The Knicks Land a Haymaker, With Doc Rivers. Plus, a Mini-Mailbag, the End of 'Euphoria,' and a Movies Resurgence With Joanna Robinson and Chris Ryan.

[00:01] *music* [00:06] This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by PayPal. [00:10] You know a clutch move when you see one? A no-look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steal? Well, imagine if your wallet, [00:16] could pull off moves like that. [00:18] That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now, you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony, Allbirds, and Viator. [00:25] Save offers before you check out. [00:27] earn unlimited rewards. Plus you can add those rewards on top of credit card points, [00:32] Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today.

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[02:30] But a lot of twists and turns. The Knicks pull it out. And I think we thought the same thing with about three, four minutes left. One team looked like... [02:38] They kind of knew what they were doing. And the other team looked like, [02:42] the playoff experience youth stuff was starting to creep in. I didn't like the shots I got. I didn't, I just didn't like anything. And the Knicks just went into Knicks mode. Yeah. I don't know though, Bill, there was youth, uh, [02:53] As far as at the end of the game, I would say this at the end of the game, if you told anyone, at least me, [03:00] before the game is going to come down to a single possession game, you're going to favor the Knicks because the Knicks know exactly what they're doing.

They're giving the ball to Brunson and they're going to play off Brunson and [03:12] San Antonio in any game down the stretch. You're not sure yet because that's where they are young. They haven't, the two-man game with Fox and Wimby, [03:22] is usually the play. They actually ran it. [03:25] Fox got a wide open shot that would have tied the game, if you remember. And he missed that shot. And then he followed up with a foul. [03:35] on, I think, Bridges, where Bridges had nothing. So those back-to-back plays, there were three plays that changed the game to me.

The offensive rebound, [03:44] that Bronson got and then got to three. The missed shot by Fox, where he would have tied the game up. Then Fox followed that up where he bailed Bridges out with a plow. That's a seven-point swing. [03:57] in a game. [03:58] And San Antonio couldn't recover. Then the turnover. [04:02] by Wemby was the final nail. [04:04] And then Brunson with the moon ball. Yeah. So it, [04:07] Santona takes the lead 95-94 in the two Wemby free throws, and then that whole sequence happens. Yeah. Fox... [04:13] Fox made that shot in Game 7 against OKC.

In this game, I think him and Wemby combined were 7 for 27. [04:22] Well, Fox is one of the most clutch players in the NBA over the last three years down the stretch of the game. He really hasn't been other than Game 7 Oklahoma. [04:33] That's their go-to play. And, you know, we know what the Knicks are going to do. And we pretty much know what San Antonio is going to do. They're going to go to the two-man game. Remember, they lost that game to Oklahoma where Fox wasn't there. They didn't have anything down the stretch to go to.

Well, they went to it. Fox got his shot, like, in the paint. [04:52] Perfect look for him, misses it. And then the Knicks are going to play Brunson ball from there on. So I just think it came down to little things. A couple things I was surprised by. And I was wrong. I was really surprised. [05:07] by Wimby guarding Towns to start the game. I was shocked by that. I was positive that Wimby would be on heart. [05:17] Champagne or anyone else would be on Towns. And the reason is that allows Wimpy to stay in the paint more.

If you look at the beginning of the third quarter, the Spurs did that. [05:28] And I actually turned to my son Spencer and I said, huh, maybe the Spurs are playing cat and mouse. Maybe that's what they wanted to do all along. But instead, they waited until the second half. [05:39] And it had some impact. They got out to a quick lead the beginning of the third. They really never went back to that coverage, you know. And Hart didn't play his normal big minutes. I think he played 26, 27 minutes.

So Mike Brown... [05:53] I got to tell you, Coach did his butt off tonight. He really did. [05:57] VAC. [05:58] I never also thought that Wemmey would be guarded by Carl Anthony Towns. Successfully. Yeah, you thought it would be a foul machine. [06:07] Well, I thought it'd be Fowles, and I thought it'd be Ananobi. Ananobi, I think, this year has the best plus minus in the NBA versus Wembe defensively. So I thought they would go to that, and they never even went to it. So when you look at the Knicks, they still have that in their bag.

[06:24] to go to. I thought Caronthony Towns, [06:28] played the game of his life. He was amazing. You know, my son especially turned to me and said, "Wow, [06:34] Minnesota traded Carl Anthony Towns. [06:39] And, you know, last year, no one was actually saying that, you know, because Carl was up and down. But I tell you, man, [06:47] uh second half of this season he's been absolutely unbelievable and again he's [06:53] Mike Brown has put him in a right spot to be successful. And you got to give Mike a lot of credit.

[06:57] Yeah, I had three heroes. Brunson, obviously, I think he had 19 in the second half. [07:02] Hart had 15 rebounds and six assists in 26 minutes. [07:06] And then I thought Townes took it to Wemby. I thought it was a stalemate at worst between them. [07:11] Not just statistically, but didn't seem afraid of him. [07:15] Went by him a bunch of times. That was the big thing. I had the numbers wrong on Wemby and Fox. They were [07:20] Nine for 34. [07:22] combined. And San Antonio, they only had two threes [07:25] in the second half.

They didn't shoot well. We'll go into some of the stuff they can do. - Yeah. - We can't lose sight of the biggest moment of this game that happened in the second quarter. [07:35] when somebody, I forget who it was, crashed into Brunson's knee. Yeah, it looked bad. I didn't think it was bad, honestly. When I saw it, I thought it hurt. And you know what I mean by that? I thought that was a scare. [07:49] because his knee didn't go all the way in. So honestly, I was sitting there.

I said, he's okay. It just scared the hell out of him. Then he didn't seem okay. Every Knicks fan in my life is like, are you serious? We just won 11 in a row. [08:04] We're in the finals. This is our guy. He's going to get hurt in the first half of the game. He goes into the tunnel. [08:09] And it's just pure panic. [08:11] And then in an hour and a half, it flips and he's the hero of the game. His ankle gets stepped on. I mean, this dude, he is just so tough.

The move he made late where he took the hit, got bumped. Give San Antonio credit. They did it all. The entire Oklahoma series where they stay down, they take the bump. And then you have to try to play through that. And Brunson makes that shot. [08:32] It just was a perfect moment for Brunson. [08:35] Well, explain this to me with Brunson. [08:37] SGA looks so uncomfortable against the Spurs team and all the guards. [08:42] And Brunson looked like within a half he had solved it in the second half. And he was getting – I actually thought he could add more points.

He missed a couple shots that he usually made. Is it because the Knicks had better three-point shooting or better space? Like what is it? What was the difference with them and OKC? Well, you just hit on one thing. They have way better spacing. All right? And they do a great job with their cuts and their spacing. That's number one. Number two, there was one time where he got in the paint, and you could see Wimby wanted to help. [09:12] corner to the three. Well, in the Oklahoma series, Wimby got to stay in the paint.

[09:18] He really never left the paint. It's almost like they decided, [09:23] If Caruso and those guys can make enough threes, we'll lose the game. [09:27] We don't think they can. And they were right at the end of the day. Barely, because Caruso and Wallace made like half the corner threes. Ultimately, it didn't matter because Chet didn't make anything. Yeah, and Caruso was amazing in that series. So, you know, New York, first of all, the one thing you got to give heart, he knows that. [09:46] Before the game, [09:48] that that's who they are going to put him on or they're going to try to help off of him he is a great cutter he's always in a dunker spot and that's why you remind me of rondo and rebounding you know yeah yeah well we put rondo in the dunker spot a ton why because when he didn't have the ball [10:06] If you didn't guard him, he rebounded the ball.

And it allowed Rondell to have a free run. [10:12] at the glass. If you watch Hart, there's no one blocking him out. He's just going to rebound. [10:18] He has a free lane right to go rebound because no one's guarding him. And he takes advantage of it. He's one of the great rebounders in our league at his size. [10:26] Well, and then on the flip side, [10:28] Vassell, Champagny, Harper, [10:31] and Castle, I think they had like 30 rebounds combined with six minutes left in the game. They were crashing the board.

San Antonio had 14 offensive rebounds. [10:39] And really it came down, they just couldn't make shots. [10:42] And if I'm, I actually, they had two timeouts with like three minutes left. Yeah. And we both had the same thought of like, they don't look right. [10:49] Feels like this is [10:50] maybe like reset this. Wemby looked tired. I don't know if he shot his wide in the first half or what happened, but [10:57] I don't know what the answer is. [11:00] That's actually the first half. Wendy looks mad up tonight. [11:03] It looks like they're speeding him up tonight.

I think he had six or seven turnovers, Bill. A lot of them were putting the ball on the floor. I would know, you know, we have all kinds of stats, analytical stats with a team. And one of the things I would look at first is how many dribbles did he have? I know that sounds crazy, but it felt like he dribbled the ball way more than usual. [11:33] I think that played right into the Knicks hands. I think they would take that. Harper was phenomenal to me. He played great, played normal, was funny.

[11:41] He just goes out and plays. And nothing kind of affects him. The two other guards, the three guards from San Antonio didn't have their best game. That's going to happen. That could be first game jitters. That could be all kinds of things. They'll play better. But... [11:57] the Knicks will play better too. I thought Ananobi, down the stretch, he started playing well, but I thought he was struggling most of the game. He knows save the bench, the game for the Knicks on the bench. [12:08] That little sucker, Alvarado. In the first half, yeah.

He had really big minutes for them. He played great. And Shem... [12:16] You know, I'm just, I mean, I coached Shem, and I'm just so proud of him. And by the way he plays and how, like, you couldn't keep Shem on the floor. [12:26] Five years ago. [12:27] Three years ago. [12:28] defensively he couldn't guard anybody and that kid has worked his tail off and he he competes defensively and the other thing now is he's always been a great shooter but if he missed a couple he would never keep shooting and now he does that's maturity that's growing up that's going through all the stuff and he's doing that i thought their bitch gave them a huge lift tonight he was he was out there with like four minutes left [12:54] In the Bridges spot.

And then they brought Bridges back in. But I was surprised how late he was in the game. Yeah, so Bridges will play better. He didn't have a great game offensively, but I thought Bridges had a phenomenal game defensively. You know, it's so funny that Bridges gets so much criticism, but he does so many things. And, you know, everyone just equates scoring to if you play well. And we all know there's so many other things you can do. And Bridges does those things every night. [13:20] Yeah. [13:21] Um, [13:22] If I'm Wemby, what am I learning from that game?

[13:25] Our patients... [13:27] You know, to me, Temple... [13:29] I thought he went too quick at times. I think they're going to put him on a post a little bit more, but not much more. The two-man game with him and Fox, [13:39] There's something there. They just didn't get anything out of it. The 45 set, which I think we started it when I was with the Clippers, with Chris Paul, if you remember. That's where the 45 set actually came from. [13:53] They are the best that I've ever seen in it.

[13:57] Explain what the 45 set is. The 45 set is the four and the five. And usually they use a guard way up top, that double flat screen. [14:05] where a guard goes downhill, Wimby Rose, shooter in the backside, shooter in the corner. They run it as well as anybody I've ever seen. And they ran it three or four times early in the game, and it was successful, and they got away from it. So you're going to see that way more in game two on Friday. [14:24] I wonder what they do about Harper.

Cause I thought, I actually thought he was their best player in that game. They took him out with a little over four minutes left when it was close. [14:33] And then they lost the lead. And I didn't really like, you know, any of the offense they had except for that Fox nine-footer that he missed. But I wonder if Harper... [14:42] I wonder if he has reached a point where you can't take him off. [14:45] He just has to finish the games for you because he can create his own shot. [14:49] He can, but the other guards can as well.

I have to say that. I think there's going to be gain for us going to come down between him and Champinny. [14:58] You know, the other guards, because of their defense, their rebounding, their athleticism, you keep them on the floor. But that makes them really small. That's one of the things I kept saying, Bill, I told you this, the Knicks are big. [15:10] They're big. They're big at every spot. I guess Brunson is considered small, but we call him big body Brunson. Hart plays like a five. Ananomi is huge. [15:22] Bridges is long.

[15:24] uh towns is long they're a big basketball team and so even though the spurs guards did way better than i thought they would on the offensive glass i think size matters uh it does when victor's around but it also does because of all the nick players with size and i thought it mattered tonight [15:41] I wonder, what do you think the Knicks strategy was going into that game? Because it felt like they want to turn into a track meet early. [15:48] and kind of discombobulate the Spurs and knock them out or whatever, whether they were in the last game.

[15:53] And then I thought down the stretch, you could see it wore down the spurs and it felt like the Knicks were like... [15:58] gaining strength almost. And do you think that's the strategy or it was just the outcome? Yeah, I do. I think it's funny. I heard people say at halftime, slow it down. I said, don't slow this game down. This is great for the Knicks. The one thing they were doing, they were trying to get up the floor before women could get there. [16:12] They were trying that same thing Oklahoma tried, except for Oklahoma kept losing their ball handlers.

All they had was Shea left. [16:21] But the Knicks, they pass the ball forward. They attack early. They spread the floor. And it also didn't allow Wimby to get into his spot. Wimby loves being in the dunker spot defensively. But when they go in transition early and early attack, you saw Wimby out by the three-point line a lot tonight. San Antonio cannot like that. [16:42] absolutely was part of their game plan. I had a bunch of Knicks fans in my life who were texting me during the game being like, I liked LB until tonight.

Now I hate his guts. I'm tired of this. He's flopping around like he gets every call. It's so funny how you root against the guy for an hour and you're like, I'm out. I hate this guy. Yeah, well, everyone flops around now. It's just so funny. I think it was Castle. They asked him and they were trying to get him to say something about Shea. [17:12] says, everyone flops. It's funny. It's not taught. Players work on it. [17:18] But it's not taught, really. Players just work on it. Hell, I thought Bronson flopped and Carl Anthony Towns flopped every bit as much as Wimby did.

But that's just part of the game. [17:31] I like it. We're getting a lot of animosity. Um, I love that. Yeah. With, [17:36] With the Towns thing, you said that at the top about how Minnesota traded him. [17:41] With that said, I never ever in a million years thought that he had this in him. [17:45] And he's been doing it now for a month, right? The way he played today, there's almost like a cerebralness about – [17:52] What he's doing offensively, he's kind of staying away from the dumb fouls for the most part.

Like some of the stuff, like the quick attacks on Wemby, [18:00] It's exactly what he had to do. Like before Wembe got set, he was just trying to beat him, and he was physical with him. He's playing smart. I just loved how he played. He's playing smart. He's not losing his composure. Those are things that he always would do in the past. He's staying out of foul trouble. He may be their best passer at times. And the biggest thing he's doing that no one talks about is his rebounding. He is a great rebounder, a great rebounder, great offensive rebounder.

[18:30] didn't know [18:31] he can ever do. And the other thing is, and I've said this since we won in 2008, Bill, [18:40] When you hear about teams and they all say it, [18:42] Uh, [18:43] You improve each round. [18:45] And teams that don't go deep never understand that. Players who have never gone deep, they never understand. It's not necessarily individual improvement. [18:53] It's team improvement. [18:55] And the Knicks in the first round, [18:58] May have been, you could say, maybe gettable. [19:01] you know, [19:02] In the second round, [19:04] you know, they got it going at that.

[19:06] After that Atlanta meeting or whatever they had, [19:09] They have come together. Like when you watch them play, there was a time out in this game where you heard Carr-Anthony Towns talking. I saw that. That was unbelievable. That was six weeks ago. [19:21] He wouldn't have said it and no one would have listened. [19:24] You know, [19:25] But that's part of the growth that teams go through. Each round, you get better. You get closer. You trust more. You let go of all the individual crap, you know, all the numbers chasing.

And you just start playing, you know, and you play the right way. Elvarado, think about it. I always love Elvarado in this example. He comes from New Orleans where he played a ton of minutes. And now he played two minutes, five minutes, six minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes. He doesn't care. [19:54] He just wants to help the team win. And you can see that throughout the Knick team. You can see that throughout the Spurs team. These are two teams that have grown each round. And they both have come to this team unity thing.

[20:09] And it's really helped the Knicks because we never thought the Knicks could get there. [20:13] They're there. They are absolutely there. [20:16] I forgot to say that this segment is brought to you by New Era, which makes a bunch of great caps, all kinds of things. So that what you just mentioned about. [20:24] The selflessness. I remember we did a podcast... [20:27] During the 24 finals, we were talking about the Celtics. [20:31] When they were, I think they won game three against Dallas. [20:35] And you were excited about it because you were like, I see it.

They get it. [20:39] They understand what this last level is about. It's not about the stats anymore. It's about [20:44] looking out for each other, just trying to win whatever it takes. You don't care about your minutes. You don't look at the stat sheet. [20:51] It feels like the Knicks have gotten there. [20:53] I thought San Antonio was going to win this series, and maybe they just suck tonight. Maybe they will. [20:59] But the fact that the Knicks were able to carry that three rounds inferior competition to now this stage tonight, and it's the same thing, it gives you hope if you're a Knicks fan, I would say.

Well, I've been asked... [21:12] Because I'm always asked. [21:14] who's going to win the series. [21:16] And today I was golfing. I bet I was asked it 50 times, Bill. And my same answer is, I don't know. [21:22] This one... [21:24] usually you kind of have a, [21:25] This one is too close to call. [21:29] And... [21:30] You know, if you're a Knicks fan, you feel great, obviously. The big thing is if they do lose another game, but they come back with the next game. [21:38] you know, and [21:40] Now game two is the biggest game in the finals for San Antonio.

They can't go down 0-2. [21:46] They just can't. I guess they can. We've seen teams come back. But, you know, it's just so interesting. Yeah, this they're not going to play. It's the guard play. [21:57] That's the key for San Antonio. They did not have great guard play, and their guards have been dominant in the playoffs. They've been dominant. They usually have good guard play by one or two. [22:09] And then maybe two don't, all their guards didn't play well other than Harper. Harper was the only guard. [22:14] They played great in that.

[22:16] I thought one of the things they weren't really 100% doing tonight was just attacking the rim all the time, which is what they learned to do against OKC. [22:25] Just got to go. Don't even think twice. Just go, go, go, go attack. Bigger guys. I bet if you sit back and count the drives that they were bumped off on, [22:36] It was amazing. Even Brunson had one. I think Fox had him beat, but he bumped him off path. And nobody does it as good as anyone. Bridges doesn't. Hart is great.

[22:48] phenomenal at it. Yeah. So they took [22:51] a lot of the hits from San Antonio and kind of veered them outside to the paint. I thought that was really affected by New York. I thought New York's penetration defense was phenomenal. I thought they guarded the ball and took hits, held their ground, didn't back up, didn't flop. [23:08] They held their ground tonight and their size matter again. [23:13] When you played them this season, did you see this in them? [23:16] No. [23:17] No. I did say earlier they're the best team in the East when you go individual.

Right. Most talented team. Yeah. If you just counted the numbers, you thought best team in the East. And going into the playoffs, I did pick them. [23:32] to win the East before the playoffs started. But I just thought they would out-talent people. They're out-teaming people now. [23:40] And when you put that talent together and now the way they're playing, [23:44] They're a really good basketball team and they're hard to beat. [23:47] Yeah, because I remember when this happened with the 08 Celtics. Now, granted, they won way more regular season games.

But then the first two rounds were choppy. [23:55] two seven game series and then it really wasn't until near the end of the detroit series [24:00] And then you could see something shifted. [24:02] Do you remember that? What game was that when it just like [24:05] Just something was different. I thought it was a game... [24:08] In Detroit, after we lost, you remember we lost, our first home game was against the Pistons. Yeah. And I think it was game two. And we went right back in Detroit and won. [24:18] I thought from that point on, we were, we had, you know, been made, you know, I love using that term, like, and, you know, Godfather, we were made finally, like this team is strong.

[24:29] I thought that team played together all the time. But you remember going into playoffs and made that comment. I'm really worried we have not been tested. We hadn't lost two games in a row all year. We hadn't gone through anything and it just felt too easy. [24:42] And that really concerned me. And so those two game seven, Atlanta game seven wasn't much of a game, but that Cleveland game seven, [24:49] Yeah, that kind of made us and didn't turn around and then Detroit defending champs come in and they pop us right away and we have to respond.

[24:58] I thought those are the things. And the Knicks have been going through stuff all year. So they're different. They've gone through all stuff all year. Turmoil, chemistry problems, role problems. Guys were unhappy. They get to the first round. A lot of that is still going on. Atlanta takes it to them. They have that meeting and it all goes away. Since then, [25:21] They've been playing right throughout. [25:22] And it's been amazing to watch. So is that the first recorded meeting in NBA history that actually worked? It actually worked. Yeah.

Because I don't think it was a call of meeting. Like, you know, it just, from what I hear, the meeting just kind of happened. [25:39] It wasn't one of those things like we're going to have a player meeting, which every coach is like, oh, God. Or we have a coach, we want to have a team meeting where every coach says, [25:49] Oh, God. Yeah. I got to tell you, Bill, I've been a player in these meetings. [25:54] And I've been a coach in these meetings and a lot of them go haywire.

I was in San Antonio as a player. [26:02] And some of the, we were down 0-2 to the Houston Rockets. [26:07] right way back in the Western finals. [26:11] And I think it was David Robinson or someone or Moses Malone. I'm going to use him because there's all kinds of stuff in this meeting. The first part of the meeting, Greg Popovich is talking. Now, Bob Hill is our coach. [26:23] And Dennis Rodman, when Pop finishes, he's like, [26:27] Dennis Rodman says, fuck. [26:28] Who's listening to you? [26:30] You're not the coach.

This is the meeting. [26:34] Pop goes back at Dennis [26:36] Then Moses starts talking and Avery Johnson, Moses, I love you, but your time has passed. And we're not we're not going to read your press clippings anymore. Then Avery goes after David Robinson. I mean, the meeting was a disaster. [26:52] It was a disaster. Having said that, we didn't go to Houston and win game three and four. So you just never know. So when you have those meetings... [27:01] Most of the time it's guys screaming at each other. Very rarely does it turn into a very productive group therapy session, like in an Apple TV show or something.

Well, sometimes you have phenomenal meetings. I will say there's been some good ones. [27:15] But there's usually at some point, [27:17] A player who, [27:19] You didn't expect to say something. [27:21] says something that pisses off the entire locker room or another player. Now, those two guys got a beef. [27:29] And it's all falling apart. That's usually what happens. It happens a lot. Yeah. [27:33] So when they were trying to put together, I talked about this a few pods ago, like Wes and Leon trying to put this team together. And the motto is the 04 Pistons.

[27:42] where it's like, we're not going to luck into a top three lottery pick. [27:46] But we can kind of smartly, we can build around Brunson, [27:49] Um, [27:50] he could be like our billups basically. And we could just kind of patch together different guys and, [27:55] We'll have wings that can play defense and Towns will be our big guy. [27:59] Do you see that when you watch them? Do you see the comparison? I mean, they're completely different teams. They're two different teams because that Pistons team, anyone could have a big night.

[28:09] If you remember that where, [28:11] For the most part, Brunson is their go-to guy. [28:14] 31 shots tonight. Yeah, he's the guy. And Detroit played more team ball, more movement. So a different team. Detroit was probably was a way better defensive team. Yeah. I think New York's a better offensive team in some ways. But listen. [28:32] When you look at the two teams, two teams couldn't be built any differently. [28:36] The Spurs have done it basically through the draft. [28:38] Fox is the only guy that you can make a case that they traded for.

They signed some low-budget free agencies that have turned out great for them. But other than that, it's been Fox, right? Where the Knicks... [28:53] I asked my son, Spencer, who on the Knicks team was drafted by the Knicks? They placed. [29:00] There's only one. [29:02] It's... [29:04] Mitchell Robinson, right? That's it. Everybody else they traded for, they signed in free agency. So you got to give Leon and those guys a lot of credit. They got the right pieces. They did. I thought the Villanova thing was smart. [29:19] as much as people want to knock it because it did create a team.

It did create unity and that was good. [29:27] No one and I don't care [29:29] If Leon or anyone, no one thought Brunson would be this good. And I really liked him, you know, because people forget what he did to Phoenix. Oh, yeah. In that series. Like, it wasn't just the Luka show. It was a Luka Brunson show. And he did it to Utah, too, for a couple games. He did at moments. Well, the Utah series, remember, I think Luka misses the game. He does. And he just takes over. So he showed that he could do it.

[29:56] No one thought he could do it full time every night and be this clutch. So give New York credit. They signed him. What I think they did better is once they realized what they had, [30:07] They built around it. And I don't want to take shots at anybody, but I will say this. They are [30:14] A lot of front office guys that can go out and get the stars. [30:19] There's very few of them that can then build a team into a championship team. That's what you have to do.

You can go out and get these names. [30:28] But can you make [30:30] the other moves. You know, you look at Danny Ainge, he's done it a ton. Brad Stevens has done it. [30:38] Sam Preston. [30:40] You know, it took him a while. You think about all the talent that Sam Pressy had, and he finally kind of figured it out. Like, all right, we got the stars. [30:48] All right. Now I got to go get Hartenstein. I got to go get Caruso. I got to go get some of these role players because that's what's going to win the game for us.

San Antonio. [30:58] We don't even know who their role players are yet because they're so young. All their guards are so good. We don't even know who could be the next star. Could be Harper, could be Castle. I mean, there's so many guys. But the next, give them credit, Hart is a role player. That's who he is. He actually knows who he is. Bridges is a role player. That's who he is. He actually knows he is. Robinson's a role player. And then the Carl Anthony Towns trade was humongous. [31:25] And at the time, [31:27] I don't think anyone knew if it was a good trade or not, but it's turned out.

[31:31] to be the game changer for them. [31:33] Yeah, that was one of those, it was really hard to have a hard opinion on that trade. Yeah. You could see it from both sides being a disaster. I remember being like, I understand why they did it. I don't know if I like it. [31:47] I understand the logic. The logic was perfect. One of them was because the way he shoots, to take a big outside of the paint and let Bronson work, [31:57] and then give breath some more space. [31:59] So that absolutely is happening.

It happened tonight. [32:03] And they needed a center because the league barely has any centers. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you talk about the team building part. [32:09] and you just came from Milwaukee, they went the opposite way where, [32:13] They had Giannis and they were like, we... [32:15] we got to get another star for Giannis. And they traded basically all their future stuff for Dame and tried to put them together as, as the combo. [32:23] which I think is the old school model. Do you think like with the way that this new CBA works,

[32:29] And the second apron penalties. It feels like... [32:33] It feels like the depth and having a bunch of guys in that like seven to $15 million range is going to be more important than that second star. Yeah, I think it depends on who the first star is. [32:44] If you have a Shea, if you have a Bronson, you can get away with having a lot of other players. And Williams is better than just a lot of other players who's injured. Yeah, maybe the two guys and then you have a bunch of smaller.

Two and a half. What happened to Milwaukee is they got old quick and their star wasn't. He was the young one. Everyone else got old really quickly. I think if they could redo that trade, they still do it, but they would probably keep Drew. [33:14] heard they didn't think Drew and Dane could play together and what they realized later is no, Dane needed Drew to protect him defensively from everybody else so the thought I actually thought was right, the execution of the rest of the part probably didn't work out. Now, [33:30] Moving forward, all these teams have to be very careful.

Like if you're number one guy is your number one guy. [33:37] But you're number two, three, four, five. You better with the cap and the apron. It's so much harder, Bill. The three the three star thing is gone. Like we know that just contractually you can't do it. The two star thing is still alive. [33:53] Uh, but, [33:55] You can make a case having a superstar, you know, a... [33:59] Shay. [34:00] and four really good players. [34:03] may be better. [34:05] Yeah, because the Celts are in that situation now with Tatum and Brown.

I think Tatum has the [34:10] I think he has the third biggest contract per year next year, and Brown has seventh, so two is top seven. [34:17] I don't know how sustainable that is for the rest of the decade. How do you put a team around that, especially when you're watching – [34:23] A series like this where both teams go nine deep. [34:26] Cornette, who we didn't talk about, [34:29] He came in at one point. I think Cornette's a good backup center, but now it's kind of the point. As soon as Wemby comes out of the game, [34:36] All the players in the other team are like, just you could see the hop in their step that he's gone for four minutes.

[34:42] Yeah, but there's no point in the history. [34:44] Maybe back in the day. [34:47] And I'm being honest. And Shaq a little bit, but [34:51] Uh, [34:52] I mean, listen, when Winnie walks off the floor, I don't care who you are. I think there's high school kids running right when Winnie walks off the floor and they're yelling, drive the ball now. Right. Do it. Because it was it was so obvious. I think they get the nine point lead. [35:08] They sub him out. And it was like the Knicks just attacked the basket immediately.

And so, you know. It was 63-50. [35:18] He goes out. [35:20] And by the time he comes back in, it's 67-61, the Knicks are back in the game. They're back in the game. And... [35:26] Brunson got it going. Brunson got it. You had two things going at the same time. You know what else was going, by the way? I had multiple Knicks fans friends there. [35:37] They said it was like 15% Knicks fans. [35:40] It was more than I thought it could be. I was surprised. That's for game one. San Antonio, people don't sell tickets.

Well, clearly they do. But the Knicks fans have been impressive. They really have been. You gotta, like, [35:54] Joel Embiid makes that ridiculous speech, you know, after they beat the Celtics about, you know, I'll pay for the tickets. And the Knicks, it was almost like the Knicks fans took that personal. What? We're going to buy the whole arena out. I mean, what happened with the Knicks fans in Philadelphia was unbelievable. [36:13] Yeah, that was crazy. You played for them a long time ago. [36:19] Got injured. But you were... [36:23] involved with that team that came the closest they've ever been.

And that was 32 years ago. [36:28] Yeah. [36:29] But, [36:30] I should have been active. [36:32] Well, yeah, you told that story on another pod that we did about how they should have activated you for the last two rounds. Yeah. Now this is... [36:40] 53 years. I've been saying, I think this is the biggest thing. [36:45] title that anybody can have right now, unless maybe the Bills, but the problem is the Knicks have [36:51] Six generations of fans and they're the biggest city. It's not even close. I know that sounds funny because we're comparing football and basketball.

It's like the Cubs winning. [37:02] It really is in a lot of ways. If the Knicks can win this, they've been through, first of all, they went through a lot of bad basketball. It's not like they've been knocking on the door. 20 years of it, yeah. I mean, they went through a lot of bad basketball. And then they kind of built this team, Leon. You got to just give them all the credit in the world. Him and Wes, they put this team together piece by piece. [37:27] And now they're in it and they're going to be in it for a long time.

This is not a fluke. This team's going to be good. They're going to be good for a long time. Contractually, they're set up really well overall. [37:36] Um, so yeah, um, [37:39] I can't think of another team with size of City and haven't won it. [37:46] that this would be any bigger. This is as big as it is. This century, Red Sox and Cubs were the two big ones. Right. That's exactly right. The Red Sox and the Cubs were the two that they had to remove. [37:59] and then they got him.

So now it's the Knicks. [38:03] Well, we talked about the chess match of the series. So... [38:07] The Knicks come out and do two things maybe San Antonio wasn't expecting. Having Towns guard... [38:12] Wemby and just playing super fast and seeing if they could discombobulate them. [38:16] I think they knew that. I think San Antonio. You think they're ready for that? Yeah. [38:21] Alright, so now we go to game two in San Antonio. It's like, [38:25] Okay, they're going to have Wemby. Do you zag now if you're the Knicks? I'm like, no, actually, I'm not going to have Towns on Wemby this game.

[38:33] I'm going to put OG on them right away. I'm going to do this. No, no. Sometimes you overthink things. Yeah. That's in their back pocket. [38:41] They still have that. [38:42] Um, I, I, if Towns had gotten a quick file, I guarantee you they would have switched and then they'll be on them right away. [38:49] They didn't have to do it. [38:50] All right. That was one. Two, I would be very surprised to see Wendy guarding Carl Anthony Towns. I just think it puts Wendy out of help. [39:03] And without the help, [39:05] I think it really hurts San Antonio.

It also takes me away from the glass. [39:12] And so even though our heart will have free run to the glass, you still got a 7-6 alien standing there just swiping every rebound. [39:22] So I think those are the two biggest changes that you'll see. [39:26] I had two mailbag questions for you quickly. [39:29] First one is from Jeremy in Portland. Is the NBA experiencing the greatest parody era ever? [39:35] in the history of the league. This year will be eight champions in eight years. [39:39] Half the league will have made the finals in the last 10 years.

[39:42] Do you think this is... [39:44] A fluke, COVID's part of that, or do you think this is just what the league is now? [39:48] I think this is what the league, I think this is what collective bargaining and what they wanted. You know, it doesn't allow the big markets to just outspend like the Dodgers, you know. Yeah. It doesn't allow for that. Now it's going to come down to, in my opinion, GMs that know how to build real teams. [40:06] I really do. I think, you know, I, [40:09] Coaches get fired all the time, right?

I think this is the era of GMs, you better do your job. [40:17] You all got the same type of money. You got a draft right. [40:21] You have to trade right. And more importantly, you have to sign right. I think this is also the era that most stars stay home. [40:29] You're not going to see a whole bunch of movement anymore. It's not going to be a bunch of guys just leaving their team. I think you'll see more of the stars staying at home. Number one, they can make more money.

And number two, teams can build around them. So it's going to come down to, yeah, we know you can get us Kevin Durant. [40:44] Well, we know you can get James Harden, but how do you build around that? [40:49] How do you put enough pieces around that? And so I think that's going to be the biggest change. Now, I will say this. [40:57] Mid-season, Bill. [41:00] Everyone said they're the dynasty. [41:02] And it's in Oklahoma. [41:04] And we've been proven once again. Right. There are no daddies. There are no daddies.

Winning is, people, when I hear... [41:12] People talk about, well, they've just got to win the title. [41:15] People have no idea how hard it is to win. [41:18] Everything has to go right for you. You got to get lucky at times. You got to stay healthy. You got to make big shots. Someone you don't know on your team has to make and they all have to get along and buy in. It just takes it takes so much to win. And that's what I mean by you better build the right guys on that team.

And it's got to be one through 15. [41:42] And I think that's the biggest difference. [41:45] Can you talk about how different it is now with all the two-way guys? [41:50] And having a bigger roster, how do you manage that? [41:53] I think that's hurt in some ways. I think the smart teams... [41:58] San Antonio, give a great example. Okay, yeah, they still have all their two-way guys, but they thought it was smart enough. [42:07] to get some vets, some older vets, [42:09] on their team, Cornette and Harrison Barnes. Oh, Lenny.

[42:14] Olenek, the, like, [42:16] that's a smart move. Now those could be two ways. [42:19] And I think a lot of the teams wouldn't sign those guys, Bill. And those are the teams that aren't winning. I'm telling you, you need a couple of those guys at the back of your bench. I always thought in Boston, we had the stars and then we had the older guys and it kind of boxed in the young guys. They had nowhere to go but to listen. You know, and I think that's really important on teams.

So but it's harder now. You have these two way guys. [42:49] It's what it's doing. I do like it. [42:53] But if you are one of those teams that have a chance to win, you may have to give up one of those two ways to sign a veteran. [43:00] on your team. A good veteran. Not a guy that just wants to talk and can't play, can't do anything. These guys are important. And all the teams have them. All the good teams do. Right. That's how guys like Pat Connaughton... [43:13] Olenek, these guys end up hanging, Joe Ingles, these guys end up hanging around for two extra years because they're not going to be [43:20] Talking to the teammates.

[43:21] one, two, and three about, oh, I should be playing. Yeah. I don't know why I'm not in. Think about what Charlotte did. Charlotte has had a chemistry, culture problem, [43:31] They brought in Pat forever. Right? Yeah. You remember they cut back out of him for one day and went back and re-signed him because they knew he's not going to play [43:42] But he's good. Now that doesn't last. That probably won't even last next year. They'll probably have to go get someone else. But those type of guys are invaluable. Coaches in the old days, you know, when I first started coaching, you would always put someone at the end of your bench that you knew had your back.

[43:58] I remember Monty Williams when I was in Orlando. I just assigned Monty, you know, middle or late to his career. But I knew Monty was going to be loyal. [44:06] That's what teams coaches did that all the time. Not as much anymore. You actually need guys that are just great team guys now. [44:14] Um, [44:16] I got a lot of emails wondering if the Chet Holmgren... [44:19] series against Wemby had parallels to Ben Simmons and the infamous Atlanta Hawks series that you coached. No, no, no. Completely different. You think Chet's fine?

Okay. I just want to make sure. He did not want to look at the rim anymore in game seven. I was getting flashbacks. Yeah, well, first of all, he didn't get it a lot either. You're right. You're right. He was out. He just was out playing. It was clear. This is why I like Wemby. It was so funny. I love Chet too, [44:49] reason. [44:50] He takes Chet personal. Chet's the greatest guy. And so is Wimby. But [44:57] You know, women will never, he can't stand them. [44:59] Wendy sees him.

[45:01] And he goes right after him. And it's so obvious. Well, you had, that was Zach Randolph and Blake Griffin, remember? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Same thing. Same thing. Zach Randolph, for some reason, hated Blake Griffin. And every time he saw him, he just wanted to go at him. [45:17] Yeah, and it's so interesting because – [45:19] All they did, somebody compared them. [45:22] Yeah. [45:23] And for whatever reason, Wendy has Michael Jordan. That's what I call his Michael Jordan guys. Like, [45:30] You know, if you compare anything to Michael... [45:33] You had to deal with Michael, and that's what it is.

But listen, Chet's still one of the top four or five best defenders at his size in the league. He's still an all-defensive guy. He's going to be a better offensive team player. Oklahoma had two guys out in this series, and they should not overreact, nor will they, unless they got a great deal. [45:55] That was the last question I had from you, from Eli in Chicago, talking about the Czech Game 7. And he said, can you imagine what your podcast would have been like after Scottie Pippen's migraine game in the 90s?

[46:07] Eastern Conference Finals when the Bulls lost to the bad boys, you would have had topics like, can MJ win without a real number two? Who can they get for Pippen? Can Phil find five guys to trust? And I do wonder, like, this culture we're in now, [46:21] You know, when we were... [46:22] when you were in the league in the beginning, like magic sucked in the 84 finals, right? Yeah. Pippen had the migraine game. Like people would, worthy had the 84 finals when he threw the pass to Henderson for the steal.

And, [46:34] Teams would lose and they would just move on. Isaiah. Turns the ball over. The game's over. Turns the ball over and flips the series. You know, when we were in with the Clippers, Chris Paul had [46:45] Two of the worst minutes in the history of the game, right? Against Oklahoma City, yeah. Yeah, that game's over with. You know, can you imagine... [46:53] If there was a podcast during those times, I mean, that's all we would talk about. And all those players, for the most part, recovered and had great careers.

You know, Ben's right. [47:03] Would be the exception to the rule. Yeah, because this was... [47:08] You only have one champion every year. You have 30 teams. There's going to be some ups and downs. [47:14] Sometimes it's not going to be your year. You're going to have bad luck. You're going to have Jayla Williams get hurt. You're going to have Chick get psyched out in a series. [47:20] It's a tough one, though, because they are. Most times, it's not going to be a year. [47:24] Like if you really thought about it, like if championship is the only thing, then most of the time it's not going to be your year.

And a lot of times you go into the season knowing if that's the bar. [47:35] This is not our year. Like, if you're honest. Now, when you have a shot at it, [47:40] then you go after it. I've been fortunate. I've had some teams that, you know, you can make a case, had a chance, maybe not when you look back on them, but at least we were trying to get it. But even that, you know, I coached 20, what, five years. [47:55] What... [47:56] Five times, six times, seven times. You know, it's not that many chances that you get unless...

[48:02] You're on one of those teams that you win young and everybody stays and you get a chance to coach a star over and over and over again. Phil Jackson has had that. Steve Kerr's had that. Pop has done it. [48:15] Really in three iterations, really two. I mean, because you got to combine the David Robinson, Tim Duncan. [48:22] but then Ginobili and Jim Duncan they're all with Duncan though you can make a case they all were Duncan related [48:30] And now... [48:31] You know, this is where I got love pop, right?

[48:34] this is where it bothers me the most. That bothers me because I love Mitch. Is that [48:43] Pop probably was thinking about retirement. [48:46] Right. And then he's like, oh, my gosh. [48:48] I got this guy. I hit the jackpot. Yeah. I hit the jackpot again. And then it kind of gets taken away from him. [48:56] That's really sad to me. For whatever reason, I don't know why it's sad to me. [49:00] But it's really sad to me. [49:03] Well, you mentioned Steve Kerr. [49:05] and how lucky you are to be able to get to coach somebody for most of their career, their entire career.

[49:12] He's just never leaving Steph. [49:14] It's become clear. I think he might just move in the steps... [49:17] Steph's guest room or something. He never wants to leave that guy. [49:20] Listen, but you think about the multiple winning guys. [49:24] Michael, stone-blooded killer. [49:27] great guy, kind of great blue guy team-wise in a tough way. Tim Duncan, come on. You can't have [49:36] like a better guy, a better leader of a team. And Steph, you can't have a better leader. You know, [49:44] As much as I love LeBron, Katie, and all these guys.

[49:48] that part of it they really did not have. Or I don't know if they didn't have it. But Steph is just... [49:56] He's so coachable. [49:58] All those guys are coachable. Michael Jordan is crazy and tough as he was. [50:03] The one thing you always heard about him, he respects coaching. [50:07] Like he really did. I think it came from Dean. I think Dean kind of embedded that in him. Tim Duncan, [50:15] Clearly did. [50:17] Um, and, uh, [50:18] Steph clearly does. [50:20] And it's easy to build around [50:23] Guys like that, you know.

And none of those teams have you ever heard Tim Duncan. [50:28] Have you ever heard Tim Duncan say, this is my team? Right. Have you ever heard Steph say, [50:34] This is my team. Think about Steph winning and got KD. He care less. [50:40] You never heard him say, I'm on my team. This is my team, you know. [50:44] And in... [50:46] Michael didn't have to say it, but I do think that kind of stuff matters. [50:52] Well, you talk about Michael and Curry and Duncan, and then I think Wemby and Brunson are both like this too, which is ironic.

They're playing the finals, but they're like... [51:00] I'm here. I'm with you guys to the bitter end. [51:03] Build around me. [51:04] I'll be the leader. I'm going to stick up for everybody else, but I'm not going to leverage anything. I'm not going to go to the papers. And I'm just... [51:11] I trust you to build the right team around. Never going to hear them whispers, you know, rumors... [51:17] They're just not going to do that. And that's part of what I mean about character. I mean, that's so important on teams, especially winning teams.

[51:25] All right, Doc Rivers. Well, I'm going to make you come back at least one more time during the finals. How's our guy Larry David doing? Is he all right? He's going to make it through game one. He's actually going to the garden, which I'm shocked by, but he's going to do it. But we do know.