#2510 - Devon Larratt

[00:00] the Joe Rogan experience train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day check what's happening my man I'm so happy so happy to see you wow what's going on thank you so much first of all my pleasure [00:20] I feel like... [00:21] you know? [00:22] You are the loudspeaker of the planet, man, and I'm so honored to be here. That's a very uncomfortable position to be in, I'll tell you that. It's very weird. Yeah, I bet. I bet. But look, I mean, you've talked to everybody on the planet.

[00:35] I think I'm honored to be your first arm wrestler. Well, if I'm going to have an arm wrestler, it has to be the GOAT. Oh, highly debated, highly debated, but I'll take it. You're in the conversation. Yeah, I'm in the conversation. There's a couple of us, I think. John Brzezink. I don't know. How close do you follow arm wrestling? Very little. Yeah. I follow you. [00:55] I'm most fascinated by the fact that you can't extend your arm. His arms don't straighten out. No, they don't, unfortunately. That's crazy. Yeah. It didn't work when I was trying to fight Thor either.

It kind of limited the extension. But when did that start happening? So I was... [01:18] I got into club arm wrestling. I arm wrestled with me when I was a kid, but I got into club arm wrestling around like 18. By the time I was 20 or so, we have this champion called Crazy George. [01:32] Okay. He's like a very old, very decorated champion. And he famously at the time for me, he couldn't straighten his elbows. And I was like, Oh, man, I can't wait till my elbows don't straighten. Like a silly, a silly wish, right?

So it started early, like, I think I was like, probably like, [01:53] in my late 20s. And the range started to shrink. And what is that from? [02:00] It's just pressure mostly. Like just the constant pressure on the elbow joint causes osteophytes potentially. And it doesn't happen to all the arm wrestlers. Have you got an MRI on it? I've had three surgeries. To straighten them out? To remove bone and scar tissue. Just chipped bones and stuff? Chipped bones. Dr. Pollack, bless his soul, at the Ottawa Hospital has extended my career until this age.

[02:30] So, yeah, that's probably one of the worst chronic conditions that arm wrestlers get is, you know, if the bone growth gets bad enough, it can start to constrict your nerves or blood flow, and that's when it becomes a problem. Has that happened to you? 100%. Yeah? Yeah. So I was probably, it was like 2013, so... [02:52] like 13 years ago is when I had my first surgery and at that point like trying to move forward trying to move forward and Pull it out as far as you can go. That's it.

That's it, buddy. [03:03] That's it. Wow. Yeah. The left is a little more than the right, it looks like. Probably a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And I've had two surgeries on the right, one on the left. But in my mind, it's a small price to pay. [03:15] You know, like I'm I'm as all in in arm wrestling as you can possibly be. And this is our cost of admission for some of us, you know, and does that happen to every arm? No, no, no. There's lots of arm wrestlers. It's it's a style thing.

It's a genetic predisposition. It's I rolled the dice wrong one day and had a bad match. You know, I think what happens is. [03:40] It's really, it's the pressure, it's the bones over time, if you're, and then it's, [03:47] If you're a dummy and keep on doing it when you should probably rest, that probably doesn't help. And I'm guilty. [03:55] Like most of the greats. Anyways, it doesn't affect me in the sport. I actually call it weaponized arthritis because there are ways you can kind of make your loss of range work for you at times.

[04:12] Really? Yeah, because there's like, right, you know, like if you're doing an arm bar, okay, like your body resists with the ligaments and the tendons. So that starts higher for me. And I think that there's a muscular strength component that kicks in as well right at the end of the range to protect you. So I just have a higher strength. [04:32] uh... you know [04:33] arm bar you know does it did it help you in arm bars as well oh god no it doesn't a good jiu-jitsu guy is still gonna he's still gonna arm bar me no it's also the bones would just snap yeah it's just gonna snap higher yeah yeah snap in bad places yeah did you ever try hanging from like a chin-up bar to straighten it out um [04:52] I've tried a lot of things.

I saw a video with you and Juju Mufu. Yeah. Is that how you say his name? Yeah, Juju. Juju. Juju Mufu? Yeah, Juju Mufu. Okay. John Call. Yeah, he's great. He's great. He's such a character. But they were rolling. They were trying to do some stuff with these big metal bars to roll out your muscles. Uh-huh. And you were in fucking agony. I was like, that is crazy to watch. Yeah. You really can't straighten your arm. And when they were trying, you were screaming. Yeah. [05:22] It's terrible. I've kind of just accepted it.

Did you ever try to hang? I've tried so many things. But when I was young, when I was 20, I was wishing for the day. [05:35] that I could be like Crazy George. Yeah, I'm going to straighten out. It's interesting, you know. If I was all about straightening my arm, [05:45] I could probably still do it because the bone is actually removed. Now it's a sheath. There's like a capsule that surrounds a joint that is probably the root cause of it. What is the capsule made out of? I believe it was a fascia, just connective structure.

I think it encapsulates the joint. So everything is just sort of condensed to hold the joint together? I think so. Wow. Yeah. It's kind of a unique study. [06:15] anatomy, you would say, okay, what is possible? [06:19] Do you know about David Goggins' knees? I know David Goggins. I don't know about his knees. His knees are so great. He's bone on bone with both knees. And he went to the doctor, and the doctor said, I don't know how you can walk with these knees. Forget about run thousands of miles. So his knees had the – what is it called, Jamie?

It's like wolf something. Yeah. [06:42] It's like there's a condition. [06:44] when you're bone on bone for so long, where the bone actually spreads out. And the doctor said, [06:50] I'd heard about this in theory. I've never seen it on an actual human being where his knee, the bone had grown out so weird that his knees were moving at like odd angles. So they had a saw his tibia. [07:04] and move his knee down. So he's still bone on bone, but now he has a flat surface. [07:11] And so they cut it and then screwed it into place.

[07:15] And then he just rode a stationary bike for like fucking five months like a maniac and then started running again. Bone on bone. Beautiful. Love it. It's crazy. He's wild. See if you can find what the condition is. It says it's called Wolf's Law, biological principle stating that bones adapt and grow thicker and denser than physical stress. Is that... [07:35] I think that's it. Yeah. And his grew thicker and like kind of mushroomed out at the top of the knee. [07:42] Because there's nothing there. There's no... [07:45] And it's just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

Yeah. So it just kept growing out. And if you see, do we have the images of the surgery? I know I sent it to you a long-ass time ago. Yeah, I mean, it's showing a bunch of pictures from when he was on here. So see that where he, the fingerprints on his shin? That's because he had so much edema on his leg that he could squeeze it and put his, that's after the surgery. Awesome. Yeah, but look at the actual, yeah, look at that, the photo of what the knee looks like.

That's not him. [08:13] That was on him. [08:14] That's like an image of what it looked like. Okay, so they saw it, and then they screw it down in place. Okay. [08:22] They saw it slightly, you know, like a wedge off a piece of wood. [08:26] You lower it. [08:27] level it out, and then screw it in place. [08:30] So [08:31] This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience is brought to you by Paramount+. UFC history is going down at the White House. It's the world's greatest fights on America's biggest stage.

Watch UFC Freedom 250 at the White House live today only on Paramount+. [08:50] This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills. If you enjoy food, and I mean really good food, Traeger is a game changer. This isn't just a grill. It's the ultimate way to cook outdoors, delivering unbeatable wood-fired flavor thanks to the all-natural hardwood pellets that fuel everything you grill, smoke, or bake. That's it. Just wood and fire and flavor. And what's truly wild is how easy it is. [09:20] Traeger handle the rest. Grilled steaks, smoked ribs, even baked pizza, all on one grill.

If you're into fire, flavor, and doing things right, check out Traeger Grills. [09:32] This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist and trust me, I know... [09:58] I buy one, the Farmer's Dog.

I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier and isn't getting more time with our four-legged [10:28] best friends something every dog owner wants the answer to that is yes obviously so try the farmer's dog today and get 50 off your first box of fresh healthy food [10:41] Plus, get free shipping.

Just go to com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. Yeah, for sure I have something similar. I've been bone on bone for probably two decades. Really? Yeah. All the cartilage is gone. [10:57] Nothing. So when I went in and got my surgery, the doctor told me there's nothing there but bone. He said, Devin, maybe we can give you another couple years on your... [11:11] On your career, maybe. How long ago did you say this? That was... [11:16] like 15 years ago. I'm probably, no kidding, I probably pulled off my best show ever six weeks ago.

Really? How old are you? I'm 51. That's amazing. And I have another shot at the world title. I'm still number one in the divisions. So, you know, I'm lucky, but, [11:35] I think it's all [11:36] The doctors will say something, but it's just not true. [11:40] you can do anything. Well, Goggins is a perfect example of that, and I guess so are you. It's like the idea that... [11:47] you can't do something is based on when most people quit. [11:51] Yeah, pain is an interesting thing to try and master. [11:57] It's information and you have to be able to live with it and work with it, but it's [12:02] It's good.

It's good to have this pain because it's kind of a guide on where you need to get better. [12:09] You know, the tendons and the tendinous structures of the elbow are super, super taxed in arm wrestling. And the process of rehabilitation and development of these structures is... [12:21] under great duress and trauma is difficult, and it requires a lot of time and monotony, which a lot of people aren't willing to put in. I'm shocked at how much time grip training takes. [12:34] Yeah, it takes forever. I've been trying to jack my, my, the, those grip strength things, the strongest I ever got to is one 64.

And I'm like, I want to get to 200. I feel like in my lifetime I can get to 200. I can't get past one 64. And the thing is like, I keep lifting weights with my arms. I keep, and I've always tired. So like every time I squeeze that thing, um, my hands are always sore. So I'm like, shit, I got to take some time off to see if I can get it [13:04] And I've got the forearm finisher from Golden Grip. Yeah. And I've got these big fat things that I use for cables to rotate wrists.

[13:13] My hands got bigger. I'm definitely stronger. But it's like, I don't know when to lay off of it. How many days a week do you do grip training? What's your guess? Every day. Of course. Every day. Every day. And is that the way to do it? Is that the smart way to do it? Because I know you talk to a lot of those rock climber guys, and they have the craziest grip strength. Yeah. [13:36] One of the things that I'll just say right away is a lot of people associate grip with arm wrestling, and 100%.

[13:43] It's of massive importance. But the real technical nuance of the sport is to try and make the other person hold on to you. Right? So it's not necessary. Grip is more like defense and added offense. But the first step is to try and tax the other person's grip. How do you do that? I think that everything... [14:06] We're opening up technical arm wrestling. Open it up. Let's go. [14:13] From my position, the opening move in arm wrestling is a concept called rising. Like, you know the movie Over the Top?

Mm-hmm. Okay, this is the opening step of the sport. And what it is is basically an attempt to get a better grip. [14:29] And if I can, the concept of making the other opponent hold on to you, that's the first step in technical supremacy. [14:37] Okay, if you can make the other person hold on to you, if you can touch their fingers, if you can get their fingers activated, [14:44] and they're holding on to you, they're less efficient. Okay. Yeah, so it's about attacking weakness more than it is about going where you're strong.

So they're the most efficient when it's palm to palm and everything's gripped nice and tight. As soon as you get out here. You want the pressure interaction to be unfair to your advantage. Right. Like if we were to arm wrestle, you would want to put the pressure in my fingertips with almost like a hammer-type motion. [15:14] It's almost like a curl. It's more complicated, but that's the first way to start to think about it. People think about arm wrestling and think about pinning each other. And this is a very short-sighted way to think about the sport.

[15:29] pulling the match close to you. This concept of rising is this upwards, spinning, slipping motion where the end result is you have a better grip. And anything that they try and do, it's going to go through the weakest system they have, which is their fingertips. [15:46] So it is great to have an awesome grip. That's not everything. [15:52] So... [15:52] Like proportionately in my workload, if I was doing 21 sets, 21 or I think I do 21 working sets typically in my workouts, I'd [16:01] one of them is dedicated purely to grip every day.

[16:05] All day. All day. So you just do them throughout the day. [16:09] I lead a very simple life at the moment. So structure it. How do you do it? [16:15] My structure right now, and I think that I'm probably one of the most dedicated arm wrestlers in the world in time, in terms of what I do with my life and how much energy I give the sport is... [16:29] I base it off of a week. So I train with the club. [16:34] probably twice a week. This changes, but typically I'm going twice a week, and these are my hardest days.

And I go in there and I just completely redline and max out in the sport. Okay, exactly what I've got to do, I'm doing at my highest, highest capacity. I have my family. We're all our wrestlers. So my kid, I mean, he's a pro too. Wow. Yeah, he's competing this weekend. That's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. [17:04] where we'll train together. But really two hard sessions a week and then whatever I fit in with my kids. And then the rest of the days are like, [17:16] mindless not just [17:19] the monotony level is extreme.

My wife and I, I'm retired, right? So I have nothing but time. [17:26] And I try to make... [17:29] I just try and put everything into it. So like... [17:32] It's all day, man. It's all day. I wake up and I'm training like all day. So these machines, like this is some of the shit that you have. Yeah. Now, is this a machine that's specifically designed for arm wrestling? Did this exist or did you help create this? [17:49] This machine is handed down for me from the best female arm wrestler ever to exist, Leanne Dufresne, Johnny Roberts.

This is a very standard arm wrestling equipment. It's basically an arm wrestling table with a cable system. This is super old. This table you're looking at here, that's a 40-year-old table. It's still working, but you can buy a pulley system on a table. This is basically all I do. [18:17] I work on off of a table, different angles, different pressures that all just replicate the pressures in arm wrestling. So you have a fat grip, looks like a PVC tube. [18:27] And then you're using that to work your fingertips and roll your wrists and just get to be really strong at that position where you're turning someone's wrist over?

We call that a multi-spinner. [18:39] And what's interesting about it is you see it's a single-point attachment. [18:43] So it's a little bit like Swiss ball for the wrist. So it's a Swiss ball. You know, like a Swiss ball, like people do like squats on them, like the ball in the gym. People do like. Oh, like a BOSU ball? Is that what it's called? BOSU is like a half, right? Oh, is that what it is? Swiss ball is like just a big round balls that. Okay. Yeah. And you see people.

Like a yoga ball, whatever they call them. Right. You ever jumped on a Swiss ball and done squats or anything? No. Okay. Well. I have the half one. Yeah. That I do stuff on. [19:13] is way more unstable. So it's a similar concept where it's very unstable through the wrist. And there's different wraps, but there's like a few base moves in arm wrestling, probably top rolling, [19:27] hooking and pressing. And you just do shit like this all day. All day. And this is in my taper. Okay. I know it's crazy.

That's the hardest part. [19:37] This is in your what room? This is in my basement. Oh, your basement. Yeah. And what you see here, this was actually my final workout before I pulled the Russian champion Vitaly Letton like six, seven weeks ago. So I've tapered. Normally, all these movements you see, I'm doing like a hundred repetitions. [19:57] So lots of blood flow. And when you're doing 100 repetitions, like what, 50% max weight? What do you weigh? Nothing. Nothing, like 20 pounds, something like that? [20:09] Really? Is that the key? [20:12] I'm a bit, I experiment a lot.

Okay. I've done so many different systems, but this is what I've come up with that I think is best. So basically it all revolves around these arm wrestling practice days. [20:24] where it's 100%, this is what I want my body to maximize about. But the off days, the Tuesday, the Wednesday, the... [20:34] It's all day just doing blood flow, just increasing the amount of blood that flows through the fascia, flows through these chains in armresting motions. And the hundred is all I'm trying to do is increase my circulation, especially through my connective structures.

And movement is so essential. [20:54] Why that over – why is that more beneficial than like hard strength training, like small reps, like low numbers of reps but high weight? [21:04] So – [21:04] Super debatable. [21:06] Okay, and I've done... [21:08] all of it. What I've found is, in my opinion, [21:13] you only have so much energy and this is something we got to really weigh in because if I could just smash, you know, heavy stuff all the time and take steps forward, I'd do it. But, um, [21:23] I found that you don't want to detract from the thing that you're really, really trying to do.

So anything that takes away from your ability to do that, I think you should look at cutting. [21:32] The best part of my training is on the table. So anything that kind of messes with that, I don't want to do it. I've done a lot of systems where I'm lifting heavy, but the thing is, is they take energy, they take resources. And what I really want to do is prepare my body so I can do that specific task as good as possible. [21:53] Heals me. [21:54] It heals me. A lot of people are like, oh, that's a lot of work.

And I'm like, it's really not. It's just – it's a form of healing almost. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Just the blood flow and the consistent movement and high repetitions. Yes. [22:11] This is highly debated, okay? But I'm proving it. [22:16] over and over, over the years. I started doing, because arm wrestling is a strength sport. [22:21] No doubt about it. [22:24] Right away, people think, oh, you know, heavyweight and, you know, high reps is dangerous because you're going to become an endurance guy and it's going to make you weaker. [22:34] But when you go low, your work volume is tremendous.

Okay, if you're doing light work, [22:41] lightweight all day long I mean the amount of total weight you're lifting becomes astronomical and I think that that adaptation over long periods [22:51] is wonderful, and you can't [22:53] get the blood flow through the connective structures without movement. So this is really why I do it. The healing aspects, the overall metabolic conditioning that you get. [23:06] Yeah, and the taper is a big part of it as well, you know. [23:11] But, yeah, I'm doing all my heavy lifting things. [23:13] specifically... [23:15] In the sport.

I'm not I'm not doing my heavy lifting at this time in my career. And also, I'm 51. [23:22] And I'm plagued with injuries, so I have to be very specific. I have to be very precise. Yeah, this is the best formula I've come up with. And when you were younger, did you approach it differently? I have made so many mistakes. What was the initial approach? Just lift as heavy as you can? [23:38] Yeah, lift as heavy as I can. Well, you're a giant dude already, right? So you already naturally have like big bones, big genetics.

So did you power lift? Like what did you do initially? I was a judo guy, I was a basketball guy, I was a military guy. So I did a lot of different stuff. I was very cross trained. I even did... [24:02] Iron Man for a bit. [24:04] That's got to be so hard for you. Yeah. All that weight. Yeah. So when I say Iron Man, apologies, not traditional, military Iron Man. What's the difference? Military Iron Man, you're doing it with a backpack, you're portaging a canoe, you're paddling, you're running with a backpack.

So that race, a winning time is probably anything under six hours, like five and a half to six hours. [24:32] heavier. So... [24:34] I'm still big. [24:35] Even for that, like most champions, most guys who win the Ironman are, you know, average size or even smaller players. [24:42] But, yeah, I mean, I'm a bigger person. [24:47] But, yeah, I did a lot of different sports. But I've always loved arm wrestling. It's always been the one I've come back to. It's, you know... [24:54] What is it about it? I think that there's a lot of things about it.

You know, for me personally, it was my first sport. Like, I started arm wrestling with my grandmother when I was like four years old. With your grandmother? Yeah. Really? Never underestimate the power of a grandmother. Yeah. [25:13] I was a rowdy little kid and, you know, with a German mother who didn't let me do too much crazy stuff around the house. And my grandmother used to come over and... [25:24] It was a reward system. She'd tell me to do chores, and the result was I got to arm wrestle with her.

Yeah. I never beat her. That's crazy. I never beat her. It's funny. [25:39] Her name was LaVon, and the current super heavyweight world champion is LaVon. [25:47] So I've never beat either of them. Yeah, yeah. It's been trippy. [25:52] Yeah, so I started young. I love arm wrestling because it's a very safe fight. [26:00] I love fighting. Everything in my life has been about fighting. And arm wrestling is one of those fight sports that has super low cost. Like we don't punch each other in the head. I'll be able to walk.

Nothing on my spine. My elbows don't straighten. So it's low cost. You can do it your whole life. We've had world champions in the open division who are almost 70. What? Yeah. What? [26:30] cool right that's incredible i love it how's that possible yeah it the hand is weird like this thing here is designed for volume and it just slowly builds you know the hand is the structure is has so much connective tissues in it so much tendon and that's just it takes so long to build you know age is an advantage in a lot of ways because you just have more time to get further [27:00] I'm telling you, I probably competed at the highest level, and I believe I can still go further.

It's non-typical, you know. It's non-typical. And the thing that I love most about it, [27:13] The very most is the family and the bonds, armrests and clubs are special places. [27:19] uh it's very blue collar open doors man there's there's not a lot of money associated with the sport in terms of membership fees right we are wrestling each other's garages and houses and um and it breeds a very tight family like i consider the club that i train with like they're my family like so um that's my i mean that's what sport's all about [27:42] Yeah, and arm wrestling is very conducive to that.

So when you say it's non-typical that you could compete at this level, at this age, what – [27:52] How old are most of the top guys? [27:56] You hit your probably peak typically when you are... [28:01] Low 30s. [28:02] So very standard, you know. That's my buddy Porkchop. Oh, there's Crazy George. This is the guy, okay? Which one's Crazy George? The dude who's down there, not the guy in the green shirt. So these are both my good buddies. And this is the guy who can't straighten his arms out? He can't, no.

He's super locked up, okay? So he's doing this move called a king's move, or outside top rule. And you see Porkchop's wrist is bent back. [28:27] I love Porky. I train with Porky twice a week. Um... [28:31] But, yeah, Crazy George. And Crazy George is like 160 pounds. Really? Yeah, and Porky's like 230, completely tremendously jacked and strong. Yeah, and Porkchop is like a professional arm wrestler pulling at East versus West. Okay, that's our highest league. And Crazy George is... [28:49] yeah he's that's incredible yeah it's completely incredible uh yeah there's another guy from our club matt smith against crazy george i think matt actually may have beaten him here this is actually the time period of crazy george's downfall okay so how old is crazy george in this film he'd probably be late 60s here okay wow yeah he's an absolute legend to me in sport like technically so this guy [29:19] it.

[29:19] Two up, two down. Go to tournament, double elimination. And that's the Canadian champ. These guys are all champions that you see him arm wrestling with. [29:27] and [29:28] He invented basically... He didn't invent it, but there were very few people doing this style of arm wrestling. We call it an outside top roll or a king's move. And he really figured it out. And... [29:43] Very difficult very difficult to deal with and what is he doing? He's dropping down a [29:50] and lowering his body weight. Yeah, so... [29:53] There's many kind of main strengths in arm wrestling.

Okay? There's rising strength. There's pronational strength. There's cupping strength. And this pronational, see this, like, this is like my favorite example. Jesus Christ, look at that thing. That's so weird. Show that. Show that. Look at that. Who the fuck has that muscle? Arm wrestlers. That muscle's so weird. Right, so that. I don't even think I have that. Where is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's right there. That's nuts. [30:22] Mine is non-existent I was going to interrupt, I saw it on this thumbnail and I was going to say what is that?

[30:30] That's fucking crazy It's one of my dreams to have bodybuilders when they're, you know, IFBB just to be doing pronator poses one day, one day I don't even have that You got to first turn your thumb down [30:43] like that yeah and pop your wrist back there it is see it there's that yeah yeah there you go that's the one that's the one fucking yeah little bitch ass muscle god that's hilarious that's gigantic yeah yeah yeah so like different styles in arm wrestling okay like they have different roots [31:04] Okay.

And [31:06] The king's move, top rolling in general, outside top rolling, is super dependent on pronation. So it's all this. Twisting, yeah. Twisting. It's weaponized, right? We get really strong. And there's a relationship between. [31:23] between all the angles in the hand the hand is very complex right all sorts of stuff it can do and [31:29] The main two drivers... [31:32] cupping we call it [31:33] flexion and pronation, and these two interact. So when one pronates, [31:39] It attacks the other one's cup. [31:41] So there's a relationship between them. So Crazy George is like...

[31:46] The master... [31:48] of [31:49] pro-national styles. King's Move is pro-national styles. I, over the course of my career, change techniques, change techniques. Probably my best technique is an open top roll [32:01] Or a king's move now. [32:02] Yeah, and I learned a lot. It's like the guy that one of my first coaches, a guy called Troy Eaton, [32:08] He... [32:10] He could never beat George. [32:12] He couldn't be George. We tried, we tried, we tried for years to figure him out. So, and that was back when I was like 20.

[32:19] Right. So I've been I've been studying this style for. [32:22] 30 years. [32:24] And, yeah, it's a combination of locks and giveaways and balancing. Arm wrestling things happen really quickly, very, very quickly. But it's a balancing act. [32:34] of all these different strengths. So what is it about you that's able to keep [32:40] competing at a very high level into your 50s? I think. Is it this approach where you're just doing all these reps all day long? Do you think that's a big part of it? Huge. [32:49] Huge. Huge part of it.

Because you're constantly forcing your muscles to work. You're constantly getting blood flow and you're not losing any strength. [32:57] Yeah. As you get older. It's a huge part of it. Yeah. My work volume probably exceeds... [33:04] most people in the sport with that. So metabolically and from a health perspective, it keeps my tendons and ligaments really functional. And, you know, I'm just a very simple and obsessed person. And I just, I arm wrestle at every opportunity. Don't you also have some very freaky genetics? Didn't Ryan? Yeah. [33:24] What is his last name?

Rossner. Rossner. This guy's the best. Very interesting guy. Smartest person I know. Geneticist. And he was explaining to me how... [33:35] unusual your genes are. [33:37] We all have unusual genes. Yeah, but you have really unusual genes. [33:43] Well... [33:44] That topic is so big, the genetic piece. I think that what a massive piece going forward for our species, the mastery of genetics. [33:57] It's right at the top, I think, of our... [34:01] highest priorities. There was a thing that they were talking about last night in the green room. See if you can find this.

They think they might have figured out a way to end Down syndrome. [34:12] They think they might have figured out a way with genetic engineering, with CRISPR or whatever they're using, whatever modalities they're using, to end Down syndrome. Sure. Which is wild. I think that there's so many answers. [34:24] With genetics. I personally believe that, and this is a big topic with freedom and everything like that, but I really believe that when you're born... [34:35] You should be swabbed. [34:36] and it should accompany your health card or whatever just as information.

There's so much. Well, it probably will be in the future as these – [34:46] All these techniques and all this new stuff comes out. CRISPR takes a bold leap toward silencing Down syndrome's extra chromosome. Wow. Wow. [34:54] So scientists have taken an important step towards a gene therapy that could one day turn off the genetic material that causes Down syndrome. Down syndrome is a genetic condition caused by an extra chromosome, 21, and consequently hundreds of triplicate genes that lead to developmental and neurological issues. According to Washington-based National Down Syndrome Society, one in every 640 babies in the United States is born with Down syndrome.

That makes it the most common chromosomal condition. [35:23] So there [35:25] So what is it doing here? Okay. So Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and Harvard Medical School found a way to silence much of the extra chromosomes activity in the cell at once. Details of the research are published in a paper in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Wow. So what is weird about your genes, though? Ryan told me, but I don't remember. He goes, you got to talk to him. Well, Ryan's actually got to talk to.

[35:55] several times. [35:56] to hang out with Ryan. I absorb everything I can from this guy. [36:00] But... [36:01] I think that my genetics, I think I'm predisposed to... [36:07] endurance actually. Endurance? I think so. I think if you take an overall look at my genetics, I think I have a lot of [36:15] you know favorable mutations [36:18] that are, you know, predispose me to good, but it's weird. I don't know, man. Listen, the genetic side of things, I'll sound silly if I try and talk too much about it. I'll just tell you that...

[36:31] There are favorable genetics for sure. You know, there's favorable mutations. And... [36:36] It's amazing, you know, [36:38] if you could capture... [36:40] All of them, from everybody. Mm-hmm. [36:43] put it together and you never know what. You'd get Brian Shaw. We've scanned Brian. That's the thing. So this project that Ryan is doing, and I like to help him out a little bit, we've been looking at elite performers and [37:02] with the goal to find favorable mutations. And, yeah, we scanned Brian. [37:09] He's in the Bible. Yeah. That guy's in the Bible.

He's like, you know, David and Goliath. Yeah. They're real people out there like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brian. So his genetics are one out of every 500 million people. Isn't that something crazy along those lines? Yeah. He's... [37:26] He's completely a – he's right at the peak of human performance. [37:32] Right from a genetic standpoint. Just freakish. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. When you're looking to hire, you consider someone's skills, experience, availability. But even more important than that is someone's enthusiasm. They should want to be there. Finding the right kind of motivation isn't as tough as you think.

You just need ZipRecruiter. Try it for free at com slash Rogan. [38:02] candidates instantly and their latest feature puts the most interested ones at the top of your list so you can make sure you're speaking with the right people at the start use zip recruiter and find enthusiastic talent fast four out of five employers who post on zip recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day and now you can try it for free at zip com slash rogan [38:32] slash Rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. This episode is brought to you by Dodge.

The new Dodge Charger scat pack is built for people who still believe driving should be exciting. You want to talk about performance? Let's start with a twin turbo six-pack gas engine. All gas, [39:02] Woo! Unlike vehicles that make you choose between traction and attitude, the Dodge Charger Scat Pack comes with standard all-wheel drive and a selectable rear-wheel drive mode so you can get confident handling when you want it and the freedom to still be able to do burnouts. [39:32] learn more at com dodge is a registered trademark of fca us llc free density yeah everything everything and it's not just his bone density the dude's mindset like there's many pieces of brian's genetics that that make him a champion um but yeah he has some stuff in him that [39:55] That Brian's never seen.

Yeah, no, nobody. And I probably shouldn't be speaking about other people's medical stuff, but I love Brian and he can sue me if he wants. Nobody has his growth hormone. [40:09] He has a different type of growth hormone. What do you mean? I don't think it's the same. [40:13] What? I don't think he has this. We're opening something so cool because you talked about the Down syndrome, and there's some very interesting stuff with that. [40:24] Brian, I don't believe that [40:26] Brian's growth hormone is the same as yours and mine.

What does that mean? It might be molecularly different or it might have... You're going to have to talk to Brian. His growth hormone is different? He's a different kind of growth hormone? He has a mutation in his growth hormone. [40:43] Well, that makes sense. Yeah, it does. I mean, he's almost seven feet tall and he's 400 pounds. Yeah, and he doesn't stop. He doesn't stop. But it's weird. The whole, like, Down syndrome thing, they can do stop codes. Like, some genes, like, some mutations that you get, from what I understand, there's, like, a stop code on a gene.

So whatever your gene is, when the, I guess, mRNA lands on it and starts to do its thing, like, there can be a stop code or something that just stops that gene from expressing it. [41:12] And I think that that's likely what they do with that. They'd somehow insert a stop code. But, I mean, there's people out there who have, like, world records. [41:22] like for things like deadlift. [41:24] that don't have fast twitch muscle according to their genetics. So it's really weird. What do you mean they don't have fast twitch muscle?

Like they have a stop code on their fast twitch genetics. [41:35] Just naturally. Doesn't make any sense at all. They're just born weird. Born super weird. Yet they're capable of beating world records on the deadlift. Wouldn't you think that deadlift is a fast twitch thing? Yeah. [41:47] So I don't understand. I don't either. It's an amazing field. Genetics is an amazing field. Is that a lack of understanding of what Fast Twitch do, or is it they can compensate? [41:59] With the other muscles, [42:00] In some way? I don't think it's other muscles because I think that it would probably apply to all the musculature.

So there's something that we don't understand. [42:10] There's something weird going on. Eddie, you can sue me. Eddie Hall, I love you. I love you. [42:17] Eddie's got a stop code. [42:19] In his jeans. [42:20] On fast twitch muscle? [42:22] Makes no sense. Well, that doesn't make any sense. Makes no sense. Because he moves so fast. I know. And he hits so fucking hard. That's crazy. It's crazy. How is that possible? I don't know. I've seen that guy hit mitts, and you're like, Jesus Christ. I know. Is this what the Hercules mean?

Not that? No. Something else? No. Okay. Oh, that's myostatin. That's myostatin inhibitors. Yeah. So it regulates the production of myostatin, a protein that stops muscles from growing too large. So with myostatin inhibitors, they've done that with, I'm sure you've seen those whippets that have it. Yes, of course. [42:52] Whippets are a weird dog. It's a very skinny, fast dog. And some Whippets are born with this genetic mutation. It's a myostatin inhibitor, and they look like the Hulk. Show an image of that, please. It is the craziest. It doesn't look like a real dog.

That doesn't look like a real dog. That's a crazy bodybuilder dog. [43:13] If you see a regular Whippet, [43:15] Show me a regular Whippet now, please. Yeah. Regular Whippets... [43:19] That's a, yeah, look at a regular whippet, like a real fast, almost like a greyhound-looking dog. And then you see the ones with the myostatin inhibitor gene, and you're like, what the hell is going on? They look like... [43:32] Like the most freakish bodybuilder of all time, but in a dog form. And some humans have that. Belgian blues also. The Belgian...

The cows. Yes. Yeah. And they have it too. Yeah. So they offer already genetic therapy... [43:47] that gives you full starten. [43:49] So there's a balance between folostatin and myostatin. [43:53] From what I understand, the key that turns on the cell for growth is, [43:59] Mm-hmm. Is... [44:00] is folostatin. And myostatin tells the cell to stop growing. You're big enough. Right. Important. Very important. Yeah. And so if you don't have myostatin, all that that turnkey gets... [44:14] is folostatin. So the only signal that you're ever getting with a myostatin deficiency is folostatin.

And so, yeah, so they offer a genetic therapy that... [44:24] increases your full stat. They offer it to who? [44:27] Hmm. [44:30] Anybody, anybody, anybody with enough money. Yeah. [44:36] There's a bunch of genetic therapies that they've already created. Folastatin is one of them. And so that would be for power lifters or football players or someone who just wanted to get fucking huge? Yeah. [44:45] I think initially it was created for longevity because as you age, your folostatin drops. And that's why people get smaller. They shrink as they get older.

Right. And folostatin just... [44:58] helps you maintain muscle mass. Yes. So it's, it's, I think it's mostly, um, [45:04] promote it as an anti-aging remedy, but absolutely. Like, you want to get... [45:08] your performance up. [45:09] They're doing so many wild things now. They've got this new therapy now for people with disc degeneration. I'm sure you have it. I have it. A lot of people have it, especially anybody who does jiu-jitsu has it. Your discs just get worn out from getting cranked on, and heavy lifters always have it, lower back issues.

The disc is the soft cushion in between the spinal columns, and those big bones push down that disc, and over time, and all that compression, it squashes. [45:39] But now they've got stuff that they can inject into the disk that inflates the disks. Yeah. And so all these people that have been getting artificial disks and fusions and all the problems that come with that, because there's massive problems, they're going to be able to eliminate that, which is… [45:55] amazing. Super cool. Oh, so super cool. And I tell everybody, if you can avoid back surgery, please avoid back surgery.

Don't fucking do it. There's a lot of different ways. Like, [46:05] I always tell everybody, and I'll tell everybody again, Louis Simmons, his invention... [46:10] that invention, the reverse hyper? Yeah. Fucking incredible. One of the greatest inventions ever for people with lower back problems. I have one here in the studio. I have one at my house. [46:21] I fucking swear by that machine. It's so good. It decompresses the spine on the D-cell and on the uplift when you're lifting up the weights. It strengthens the muscles out. It's like a perfect exercise for lower back issues.

[46:35] Yeah, it's wild when we look at the future in terms of performance and how far the age is being pushed. Like, we see Crazy George, but I think I'm optimistic that all the ages are just going to be pushed and pushed until... [46:53] You're probably maybe not going to be a champion until you're 60. That's crazy. Right? That's crazy. Well, that's for arm wrestling. Well, I wonder what's going to happen with regular sports. The stuff that's pushing this stuff is performance-enhancing drugs. [47:07] You know, peptides, stem cells, not really – that's not really a performance-handsary drug for injuries.

But testosterone, all these different steroids, all these different things. The thing about, like, combat sports in particular – [47:21] is that you can't use those things. They're not allowed. But when you can use them, you see these older athletes that have the mind of an older athlete, but the body that works like a young guy. My favorite example of that is Vitor Belfort when he was in his prime. TRT Belfort. TRT Vitor was the scariest fucking guy ever. Yeah. Because... [47:42] He was jacked up with testosterone, but he was also 37 years old with a lifetime of combat sport experience, a lifetime of intelligence, but hadn't lost any speed, hadn't lost any strength, and in fact had like superhuman speed and strength.

[47:54] Because he was... [47:56] Juicy, super juicy. But it makes you think like, man, what would the sport look like? [48:03] If that was open to everybody. Right. [48:06] Yeah. Interesting. It is interesting because there's a lot of guys that want to keep competing, but their body just doesn't respond the way it used to to training because they're 37 or 38 or 39 or – [48:19] But if you could get them on the sauce. Yeah. Yeah. [48:22] Right. Where's the limit? Yeah. Right. And why not let them? [48:26] Absolutely. Why not?

I'm a big believer in tested sport. I think that that's wonderful. And I think that that'll never go away, and I think it's important. But I'm also a believer in open up the gates and let everybody play. Well, that's why I really love this whole idea of doing the enhanced games. [48:45] It didn't really pan out the way everybody hoped. Nobody really won any records other than the one guy in the swimming, but he wore a prohibited suit that lets you swim quicker, apparently. I don't understand swimming. Yeah. But I was hoping, like, you were going to see some freakish superhuman performances.

But I feel like if that's going to happen, that's going to take years. I don't think you would get the kind of gains that these people are hoping to get to achieve, like, world record super freak human performance unless you're doing that stuff for a long – [49:15] well as anybody that training takes forever. It takes to build strength, to build speed, to build endurance. It takes a long ass time. You think you're going to get strength in three months. Like you get a little stronger for sure, but you're not going to get freakish.

[49:30] strength for fucking years. It takes years. Years. [49:34] decades like jujimufu like how long has that guy been lifting weights that guy's a fucking freak yeah yeah [49:40] Yeah, he can't build this stuff overnight. And I bet he would melt a piss cup. [49:44] Listen, I think that... Not a chance. Juju, look at myself included. I care about performance. [49:54] This is what I care about. And so many people fall into the same boat. Look at that guy. Dang, chance of hell that dude's natural. You know, I'll tell you, Juju is probably...

That's amazing, though, that he can do that. That kind of flexibility with that kind of mass is... [50:07] Look at that. While overhead pressing, a full side split that's nuts on chairs, Jean-Claude Van Damme style. [50:17] Juju started out tricking. [50:19] Okay. What does that mean? Like, it's a form of – because that sounds like – you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he actually started off – Sounds like he's picking up guys. Yeah, no, no. Juju is super cool. It's like flipping. He was on America's Got Talent?

Yeah. [50:35] Yeah. Oh, wow. It's like a form of like acrobatics or gymnastics. Right. Yeah. Well, I've seen him do acrobatic stuff and it's really nuts. Right. Like his physical ability, like it defies what you expect from a guy with that kind of mass. Right. [50:51] So he's a combined almost gymnast and bodybuilder. And he's probably better now than ever. [51:00] And he's, I mean, I think Juju's in his 40s. Wow. Yeah. And, yeah, he's massive and healthy and, you know, absolutely kicking ass. Probably the most positive human being that I've met.

He seems super positive. He is. In his YouTube videos. Yeah. And we have snorted his fucking smelly thoughts. Oh, yeah. It's strong. He's got the best stuff. He does. We've snorted his stuff about 100 times on this show.