A Crazy NBA Month With Zach Lowe, Plus Taylor Sheridan on Building a TV Empire and the Problems With Hollywood

[00:00]. [00:02] Thank you. [00:06] This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by PayPal. [00:09] You know a clutch move when you see one? A no-look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steal? Well, imagine if your wallet [00:15] could pull off moves like that. [00:18] That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now, you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony, Allbirds, and Viator. [00:25] Save offers before you check out. [00:27] earn unlimited rewards. Plus you can add those rewards on top of credit card points, [00:32] Now that. [00:33] is clutch.

Download the PayPal app today. [00:35] Save those offers. [00:37] Start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See com slash rewards terms, credit card points subject to issuers, [00:46] terms, and conditions. [01:14] Bill Simmons Podcast live on Netflix here on Sunday. [01:18] We have Zach Lowe right now. He's in a great mood. We have Taylor Sheridan, creator of Yellowstone, and a bunch of awesome shows coming in the second half. [01:27] of the pod. Zach is coming off [01:30] an incredible victorious day in Philadelphia where he celebrated [01:34] a World Cup win with a bunch of tall Croatians.

Very tall. I was worried you were going to get crushed in a group hug at some bar last night. But you made it. You're here. I made it home. I may have gotten crushed. There may have been a lot of group hugs. Croatians know how to party. And we move on to the round of 32. We're going to be underdogs. That's fine. Like, look, I'm glad if this is it. [01:56] I got to see Luka Modric summon one last great game. [02:01] start to finish, and that was amazing. [02:04] And you're 2-0 in the World Cup this year in person.

Yeah, that's been pointed out to be by multiple people associated with the Croatian football team. Now you have to go to every game now. I might need to go to Toronto. It's being pushed on me that I might need to. And I'm just putting it out there. Mets play Blue Jays the day before in Toronto. I could do a double. Just skip NBA free agency altogether and just go to be a sports fan. [02:27] We're going to try to rip through NBA stuff in 75 minutes, which includes Jalen Brown, [02:32] I have not given any take yet on the LaMelo trades in Minnesota.

You did a whole podcast about it. [02:38] Um, we're going to talk Charlotte Phoenix a little bit. We're going to talk about what happened to LeBron and we're going to talk about craziest prediction for the week. You have podcasts coming at least. [02:47] tomorrow and probably Wednesday, maybe two, maybe three. I'm going to have at least one more on Thursday. So that is the schedule. Jalen Brown. [02:55] Not traded yet. [02:57] Um, [02:58] information and misinformation flying around [03:01] Um, [03:03] I don't know if he has lost trade value because teams know they want to trade him or because of his contract or whatever.

I thought it would be resolved a little bit quicker. He was in France recently. [03:13] A little pissy about some advanced metrics tweets. [03:17] Got mad at Bobby Marks for passing along something he heard from a front office. [03:21] He's been doing panels. The word on the street on Jalen in France. [03:27] And I know multiple people who were either in his vicinity or whatever is that he, [03:31] was acting like he's done in Boston and that this is it. And I don't think he's very happy with this. Do you think Boston mishandled this in any way?

First of all, you have sources on the ground across France, like at whatever region, the Bordeaux region. Oh, it was Can. Okay, so you have sources on the ground. He was on sports panels there. I don't think he's... [03:53] really too happy about the last couple of weeks. What would the mishandling have been? [03:57] Tell me what the mishandling would be because they won a – let's not – let's lead with the thing. They won the championship with Jalen Brown and Jason Tateau. I'm just talking about this offseason mishandling. So from literally final buzzer of game seven until right now.

[04:12] What is the case that Boston has missed? Is it not trading him already? [04:17] Is it even getting into the honest bidding to begin with? Because you can't not have that get out. [04:22] And even it's only and once it gets out that you're interested in Giannis, who is better than Jalen Brown, older but better. [04:29] And addresses it. OK, fine. We can litigate that if you want. Once that gets out, there is no other realistic path for this to happen. Like you don't it doesn't have to be reported anymore that the Celtics are offering jail.

And there's no other offer. That's it. It has to be jail. And Brown is just math. And so you let everyone else put the logic together. So what should they should they? I think your only alternative is you just answered your own question. OK, just trade him right away or don't or don't get involved with the honest. Those are the two things. [04:58] I think the Celtics have done a great job this decade. I rarely disagreed with anything they've done. [05:05] They get into this Giannis thing and they make a real offer for him, right?

And this is, I think, two weeks before he gets traded. [05:13] They're anticipating that because of past dealings with Milwaukee and because of how the league works, [05:19] that [05:21] "This won't get out, this is gonna stay between us." Well, there's a couple different things that happen. - That's a terrible assumption. [05:28] Well, okay. [05:29] But new owner, we have Jimmy Haslam in there now. He wasn't really in there. Like when the Drew Holiday stuff was happening a couple of years ago, he wasn't in there yet. [05:38] You also have Milwaukee not knowing whether they wanted to keep Jalen Brown or not.

So obviously they're going to be stealth canvassing his value in a couple of different places. [05:46] And that's how this shit gets out. It's the third team that always spoils this because they're delighted to tell people, oh my God, they checked with us and whatever. So I think the mistake the Celtics made [05:56] If you're gonna do this, you're gonna go down the road and actually put Jalen on the table, which they did. And they only made one offer, which I've said multiple times, the offer for the Jalen, the picks.

Anything else was a lie. Hugo was never on the table. They never beeped up their offer the last week and nothing. [06:11] But if you're going to do this, I think you just have to put Jalen on the block at that point. Because once he's out there, you have to anticipate how he's going to react to it. [06:21] This guy already feels like he's the Jan Brady of the Brady Bunch on this team, right? He already feels like he's the little brother. He already feels like it's Tatum's team, not his.

A lot of the stuff that he was saying... [06:33] during and after the season, even the quote about he was the most proud of the season [06:37] versus any other season. I actually understand his point on that, even though I don't think he should have said it that way. [06:42] Everyone counted them out. [06:43] Everyone, the over-under was 41 and a half. He was the only reliable scorer and offensive weapon on the team. They went 56 and 23 the last 79 games. They were second in offensive rating. [06:55] And I think he feels disrespected.

So you put him in one trade, [06:59] Now you have to trade them. And now that there's blood in the water and teams know they have to trade them, you're going to get shittier offers. So I would have just done it all at once. So- [07:09] Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what you think they should have done. Because I thought what you were going to say when you started, what I thought you were going to say was, [07:17] Once you put him in for Giannis, you then just have to make the honest trade, which means swallow Shireman and Gonzalez or whatever it is.

But you're not saying that you just think like you're saying, just open it up and do it immediately. But haven't they opened it up? Isn't that what's happening right now? They did it now, but they did it now that he's upset about how the process planned out. And now that teams know they have to trade him. [07:40] It's a little different than being like, hey, we're pursuing Giannis with Jalen, but we're also open for offers right now. And I just feel like it's a better market if teams feel like, oh, shit, Jalen's going to be on the table.

I'm competing against the possibility that he's going to get traded to Milwaukee for Giannis. [07:56] Now I don't know who they're competing with. Like, you know, and... [08:00] I also feel like having actually watched the Celtic games last year, unlike most of the people who are online just doing analytics and on-off shit and stuff like that. As you know, and I've said this many times, I really value the reliability of a durable star who over and over again has to carry this burden that night after night, he's got to be the best player.

He's got to match against the other team's best player. And it's like, oh, the on-off was not great when he was there. Well, the Celtics had an awesome bench, right? [08:30] of the team. When their bench came in, their bench was better than just about every other bench in the league. And that's going to skew those stats a little bit. [08:36] Well, you can't capture and go back and look at his game log going against Detroit. [08:42] San Antonio, OKC, pick one of the best teams, the Knicks, pick one of the best teams in the league last year.

[08:48] He was their only guy that I knew was going to show up in the game. I didn't know if Derek White, Peyton Pritchard's. [08:53] You know, as good as he is, he's trick or treat. Sometimes he just doesn't have it. [08:57] All these bench guys, Kata, it was basically just Jalen. So I think weirdly he's become underrated and I don't really understand it. [09:05] I mean, a lot of it has to do – my brain just can't do the analytics thing. I can't do it. I don't want to do it.

So let's just park that over here. A lot of it is just the contract, right? And I think, like, this is the difference between – this ties into why the Hornets – [09:23] traded LaMelo ball now when he's on his second contract and not when they've potentially signed him to the third one that can get much bigger. I don't think it would get much bigger in LaMelo's case, but with Jalen, because he made all NBA and they won the championship and all that. It's now at a point where it's like, [09:38] 60, 65, like these are just hard deals to trade for someone who's not one of the, [09:45] I don't want to get into where to rank him, but he's not a top five player in like a no brainer with a bullet top five.

But he's one of the top 15. He sure is. And yeah, I mean, he was last year. I we would have to sit down and do it. But he was in my top 15 on the last ringer 100. We did coming off last season. [10:03] It's a hard trade to make. And if you don't get Giannis, now you're staring at, [10:11] Is there a deal out there? [10:13] that we can sell our fan base and we can sell the current players on the team that like, Hey, wait, we traded him for what?

Like that, does that not make us worse this season? Like, yo, it's cool that we cleaned up the cap sheet and got a couple of picks, but like, what's the headliner that we got that helps us last season. So you're throwing away a second season in a row, basically a chance to contend after you've won the 24 title. I, [10:35] I just feel like, [10:37] They must have known that we, listen, we, you and I have both talked to a million people about Tatum and, and Jalen and do they get along?

Do they not get along? Is it, [10:47] Are they good work relationship but not friends? You could go into it a million different ways. [10:53] It's the people around them. [10:55] that always cause the problems, I think for the most part. I'm sure those two guys are fine together, but the circles around the people are the ones that start half the shit. I do think it's notable... [11:05] that Jalen didn't really say a lot about Tatum during the season. [11:09] It was not about that. You never heard like, I can't wait to get my brother back.

There was none of that stuff. [11:14] And then after the season, and especially the last three weeks, [11:19] Where's Tatum? [11:22] He hasn't said anything. [11:24] He hasn't said anything this offseason. Jalen said at one point Tatum was coming on his his twitch or whatever. He hasn't come on. [11:31] How about the last couple weeks about [11:33] The guy who could actually squash this is the alleged leader of the team, the franchise, Tatum. [11:39] who could come in and say, I don't want them to trade Jalen. We won the title together two years ago.

[11:44] I can't control the front office. [11:46] but I want to try to win more titles with them, or that's my guy, nothing. It's been dead silence, which makes me think that the team has felt [11:53] at some point either during the season or right after, that this is a wrap and that Jalen just wants his own team. And Tatum probably wants him to have his own team. And that's probably the answer, right? [12:04] I mean, having your own team being like, have we not reached a point where – [12:10] I guess there's just no, what is the star duo?

[12:14] This is a great question for you. That has gotten the closest to being actual equal peers. Like not 1A, 1B, but like 1A, 1A. Is it Shaq and Kobe? [12:25] Like what's the one that's that transformed from Pippen Jordan to some, cause I look at these guys and I'm like, [12:32] Why can't they both average 27 points a game? Like, why does it like it's, is that not on the table? Does it have to be someone's team? I, someone's always going to be considered better, right? A better all around player, whatever.

But in terms of whose team it is, who controls the ball, [12:47] Like, I don't know when Tatum came back last year, obviously he's easing into it, but I didn't feel like there was any sort of, [12:53] Oh, wow. Things have changed so dramatically for Jalen Brown. You felt that in the playoffs, though. In some games, you did. The pace slowed, and it just felt a little more tainted thing. To answer your question... [13:04] I honestly have to go back to the 60s with Eldred and Jerry, I think. I think that's the last time where it's like, I don't even know who's better between these two.

And Shaq and Kobe were there a little bit. [13:13] But Shaq always had that trump card of like in a playoff series, if there wasn't a team that could guard Shaq. [13:19] He just ran amok. I mean, his three final stats were at a whole other level than Kobe. I mean, Steph Durant, but that team just existed on a plane of its own. That's a good one, though, because I think Steph is a better guy all time than Durant. But I do feel like Durant was the best guy on those two teams.

Now, part of it was because Steph took a real step back and really let Durant kind of... [13:44] be more of the guy on those teams, but that's a good one, though. And by the way, how long did those guys last together? Three years. And I think [13:52] I think that's a good parallel to this because I think the reason I'm always going to think this and Durant, no matter how many panels he goes on with Rich Klyman in different countries talking about the future of sports and entertainment and business, I'm always going to feel this way.

[14:05] I think he thought after he went head tight with LeBron and beat him in the 2017 title, [14:11] that he was going to get his flowers and his just due as one of the great guys, not only this century, but maybe the best guy in the league. [14:19] And it didn't happen. And it was like, no, you joined Steph's team. That's why you won. [14:23] And I think it got to the point where he's like, I can't win here. [14:27] I have to leave. [14:29] I wonder if Jalen's at that point a little bit too, where he's like, we won a title.

I'm finals MVP, I'm conference finals MVP. I carried our team last year. [14:38] And now the moment Tatum gets back, they're like, thanks, Jalen. We're going to trade you for Giannis now. [14:42] And I think he wants to leave. I don't think he feels like he was respected in the right way. Now, there's a million things you and I don't know about. Is there behind-the-scenes stuff? [14:54] Are there signals that he sent? Did Jalen tell him, go explore a deal for us? [14:58] But the reality is he's 29 years old.

He had his best season ever last year. [15:03] He's played 2,600 minutes in 10 years, 26,000 minutes in 10 years, almost 5,000 playoff minutes. [15:09] The guy's really fucking good. [15:11] Even if you're going like, he's 142 playoff games. I think he's 20 a game in the playoffs. [15:19] And if you're going like 125 games and up, it's a list of like 15 guys and all of them are awesome. [15:26] And I just can't believe some of the trades that I think people seem to think what he's worth. It's like, [15:31] Portland won't give up Donovan Klingin.

They won't. [15:35] For Jalen Brown, that's going to be a deal breaker for you? Like, [15:38] So I've never seen anything like this and I don't know how it plays out. I think it's more likely he ends up coming back to the team. [15:45] Thank you. [15:46] Um, [15:48] I mean, someone has to play center for the Blazers, right? [15:50] If they trade for Jill and Rowan, you need to have a functional center on your team. Let me make a couple of parallels. And I don't think any of these are good parallels.

[16:00] Um, people just today, um, [16:03] when talking about the challenge of trading a player, [16:06] making as much money as Jalen Brown, who's a very good player, but again, not a, he's a, he's on the MVP ballot every year kind of player. [16:14] Um, Anthony Davis was thrown out. Trae Young was thrown out. I rejected both of those out of hand. I'm like, he's younger than Anthony Davis, a million times more durable. He's much bigger than Trae Young and he's a two way player and he's in his prime. I reject them.

The best one I heard was Carl Anthony Towns. [16:30] who the wolves felt like, [16:33] We have we were like this contract is really hard to move. And we're in a financial prison with the apron and all the other guys we have. [16:41] um this is the most palatable deal we have on paper it's like really not that sexy it's julius randall di vincenzo and one first round pick um it's it's gonna land like a little bit of a bomb with our fans and it could go badly and it has gone badly but they felt like they kind of had to do it and it's the best one they could do and i thought that was a very good parallel to this situation just in terms of [17:05] where the player is or was in the hierarchy.

I think Jalen's last season was better than any season Towns has had start to finish. But just generally where they were. But here's the difference. Could Towns have ever gone 56 and 26 with the two through 15 that Jalen had last year? No, I don't think so. No, I don't think so. I just think Jalen should get more credit for the season last year. And I don't understand. Like he was 29 a game, played all the time. And he's a ball handler. It's just weird to see him being like, I don't know if he's, how good is he?

I don't know about that contract. [17:35] He's one of the 15 best guys in the league, and all of those guys have max contracts. [17:40] So why wouldn't he have a max cut? What's he going to be playing for 35 million a year? [17:44] I get it. I get it. And it's going to be... [17:48] That's why all those parallels to me are either wildly wrong or slightly imperfect like the towns one. But yeah, I think the Celtics are going to have a choice. [17:57] A very difficult choice unless something changes between now and whenever.

[18:02] Between... [18:04] Taking an offer for Jalen Brown that is going to be, let's say, not super well received by the fan base. Maybe not. I'm not saying it's going to be bashed or it's going to be poorly received, but it's not going to be like the bonanza. [18:16] package that you would expect trading a player of this caliber. [18:19] Or- [18:20] trying like hell to put the toothpaste back in the tube and just say, Hey, you know what? We're going to figure it out. You guys have played all well together for many, many years.

Missoula. [18:28] I mean, this is like this is why Missoula behind the scenes is one of the most respected, beloved coaches. [18:34] Like this is a guy that [18:36] during the 2024 Olympics, when Tatum, his playing time was getting yanked around and he wasn't put, like, [18:42] Zul flew to France to make sure he was like, this is a guy who has been attuned with those dudes the whole time. I'm sure he's talking to Jalen all the time. [18:50] And if anybody could just get those two dudes in a room, [18:53] And just be like, look, man, let's work this out.

Like, we still have it. We can still be the best team in the East. [18:59] Forget about all the shit that happened in the past. The problem is, I don't know if Jalen is just [19:03] reach the point of no return. Because the difference here is that they've won the title. [19:07] So it can't be one of those things like, I don't have a ring yet. [19:11] He already has the ring. He already has the respect from last year. Now he wants the respect from the team in the city. And I think deep down, he probably knows, like, [19:19] That's going to be always going to be Tatum's town and not mine.

That's just the way it is. Can I throw a what if at you? [19:25] What does this look like if... [19:28] Tatum never gets hurt, but they lose to New York anyway in the second round the year that he got hurt. [19:34] And like, how does the next calendar year play out? Because like, [19:39] It's still quote-unquote Tatum's team more than Jalen's team. [19:44] but it's, they're both still healthy and play. Like I just would be interested to see how that plays out because Tatum's injury is what has changed this dynamic.

I mean, that's obvious, but I, I just don't like, do we end up in this same place anyway? Yeah. [19:58] Or... [20:00] Or not. I don't know the answer to that. [20:02] Well, if we were one of Jalen Brown's, every, every NBA star has flunkies around them, right? Who's just like, you're great. Let's go to dinner. [20:09] Oh, the checks there, you better pay. [20:12] If we were two of J. LeBron's frunkies, [20:15] Wouldn't we be like, why, why are you the one being traded? Why wouldn't Tatum be traded? He's coming off a major injury.

His contract's as big as yours. You just carried the team to 56. Like you're just planning that stuff in his head constantly, right? I mean, I would. Why you? Why not Tatum? Why just you? I would like, I feel like I would be a more valuable member of a friend group than that. I would be a more reasonable member of the friend group. But I did. This is why I asked you devil's advocate two weeks ago or last week, [20:45] we said this, [20:46] I said, if I'm Jalen Brown, I'm looking around being like, why is it just assumed that if we have to break up, I'm the one that goes?

Like, this guy just is coming off an Achilles injury. Now, I say that. [20:56] I think Jason Tatum is a better all around basketball player than Jalen Brown. I think that's largely that's been proven out. So I get why if the Celtics are making a choice, it is Tatum. [21:06] But if I also get Jalen Brown being like, what else do I have to do? Like, what else do you need me to do? [21:12] to be of worth of, of, of, he's there. He's, he's there right now. He's like, we, you guys were going to tank last season.

[21:21] We were building our way to a top three seed, and you traded Zimons for the corpse of Vucevic to save more money. [21:27] And then you, you threw JT back in there. You played him too many minutes and he couldn't even play in game seven. Like, [21:32] There's no blood on my hands for anything that happened last season. When you talked about what [21:37] what trade would the SouthEx fan base accept? [21:42] An example of one they wouldn't if it was Zach Levine's expiring in a boatload of King's picks.

[21:47] Like three first, two swaps, whatever. That's not flying. [21:51] Same for Brooklyn. If it was Porter's expiring and a bunch of [21:55] Brooklyn pick swaps, that's not flying either. [22:00] New Orleans, which I think maybe you would have said a month ago, Murphy with Zion, and [22:05] and maybe even a pick. [22:08] I think that price has dropped now, and I think Poole has to be in it as an expiring. I think that's Murphy and Poole and maybe two firsts, and I don't even know if New Orleans says yes to that.

[22:17] Because New Orleans is like, well, what are we going to do? We're not going to win the title with Jalen. You don't think New Orleans would say yes to Trey Murphy, Jordan Poole, who is, Jordan Poole is just $34 million of expiring money. [22:31] And two unprotected picks, which seems like a pretty fair trade. [22:35] No one in the league seems to know if New Orleans is like open for business. If they're just like if they're out for the holiday weekend already like with anyone there. Well, here's the Portland trade, too.

So these last three are the ones that I was centered on that New Orleans one. [22:52] For Portland, I think Drew has to be in the trade. I don't want Jeremy Grant. I can't put it. Jeremy Grant's contract for two years can't be in that trade. It's the same contract as Drew Holiday. It's the exact same contract, basically. I'd much rather have Drew Holiday. [23:05] Who's already been in Boston. I don't disagree with you, but I think Jeremy Grant's availability has been an issue. He actually shot it pretty well last year.

I don't think he's just sort of like dead money by any means. Well, how about this? Drew Howday, Kamara, and Picks. [23:20] For Jalen. [23:22] That's a trade I can talk myself into from a basketball standpoint. How many picks? Three really good guards. I don't know. [23:29] Look, I mean, that's... How many picks is Kamara worth? At least two? Two and a half? But that's the kind of trade where you are going to be met with the talk radio... [23:40] or whatever backlash of like, [23:42] We just traded a finals MVP.

[23:45] For who's the headliner? The 36, 37-year-old guard who we already had on the team once, and he's fine. He's good. And, like, Tamani who? Yeah, Tamani what? Like, the Boston casual fans have no idea who that is. And, like, okay, some picks? Like, that's what we got for Jalen Brown? And I don't think you're off base pitching that as, like, the structure of a trade. [24:08] That makes some sense for both teams. I don't know if Portland loves the Abdiah, Jalen Brown fit personally. [24:15] I'll tell you this. It would be a bitch to play against.

[24:18] A lot of downhill force. Whoa. [24:21] This is the trade. [24:24] We've been texting about this this week. [24:26] Um, and there's a lot of, a lot of smoke, a lot of smoke. [24:30] billowing around Denver in general. [24:32] Some I believe, some I don't believe. [24:36] Murray and Cam Johnson. [24:39] for Jalen and Hauser. [24:41] which would save Denver $10 million a share. [24:45] The Celtics could take Cam Johnson in their trade exception. [24:48] Murray is 50 million this year, 54 and 57. [24:52] So he's about eight million behind Jalen in each of those years.

But same amount of years. [24:57] Same amount of years, but I'm shaving off seven, eight million. [25:01] Um, I'm adding Cam Johnson who I can either keep or spin in a trade. [25:06] And I am getting somebody who I still think is one of the best 25 players in the league back for Jalen. [25:12] Um, yeah, [25:13] And I think I'm on Boston. I'm signing up for that trade. [25:17] from Denver? [25:19] I'm at least having a six-hour meeting, and it's a reconstruction of – [25:24] of a team because you're going to remove the Murray-Yokic pick and roll.

But you could run a lot of that offense through Joker. You re-sign Peyton Watson with the extra money. [25:32] You have him more involved offensively. And you could argue that that team's better. It's bigger. It's deeper. [25:38] You have Jokic and Gordon and Jalen as your front line. [25:44] You have more flexibility and you have somebody who can really step in if Gordon gets hurt. [25:50] which gets hurt every year. And now you're not getting destroyed if that happens and you're under the tax and you can [25:56] get Watson. That trade makes a ton of sense to me, Zach.

It's a very, it's a good trade. [26:02] It's a well done Picasso film. [26:05] Trade. [26:06] Um, [26:08] Boston gets a little smaller, I think, depending on whether Cam Johnson sticks around the team. They get a little – although they played with only one of the Jays almost all of last year anyway. [26:19] Um, [26:21] It's a good trade. I mean, Jamal Murray addresses a need for Boston. [26:25] Well, it allows them to go three guards at the same time, which is something they could only really do last year when Simons was on the team and then couldn't.

[26:33] And also, like, the reason they got into this Giannis thing in general was because they felt like, [26:38] Hugo and Shireman, [26:41] and maybe even Hauser, Walsh, they just felt like they could patch the minutes together that Jalen had with worse stats, but at least two-way stuff, [26:49] And then Tatum would take some of the offensive slack. But really, they wanted to unleash Hugo, which is why he was untouchable in that trade. [26:56] So they would cover the wings. They would still need a center. [27:00] But it's an interesting team.

And honestly, I think Murray's a great bet. I thought he had too much of a burden on the Nuggets. It was basically him or Jokic doing everything. And he's in the West. [27:10] And I thought he was really good last year, and I thought he wore down as March, April we got into the playoffs. [27:17] Celts could put him on a 30-minute game for the [27:20] timeline with White and Pritchard and I just feel like they could manage his minutes better. Here's my obstacle if I'm Denver. [27:27] is... [27:28] I have no Christian Brown is now my only proven person.

[27:33] rotation playoff level guard. [27:35] on the whole team out of out of anyone. Now I can do maybe bring back Bruce Brown on the minimum, whatever. It sounds like Tim Hardaway Jr. is going to have some suitors and maybe out of their price range. Jalen Pickett is the only point guard on the team, like the only one. [27:49] Um, [27:51] And that makes me a little bit. Wouldn't they have their mid-level in this though? Or at least like some free agent stuff? It's pretty tight, but I'd have to sit and redo the math, but they could, because they're shaving some money off.

I mean, they'd get guys, but, [28:03] I also think there'd be a learning curve of like, [28:06] fitting Jalen Brown's game with the point. You're going all in on point Jokic, like almost all in, depending on who you get in free agency. And sort of fitting Jalen Brown into that universe, I think, would be a little sticky at times. They kind of went all in on that anyway, didn't they? Well, the Murray-Jokic pick and roll, and Murray is like a fail-safe. Like, all right, tonight's Jamal's just cooking. You can run all that stuff with Jalen Brown.

It just feels a little... [28:32] a little different than me to, to me then, then, and that's maybe that's fine. And you obviously get bigger and there's something kind of fun about like you'll catch in a bunch of wings and like tweener forwards, just taking up the entire court with their arms. [28:45] - Right, a little more flexibility. That was my favorite fake one of all those. Who do you think has a longer meaning about that trade? [28:52] So it's just Murray and Cam Johnson for Jalen and Hauser. That's it.

[28:56] Who has a longer meeting about it? About that trade alone, I think Denver has the longer meeting because they are at some sort of crossroads where they need to figure out [29:08] We're really good. We fell short. [29:10] Uh, we had a lot of health issues. Aaron Gordon, again, um, [29:14] Thank you. [29:15] you know, the two teams that were above us in this hand is are just so goddamn good that and we have this all time great player in the middle of his prime. [29:23] Um, [29:24] have has what we do grown stale is it is it time to make change almost for change sake is it time to just sort of risk a little bit of like instability in the way we play just to get our upside up a little bit and or is that is that too risky i don't i don't know but i think they are at a major crossroads as a franchise i also have to bring back peyton watson by the way which we have we we didn't yeah but i think that's that's part of that trade right that [29:48] saving money, [29:49] 10 million makes it way easier to bring him back.

I mean, just imagine a lineup of Christian Brown, Jalen Brown, Peyton Watson, Aaron Gordon, and Nicole Jokic. I have no idea how that works on offense other than Jokic answers every question on offense that has ever been posed to him. But that's a pretty funky lineup. And that would be like five. I would pay a lot of money to watch them work that out. [30:10] Well, basically, you'd be getting weird. Yeah. We're going to talk about Minnesota after the break, but [30:15] It's the same kind of principle. To me, if I'm them...

[30:19] I don't think... [30:21] The team I have, I can beat OKC in San Antonio and they're fucking pitbull guards on both teams. [30:28] And I don't think I can get Jamal Murray through two straight rounds of that. Plus Minnesota, maybe two with McDaniels and Edwards, like, [30:36] I just... [30:37] You could see them wearing down in real time, I thought, last year. So that would be the reason. But – [30:44] That would be a weird one for me because obviously Jokic and Curry are my two favorite [30:48] non-Celtics and to have Jalen on a Jokic team.

And I'm about as pro-Jalen as you're going to find. [30:56] I thought he was just awesome last year and I love the fact that [31:01] The best quality about him, and this is what advanced analytics isn't going to measure, is [31:05] is he really is up for the challenge [31:09] If somebody else is a good team with a really good player, he takes it personally and wants to outplay that person in a game. And it sounds like a really dumb thing to say, but there's just not enough guys in the league that are wired like that.

[31:23] You know, where it's like, oh, this guy, I've circled this game. I've been dying to go against this team tonight. So anyway, all right, we're going to take a break, and then I'm going to unleash my lamello trade opinions. I can't wait. [31:35] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. FanDuel making the USA's run. [31:40] even more exciting. And it's starting to become a run, by the way. Every match, every goal, every step toward the knockout stage, [31:47] There is more on the line. [31:49] than ever before.

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[32:32] This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. We're in the heart of the World Cup. Look at these little special bottles for Michelob Ultra. Every play matters here. FIFA World Cup 26 for you, [32:44] mistakes, [32:46] are just this side. Michelobocho, the official beer sponsor of... [32:49] The FIFA World Cup 26 is giving you a chance to win $1 million worth of tickets and prizes. Michelob Ultra. [32:56] From the pitch to the poor. [32:59] Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup.

[33:08] Two six. [33:09] Michelob Ultra FIFA World Cup 26 Superior Access. No purchase necessary. Open to S. Residence 21 Plus begins on December 1st, 2025. Ends. [33:19] On July 31st, 2026, multiple entry periods, visit com slash superior access. [33:27] slash FIFA World Cup 26 for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. [33:33] One last point I wanted to make on that Jalen trade. [33:36] We didn't have a Houston trade in there because Houston has literally been telling everybody we want no part of Jalen. We're not interested. [33:43] Um, that team was a Bravo show last year.

How were they dry? How were they drawing the lead at, [33:48] Oh, Jalen Brown would make us weird. You guys had the weirdest team in the planet. You know what Jalen Brown would do is actually show up for games and, [33:55] Not roll over in a playoff series. Anyway, LaMelo. Wow, okay. It's just like, settle down Houston. What's the number one Bravo? You guys were a disaster last year. Educate me. What's the number one Bravo show ever? [34:07] In your life. What's a Bravo show that you watch? Real Housewives. So all the Real Housewives of any variety, that's all Bravo.

Everyone. Salt Lake. I mean, they're just still spinning off cities. They did Rhode Island. [34:19] I went to Rhode Island. If you go to rich Newport, Rhode Island, there's probably some good stuff going on there. Some good accents, too. [34:26] My wife's a big Below Deck fan. [34:29] All right, LaMelo Trade. You already gave your take. I did. Do you want me to give the cliff notes of your take, or do you want to just give your 45-second take? No, I want to hear the Bill Simmons cliff. Let's filter it through your ears.

I listened to your pod. It was a very entertaining pod. I listened to it on a nice little power walk in very hot A. [34:46] And you were bullish on the trade for, for both teams, actually. I think it's like, I think it's like a B for both teams is if I were a trade grade guy, that's what I would, that's about what I would do. [34:57] Uh, [34:58] I'm at A minus or A for Charlotte. [35:01] I'll go into the reasons in a second. [35:04] you [35:05] I couldn't believe the trade for Minnesota.

I fucking hated it. [35:09] I hated it. [35:11] I just couldn't believe it. You do this trade. I wrote down some notes. You do this trade if you want to become the most beloved NBA team with under 25 fans who play video games and are online a lot. [35:22] It's a 2K merchandise jersey selling trade. [35:26] I get it. [35:28] You don't want teams to double Anthony Edwards anymore. I feel like I get it. [35:33] is kind of an important qualifier to the fucking trade. [35:38] I get it on paper.

[35:40] LaMelo Ball would solve a lot of problems that you had with Anthony Edwards last year. There's one problem. [35:46] He doesn't fucking play. [35:48] He's played two seasons of the last six. Last year, Charlotte brilliantly... [35:54] Only he played big minutes early, got hurt, came back. I watched a ton of Charlotte last year, as you know. [36:00] They were using him like a race car on Sundays, just driving him slowly around the block. [36:05] He averaged 27.5 minutes a game. [36:08] From mid-November on, Zach. [36:10] they were really, really careful about not getting him hurt again, almost like they knew they were going to trade him this summer.

Flawed mid-20s superstar. [36:21] What does that mean? [36:24] Well, just that's how you're able to get a guy like this for Nas Reed in a first round pick in a swap. [36:30] And I get it from the Minnesota side where on paper it makes sense. Now they can play LaMelo and Ant and Io together against these smaller lineups against San Antonio and against OKC, which they didn't have the option to do last year. [36:42] And the only thing I really understand from it is that [36:46] They built... [36:47] They built that previous team to beat Denver, right?

Connell is like, we have to beat Denver. What is the team we can put together to beat Denver? [36:54] And now it seems like they've built this new team. [36:57] to beat OKC and San Antonio, who are going to have more talent than them. Well, how do you beat them? [37:01] these two three-point shooters... [37:03] And we can guard with with I own McDaniels and go bear, hopefully protecting Lamello. [37:09] And we're going to have three-point shooting variants with these two guys who in any game can get super hot. [37:15] I just don't trust LaMelo at all.

And if you're wrong, [37:18] Ant's leaving. [37:19] And by the way, Tim Connolly might be leaving too. He's got a year left on his deal. And if I'm Tim Connolly, [37:25] I'm cool making this trade because if it doesn't work out, I'm seeing you guys anyway. I'm going to be out. [37:30] He's got a year left on his deal. So this to me feels like a Hail Mary trade. [37:34] that your fans are going to like because LaMelo is the best player in it. The Charlotte fans are mad because they love LaMelo.

LaMelo doesn't fucking play. [37:41] I wrote down, [37:43] He's the least durable good guard of the last 25 years. Six seasons, 9,400 minutes, zero playoff games, which puts him... [37:52] On this crazy list of guys who have averaged 20 points a game in their first six seasons, but have played less than 10,000 minutes, and it's basically just him and John Moran and Zion, and that's it? He's not reliable. He has a, I think he has metal in his ankle. Like, this is not like, oh, Steph Curry had ankle injuries too.

The metal's injuries are way worse than Steph Curry's were, and I just wouldn't have bet on it. I thought this was a crazy trade. [38:19] Okay. [38:20] I mean, that's it. That's where I've landed. Well, and I landed there right away. [38:24] Um, [38:26] All of that, like all the availability stuff is a thousand percent fair game. [38:32] Also, um, [38:35] Something I probably should have mentioned more when I reacted the other day was there is this sort of like drip, drip, drip, trickle down effect of Minnesota transactions kind of chasing their own tail a little bit, similar to how Dallas had to chase its own tail when like, all right, we left Jalen Brunswick.

We let Jalen Brunswick. We got to trade for Kyrie. The Grant Williams thing blew up in our face. We got to trade him and a pick to replace him with Pete. There's like a little element of that of like we got, we traded everything for Gobert and [39:01] We're a little asset poor. Now we're really expensive. We're probably going to have to trade towns. We trade towns. Okay, that didn't really work. Now we have to do something else. So there's a little bit of element of like chasing their tail a bit.

I get all of the concerns. I guess my... [39:16] if you're worried about Anthony Edwards happiness level, um, [39:21] I guess my question would be what you just hold for something else down the line and go and do you not make the Randall trade? Like what do you do if you're Bill Simmons, Timberwolves, GM? Well, the Randall trade, they clear it was clearly a money dump, right? And you could say it was a two part trade, but and it opened the door for LaMelo. But I also think they just wanted to get away from Randall and not not pay this crazy luxury tax thing.

I have real questions about them spending a ton of money in general. [39:47] I mean, they're spending right now. The payroll is going to be high. I think they're going to add it. I think they're also not done. I think that's important to say. They're not done rounding out the team for next season. But the Towns trade... [39:57] was that financial trade period. Yeah. [40:00] That was it. We've got to get off some of this money and do it. And it turned out to be a really crazy trade. They have, I think, $11 million to spend on four guys.

[40:09] They don't have their own first, control their own first for seven years. [40:14] What did you think of that IO contract was the other one that I was kind of shocked by? Five years, 112 million? [40:20] What was going on there? [40:22] I... [40:23] What do you, I mean, that's what I like them, but Kobe White got the same annual, actually a little more and less years, but same annual. I got three for 74. Yeah. Less years, uh, 25 a year. I was at like 22 and a half a year.

[40:36] For five years, though? [40:38] Well, yeah. So you can't win with these contracts, right? If they're too short, you're like, oh man, we only got that guy and he's going to be extension eligible, this and that. And now this one's too long for you? How old is Io? [40:51] I just, if I had told, I know I like him too, and I thought he was really good in the playoffs. If I had told you in February when he got traded for a second round pick that he was going to sign for a five-year $112 million deal, [41:03] in the second apron thing, I just would have been surprised by it.

He's 26 years old. You can't win. Like if it's a two or three year, do you want a three year deal? Just right down the middle. That's it. That's the perfect length. [41:14] I just thought it was interesting. [41:16] They properly maybe even splurged a little on Io, but they've been cutting corners with some of these other stuff. And Randall was a guy who made multiple second-team OMBAs, [41:26] And the reason that he went sideways after the All-Star break, because they fucking tried to trade him. [41:31] Right before the trade deadline for Giannis.

And he was never the same after that. The other drip, drip, drip thing I neglected to mention in the drip, drip, drip of assets is the Dillingham pick not working out was a big, a big. But at least that turned into Iowa. Right. But again, they had to throw picks and all their chasing. [41:50] Not just mistakes, because I don't know if the Rudy trade can be classified as a mistake anymore, but they're chasing – [41:56] They're just, it's like a better that is losing and keeps chasing and keeps spending more.

It's like a Ponzi scheme blackjack thing. First of all, they missed their title window. They were a conference finals team twice in a row, and the West was weaker, and they had a real chance, and they couldn't get there. And you go back to that Dallas series. [42:12] I think was really probably their best chance when you think about that matchup and they couldn't beat him. [42:18] I didn't mention this in my Lamello case. [42:20] or anti-Lamello trade case. And I really liked watching Lamello last year, and I enjoyed the hell out of the Hornets.

We have... [42:29] Zero. [42:31] I repeat, zero evidence that Lomelo Ball can hold up for one playoff series in [42:37] With this Hoops IQ, [42:38] Or the physicality of a playoff series, much less for what Minnesota is trying to do with a trade like this. [42:45] win four playoff rounds or at least three to get to the finals. [42:49] We've never seen him play at the level of the playoffs we just watched with the physicality of the teams that we watched. And just... [42:56] What basketball is like, you're going to need, this is like the Wembe conversation.

[42:59] if this is your second best player, sorry, buddy, you can't play 27.5 minutes each game, you know, in a series. Like, [43:06] We're going to need you for 37 now, and it's going to be really physical, and you're going to get banged down. You're going to get knocked in the basket support. You can't take the 30-footer with 30 seconds left in the game down one. [43:17] with, you know, 20 seconds left in the shot clock, like, [43:20] You have to become a smarter, better player. I thought he made a lot of strides last year.

[43:25] But that Miami playing game was a roller coaster. I mean, think of how nuts we went after that game. Then the next game they got blown out. But I just, we have no evidence that this is a guy who could handle a playoff series against San Antonio or OKC. But this is exactly why the Hornets traded him. It's exactly what I said on my show is like, just the physicality, toughness, all that stuff you just said. [43:46] Plus, I do, and I said this too, I do think [43:50] Their record in the play-in tournament, it's only been four games, and three of them have been absolutely disastrous blowout losses.

In the Miami one, he did have 30 points, but I think he shot 12 of 31. Also, fair to note, he's a rookie, but Khan was a disaster down the stretch of the season. Khan was hurt, though. I mean, Khan hurt his back. He wasn't the same in the last 10 games. Don't you talk about my son that way. I was going to say, I don't know what would happen if... He was hurt, though. [44:20] Khan is becoming like the battle for your heart is getting a little it's getting it's they both have [44:27] They both have some work to do to prove themselves to you.

Listen, I love them like I love both my children. We don't pick. When you have two kids, you just support them equally. And so it's an easy out for you because when the Hornets play the Celtics, when one team plays the other, you're going to cheer for the Celtics because that's your team. We need Hugo going to get traded for another team. That's the true test of who your real love goes to. But that's exactly why the Hornets, I think, traded. [44:57] and all this stuff, I think it really just boiled down to...

[45:00] We watch the playoffs and we just don't think he can hang at that level. And that those are all fair points. [45:06] We don't trust him physically or basketball IQ-wise to win 16 playoff games with this guy. I think you can get over the IQ stuff because, like you said, I think it trended well last year. I think being the clear second best guy on a team is going to really kind of force him to recalibrate some of the ways he plays. [45:24] But I think it's more of the physicality stuff.

And I think that's a completely fair bet for Charlton. I think when you combine this trade with the Bridges trade that happened today that we're going to talk about, I think Charlotte has come out looking awesome just to put those together. Great work by the Hornets who continue to just kill it under their new regime. For Minnesota, I would just ask again. [45:46] What are what what path? I mean, according to John Krasinski, they tried to get Jalen Brown and they couldn't get, you know, like this package was not going to get them Jalen Brown.

So what what do you you're trying to compete with San Antonio, Oklahoma City? [46:02] You're on the clock with Anthony Edwards. [46:05] What... [46:06] The status quo was not acceptable, right? Like that's that, like we, we clearly they didn't think so. So you're laying out all the, you're laying out all the logic for some of the, the worst big NBA trades we've had over the last 40 years. I don't like, well, we got to do something. Okay. I don't disagree. Can you talk to something to LaMelo Ball? I don't disagree.

First of all, I think LaMelo Ball, I think a lot of this has to do with what your prior is on LaMelo Ball. And you and I have disagreed about LaMelo Ball for like five years. I just think he's better than you think he is. I've always thought he's been better than you think. I value durability though. That's fine. [46:36] I like when guys play. It's like, it's one of my weird things. I like seeing them on a basketball. It's not weird. [46:41] But I guess you're saying just do nothing and just figure it out later, which is a completely logical way to go about it.

I think the Wolves had concluded that that wasn't an option for them. [46:55] I think they're going to be good. I think this is going to work, and I think they're going to be good. If your bar is, well, can they beat San Antonio four times out of seven, or Oklahoma City four times out of seven, it's a pretty tough bar to hit. But I think offensively this is going to be a stupid— That's my bar for all the trades they made because I felt like last year one of the reasons— [47:14] they didn't look better in the playoffs, was they had a bunch of injuries at a bad time.

Edward was hurt in the playoffs. Aya was... [47:21] got hurt during the playoffs, and defense Shenzhou got hurt during the playoffs. Like, to me, this feels like an overreaction to all that. And so the stat I had before, first six seasons, less than 10K minutes, just guys who average 18 points a game, [47:35] basically merger on. [47:37] It's Ja, Lamello, Zion, and Clark Kellogg. [47:40] Um, that's it. Those are all the guys in the last like 45 years. He turns 25 in August. [47:45] And if you're trying to make the case for Minnesota...

[47:48] You would say, look, we've seen a lot of success with immature, injury prone, talented guys in the first like five, six years of their career who went to a different team. [47:59] and put it together. [48:01] And I think there's going to be nights with this team. And I'm sure the Minnesota fans will be on high alert. And even people I have in my life, like Nate Tice, who liked Minnesota, there's going to be nights where, [48:09] when they're on TV on a Thursday night, [48:13] And they're playing somebody awesome.

And LaMelo hits eight threes and Ant hits nine. And they beat somebody by 18 and they look awesome. And they're doing like chest bumps and, [48:22] All kinds of stuff to make court. People are like, oh, how's that Lobelo trade now? I'm just telling you. Talk to me in April and May. There's going to be Bill Simmons poo-pooing it. Yeah, yeah. Just wait. Just talk to me April and May. I don't care what happens October through March. I just don't. Here's the real question with Minnesota. And I don't. [48:43] I think people think this question has been answered because – [48:46] They made two straight conference finals and there had been such a woebegone franchise for so long between Garnett and those two conference finals.

[48:55] that people think the question has been answered definitively as a yes, they should have made the Rudy Gobert trade. [49:02] If you just... [49:03] Reverse time. [49:06] Like if you assume that the Gobert acquisition – [49:10] is why they ultimately had to dump Towns. [49:12] And we all said when they traded for Rudy Gobert, [49:16] a town's deal looks inevitable because of the financial realities and the fact that he's a center and all this. Like we all said it at the time, like as soon as that trade happened, even before it happened, I remember saying if they do this, [49:27] the Towns trade is the next domino that will come eventually.

[49:30] Did they give up on Ant Plus Towns? [49:33] too early to, [49:34] by making the Gobert trade, I think is still kind of an open question because it not only [49:39] robbed you of a lot of assets. I think they clearly overpaid for Gobert. It both got them team success... [49:47] To a point that people have already stopped questioning whether they should have made the trade or not. And that's okay. But they clearly overpaid either way. And it forced their hand on Kat. [49:56] And we just didn't get to see all that much of like, [49:59] Anthony Edwards plus Carl Anthony Towns is the foundation of a team.

I think it's just an interesting question. [50:05] I hated the Gobert trade as much as any trade I've ever, that's been made. They made two conference finals with it. [50:13] I don't know if I was wrong. I didn't get to the finals. I thought they gave up too much. That's the thing. I don't know if you were wrong. And I was on TV that moment, and I said, on ESPN – [50:24] I am in disbelief at how much they gave up for Rudy Gobert. And, and, [50:29] I was as puzzled as you were.

I maybe didn't hate it, hated as much as you did. [50:34] And I'm not even sure you were wrong despite the conference. I guess you are wrong because of the conference finals. But like this, this, all of this starts with that trade.