productive NBA guard. But the number one pick that was difficult for him from the beginning, the injury on top of it made it impossible. [31:19] run like that. Pressure, big situations. He had some sort of weird foul shooting thing. Didn't seem like he liked basketball that much. [31:27] With the Peterson piece... [31:31] There's some weird agency stuff, too, where he's represented by team, which also is...

[31:37] George's agency and that people think that's why they don't want him to go to Utah. Um, [31:43] So Memphis might be where he goes. I think Boozer is going to go to Utah, and I think Peterson will go to Memphis. But who the hell knows? And then let's take a break, and then we'll talk about Caleb Wilson. [31:54] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by my friends at FanDuel. [31:58] On the biggest stage in the world, FanDuel is changing the game. Because sometimes your player gets subbed off.

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And now your bet can go the actual distance of the game. Let there be goals this summer. [32:36] On FanDuel, [32:38] Visit com slash BS. [32:41] to get started now. [32:42] 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 888-789-7777 or visit org slash chat in Connecticut. [32:56] All right, so if you were the consultant to the Wizards, [32:59] And they were like, hey, Tim, I know you do the ESPN games. [33:03] We're starting to laugh on the banter.

[33:05] The owner saw... [33:07] this high school tournament where Peterson scored 48 and looked like he was the greatest player of all time. [33:14] Is Peterson going to come back to haunt us? What would you do if you were us? [33:17] You would just say, no, no, ride the course. [33:20] Just stay with the band so don't overthink it. [33:23] Yeah, 100%. You literally took words out of my mouth. [33:26] That would be what I would say. Don't overthink this. [33:28] And it happens all the time. Don't ever think this.

I don't have really any reservation whatsoever that the Bantz is going to be a star in the NBA. How long it takes? I don't know. Down the road. I mean, look, that's an organization that obviously, you know, I played at a long, long time ago. There hasn't been a lot of stability there for a long time. So like it's a situation, a bunch of young dudes. Now, look, you know, Trey Young saying, you know, opt out. I don't know what that means for them. Is Anthony Davis going to be bought into being there if Trey's not?

[33:58] all these other young lottery picks. I doubt Anthony Davis is going to want to be part of that. So it's this young group of dudes, [34:05] All high picks trying to figure this out together. He becomes the face overnight. So there's certainly some, like, there's not pressure. [34:14] which is good for some young guys, but it's also like being part of something that's bigger in a winning culture. Like that's also good for players when they're young and they're drafted high. They don't have all that responsibility on them. So I don't know exactly what that situation is going to look like.

But I have no reservation that he is going to stand out. Barring injury, I think J. DeBonson is going to be a star in this league. [34:38] We agree. That Trae Young thing I read as he opted out and he's going to get a longer deal for slightly less money. [34:45] Yeah, I read the same thing and we'll see. That's my interpretation. [34:49] I saw other things that were like, you know, he's relishing this opportunity kind of almost to like – [34:54] He's got something to prove. [34:56] and he thinks this might be a good situation for him to do that, they're going to love him there.

I can tell you that. If he plays... [35:02] And he does the things that Trey Young can do. He's a very entertaining player, a popular player. And he can put up some numbers. And he's going to have a lot of athletes around him playing off of him. So it could be a good situation for him. But to get inside the head of a Trey Young at this stage of his career, an Anthony Davis, good luck. I don't have enough expertise to know. [35:21] Yeah, I would assume Davis gets traded. Trey Young, if I'm his PR agent, I would be doing the whole...

[35:28] Hey, Jalen Brunson, small guard, discounted. [35:32] Change teams, NBA title, champ. Why can't that be Trey Young? [35:37] Build the right team around Shreve. [35:39] Could be the Jalen thing. I don't think that will happen. Caleb Wilson, what were your thoughts? [35:43] Love them. [35:44] I love him, man. I'm excited about Caleb Wilson. And because look, there's a dynamic. Did I say Williams or Wilson? [35:51] You said Wilson, I think. I did? Okay. I wanted to make sure I never know about him. Caleb Wilson. Yeah. I'm pretty sure you said Caleb Wilson.

Great. Love him because... [36:00] There's a lot of things I watch with him and he's got that [36:04] like eyes pop factors. [36:06] You're like, holy hell. And so now you look at the way the league is set up and some of the spacing that exists in that league and a guy that's got this kind of just explosive power. [36:20] Yeah, sign me up for that because I think anything else that you would want to look at his game and if you want to. [36:27] If you want to tighten up his handle, if you want to tighten up his shooting, particularly shooting off the dribble, I do think those are things that can be tightened up.

It's not like for that, you either have it now or you don't. [36:39] That's not the case. Guys add that stuff all the time in their first three, four years of their career. And then there's a whole other ceiling for them. [36:46] excuse me, as a scorer. [36:47] But that's what I'm talking about. [36:50] That stuff where he explodes off the floor like that? No, no. [36:54] That's not something you either have it or you don't. I mean, that is something you either have it or you don't. And he's got it.

That's not, you're not adding that later, not that degree of pop. And that's what he's got off the floor. And it blows you away because you're like, you're picturing him in any sort of, of open floor situation or even offensive rebounding situations. And it gets a step on a guy like that is what, [37:16] big time explosive finishing ability looks like at the NBA level. The other stuff, [37:22] will come. I'm a huge, huge fan of his upside. [37:26] There's a relentlessness with him that almost guarantees he's going to be a really good NBA player.

[37:32] He just really gives a shit. [37:34] The work ethic, the competitiveness he has. Like, he just has it. I... [37:39] To me, he's not like a runner jumper. I do think there's like some hoops IQ stuff in there. Like he seems like he'd be fun to play with. And I think if he was with the right... [37:48] kind of guard, point guard, who could be looking out for him and trying to set him up. [37:52] - You know, he's different 'cause Sean Kemp had a different body. [37:56] But when young Sean Kemp came into the league and you just saw people he was playing against, it was a lot of this, like, [38:02] People looking up as he's going over them for rebounds and dunks.

There's going to be some of that. And then it'll come down to whether he can add a shot, which I'm not going to bet against anybody who's super competitive to eventually be able to add an 18 footer. Right. Kids 19. When he's 22, he's going to have an 18 footer. I'm not worried about it. And I've watched him shoot enough in game situations where you're like, okay, it's not like you're watching it going, oh man, you know, put a disclaimer at the bottom of the screen. [38:32] on his release. It's not like that.

I mean, I've seen guys with... [38:35] And it looks decent by the time he gets to the release point, it looks pretty good. There's a lot to work with there. I would be, [38:44] strongly considering taking him. I don't know what the Jazz are going to do. I don't know, again, because of how many bigs they have, I don't know if they just want the best available player and they don't care if it's another big or not. But if it is Peterson that goes to the Jazz because they just want that, another scorer, to go, you know, on the wing, then I would strongly consider taking Wilson a three.

[39:05] So Danny, all bets are off because he famously was going to take Durant that one year if the Celtics got the first pick over Odin. And I think he was the only one who was going to do that. [39:16] I'd rarely say this. If I was Utah, I would try to flip with Chicago and pick up extra stuff and just take Wilson because he might end up being the best out of these four guys. I don't think there's any way to know. And I don't think you can go wrong with any of them.

Maybe Peterson if – [39:31] if last year the red flags kind of started to add up. But if you could move back, still get Caleb Wilson, and then pick up like the 15th from the Bulls and other stuff, like I would think about that. I think Wilson's going to be awesome. And we didn't even talk about this. [39:45] You're the fourth pick. [39:47] In a four-player draft, basically, before the drop-off. [39:51] Little chip on the old shoulder. [39:53] Oh, you didn't think I was the, you thought I was fourth out of four.

Okay. I'm going to show you. And I was like those guys. [40:02] Nothing like a competitive guy who got passed over. [40:06] I hear you. It's probably a lot of, you know, a lot of drummers that had, you know, a great solo career at some point, but they never got the credit being in that band. Right. That could be the case. So I think that is something, you know, that's how this has been framed for a while now that it's these four guys and then there's a drop off. I do like some other guys.

[40:25] after that. Who's your next favorite? They're going [40:29] I love Mikel Brown. Oh, my God. That's my... I have... [40:34] I'm terrible at figuring out guys like him. Make the case. You don't like them. [40:38] it's my weakness with draft evaluation because he's a home run hitter. [40:44] He feels busty to me, but then he also feels like he could be a five-top-mile NBA guy. And I was like, those guys always scare me. [40:52] What do you like? I don't know, man. I just like the fact that he's just he's he's.

[40:58] A polished, proven scorer. He can just flat-out score. He's got handle either direction. Some of the notes I wrote down, big-time threat every time he touches, scores at every level, explosive finisher, deep range, and a lot of potential to grow. He's got good size. He's not elite in terms of his size. Good enough size to get his own shot. And I've seen... [41:21] projections anywhere. I mean, he's anywhere of 7 to 10, like most of the ones I've seen. So he's going to go in that range. I think somebody's going to get themselves like a big-time NBA scorer down the road

[41:33] wherever he ends up going. [41:35] He's 6'3.5 without shoes. [41:38] Um, um, [41:39] He seems like to be the wild bearer. Fortunately, they don't play barefoot. Well, true. So put maybe 6'5.5 with Susan. There you go. He seems like his range is basically like 5 to 12, which is pretty – that's what's so funny about like once you get to that Clippers pick – [41:57] They don't need a guard, right? They don't need a point guard because they have Garland. They just made this trade for them. [42:02] And everybody seems to have Wagler and Acuff there.

[42:06] Acuff's the guy I was just going to talk about. He's the other guy that is kind of right there in that territory. He's another guy that you look at, both Acuff and Brown, both of those guys, really flashy scores. They can go get their own, and in some ways, kind of similar in that regard. [42:23] Acuff's, I've noticed, seems to me like one of the biggest just consistent jumps up this board is, [42:31] basically over the last month or so it's just and to where i have i've seen a lot of them where he's going to be the fifth pick like he might be the next guy outside that top four i'd you know and that is that's the clippers with that pick so i don't i don't know where if he's going to go that high but to me he was a guy that during the season you come kind of paying attention i start to dive in after the season i start to look more out after tournaments over it feel i feel like to me he's like solidifying himself on a on a daily basis like he's going to be somewhere in there if he's [43:01] He's one of those first two or three after the top four.

He was my crush guy in college. I really became infatuated with him, and so did my buddy House. We watched a lot of him, and then he had the run in the tournament. He's just – every game, he was 26 and 9 – [43:17] 25 and 12 years. [43:19] 28 and 8. He's a great shooter. [43:23] He's... [43:24] He's like a pure old school guy. [43:27] Big guy gets the rebound, looks for him. Like he's like a real point guard. Give me the ball, I want the ball all the time.

I'm good on fast breaks. [43:36] I think if you're going to take a guard that high... [43:39] who is clearly a smaller guard, [43:42] who's going to probably be not the greatest guy on defense. [43:45] you better think this guy's a home run. And I think he's that good. Like, I do think he's a rare that good. He's one of those guys we're talking about. That's his style. Some of the notes I just, real quick, I wrote down just great change of pace. Like, really keeps guys off balance. Explosive first and second dribbles, which is a big deal in the NBA.

Like, that first one, a lot of guys had that first step. He's got one and two. That second gear, as he gets downhill, finishes with both hands really, really well. Like, so he can drive either way. [44:15] finishing, because he's probably learned to, because again, he's not 6'6", 6'7", coming out. She was in that 6'3", range. So he's had to learn how to be more creative with his finishing. He's a lead guard with outrageous potential. So he would be right there. He might be [44:29] Five like him and Brown, they're going to be right there in that category.

[44:34] And Wagler is the other one that a lot of people have there. And Wagler is a tough one to me because... [44:40] We talk about like we were doing the comps before. [44:43] I look at Acuff and he just reminds me a lot of Kyrie. I think he's more of a point guard than Kyrie was, but his ability to finish with either hand, how he uses the stop and start stuff, [44:54] how he gets somebody on his hip and carries them, sense of the moment. It's all stuff we saw with Kyrie.

[44:59] And same thing, like Kyrie was, he might be maybe a half inch, inch bigger than him, but [45:04] Um, reminds me of, I don't know who Wagner reminds me of. I don't, [45:08] I don't know what the roadmap is for him. He's so unconventional. I don't think he had a dunk last year. [45:13] He doesn't finish at the rim. Everything's like this herky-jerky thing. [45:17] And that team was built around [45:20] Just what a unique player he was, but he wasn't a top, I don't even think he was top 100 or top 150 heading into college and had this meteoric rise.

[45:29] But I don't know who he reminds me of. One of the things I love about him, because I'm always kind of really honed in on evaluating shooting mechanics and release and how that's going to translate. He's got tremendous extension. Believe it or not, a lot of guys make shots in college. And they're going to be drafted in these drafts. And they don't really extend on their finish. [45:49] And I think to myself, well, [45:51] It's fine when you feel you're the best player on the court. [45:54] and you're creating a little bit more space than you're going to create at the next level, you're just not going to be as consistent.

Because I think if you don't have full extension now, that's going to shorten up even more as the windows shrink to get the shot off. And now you're just never going to be consistent. It's a lot of front rims. [46:10] wagler has tremendous extension like he gets full extension and it's quick he gets into his motion quick and he's got full extension elbow lock wrist lock at the same time i look for that kind of thing that that translates like this is who this guy is that's not going to change he doesn't need to work on that he's already got that he's coming to the league he can make shots now and then now he's climbing because people are looking at him as being more than that like he's more than a shot maker he can do some other things for you as well he's got you know

[46:39] Pretty good size as well. Better size than the two guys we were just talking about. And came through on a big stage, which isn't nothing. I really thought he got [46:47] In that tournament, him and Acuff both were... [46:49] Really great. Part of the problem with this is [46:52] So when you're starting with pick five, [46:55] Basically, the next four best guys are point guards. [46:59] who are smaller guards, because Flemings is the other one from Houston. [47:02] And as we know with the draft, [47:04] Not everyone needs a point guard.

Like, first of all, we have a bunch of awesome point guards in the league already. [47:10] there's four more. It makes me think one of them's not going to make it. And then Burris, have you studied Burris at all? Yeah, yeah, I have. Yeah. And then Burris is the one who is the best two guard available. [47:22] no question about it. The thing I love about him better than any of these guys, and he had to, cause he was more off ball than the other three guys. And I think we didn't mention Kingston Fleming.

Is that the other guy you're talking about? You said the next three, you were talking about a cuff, [47:34] and brown [47:35] and wagler and flemings like those four guys those four guys so this guy yeah [47:39] Burries is more of like what I love about him. You can run pin down action for him. He comes off down screens and he's getting his hips turned and swiveling into the catch and it's gone quicker. So like that is like another element to use a guy like that. He can create offense off his motion because he's such a threat off down screens out to deep.

He doesn't necessarily need to play with the ball first to get into his shot. I think some of the other guys we talked about, that's just more natural for them for that rhythm. They need the rhythm first. [48:09] Thank you. [48:09] He's a guy that you can put off the ball. So maybe his usage isn't as high. Maybe he goes to a situation where he can't have high usage because of who they already have. But he could still go get shots up because he doesn't need a lot of time to do it.

And he doesn't need a rhythm dribble or a live dribble to do it first. To me, the best of this group at that kind of stuff, getting his hips turned off a down screen and letting it fly from deep. [48:34] And he's going to be a really good defender. [48:36] Now he's a year older than some of these guys but was a big A. He won the high school state title here where he was like [48:46] the lead guard for that team. But I've said this, he's been my favorite guy out of the top four.

[48:51] other than Acuff because... [48:54] Um, [48:55] A lot of the same reasons I led Castle two years ago. [48:59] Because he's on that great Arizona team, right? [49:02] They didn't really need a lot of what he, so he was just like, all right, well, [49:06] What do you need from me? All right, I'll do this, this. And he just kind of figured out how to fit in, hit a couple big threes when they needed them, played defense, do all the nitty-gritty stuff, which is exactly what Castle did at UConn.

And then when Castle went to San Antonio, he was able to... [49:22] And I think Burris has that in him. He makes the most sense for the Clippers. [49:26] My question is, you don't necessarily need to take them at five. Could you trade back [49:31] Could he flip spots with the Kings? [49:34] who everybody thinks they want, Acuff. Could you flip spots with them, pick up one extra asset, and then take Burry's and [49:40] at seven you'd have to i mean it's listen as we know all these guys were talking about that's beauty is in the eye of the beholder because i haven't personally a lot of the different mock drafts i've been studying and looking at haven't seen them really that high so you have to be just one of those things where what you see is like man what he does these particular specific things better than some of the guys we've talked about who like yeah man they got a lot of junk in their game they do a lot of stuff they're scorers natural [50:10] skill better to take him that high.

Most of the ones, mock drafts I've looked at have not seen him as high as five. So I don't know where he ends up. But what do you do if you're the Clippers though? Because you have Kawhi who's going to be 35 next year. You have Garland who's your point guard. [50:24] And if you're taking another point guard, [50:27] you could talk yourself into it and just be like, look, we're going to be a little unconventional. We're going to have these two scoring guards and, [50:32] You know, we're not, there's going to be some bad stuff on defense, but that's why we have Ty Lue and a coaching staff.

[50:38] I just find it hard to believe they're going to do that. [50:42] Which is why I feel like they're going to trade back and take Burris would be [50:46] There's one other trait I love. I got to throw this at you. [50:49] This is... [50:50] Just in general, something I've been watching. [50:53] And you didn't do the Western Conference for playoffs this year, right? Did you do the Eastern Conference? Yeah, you did the Eastern Conference. Yeah, you had the stinky sweep. We had the Knicks just treating people like a woodchip.

Yeah, you had that one. [51:06] I don't know what happens with Wallace and OKC. [51:10] Where you have these, you have Shay and now you just gave Max's to Chet and you gave a Max to J-Dub. [51:16] And you have Wallace, who after the season, it's very interesting. He had a little moment in a press conference where he was – [51:22] Basically, like... [51:24] It was interesting when I – he said something about when Shea was out during that stretch and Wallace had the ball. And you and I talked about this in a pod where it was like – I did a couple of games during that time.

Yeah, there's a lot more with Wallace here that we didn't really get to see. Then the playoffs happened. Yeah. [51:37] He's back to 25 minutes a game. I mean, he averaged eight points a game this season, right? It's year three for him. [51:44] all right, well, what's he worth? Because you're talking extension now. After year three, you can extend the guy. And if I'm him, I'm like, [51:51] There's more here. I could be the lead guard. I'm one of the best defenders in the league. I'm a $30 million a year guy, and I don't think OKC is going to pay it.

[51:59] So what about Wallace and the 12 for five? [52:04] Clippers get Wallace. They move back seven spots. OKC moves up to five. [52:10] Is that too much? You're outside the top four. I mean, look, I think... Is that too much to give up? [52:18] for that pick? For OKC, yeah. [52:22] How much do you like Wallace? [52:24] I like Wallace a lot, but they have, to me, in their system and the guys that they have, he's one of the better on-ball defenders in the NBA. And he did ramp his game up a little bit when he got more of an opportunity.

But they've also got J. Mitchell sitting there. You and I love him, too. Yeah. Right. And he's a guy that's just much more dynamic offensively with what he can do. He hasn't even scratched the surface of how good he is going to be. So...