Can Wemby’s Spurs Shake Off a True Gut Punch? Plus: Adam Friedland on NYC Coming Alive, Trump at MSG, and the World Cup.

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[01:25] Save offers before you check out. [01:27] earn unlimited rewards. Plus you can add those rewards on top of credit card points, [01:32] Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. [01:36] Save those offers, start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See com slash rewards terms, credit card points subject to issuers. [01:46] terms and conditions. [01:48] all right we're coming to you live on netflix between [02:18] in Game 3 of the NBA Finals. Adam Friedland coming up in a little bit. First time he's ever been on the BS Podcast.

I'm excited to talk to him. [02:27] I have a bunch of random reactions coming off game two, heading into the rest of this series. And because... [02:32] I'm an experienced professional who's had a podcast for over 20 years. I feel like I can do this on the fly. I wrote down a bunch of stuff. First of all, [02:40] Um, [02:41] Most incredible Knicks playoff win. [02:44] Game two. [02:44] since LJ's four point play. Um, [02:47] Brunson goes seven for 25 for 20 points. [02:51] And they still win. [02:52] They don't get a single call for 90 minutes other than a challenge that they challenged and won the challenge to get the OG3.

[03:00] They still win. [03:01] They blow a 14-point lead in the last six minutes of game two. They still win. [03:07] They have Towns absolutely destroying Wemby in the first half of the game to the point that at halftime, [03:14] Shaq and Kenny had to do like a long mea culpa. I was right there with them. Uh, [03:19] to cement his sudden arrival as one of the 12 most important guys in the league. We will talk about that a little bit later. [03:25] Yeah, Bridges leaving his own body and officially making everybody who's ever criticized the [03:31] what they gave up in that Nets trade.

[03:33] myself included in the last year, just because they gave up all the assets they would have needed to get Giannis. But who needs Giannis now? You're two wins away from the title. [03:40] So you had this incredible bridges game. [03:42] And then you had Wemby, [03:44] Closing. [03:46] with a really horrific three-point air ball that got lost in what happened next. A horrible two-for-one, follow-away, 22-footer. The Spurs did two things in the last 40 seconds of this game that I hate. [03:59] One is we got to get a two for one and you end up getting a terrible shot.

I'd rather just get one awesome shot. [04:05] And then the foul to give I just have always hated. [04:08] And they did the foul to give, which, of course, when one B fouls Brunson with 10 seconds left, you have no foul to give. And suddenly he's shooting free throws. You have an all-time iconic... [04:18] People screaming out loud as it's happening, bad turnover with Wemby, which we'll get to in a second. You've already heard people talk about it for two days. I have some additional thoughts. And then you have a wide open 18 foot miss.

[04:30] from a 22-year-old guy that was actually a really good shot. [04:34] The question is whether that's the right play and the right moment for somebody like that who's been kind of skidding backwards in the last two minutes of the game. [04:43] But the castle play. [04:45] Throwing the ball off his back, I think was the closest... [04:49] we've seen in the NBA to the Chris Webber timeout play in college against North Carolina for a bunch of reasons. One, [04:57] The coach is standing next to Wemby. [05:00] And he's doing this.

He's telling him to go to push it because he doesn't want to call a timeout to set up a play. [05:06] I don't know why he was so excited to have his 7'7 center dribbling the ball up with 10 seconds left in a must-win game. I probably would have rethought that. There's a great angle of Wemby from the other side, and he's got both of his point guards to his right. [05:20] Doesn't even look at him. [05:21] Looks forward. Castle... [05:24] I'm torn on this because I think Castle thinks Wemby's going to take the ball down, which he's done in the past.

So he's starting to put his head down and run. [05:32] But I also feel like if you're a real point guard, [05:35] You want the ball. [05:36] You're going to come to the ball. You're ready for the ball. And Castle's, you know, he's a guard. He's not a real point guard. If that's Fox or Harper, they're turning around. They're trying to get the ball from Wembley because they want the car keys in that moment. [05:48] And it was just, just an absolute clusterfuck. And, um, [05:53] I kind of couldn't believe it as it was happening.

It was, I think, one of the all-timers for an, oh, no! [06:00] And everybody had that reaction. There were great reactions that people captured all over the place. But when I think about you throw that play in and then how the game ended and just blowing an incredible comeback, the most damaging, non-clinching. [06:15] non-injury finals of the last 50 years. So we're removing all the game sevens. We're removing stuff like Halliburton last year against OKC, because that's probably number one, like losing your best guy in a game seven. [06:26] Um, [06:27] I went to the

R. Smith game in 2018, which was another, oh, no. [06:31] Um, [06:32] where they get the rebound and just, okay. And you couldn't even believe it as it was happening. The Ray Allen shot game six, 2013 against Miami. I was at that game too. The crazy Celtics game four comeback in 2008. [06:48] Um, [06:49] The totality of coming back from 24 and then feeling like they completely broke the Lakers at the end. [06:55] Wade Salvatore, Game 5, [06:57] Miami-Dallas 2006. [07:00] Now, we've blended Game 3 and Game 5 together in our heads and just thought Miami got all the calls for both of those games.

And they did get a lot of calls in Game 3. [07:09] Game three was a much better game And also had I think Dirk missed a big free throw at one point But the Heat climbed back A lot of people were involved It was just more of a traditional awesome comeback [07:21] Game five... [07:23] was pretty awful in the moment and culminated in, [07:27] Miami winning and Cuban doing the thing where he just stared at David Stern from the court. He was so angry. [07:33] I wrote a very upset column about after that game that was pretty egregious, and you just felt like...

[07:40] He felt like Dallas was done after that game. The Nick Anderson game, which a lot of people brought up in 1995, is another one. The four missed free throws. [07:47] Thank you. [07:48] I see the comparisons with the 95 Magic and this Spurs team and what happened, but you can't really compare – [07:56] those two games for this reason. The Magic had the game. It was over. [08:01] And he missed four straight free throws. And three and four were like, you're watching somebody's career flash before their eyes. [08:09] And when he missed it, then it goes in an OT, I think.

And then they end up losing... [08:13] Um, [08:15] But that was much more of a, we had it, oh my God, I can't believe we blew this game. [08:20] Whereas the Spurs game, they clawed back. They almost won. They had to make a couple... [08:24] plays, stops. It was a back and forth game. And even though it was devastating, trust me, it was not like the Nick Anderson game. Isaiah's sprained ankle in 1988 where the Pistons are up 3-2. They're better than the Lakers that year. Isaiah gets hurt, still has a 25 in the [08:41] they end up blowing it late.

[08:43] Magic Junior Skyhook, I was at this game, 1987, game four. Seltzer up six with two minutes left, and it just becomes an operatic collapse culminating in the Junior Skyhook. And then Bird... [08:57] Missing, which we captured in the Celtic City documentary, Bird Missing, the three-pointer to win it by... [09:02] about one one hundredth of an inch. That was the most devastated I've been after a game. [09:06] And then Henderson's steal in game two of the 1984 finals. The Lakers are going to finish off the Celtics and probably sweep or win in five.

And then Worthy throws it to Henderson, goes into overtime. So that from the last 50 years, those are the worst ones. And I really do think that game two... [09:24] with the Spurs is on that list. [09:26] Because having your best guy and the guy who's supposed to be the next guy, like LeBron in 2007 was 22 and he made the finals. [09:33] They just got their ass kicked. Nobody remembers a single thing about that finals. There wasn't anything you could really hang on LeBron and be like, oh, that play.

Um, [09:41] Wemby is just about [09:44] the best player ever, [09:46] to have, um, [09:48] Like a really dopey play like that happened to him. [09:51] And we'll see how he responds over the next couple of weeks. [09:55] couple games but that was about as bad as it gets for a great player um [10:00] And I think... [10:02] If I'm doing blame pie, Castle 20% for just turning around and running forward. I'm just trying to get the ball from my center. Mitch Johnson, at least 50% for not calling a timeout.

And then Wemby, [10:14] who I just think brain farted and kind of panicked when he should have been like, where... [10:19] Where's Harper and where's Fox? Those are the two guys that need to get the ball to. [10:25] So I put him at like 30 to 35%. That's probably too much blame pie. That might've been 105% of a blame pie, whatever. Um, [10:33] Here's another thing that came out of this game that I was... [10:36] Stand by... [10:38] Even that night, as I was thinking about it, the Spurs... [10:41] have five [10:43] Of the worst playoff losses.

And I think their five... [10:46] is worse than anyone else's five. They lost the Ray Allen shot game, which is the worst loss ever. [10:51] anyone's had in the history of the NBA finals. [10:55] The Derek Fisher 0.4% [10:57] shot in 2004. [10:59] where, [11:00] The Spurs were just better than the Lakers that year, and that's still a pretty stupid series. And Fisher just getting a jump shot off in four-tenths of the second. [11:09] I don't even know if that's legal by the rules we have now, but... [11:13] That was devastating, especially because Timmy had made a big [11:16] shot right before that to give them the lead.

[11:18] That's two. [11:20] Maynu fouling Dirk. [11:22] Up three in the last 20 seconds, game seven, 2006. [11:28] Um, [11:29] And we love Manu, and Manu's a great player, and it was just he was trying to challenge the play. I actually don't think he did the wrong thing, but he fouls Dirk. [11:36] Dirk gets the three-point play, goes into overtime. Dallas wins. [11:40] The Wemby Castle Pass has to be up there. [11:43] And then that famous Rod Strickland 1990 play. I was in college for that one. [11:49] Although I think I was probably out of classes by that point.

But that was an all-timer. It throws it over his head backwards. [11:56] And ends up, Portland ends up [12:00] Not only did he turn the ball over by throwing it over his head with like 30 seconds to nobody. [12:05] Portland gets a fast break, which he then hard fouls the guy in the fast break. And I think it ends up being two free throws in the ball. [12:12] So, [12:14] Those five plus, you got to go with the Spurs in 1979 blew a... [12:20] 3-1 lead to the Bullets. And in Game 7...

[12:23] Bobby Dandridge kills them with 10 seconds left. Now that wasn't like a, [12:27] Screw up, but it was a really horrible collapse. We thought George Irvin was going to be in the finals. [12:32] And then Dandridge matches him. I think Girvin had 42. Dandridge had like 35, 37. And he made the big shot with 10 seconds left. [12:40] I think, I put some thought into this. That's the worst five losses. If you're going to, top five worst losses by franchisee, [12:49] Nobody can touch that. [12:50] Ray Allen Fisher. [12:52] Manu Fowley Dirk, the Wimpy Castle Pass, and Rod Strickland.

I needed either one or two words to explain each of those moments, and you knew what I was talking about. So... [13:02] Um, [13:03] That part's nuts. [13:05] Another one, Nick's final sweep, which I think was 16 to one. [13:09] on FanDuel. [13:10] before the finals. [13:13] I think would be one of... [13:15] the two craziest outcomes in the history of the finals. [13:18] If you're just talking, I'm not talking about upsets, craziest team that won. I'm just talking about outcome. [13:25] A Knicks sweep, the only thing you can compare to that is 95%.

[13:30] the Rockets... [13:32] sweeping Orlando, which I can't remember. I bet on Houston and that is one of my favorite bets I ever made, betting on Houston, that series. I did not have the sweep, I don't think. But – [13:43] But... [13:44] That... [13:45] Pistons in five... [13:47] over the Lakers in 2004. [13:50] I think if you thought the Pistons were going to win that one, you wouldn't have thought it was going to be that decisive. [13:55] And then I think the 91 Bulls beating the Lakers in five would be another one because that was a classic.

It was a little like this series actually. [14:02] Is the young team ready? [14:04] The old team with know-how, veterans, who do you have? I picked the Lakers that series. [14:09] I bet on the Lakers that series. [14:12] And the Bulls 1-5 [14:14] But I would think this is one of the two most shocking outcomes along with the Houston-Rolando sweep. The other thing is, if they win the title... [14:21] I think this becomes our premier NBA example of experience over youth because it used to be the 95 Rockets over the...

[14:29] over the Magic, I think it would now flip to this. Because that 95 Magic team did have Brian Shaw, that Horace Grant. It wasn't like this. It was this completely young team. I think the Spurs feel younger to me than that team. [14:41] A writer named Noops Christensen, a mailbag writer, [14:47] Said, I had a thought about Nick Spurs. I present the YMCA test. Imagine if it were the championship game for the best league at your local YMCA. [14:57] Team A has five very talented players, ages 21, 22, 24, 25, and 28.

[15:02] They're playing team B, which might be slightly less talented, but still talented. And their players are 28, 29, 29, 31, and 30. [15:10] Are you taking the more talented but younger team A or the veteran team B, the YMCA test? [15:16] I kind of like this. [15:18] There's been some other YMCA battles. I think the... [15:21] A really good one was the 2011 Thunder against the 2011 Mavericks. [15:26] was one of my favorite ones for these. But then you'll have the next year, [15:30] Where the 2012 Thunder, we thought that was another YMCA test series, and they beat the Spurs.

So it doesn't always work, but... [15:37] I did enjoy this. All right, so what do... [15:41] What do the Spurs have to do to flip a series? [15:44] down [15:45] two games. So you can either be down 2-0 or 3-1 in a series. I went back and I looked at all the times [15:51] We've been in this situation in the finals. [15:55] And what you learn... [15:57] is you need some sort of dramatic, karma-changing, momentum-changing something. [16:03] And you don't know what it is. [16:06] It could be as simple as...

[16:08] The president decided to go to game three. I'm sorry, too soon. [16:12] 2021 Suns. They won... [16:15] I'm sorry, they... [16:18] Won the first two at home and then blew the series to the Bucks, right? [16:21] Well, what happened in that series? [16:23] Post-COVID, a little weird. That was... [16:27] We're sitting in the stands with [16:28] Some people were in masks. It was just a weird vibe for that whole thing. But Game 5... [16:35] Had one of the craziest sequences. That game's in Phoenix. The series is tied at two after Milwaukee won.

They're two at home. [16:42] And then you have that one where Drew Holiday comes flying in, steals the ball from Booker. They get the fast break the other way. And the awesome, crazy, all-time athletic alley-oop to Giannis. [16:54] And it was one of those sequences where you're like, holy shit, Walker's going to win the finals now. [16:58] So that's one. [16:59] But [17:00] 2016 Cavs was the bigger one. That was the Draymond suspension after game four. [17:05] And I've talked about this before, but the Cavs lose game four in [17:08] at home to Golden State.

It's one of the best games of the 2010s. The Warriors are better than them. [17:14] They finish them. And then at the end of the game, LeBron goes Draymond into the technical. And that flips that one. 2006 Heat. [17:23] You have that game three comeback I mentioned earlier where they're down 13-13. [17:28] With six minutes left, the Heat scored 22 points in the last six minutes, and they get Dirk to miss... [17:34] the one and two free throws that in the last 10 seconds that gets him to win it. [17:38] That flips a little, they win game four, and then game five is the Ben Salvatore game.

[17:42] And then the 1977 Blazers is the other one. They're down 2-0 to Philly. [17:48] And at the end of that game, [17:51] There's a huge fight. [17:53] with Daryl Dawkins and Maurice Lucas. And Dawkins is so mad after the game that he like destroys the locker room. He feels like the Sixers didn't help him. [18:01] And it kind of fucked the team up. [18:04] So I would say that counts for... [18:06] some sort of momentum shift. There's one time out of all those, so I have the 2021 bucks, 16 calves, 06 heat, 77 blazers, which is your best hope for the Spurs because [18:18] Almost 50 years later, they're very similar to that 77 Blazers team.

Young core, Wemby is Bill Walton. Fall down 0-2 in the finals. Everybody thinks the series is over. The 93 Suns. [18:30] Go down 0-2 to the Chicago Bulls. [18:35] They have a crazy game three game. [18:37] That's like one of the last great NBA games, triple overtime. [18:42] Triple overtime game three and the Suns win. They beat Michael Jordan in Chicago. [18:47] right, feels like they flipped the momentum back. What happens? [18:52] The Bulls have Michael Jordan, and he scores 55 in game four. [18:56] And basically just... [18:57] Says, no way.

You're not coming back. [18:59] Um, [19:01] So that's the one time when the momentum shift happened and then the team that was up 2-0 that I could think of. [19:07] step drop so [19:09] How do you flip a series down two games? [19:12] You need something crazy to happen in game three. I don't think it can just be a win. I think it has to be either... [19:18] The Knicks collapse. The vibes are weird. Webby puts up [19:22] A 50-30, something crazy has to happen Monday night for this series to flip.

It can't just be, oh, the Spurs played better and they won. [19:30] It's got to be like a tangible flip because no team has ever lost the first two at home and then won the series. So you would need something. [19:37] really dramatic. The goodness for them is they do have [19:40] a really great player, even if he hasn't 100% played like it in the finals so far. Which brings me to Wendy. [19:48] So, I think, [19:50] This is something I remember talking about two years ago with Anthony Edwards after game three.

[19:56] of the Dallas series, which was really bad for both him and Towns. And [20:01] on the Sunday night pod was talking about [20:03] There are levels of this with the playoffs, and you don't know it until you're in it. And it's just really hard for... [20:10] Guys, 20, 21, 22, 23, 23. [20:13] As everything gets harder, as you're seeing the same team, [20:17] you know, [20:17] maybe seven times in two weeks, there's levels to it. [20:22] there's [20:23] ways you get pushed mentally and physically that you've just never dealt with before.

And sometimes you can see young players – [20:30] no matter how great they are, [20:32] you can feel it start to break their brain. And it happened a little with Edwards. He did rally back in that Dallas series, and his last two games were pretty good. LeBron, in the 2007 finals, he was 22. He shot 36%, had almost six turnovers a game. [20:48] Tatum, at age 23 in the 22 finals against Golden State, it's a good example. He just really unraveled and [20:54] It was fatigue and how the Warriors were defending him.

He shot 37%, but you could feel it in the last few games. You just could feel him losing. [21:03] Losing control of all the stuff that he was so good at. Shaq in the 95 finals just getting killed by Hakeem. [21:09] KD is a good one. He's age 22 in that Dallas series I mentioned, both him and Westbrook. [21:15] She just felt really young in that series. Katie only shot 42% in that series, but Dirk really took it to him. [21:22] An underrated one was Derrick Rose in the 2011 Miami series.

[21:27] when it was like, is it too early for Derrick Rose? Like that Miami team was pretty limited. I mean, they basically had the three guys in Haslam. [21:35] Roshad, 35%. Just... [21:37] Just couldn't put it together in that series. The one example of somebody pretty young, [21:44] that I thought acquitted themselves well and actually – [21:48] I didn't feel at all like they were young, was Luka in that Golden State Series in 2008. [21:54] 22. [21:57] He's pretty good in that series. Go back and look at the stats. He was not the reason they lost.

And his stats, in general, Luka has never really been... [22:04] spooked by the finals. The Celtics probably did the best job against him in 24, but, um, or not by a playoff series, not the finals. [22:12] But Luca's the only example. The point is, [22:15] When you're a young player and you're great, [22:17] There's still levels to this, and it's still like solving the video game. And I think you could really feel that Webby. Webby was so bad in the first half. [22:24] Taz just took it to him. [22:26] And, uh...

[22:27] And he did respond in the second half. So if I'm the Spurs, you know, I'm going to get to that one second. Dan Klimko, a listener, wrote in, [22:37] Where does this Wemby Game 2 collapse rank for you on the Tragic Johnson, C-Web timeout, [22:43] freddie brown's passed to james worthy in 82 bird steals the ball from isaiah etc scale [22:51] We don't know yet because we don't know how the finals is going to turn out. This is a sweep. [22:56] Thank you. [22:57] I do think that play gets mentioned big picture.

I do think... [23:02] Webby Castle, I just think you'll know instantly what it was. [23:05] It will take you right to that moment and it'll [23:09] just be [23:10] one of the weirder brainfire plays that we've ever had. There was a really good slow-mo from behind the hoop where Castle's turning as Wimby's throwing it. When you slow it down, you're like, "Why is he throwing it? Castle's already turned." But in real time, [23:25] Thank you. [23:26] He's dribbling. There's 10 seconds. There's a bunch of stuff going on his head. And he's like, I should give that to Castle.

And he's throwing it to him. But Castle's already turned around. [23:34] It's just the kind of play that would never happen if he was 27, 28, 29, and he's been in the league for a few years. He would have looked for his point guards. [23:40] This goes back to the whole youth versus experience thing. This was why we were wondering whether they were the 90 Bulls or the 91 Bulls all season. [23:49] This is my hesitation with them for a long time. And I finally bought in on them the last couple of rounds of, you just can't quantify it until you're there.

And that play to me is the perfect example of, [24:00] You just don't know until you're at a moment like that, when you're on a stage like that, with that many people watching, when you've had a crappy first half, when you're trying to climb back, when you're tired, when you feel like you have to do everything and you just kind of panic. Magic Johnson is one of the seven best players of all time. You go back to the 84 finals. He's [24:18] Terrible. Like his worst play in that whole finals was the end of game two.

He dribbles out the clock. [24:24] versus giving the ball to Kareem, they didn't even get a shot off on the last play of regulation. He just brain farted. And this is... [24:31] kind of stuff to happen. All right. So if you're the Spurs, [24:35] What's your roadmap for coming back? [24:39] I think you have to look at it this way. [24:41] You didn't get your ass kicked. [24:43] You're used to the speed of the finals now. You understand what it takes. You really found something in the last six minutes of game two.

You've had big leads in both games. [24:54] You double digit leads, I think, in both games. [24:56] You led game one with two minutes left. [24:59] You came back from 14, you led game two with 57 seconds left. So this wasn't like... [25:04] Like, I was there for Spurs Heat in 2014 because I was on the ESPN show. And I felt like that series was over after Game 3. Like, it was like, Spurs are just better. Like, this is a wrap. This is... [25:15] But Miami's not coming back from this.

So you feel, one of the things you look at when you're looking at a matchup, deciding whether a series is over yet is, [25:23] is the team just laying it on the other team, right? Are there 20 point leads? Is it, [25:28] This has been a pretty even back and forth series. [25:33] The Spurs last two 50-50 games, right? [25:37] Pretty small sample size. So you would talk yourself into that. You would talk yourself into you completely threw away game two. It was one of the more ridiculous losses in recent finals history.

[25:46] Your Brunson defense has worked. He's 19 for 56. He's taken 56 shots for 51 points. [25:53] So now you could say all the stuff you're doing to stop Brunson has now led to people like bridges getting hot, towns is... [26:00] has been borderline dominant. [26:02] Um, [26:04] But still, that's... [26:05] If you had said after two games, 56 for 51. [26:09] I'm feeling pretty good about that. [26:12] I'm feeling pretty good about maybe a little less castle going forward. [26:16] I love Castle. He's probably one of my 10 favorite players in the league.

The fear with him is always that there was this little bit of a Westbrook side with him, this irrational confidence side that no matter what the moment was, he... [26:29] He has so much confidence in himself. He's going to [26:33] kind of [26:34] meandering situations you shouldn't be in. And you could really feel that game too. I just think Harper has been their second best guy. [26:41] And is the guy I probably trust the most other than Wemby? [26:45] Um, yeah, [26:46] And it's weird because Castle is a great player.

[26:49] But I think they need his defense and his intangible stuff way more. [26:53] than the ball handling. I wonder, well, you figure they're going to make some adjustments. Would they put him on Towns? [26:59] in game three a little bit. What are they going to do to try to disrupt Towns? Castle has been the guy disrupting Brunson, but do they try to flip it around and [27:07] move him around and just try to unleash him as, as this like intangibles force versus somebody that's, [27:14] It seems like he has the ball a little bit more than he should, and Harper doesn't have the ball enough.

[27:19] When I think of the moves... [27:21] Les Castle. [27:23] Lower castle usage rate would be my first one. [27:28] I would use Carter Bryan as the backup center against Towns. I like Cornette, but we've just seen too much of the playoffs. Cornette comes in and you immediately feel like the Spurs are going to [27:37] going a 2 to 10... [27:39] The opposite of a run. [27:41] I would use Bryant against Towns. I love Bryant. [27:44] I actually don't think they're using him enough to say, I know he's 19. I know he's a baby.

[27:49] And I mean a baby, like literally he's like a young, young NBA players two years away from being able to legally drink. [27:57] I think they need his physicality because if you're talking about the one thing this first team has been missing all season, it's been, [28:04] That prototypical [28:06] Physical four. [28:08] that you could put next to Wemby that could guard like the Towns, Julius Randles, those type of guys. It's really Carter Bryant. [28:14] And, um, [28:16] If I were them. [28:17] I would lean on him more and I would lean less on Cornette.

And then the biggest thing is, [28:22] Harper has to be on the floor even more, and they have to use Harper at crunch time. I think he only played four minutes. [28:27] in fourth quarter game one [28:30] Game two. [28:32] Played more. He ended up 32 minutes, but he's the least afraid guy they have on this team. I don't know why, but he just is. The guy is like born for this. [28:41] I really am careful to bring this up, and I think I've even said this before, but the 2000 Kobe...

[28:48] came for Indiana, which was like really the beginning of The Legend of Kobe. [28:52] Um... [28:53] Shaq Foud out. [28:55] And... [28:56] I was living in Boston back then. [28:59] And like so many people my age and younger, like really, really thought Kobe had a chance to be the next Jordan or close. [29:07] And when Shaq fouled out, [29:09] I think everybody had the same thought. Like, [29:12] Huh, what do we have here with Kobe? It's time. Let's see it. And I think the thing everybody thought in the moment was this guy, whatever happens, this guy is not going to be scared.

[29:21] Harper is not scared. [29:23] He's the opposite of scared. I actually feel like, [29:26] he's the most aggro ready for this of anyone on their team. [29:32] It doesn't make sense. He's 20 years old. We've talked about on pods on the past about young point guards. [29:39] Um, this doesn't make sense. It just doesn't. [29:41] But it's the reality of the situation. [29:45] This guy's not scared. He needs to play more. And he probably needs to have the ball. Like you think about some of the terrible shots they had.

[29:52] in the last three minutes of the game which are always like these fall away 22 footers these [29:57] contested threes, like these shots in traffic. [30:00] I like all the decisions the situation Harper is in with the ball. [30:05] I just feel the best about it. I don't understand why they don't run pick and roll with him and Wemby. I just... [30:10] I just would have the ball in his hands way more than they do. And maybe that would be. [30:14] This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market.

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[31:25] in the hairiest situations possible. They won a game one and a game seven OKC. I know this Knicks [31:31] Game's going to be a madhouse tomorrow in Game 4. And the crowd's going to be incredible. And I honestly can't wait. [31:37] - OKC's crowd is really loud. It's not really gonna be a louder crowd than OKC. Like if OKC, if you could criticize the crowd or anything, it's like a constant loud noise. [31:47] that your head hurts after two hours of it. [31:51] But it's not going to be louder than that crowd.

And they went in there and they won. So I don't think they're going to be scared unless this game two loss was just the most damaging thing ever. Trump's going to screw up the game three. And I don't mean it from being there. I'm not talking about politics. It's going to take two hours to get in there. [32:08] the game will probably start 15 minutes later than it should. [32:13] Which means like these games are already starting around like 840, 841. [32:18] East Coast time. The game will probably start closer to nine.

And if you remember, like in the 22 finals, [32:23] They were starting the East Coast games super late. And I... [32:28] I went to game three and I went to game six. I didn't go to game four. [32:35] I thought it affected the crowd. [32:38] The game would start at like 9.15. The crowd's out. They've had dinner. They've had drinks. They kind of peek around... [32:44] that 7.30 to 10 range. And by the time you get into the second half, it's late. It's like past 11 o'clock, you feel like you've had all this energy and, [32:53] it's a weird dynamic.

I just think [32:57] I think this is, if I'm the Spurs, this is the kind of crowd slash time situation you're going to want. [33:04] where it's just going to feel... [33:06] disjointed and you want disjointed when you're on the road. And then the last thing is Wemby. Wemby is a great player. Wemby in the second half of game two at 22 points, [33:15] I thought he was all over the place defensively covering the rim. He's taking some shit because when he's 25 feet out from the basket, guys have gone by him.

Guess what? He's the center. [33:25] Name anyone over seven feet that that would happen to. I just think like if you're criticizing Webby's defense in this, you're nuts. [33:33] But he hasn't been the best part in the series, and I'm not even sure... [33:36] He's been the second best player in the series. So, [33:39] Is he going to dig deep? [33:41] Is this... [33:43] going to be like that game too is the before and after of, oh, [33:47] That hardened him. That taught him how to win. Or is he just going to go sideways like Shaq did in 95?

We will see. If you're the Knicks... [33:55] You got no calls in game two. You still won on the road. You got no calls. [34:00] And I actually, I didn't do a FanDuel pick for game two. I did bet on the Spurs money line with an adjusted over. [34:07] Because I thought the officiating was going to be what it was in that game. And it was what it was. [34:12] We all saw it. [34:14] They even rescinded the Mitchell Robinson technical after the fact, which is an idiotic, ridiculous technical at the time.

The Towns game, the third and fourth fouls on Towns. [34:24] We're atrocious. [34:26] Um, [34:27] So you still win that game and you could argue if, if the, [34:31] officiating was a little more balanced. Maybe you win that game by 10. [34:35] If you're the next person [34:37] you have to assume Brunson's shots are going to start falling. [34:41] that he's just, even down the stretch, they miss some wide open threes. Brunson missed some shots he just normally makes, so. [34:49] You have to assume he'll be better. [34:51] You have to assume the crowd's going to be incredible, and that's almost definitely to your benefit.

We'll see. We'll see what the... [34:58] how disjointed it is. And you're going to be ready for more Harper in this game. You know, that's like the one thing that Spurs can do is unleash Harper a little more. So you got to be ready and got to plan for that. Okay. [35:09] Last thing, Carl Anthony Towns. [35:13] Been thinking about this a lot because I don't really remember... [35:17] Anything totally like this happening before... [35:20] in an NBA playoffs, where somebody that, [35:23] was a really good [35:25] pretty flawed star.

[35:27] who I think made the last three worst contracts draft that I did with House and Wiles. [35:33] But we all thought he was good. [35:34] Anytime we did a ringer 100, he was always in the top 30 or 35. He's made... [35:40] Two second team on BAs or one second team on Bay and two thirds. [35:45] He's... [35:46] averaged 23 and 11 for his career for the regular season. [35:51] 52, 40, and 84 shooting percentages. [35:54] If you just look at [35:57] The guys... [35:58] in the history of the league who've played at least 700 games.

[36:02] and averaged 22 and 11. [36:04] right not crazy 22 and 11 700 plus games [36:08] Jokic, Wilt, Elgin, Barkley, Kareem, Bob Pettit, and Carl Anthony Towns. [36:14] So, [36:14] This is somebody that the stats always favored. Somebody that I think after his career, we probably like in the basketball reference, looking back era, the stats would have been more favorable to him. [36:27] And yet with somebody none of us trusted, [36:29] And that's just the way it is. [36:33] But [36:35] when you think about [36:36] The Knicks make this trade two years ago.

And basically, they don't have a center because they lose Hartenstein. [36:42] Hartenstein getting poison-pilled basically by Oklahoma City and the Knicks losing Hartenstein leads to the townstrand. [36:48] They're heading toward this season. [36:49] And they decide we have no chance unless we have some sort of center. [36:53] Towns' contract is scary. [36:55] we can give up Brando and DiVincenzo and get him. And they basically just bet on the pedigree. They bet on a guy that Wes and Leon had known since he was 15 years old. [37:04] When they were, when Wes was trying to recruit him at Kentucky, they'd known him forever, right?

They're betting on the pedigree. [37:11] Now, sometimes this doesn't work. [37:13] Didn't work with Darko. [37:15] Remember, I think Orlando traded for Darko. Didn't work. [37:18] Thabit. Did Thabit ever have pedigree? He was taken second. [37:22] Michael Beasley is a good one. Michael Beasley, always one of the best two or three high school players in his class all the way up. [37:29] Put up, I think, 25 and 10 in college. [37:32] Was a little out there, to say the least, personality-wise, but there was pedigree there, and a bunch of teams took chances on him.

Never happened. And then Ben Simmons was a good one. [37:41] Oh, he's fine. It's just the Philly thing didn't work out. You just got to change the scenery. Well, that didn't work. [37:47] DeAndre Ayton sort of. [37:49] Portland and the Lakers. [37:51] So this doesn't always work. And there's a million more examples than that, but there's, [37:56] This is something GMs think about. If somebody was a top five pick, a top three pick, the first pick in the draft, [38:02] Maybe they were in the wrong situation. Maybe you could flip them to another situation.

It works way better in baseball. It's worked in football sometimes, um, [38:11] where especially with quarterbacks where they flip teams and things can change. In basketball, Wiggins was a great example of this in Golden State. Wiggins, we'd all kind of given up on as a meaningful player and he had a bad contract. Goes to Golden State. He's their second best guy in the 2022 finals team. Aaron Gordon's sort of like this. He was the fifth pick in the draft. We all loved Aaron Gordon. [38:33] Um, but just, uh, [38:35] Never...

[38:37] Never really had it in Orlando, right? Goes to Denver and becomes this crucial guy in their 23 team. Rasheed... [38:45] was a good one. Rashid had been in some big moments and had had probably more success than Towns. [38:50] but was too much of a hothead. [38:53] Set the technicals record. And by the time he lands in Detroit, the question was, [38:59] Wasn't for me because I like the trade, but, um, [39:02] Is that too risky? [39:03] Do you want to be in business with Rasheed Wallace? Well, they ended up beating the Lakers that year.

Chauncey Billups is a great one for this. [39:11] Chauncey Billups, I was in Boston going to all those games because my dad never wanted to go Patino's first year. [39:16] We traded him after 50 games. [39:18] in a Kenny Anderson trade and [39:21] Um, [39:22] I remember kind of liking the trade when it happened. I didn't know what Chauncey was. [39:27] I couldn't tell if he was a point guard or a shooting guard or what he was and, [39:31] He could go to the basket. He was a really good athlete.

But I learned a valuable lesson from that, which is don't give up on young guards and especially young point guards because – [39:42] He bounced around. He went to Toronto. He went to Denver. [39:46] went to Minnesota, and then finally ends up in Detroit. Detroit bets on the pedigree, and guess what? He becomes one of the better playoff players we had in the 2000s. [39:55] Robert Parrish is a good one for this. He was, I think the sixth pick in the draft. Um, [40:00] Golden State kind of cooled off on them.

And when Red Auerbach wanted McHale, ends up trading back from one to three and getting Robert Parrish. So those are probably Wiggins, Gordon, Rasheed, Billups, Parrish are five really good examples of this, a bet on the pedigree. [40:14] And it makes you wonder when you're watching what's happened with Towns. [40:17] Two lessons. One, [40:20] Do you look at a couple guys we have in the league now a little more closely? [40:24] Um, [40:25] I don't think Evan Mobley counts for this because Evan Mobley's already good. I think he's [40:30] He's been on at least one All-NBA team.

Cleveland made the Eastern Conference Finals. He's a max guy. I wouldn't put him in the town's camp. [40:39] Jabari Smith. [40:41] Scoot Henderson. [40:44] Neither of them had the most success as Towns has had over the course of his career. [40:50] Zion? [40:51] Thank you. [40:52] Higher peak. [40:54] in Towns, but no playoff footprint at all and not as durable as Towns. [41:00] John Moran. [41:02] There's off the field, off the court stuff with John that I think, I don't think Towns had red flags like that. So maybe it's Zion.

[41:09] As somebody – [41:11] Because the thinking is when somebody hits their mid late 20s, [41:14] Do they mature? [41:16] Do they... [41:17] round into something different than what we know now, right? So, [41:21] The case for Zion would be, [41:24] Well, what if he just became more mature and got an awesome shape and went to the right team and could be unleashed as this different kind of force? [41:32] Um, that's one lesson is, is, is, [41:35] Think about the pedigree. Are there other guys like this? The other one would be don't overreact to a bad series.

[41:41] So in 24 against Dallas... [41:44] Towns was awful. [41:46] Like, really awful. And when Towns was bad, he's bad. Like, Towns, people... [41:52] A lot of people in my life, some people that have had pods for The Ringer or have left The Ringer, were just completely out on Towns. Towns in that series... [42:00] was 20 and eight, but he shot 38%, 24% from three. Dallas was fucking with him in all these different ways, and it just felt like the dumb foul stuff was never gonna end. And I remember after three, I went and I actually found this text, Minnesota's down three to Dallas in 24, and I started texting house at halftime of game three,

[42:22] that Townes was going to be on the Wizards next year. And House was really mad. He's like, stop it. That's not funny. It was like a lot of epithets from House. [42:30] Um, [42:31] That's how bad it got for Towns. So when they traded for him, [42:35] Huge contract. And we were just coming off the worst series of his career. Well, what happens? Um, [42:43] this playoffs he's unleashed. [42:46] And I don't really fully have an explanation for it because I can't think of [42:51] Another example like this. [42:54] of somebody that I had already decided on as a player.

[42:57] who then dug deep and completely surprised me in a completely different way. [43:02] Um, [43:03] I got an email from Mike from Toronto. [43:06] After game two, Charles Barkley said he was criticized in Minnesota, criticized in New York. Cat is the finals MVP. [43:13] I actually think he might be the final. Now there's two more games, but I think he would be the leader for me. [43:19] Barkley said it was the best two games I've seen a big man play. That feels a little strong. [43:23] Um, [43:25] Is this the greatest change of opinion about a player we have seen?

[43:28] It's a really good question because I think all of us had decided on towns and what we had decided is, [43:37] Good stats. Seems like a really nice guy. [43:40] but it's pretty flawed and is going to, [43:44] have dumb fouls and do dumb things at the worst possible times. And that's just who he is as a player. [43:49] I decided that. [43:51] Um, [43:52] So I was thinking about [43:53] An actual change of opinion, there's got to be three... [43:57] three qualities here. [43:58] Has to be somebody we were really down on.

[44:01] Has to be somebody who is good enough to at least make an all-NBA team or be in the mix in a conference finals or even a finals team. [44:08] It has to be somebody that [44:12] either won a title or kind of came close. So that rules out Vince Carter. [44:16] Because Vince Carter, to me, was the most disappointing player of the 2000s, just for what the potential was. But the peak of his career was probably losing the seven to Philly in round two. It wasn't ever like he got close.

Chris Webber is a really good one. [44:32] I thought Chris Webber was going to be the best forward of the 1990s. And the timeout, I think, changed him. [44:39] in a bunch of different ways. And I don't even think that's an opinion. I think that, [44:43] kind of sapped him of something. And, you know, the Golden State thing got weird. He went to Washington and just was really disappointing, right? And gets traded to Sacramento for an older Mitch Richmond, [44:56] And at that point, [44:58] It felt like a good flyer.

[45:00] Sure. Chris Weber, maybe. And then he turned into one of the best five guys in the league there. [45:05] But they never even made the finals. And then the one that's probably the closest to this is Dirk, post-2007. [45:13] after... [45:15] They lose 06 finals and then they lose to Golden State in the 07 playoffs. And eventually that leads to him doing the Australian trip. But I had just given up on Dirk being the best guy on a championship team. I didn't think it was possible. And then in 2011...

[45:30] He had one of the great resurgences slash rejuvenations in the history of the league. [45:36] And blows through everybody. I think he beats the Lakers. He beats OKC. [45:41] Maybe... [45:42] Memphis or San Antonio and then [45:45] in Miami in the finals but just it was a murderer's row and he just went through it and demolished everybody [45:53] So Dirk is still the number one thing for this, but in Dirk's case, he'd won an MVP. He'd made the finals. [45:59] He was one of the best players of the 2000s.

Towns was never as good as Dirk. The Dirk thing, the Towns thing, [46:06] TAN's becoming this cerebral... [46:09] awesome, never has not made dumb plays at all. [46:14] In the entire playoffs. It's almost like. [46:18] like he, [46:19] if you changed your meds for a little kid or something, like you had a hyperactive little kid, [46:24] And little kid went on meds and just became a different kid. You're like, hey, what's different about that kid? [46:29] Towns, it's like he's having like a somebody changed his med series, even though I don't probably isn't on meds.

[46:34] But, um... [46:35] It's been so dramatic, I almost can't believe what I'm watching. [46:39] That first half he played in game two was one of the best halves of [46:43] I've seen best... [46:44] Both end halves I've seen a center play. And I think the guys at halftime were totally right. I think Wemby was shook by it. He's like, I thought I was going to have a huge advantage of this guy. I went into the series thinking Towns was going to be the number one reason that they [46:56] that they were going to be in trouble for this series.

And it's been the opposite. So, [47:00] Watching this town's resurgence has been fantastic. [47:03] A couple more emails, then we're going to get to Adam Friedland. [47:06] Max V says, Livia and Matt, and I can say this is the most excited I've seen this city ever. [47:12] Um, [47:13] about a possible championship. People are going fucking nuts. The odds are obviously against it. [47:17] But knock on wood, if the Knicks blow this series, not putting that out there, but he's, he wrote this as an email. If the Knicks blow this series.

[47:26] Would this be the biggest gut punch loss of the 21st century? [47:29] All right, I thought about this. [47:31] Um, [47:33] The formula would be how long was the drought? [47:35] How gigantic is your fan base and how egregious was the collapse? [47:41] So the 86 Red Sox. [47:44] is a great example of this. The Red Sox hadn't won in... [47:48] 66 years. [47:51] Sawro was! [47:52] 68 years. 68 years. I can still do math. Red Sox haven't lost in 68 years. [47:58] 13 strikes to win the World Series and lost.

[48:02] Um, [48:03] And that was the biggest gut punch, I think, of the 21st century for a sports team and a fan base. [48:09] years to recover. I think it was actually genuinely damaging for a whole generation of younger fans, including myself. [48:16] The 94 Rangers are a good example of almost having this happen, but they didn't because you forget they're up 3-1 in the finals against Vancouver. [48:25] They come home for game five. It's almost like this Knicks series right now. Prices are through the roof. Everyone wants to be in the building for when they win.

[48:33] They blow game five at home. They lose game six in Vancouver. And now there's two days off before game seven. And... [48:40] I knew some Rangers fans and still do. [48:44] That was an all-time people freaking the fuck out 48-hour span. And then they end up eking out Game 7 and winning it. So it was all fine. But – [48:55] I would say if the Knicks blow this at this point, [48:59] I don't know if it would have a parallel this century. [49:02] Because it's unlike the Falcons-Patriots where it's 23, you blow a game in an hour and a half.

This would be... [49:07] You would have to blow this over... [49:10] a week and a half. [49:11] And, uh, [49:13] It wouldn't. [49:15] be a all time historic collapse because nobody's ever won the first two on the road and then lost the final. So, um, [49:23] James from Brooklyn wants to know if [49:25] Towns wins the title. Would Minnesota fans be more bitter about trading with Cat or Garnett? [49:30] And then he says, "How long until Ant leaves for a title somewhere else?" That was me and James. [49:37] I'd be more bitter about the cat trade.

Garnett wanted to leave the team. [49:41] The team should have traded him even two years before they did. And he had no chance to win a title there. And you had to trade him and you had to rebuild. That was the right move. [49:50] The cat thing... [49:52] Really did seem more financial than anything. And they had had success with him already. They just made the conference finals with him. I mentioned that was a tough series for him and for the team. [50:01] But that to me was a financial trade.

[50:04] It was a chance to reset [50:06] a year from now with new ownership. [50:09] and try to get Randall on a lower deal and just not have to pay in the 50s for Cat and Anthony Edwards at the same time. And I don't think a lot of teams...