Trump Works the FIFA Refs

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com slash crooked. Hurry, because there's no safe like SimpliSafe. [01:26] As Americans, we're constantly grappling with the fundamental question: Do we settle for the world as it is, or do we strive to create the world as it should be? Our answers tend to ebb and flow through the decades. But once, just after a war that nearly tore us apart, we were able to do it. [01:45] We came as close as we've come to answering it. [01:48] And it's a story worth a closer look. I'm Michelle Obama, and I'm proud to announce Higher Ground's new podcast, Reconstruction, The Unfinished Promise.

Guided by bestselling author Malcolm Gladwell and featuring my husband, Barack Obama, this limited series uncovers the untold stories of Reconstruction, what they mean for us today, and how our past can shape the future we choose to build. [02:18] The Unfinished Promise is available now on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts. [02:25] you [02:28] *Music* [02:48] Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Levin. I'm Tommy Vitor. [02:51] John is taking some much needed time off to tweet with his family. On today's show, Donald Trump is working the refs at the World Cup before heading to a NATO summit in Turkey.

We've got... [03:00] Two big developments in the Democratic Senate primaries in Maine, Grant Platt interfaces [03:04] serious and disturbing allegations of sexual assault in Michigan, Mallory McMorrow drops out, making that one a two-way race. We also look at the conservative freakout over a patriotic speech by New York Mayor Zohan Mamdani. And we ask the question the mainstream media is afraid to ask, is Mitch McConnell alive? [03:19] Currently. I've been wondering that, too. [03:22] Depends on which Twitter you read. [03:25] him... [03:26] Yeah. [03:27] I mean, it's an important question. It is.

It is. All right, let's get to the news. Starting with the World Cup last week when the S. flayed Bosnia and Herzegovina, star forward Flo Balogin, got a red card for stepping on a defender's ankle. I said Bosnia and Herzegovina because I remember that that's how it was said in the 90s when Bill Clinton was bombing from the skies. That was during that era. I remember that from when I was a kid. Remember that, NATO? But I remember that, NATO. But now... [03:52] I'm being told it's Bosnia and Herzegovina. [03:54] It's tough.

Under FIFA rules, when a player gets a red card, they have to leave the game. Their team has to finish the match with only 10 players. And the player who got the red card has to sit out the next game. But we found out on Sunday afternoon that FIFA was suspending that second part of the punishment for Balogun after a call from Trump to FIFA president Gianni Infantino. [04:12] Now, in a long Twitter post on Monday, Infantino said the decision had been made by the association's independent judicial body, but declined to give any specifics.

Then again, this is the guy who awarded Trump the first ever FIFA Peace Prize last December. Whatever happened on the call, it seems unlikely that Trump's deep knowledge of the sport changed any minds. [04:31] I think the referee's call was horrible. And nobody talks about that. They talk about the red card like it's fine. Nobody talks about it. The referee's decision to red card. I didn't know what the hell a red card was when I found out. I said, you've got to be kidding. [04:44] This guy just hands up. OK, your best player is not going to play next week or in the next game.

[04:50] I said, wow, that's a lot of power. That's terrible. So... [04:54] Yes, I asked for a review... [04:57] by FIFA. I had nothing to do with the decision. What I did have to do is [05:01] I said, I think it should be reviewed because I watched the play. [05:05] And he didn't do anything wrong. [05:07] Okay, so the red card seems pretty wrong, but so does Trump's meddling. What do you think? Yeah, I'm no ref, but the red card seems like it was bullshit. A lot of people I follow talk about this stuff all the time think it was worth the yellow card.

Lionel Messi did something very similar in a different game in this World Cup, didn't get carded at all. It also seems like they used the video review improperly. So on like a karmic level, I'm not sure. [05:31] This is the right outcome. Like, Flo Balgan deserves to play. He's an incredible player. What makes it, like, head-spinning is... [05:39] all the reporting after the red card was that there was no way to review. Right. Right. So we all were like, oh, man, we're screwed here. And then apparently it turns out like the president could just call the head of FIFA, his old buddy.

[05:51] I am like, I have a lot of feelings about this. I'm annoyed that the conversation about this team and their success, because they're awesome. They're so good. His now kind of like, [05:59] is tainted by this bullshit. I think it is obviously bad. Like, well, [06:06] from the Trump point of view, like... [06:08] It's not... [06:09] necessarily bad for him to advocate on behalf of his country right like you could imagine yeah another president doing this in a way that just seemed less corrupt like keir starmer um apparently weighed in on the start time of the england mexico game because he was worried about that so i think like mostly this is just really really bad for fifa it's par for the course for them because they're a terrible corrupt organization in 2015 a bunch of people were indicted on like 150 million in bribes and kickbacks related to the world cup um the former head of

[06:39] now on Twitter criticizing this decision, so that's when it's getting a little weird. But like, it's just impossible to separate this decision from the very long-standing, very weird, very corrupt relationship between Trump and Gianni Infantino. Trump's a corrupt person. We know that his, like, one speed when he wants something is brute force, so we don't know what happened to any of these calls, but we know that he got the outcome that he wanted. Yeah, so a lot of the [07:01] A lot of the coverage has been around the call itself, but there was a shocking amount of administrative focus on the red card in a very short period of time.

Andrew Giuliani, who's Rudy Giuliani's son, was appointed to lead some kind of World Cup task force. He apparently, according to Politico, has been talking to Trump several times a week about the World Cup. You have Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick, who was at the game, saying... Sitting next to Infantino. Oh, sitting next... I didn't realize he was sitting right next to him. [07:31] saying that he was offering White House lawyers to assist the S. team in trying to fight this. There was other threats from the S. team and from the administration behind the scenes around other ways they could challenge this rule and through other kinds of means that I guess the pressure mounted.

And then there was this call on top of it. Yeah, it... [07:51] On the one hand, [07:53] It does feel like another story where you have the president. He's focused on the biggest fireworks, the ballroom, the reflecting pool, the statues, the arches, all that. He's focused on sports, not on the actual substance of the job and the things that people want him to pay attention to. But I have the same feeling as you, which is of all the ways in which Trump could be a bully, [08:15] bullying to have an advantage removed from Belgium at the expense of a corrupt group of European chauvinists is like not that big of a sin.

No, no, it's not. And like for what it's worth, the New York Post had this reporting that S. soccer was already preparing to fight the decision. They were especially focused on the VAR system, the video review system, and that it was improperly used to make this call. And they were preparing to appeal to something called the Court of Arbitration for Sport. [08:45] So maybe they acted to preempt that. So there's a chance here that Trump is taking credit for something that was already in motion, which is something presidents get to do, good or bad.

[08:54] All that said, Belgium has a right to be pissed off. Other teams have a right to be pissed off. They want one clear set of rules. They never get it from FIFA. [09:03] Imagine, though, if this was the 2018 World Cup in Russia, Putin lobs in a call to FIFA to overturn some ruling. We'd all be ripping our hair out and screaming about injustice and corruption and oligarchy. FIFA's made similar exceptions, including one for Cristiano Ronaldo to make sure he didn't miss a game in the tournament. [09:24] about money.

And like the way to understand Infantino is he just sucks up to the most powerful person he needs at all times. So I think everyone, of course, assumes that he viewed this as doing a favor for Trump, even if it hurt his reputation. Yeah, it's like I can see like you can imagine Obama at a press conference getting a question like that was bullshit, man. Like that [09:45] This is where having independent, trustworthy organizations is important, right? Because, sure, an American leader should put pressure for the American team, but you need to trust that the other side of it will not let that influence the decisions, but you can't trust that here.

You also can't trust that Trump is not abusing his relationships and his financial entanglements with Infantino and all the rest. So, anyway, Trump made soccer about him somehow. [10:15] We'll find out. I'm excited to watch. And I just want... I watch Angel City. All right? I am a season ticket holder. So I'm not... I am, like, getting into soccer. Have you been watching these games? You know, here's what my problem is with the way that we... Because you have it on, and I see you getting into it. I find that with soccer, I either want to watch the whole game...

[10:33] or I want to see highlights at the end. But I have trouble dipping in and out because for me, it's about like the... [10:38] The way like you can watch a team and even if I didn't understand this, I started watching soccer that even if a goal isn't scored during an entire half, you're still like understanding the way the teams are going up against each other. And I feel like it's hard to get that when you're just looking up for a computer. Yeah, I have to say this has been.

Yeah. [10:53] One of the best World Cups I've ever seen. Every game has been, like, down to the wire and exciting. There's been all these late goals. There's been, like, late goals called back, incredible headers. Some of the best goals I've ever seen, like Cabo Verde. [11:04] goal to tie it up the second time in overtime against Argentina was like one of the most incredible shots ever. So just like the storylines, the gameplay itself, the big players delivering in big moments has just been incredible. And that's why it was like particularly annoying to all of a sudden have to talk about Trump again, because it was just a reprieve from him.

He like, interestingly, despite the cup being in the United States, well, it's Canada and Mexico too, he just like hadn't made himself a part of it. He will at the end, he'll give out the trophy to the [11:34] from it and now it's just like him again and some of the worst like concerns about what would happen with people traveling to the s haven't i mean we haven't seen that much of like what we the worst possible like people being stopped being unable to come see the games you did have this little moment with the iranian team uh protesting the

s which i thought was uh in mexico when they did it but i thought it was particularly moving yeah we were real dicks to the iranians for no good reason like we wouldn't let them stay in the united states and make them like fly back and forth from mexico to games there were some issues with like one of the african refs was denied entry into the country for some like [12:03] vetting reason that seems like mostly bullshit um but there was the the level of anxiety going into the world cup was way higher than kind of the level of the problem yeah in fact it's like the opposite it's like all these foreigners coming to america kind of nervous and feeling like they love it and like going to waffle house for the first time and making viral videos and it's just been like this fun like joyful melting of cultures we have uh beautiful cultures combining in the

s meanwhile trump is heading to turkey for the annual nato summit and trump intervening [12:33] pals to remove what would have been an advantage for Belgium seems like a pretty good metaphor for European frustrations with American hegemony. There will be a lot of discussion of defense spending and of ending the war in Ukraine. Russia was striking at civilian targets in Kiev this week, and Ukraine is actually less able to defend itself in part because of a shortage of interceptor missiles made worse by Trump's war in Iran. What are you watching for in this summit, and what are you hoping for out of it?

Yeah, I mean, you got at the top line, which is like [13:03] the divide between the S. and Europe are widening or narrowing. Trump is still furious about the lack of support from Europe when it came to the war with Iran, and Europeans are still rightly furious that we started a war with Iran and harmed them in the process. So we could see more discussion about whether the Trump administration is going to pull S. troops out of Europe to punish countries like Spain that opposed the war. Remember, at some point, Pete Hegseth was floating that we're going to pull troops out of Poland, then Trump heard about it.

He got mad. So it's been all over the place. Rubio was mad about that, too. [13:36] There's competing worldviews out there. It's time to move on from America worldview that you're hearing from Mark Carney in Canada. And then Mark Ruta, the NATO Secretary General, is more of the ass kisser, like keep Trump on sides guy. So the other thing Trump loves to do with these NATO summits is browbeat these countries about defense spending. He's now demanding that countries spend 5% of GDP on defense by 2035. Now, before him, Obama, Bush, others were critical of NATO countries for not spending enough.

[14:03] they wanted to get to like 2%. 5% is absurd. That said, it's like a fake target because 3.5 of the 5% goes to military spending and then 1.5% is defined as security-related investments. And that could mean like roads, bridges, cybersecurity. So for the record, I wanted to talk about NATO. You did. I know. I was pumped. And in part because [14:25] So last year, this was the summit where Mark Ruta, who's the secretary general of NATO, this is where he called Trump daddy. I think it was a low moment for him.

It was not great. And it came to represent like the Ruta strategy, which is you just suck up to him in public and you do your best to mitigate the damage in private. But in the years since that summit, you have Trump threatening tariffs over Greenland. You have the war in Iran. The administration has proposed and actually enacted some troop drawdowns are threatening more. [14:55] Six months ago, that's when Mark Carney gives this speech laying out, I think for the first time in a really, I think, in a way that felt like a legitimate alternative.

All right. The sucking up approach. [15:06] while trying in private to persuade him doesn't seem to be working. There was a really deeply reported story in the Wall Street Journal about the European view of America. And there was a lot in there. But the experience of Europeans coming to the, beseeching Trump to defend Ukraine, him seeming to agree, and then an hour-long conversation with Putin wipes the fucking thing clean. And so... [15:28] We're at this moment where there does seem to be a real possibility of Europe actually viewing this as not a Trump problem, but an America problem.

Yeah, it's really – it's troubling. I mean, look, the – [15:42] On the Ukraine piece, I mean, Trump is going to meet with Zelensky. [15:45] We'll see what comes out of that. Zelensky's wish list is like, I want to be able to manufacture Patriot missile interceptors in my country. [15:54] feels like a win-win. Um, the Ukrainians have done all this really important stuff with drone technology, uh, and using that to using drones to intercept drones. So you're not spending like $3 million on an interceptor missile to take down the $30,000 to head drone.

So there's areas of coordination there. Like hopefully trouble just do no harm when it comes to Zelensky, not pull back support, uh, intelligence support for them. Hopefully we'll like, [16:17] recommit to a serious peace process and stop whatever this joke is that's being led by steve wikoff and jared kushner and the russian oligarch of the day that's seemingly just about deal making for those guys um there's also this whole like subplot at nato about turkey and whether erdogan is a reliable partner whether the s should sell turkey f-35 the israelis really don't want that to happen and then there's just like the petty shit like

[16:41] Keir Starmer and Trump don't really get along. It was Starmer's last NATO. Georgia Maloney and Trump, the Italian leader, prime minister. There was a back and forth where he claimed she wanted a picture with him. And she was like, what the fuck are you talking about? Right. So we'll see. I mean, it's just this could be nothing or it could be him just picking a fight with a bunch of euros. There's a way they're just sick of it. It just seems like they're sick of it. And because the root of thing, right, is, hey, guys, he's demanding 5%.

You can count a bridge. [17:11] Right. It's by 2035. It's never going to happen. He's going to be long gone. Just say you're going to meet the commitment. Put forward some way of proving it. Right. [17:20] He wants the flattery in public. He wants the great headline, and we can slow roll it and deal with it after he's gone, but there seems to be an – [17:27] like the a shift in which they're just no longer willing to play along as much as they were before and in the Wall Street Journal report there was that Europeans are also removing American tech from their systems they're urging civil servants to no longer use Microsoft Teams or Office they're spending hundreds of billions of dollars to try to boost Europe's own private space firms AI companies and data centers and it seems like [17:49] I was interested in this in part because it seems as though Trump's, his bravado, his bullying, it is predicated on America being indispensable and it's too hard to shift away from us.

But that is only true if they treat it as if it is true. Yeah, it's true. I mean, I think they're kind of waking up to how many different ways they're reliant on the S. Like the NATO piece is obvious. Like the S. is what, like 70% of NATO, right, if the S. pulls out of that. If we refuse to honor the Article 5 commitment within NATO, NATO kind of falls apart. [18:19] a while. I think they're also concerned about their reliance on the big-ticket weapon systems. You're seeing quotes being like, is there a kill switch in the F-35 if we buy those?

I hope there is. Could Trump just turn them off? I still love this country, and I hope there is. [18:37] completely incoherent approach to AI models, like the Mythos model from Anthropic. One day, [18:45] the administration just cuts it off to any foreign partner. Then a couple of weeks later, they turned it back on. And I think, [18:51] these European countries understand that this tech is going to get embedded into everything they do, their economy, weapon systems, everything, and they have no AI industry. And I think they're worried about that, and they're trying to scramble to catch up a little bit.

And then I would imagine they're looking at us replacing NASA with Elon Musk and kind of worried that their ability to launch stuff into space going forward runs through that guy. Right, like it's just like two mercurial people. You're relying on the S. for defense. You can't trust them anymore. You're relying on Elon Musk to provide access to Starlink. [19:21] about that and then on the other side of it, right? And then they see Mark Carney, right? And [19:25] Canada is even more dependent on the US than the Europeans are, and he's sort of charting this other...

[19:31] path. But it's not just that if NATO would go away, and then they would be in trouble. NATO would go away, and then they would have to spend not 5%, but 10%, 15%. They'd have to have a real defense, which currently we subsidize. Well, what's so funny about this is like, basically, NATO exists to deter a Russian invasion. And then Trump sort of doesn't seem to care about Russia invading other countries. So why are we spending all this time browbeating European countries to increase their defense spending to 5% if he fundamentally doesn't really care about the existence of the organization?

That's like the internal incoherence [20:01] He feels like we're getting ripped off and he likes to yell at them and that's become his... [20:05] Right. It does seem like that's the resistance, right? Because... [20:08] They made the commitment last year. I don't know if they all did, but almost all of the countries did make the commitment. Spain refused, right? They didn't get to 5%. And now this is a meeting about proving they're going to do it. And there's never a day at which... [20:20] They've successfully assuaged Trump. And now we can get to the work of rebuilding the alliance in the years since they made those commitments.

That's when he threatened to put tariffs on because of Greenland. Yeah. And if you're the UK, I mean, like you have this demand from Trump to increase defense spending there. There clearly is a need for them to improve, modernize and beef up their military. But they're also like their economy has been bumping along kind of stagnant for a decade. So they have all these pressing economic domestic concerns, too. And you get pulled between the two. And then, you know, Mark. [20:46] Trump just decides to bully you every once in a while.

And Mark Carney gave a great speech in Davos talking about this sort of post-America world. I think the challenge is like, okay, in practice, can he really cobble together this alliance of middle powers to really push back on the S. and become another power center? It just remains to be seen. [21:06] Every dollar is not the same dollar. It is not good for the S. and it's quite costly for Europe to have to build redundant capabilities to the United States. That is instead of the S. I mean, it is Donald Trump does not care about our national interests, but it is better for us as a country if they are buying, if whatever, 2 percent of their spending involves purchasing a lot of our support versus 4 percent of their spending being independent.

[21:36] defense spending, most of that money is going to get shoveled overseas to S. defense contractors, to Raytheon and stuff. And it's like a terrible economic investment for the leaders of these countries. It's not really a return on that dollar. It's not flowing through their economy. It's just [21:48] going over to the S. because Donald Trump wants it. [21:52] So we'll keep an eye on, you know, let's see if NATO's around by next episode. [22:05] Pod Save America is brought to you by Article. Article makes it effortless to build a home that lasts without the boutique markup.

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[24:11] Go to com slash cricket for $35 off your first order of premium wild-caught seafood. That's com slash cricket for $35 off your first order. Thanks to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsoring this episode. [24:26] Now, we also have a lot of domestic politics to get to, starting with new and terrible allegations against Graham Plattner. [24:33] The Wall Street Journal reported at the end of May that Plattner had been sexting with women who weren't his wife just months before launching his campaign. Plattner then told a private meeting of anxious Democratic senators that despite the rumors, there were no other shoes to drop.

Then on June 4th, five days before the primary, The New York Times published a story in which women who had dated Plattner talked about a bunch of troubling incidents and dynamics. Plattner then won the primary handily. [25:03] gave more details about her experiences with Platner. She said that in 2021, he showed up at her house, drunk, without being invited, went in, forced her to have sex with him against her will. She told Politico that she withheld those details because she did not want to be known as a rape victim. Moments after the story published, the Platner campaign posted a response video.

Here is what Platner said. [25:23] I wanted to directly address the troubling, serious, and false allegations against me. [25:30] Any accusation of non-consensual behavior is categorically false. Regardless of the inaccuracy of the reporting, [25:38] but mindful of the political reality it will inflict. We are taking the time to reflect on the best path forward. For the state that I love, [25:45] The people that I love. [25:47] the movement I belong to, and the goal of defeating Susan Collins. So just so people know, if he withdraws by July 13th, he can be replaced on the ballot.

[26:00] Tommy, what was your reaction to the story? The allegations in the story are really bad and troubling. They seem credible. They're backed up by documentation. And so obviously the impact politically is not just what's in the story. It's this cumulative impact of a series of articles and allegations about him. And the feeling that he just has not been fully transparent and honest about some of the allegations, like you mentioned. I mean, there was this meeting in Washington a while ago where these questions were put to him directly. And the answer, I think, sounds like it was just no.

And now there's all this reporting. [26:30] So I think my takeaway from that video was that he's going to drop out of the race. I think he has to drop out of the race. Like you said, if he drops by the 13th, the main Democratic Party will choose a replacement by July 27th. I have no idea. [26:44] who they're going to choose. I'm very worried now about the prospect of winning this seat. If the party can get its act together, we ultimately could be in a stronger place politically than we would be with Plattner and all this baggage if these stories had come out later.

I think the challenge is going to be... [27:02] You had all these voters who turned out and voted for Graham Plattner despite the Reddit posts, despite the tattoos in, you know, story and all the other scandals. [27:13] turning out to signal that they wanted something different and that they were angry at the establishment. And I don't know who in Maine can speak to that anger. [27:22] but also has been vetted by the party and has been through the political process. Because, look, as much as Janet Mills' supporters deserve to be angry and deserve the I told you so's they're saying today, the problem was that Maine voters were not supporting her.

They didn't. [27:37] want to vote for her. And so this wasn't like some online vibes issue. It was like what the electorate was saying in the state where it matters. So I think I don't know where they go from here. [27:48] And she suspended her campaign before any votes were cast. Right. So there wasn't an alternative in the primary. Yeah, he has to he has to end the campaign so that we have a chance of defeating Susan Collins. I think the story is horrible. I find it, you know, starting from when you interviewed him about the tattoo, he has not always been transparent about it.

[28:18] deeply reported, backed up by contemporaneous evidence and previous conversations. [28:26] It comports with what he said, which is that he was drinking a lot. And the story describes him as being drunk, potentially not remembering it the next day. And so then we have a video of him categorically denying something, which it doesn't seem he's really in a position to deny. So he has to withdraw to give us a chance. And what I took away from watching this video, from reading this [28:48] is it is clear that [28:50] This is somebody that has not maybe even been honest with himself about what was going on in the dark phases of his life.

Yeah. But that is not for us to deal with in a Senate race that will determine the control of his. Yeah. Look, obviously, a big lesson here is that vetting is really important. And some of the vetting gets done by campaigns themselves. And then ultimately it will be done by the media if the campaigns don't figure that part out. [29:16] But we should be clear about what kind of stuff comes up in vetting. The Reddit posts should come up in vetting. Online accounts, that should come up in vetting. I've never heard of a campaign calling exes to sort of...

[29:28] Suss out. [29:29] stories like this, right? I mean, I think what happens is campaigns have conversations with the candidate. They ask them a series of questions. If the candidate is not candid back to them, then they're in a very difficult position. And like when I interviewed Plattner about his Reddit posts and the tattoo, like I was not aware of any of these allegations. None of this was public yet, just for the record, because I would have asked. I still don't think there's evidence that he intended to get a Nazi tattoo on purpose or that he had like Nazi leanings.

In fact, I think the [29:59] shows the opposite. But like you just said, I have come to believe... [30:04] over time and over learning more information that he just wasn't being honest about when he learned that, uh, what, what the tattoo was or what it looked like. And I don't know if he was being honest with himself or the campaign about it. Um, and so I think like the question is like, what do you do with that information? What's the lesson here? I hope it's not that we don't try to run people from outside of politics because I think like if that's a good thing, I want people [30:34] perspectives.

Also, there have clearly been vetting problems within the party, too. Eric Swalwell was in Congress for a decade. There were horrifying allegations that came out about him. He was in leadership. He was close with Pelosi. He was an establishment favorite who had some horrible allegations in his past. But yeah, it's [30:51] It's horrible. It's awful. It's really sad. A lot of people believed in him, believed in this campaign. I know they're going to feel devastated by this. A lot of people are going to be really angry. There's going to be a lot of anxiety about our ability to win this seat.

And, you know, hopefully that Maine Democrats can pick someone good to replace him quickly and get this righted. [31:10] Yeah, there's going to be a lot of, I think, people sort of doing their kind of... [31:14] factional kind of point scoring about it. [31:17] too and fine people can have at it. There are people who felt like this was not a person that should have been trusted with a Senate nomination because of the Reddit posts, because of the tattoo that this was enough to say we should be looking in another direction.

That has turned out to be true. But what has consistently been, I think, the way in which people talk past each other in these sort of inter-party debates is you view Graham Plattner as unacceptable. [31:43] Voters. [31:45] seemed to find the establishment candidates even less acceptable. And there was a way to defeat Graham Plattener with a viable alternative, and that wasn't presented during the race. And... [31:58] That doesn't mean criticism of Graham Plattner wasn't completely and totally justified. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with supporting Janet Mills. But now we have to figure out how to find that person who can represent the party in the Senate race because the stakes remain controlled.

Yeah. And look, I think ultimately I just. [32:16] don't get the sense that Janet Mills really wanted to run. Yeah. And she was like pushed and pushed and kind of dragged into it. And it came through, you know, and like she didn't seem like she wanted the campaign. I understand that. There was also this insurgent candidacy happening. [32:30] And she just, yeah, it's just the whole situation is just terrible. Even after the June 4th story, she said, I am still technically on the ballot, but didn't reactivate the campaign. So, you know, it's a terrible situation.

And the story is horrible. And my thoughts go to, like, I think of that person who finally felt like they didn't get their story out the first time the story ran. They felt they had to come forward and tell it in even more gruesome detail. And that is terrible and a brave thing to do. And I still hope we win that fucking seat. [33:00]. [33:06] Pod Save America is brought to you by Tommy John. [33:09] Summer can be rough on the body. Public transport is a sauna. Your walk to work feels medically unsafe, and sometimes it feels like there's not enough air conditioning in the world to save you.

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In other campaign news over the weekend, Michigan State Senator Mallory McMorrow ended her primary campaign for S. Senate, creating a two-way race between Abdul El-Sayed and Congresswoman Haley Stevens. McMorrow is seen as a rising star in the party, but she failed to gain traction in the race and had been stuck in single digits in recent polling. Stevens has the backing of Chuck Schumer, the DSCC, and AIPAC is positioning herself as the electable moderate. [35:41] Yeah, I just... [35:59] To be clear, I also am biased. Abdul's a friend. He did a show on her network.

I'm a donor to his campaign, so I just want to put that all out there. I think Mallory started... [36:08] um as a long shot like she she was known online because of like viral speeches a few years ago but i think statewide she had very low uh name id and that's a real challenge and i think um you also had a duel as the like very clear bernie sanders endorsed progressive favorite and then you had hayley stevens with the schumer support the institutional support and the tens of millions of dollars in outside money that comes with it i think they 32 million has been spent on her behalf

[36:38] path where I cobble off some votes from the more progressives by being more electable and some from the establishment. And it just, it never quite worked. And then I think she made sort of what turned out to be a fatal error by attack attacking Abdul for campaigning with Hassan Piker, which made progressives think that she was not, [36:57] credible or viable and then I think it got Abdul more attention than he had gotten in a very long time and it just sort of like started this slow um attrition and support and so I think so also lumped her in with Haley yeah it made her seem more like the establishment which was sort of played into the uh Abdul message so I just think like she ultimately never could really find a clear lane yeah there was some also I would just say like a fair amount of like [37:24] hostility towards Mallory McMorrow online and it reminded me a little about [37:30] of when it was Bernie versus Elizabeth Warren toward the end of that primary.

And it was like, oh, you know, we have our person. And so you're a threat to our candidate. And it was sort of pretty hostile towards McMorrow. So... [37:44] Now the question is, I think, what happens to... There weren't that many McMorrow voters by the end, but there are still a lot of undecided people. [37:54] And... [37:54] Haley is going to be making an electability argument against Abdul. Some of that will be around him being on the left. I think some of it will be subtly or not so subtly about him, his identity.

What do you think? Yeah, I think there's... [38:08] Ugh. [38:09] There's sort of this assumption that Mallory's votes are just going to go to Haley. I think that's wrong. Like, I've heard from people who've seen a lot of polling that Mallory's votes are very much split. It's not an obvious boon to Haley Stevens. We'll probably see another poll soon. We'll have a better sense. But, like, the old theory of politics was... [38:25] the progressive lane was like 35, maybe 40%. You know, that was sort of the ceiling. And then the rest of the votes would go to more established, kind of moderate normie dims.

This cycle, though, we're seeing the total rejection of the establishment on the left and on the right. We're also seeing progressive candidates all over the country in New York, Colorado, lots of places do really, really well. And that would seem to benefit Abdul. There are questions about Haley's abilities as a messenger. [38:55] foreign policy and support for Israel and AIPAC has been more of an animating issue than we've seen in a very, very long time. And I think that speaks to an adult strength. So those would be all arguments for...

[39:07] why he could benefit or do well coming out of this move for Mallory. But, um, [39:14] We don't know. I mean, like there's a ton of money getting spent for Haley. She's a better known quantity in the state. And then, as you said, I think there will be a lot of talk about electability, fear of losing this seat, the strength of their opponent. And you're right, like a lot of that will be code for Abdul's a Muslim guy. But we'll just see what message resonates with voters. [39:44] a huge proxy for a lot of the issues in the party about left, right, Israel, Gaza, that we'll talk about in a second.

Yeah, we've been saying for a while now that there is this realignment on Israel, and it seems to be happening. Yeah. [39:57] very quickly during this primary. John and Dan talked earlier [40:02] on the show Friday about Kamala Harris reaching out to Zoran and AOC and the leaders of the Uncommitted Movement in Michigan as she prepares her potential 2028 run. On Wednesday, another potential 2028 candidate, Rahm Emanuel, the son of an Israeli independence fighter and a career moderate, will give a speech in Tel Aviv, essentially threatening an end to American support for Israel unless there are major changes.

Here's how Abdul talked about the issue recently. [40:26] This is a moral Rorschach test. Like if you can't identify the systematic murder of tens of thousands of kids, [40:32] as a genocide, [40:33] And then you want to say that you're a fighter for human rights and dignity. [40:37] That's just hypocrisy. [40:39] So I just think that if you can't call the most heinous, [40:43] violation of human rights, what it is, [40:46] It's hard for me to believe that you're going to go and fight the Trump administration or fight the pharma CEOs or fight the health insurance CEOs who are making my life unlivable.

I do think he's describing like the actual dynamic of a lot of Democratic voters that this issue has become a kind of shibboleth for a willingness to take on the establishment, the willing to take hard political positions. But at the same time, it's his choice of words there is interesting, right, because. [41:14] A Rorschach test is something [41:16] in which you see what reflects your view of it. Good point. Yeah. In order that and that the thing itself is a way of eliciting what your view might be. And I do think that's happening here too.

It's probably why I'm interested in what Rahm ultimately says, because I think Abdul is describing the reality of how... [41:36] this debate is unfolding, but that is in part because Joe Biden and Kamala Harris [41:42] left such a massive hole, both in terms of the policy and any kind of larger framework or message or story about what a [41:54] progressive defense of support for Israel might be. [41:57] Yeah, I mean, I think that for a lot of progressive voters in the in the US, especially young people, it's kind of just like a threshold question about your credibility.

If you can't look at what's happening in Gaza and say that's wrong and say we shouldn't be funding. [42:12] uh, a genocide or sending more weapon systems with that, with a blank check over to Israel. Um, then they don't believe you on anything else. I think the ROM speech is particularly interesting to me. I'm going to talk to him next week on Patsy of the World. Um, [42:26] Because Netanyahu has an election in October at the latest. I think he's going over there in part to kind of stir some shit up and signal to voters in advance of that election.

Like, hey, it's time to move on from Netanyahu. This guy is bad news. He does not. He's not serving interests. He's not going to help you in Washington anymore. We'll see if that works. I do think like looking, thinking back to the Biden kind of era. [42:49] Gaza's fights. I think there was a suggestion for a while that the campus activists were performative. [42:56] You know, the people out protesting like they just that was their thing of the month. Right. And I didn't think that was true then. And I don't think it's true now.

And I think that your views, again, on Gaza, have just become like a proxy for this much bigger threshold question about whether people believe you. And frankly, things have gotten worse since then because we had the war with Iran and all that Trump has, you know, done to make things worse there. And so, you know, that's where it's like all getting swept up. [43:26] And so I do think this is going to continue to be a huge issue in Democratic primaries in this cycle, but also in 28. [43:35] The ways in which I think pro-Israel Democrats or historically pro-Israel Democrats have been...

[43:42] I think really caught flat footed and surprised by the level of intensity and importance that this issue has now taken. And you have seen a lot of those Democrats shift, right? You had Bernie and Chris Murphy putting out putting up resolutions about cutting off military offensive military aid to Israel and the number of Democrats being willing to support that ticking up. But in the absence, I think, of a clear articulation of a. [44:05] view on Israel that is reflective of concedes the the substance of the I think valid moral critique of US support for Israel, especially military support for Israel and its conduct of the war in Gaza.

[44:20] But that... [44:21] talks about a position on settlements that talks about a position on the future of Gaza, two state solution, whether or not that is still something that is plausible, what it looks like to actually fight for something like that, what it looks like to hold Israel accountable, right? Like, it is true what Abdul says in that video that if you can't call is what Israel has done in Gaza a genocide, then you are failing this moral test. But there are no politicians right now saying something like, I believe Israel's conduct of the war is horrific.

I think that they've committed ethnic cleansing. There are genocidal members of administration, I will [44:51] We will make sure that the West Bank is safe for Palestinians and we will remove settlements as part of any deal. We will hold off any funding for Israel until it has withdrawn to the borders. Right. Like there is a full throated pro-Palestinian. [45:06] I [45:07] position that acknowledges Israel's right to exist and defend itself that I think could [45:12] uh reflect the values of duals talking about it but right now it just doesn't exist there's no one no one really espousing that position that i'm hearing yeah i think what what is broken recently is for a long time they were kind of like political and policy orthodoxies that were just kind of abided by in washington you know it's like there was there was seen as most politicians did not stray much uh beyond you know sort of like 40 yard lines of this debate and then when gaza started like a bunch of people just started asking why like why are we giving you know to their credit [45:42] like J Street and other groups were asking these questions earlier, but like people are just sort of wondering, why are we giving this country 3.3 billion a year in military support?

And then a bunch of additional funding after that. Why are we partnering with BB Netanyahu to launch this crazy war with Iran when it doesn't seem to serve our interests? Why are we, why does the U S Congress welcome in ICC indicted war criminals like Netanyahu and other, you know, Israeli political and military leaders. [46:12] Hassan Piker's, you know, Twitter, the Twitch stream. And why is a Democratic administration, two of them, supporting... [46:22] a government in which their leader comes to the S. and insults us and basically does politics for the Republican Party.

And you have AIPAC as an organization that has become completely sort of politicized and attacking Democrats who don't hew exactly to their line. Yeah, I mean, AIPAC primarily has started sort of intervening in Democratic primaries, attacking the more progressive candidate about issues that have nothing to do with Israel. And that's rubbing people the wrong way. [46:52] - I think there's a broader sort of waking up to the fact that [46:56] I... [46:57] At this moment, the two-state solution is just not realistic in any way. And I think a lot of times when politicians talk about, well, we need...

[47:05] peace talks and two states living side by side and bubble. Like it's just a way of like punting the question and having anything to say that they all know is complete bullshit because the West bank is getting chopped up every single day by more settlement construction. And, you know, after October 7th, uh, not, neither side has any faith in the process, uh, nor do they necessarily support a two state solution anymore. Um, that's all true and real. I think where, um, [47:27] My only advice to the more progressive candidates and people on the left is I do think one thing that has gotten lost from the conversation is any sense of empathy in a lot of these answers about the trauma that Israelis felt on October 7th or that Jews in America feel and fear they feel about anti-Semitism.

And I think that needs to be more a part of the conversation as we recalibrate these much harder policy issues. [47:57] that is not a concession to people. [48:01] is not admitting to something, right? Like compassion towards Israelis is not [48:06] to take anything away from Benjamin Netanyahu's evil conduct of the war. And as much as a two-state solution seems like something you just say to get out of the question, it's not like a one-state solution is very appealing either. [48:24] you know, it's been a morass for a very, very long time.

Like, you have to do both. Of course, I have enormous empathy for... [48:30] people in Gaza, the suffering, the Palestinian people, like having empathy for the Israelis who were hurt or or killed or kidnapped that day or the people who are scared by the events of October 7th. Like they're not mutually exclusive. We can do both. And I think it just it's gotten a little bit lost from the debate. And I'll just also say to like from the other side of it, like you can go back to Rabin. [48:50] describing the importance of a peace process, in part because you would get to the point we're at now, where people would stop being willing to accept a two-state solution and start demanding a one-state solution.

[49:00] When people criticize Mamdani because he gets the question, do you support the right of a Jewish state to exist and I support a state for equal rights to exist? Those circles can be squared. There can be a state with equal rights that has a Jewish majority, but that requires a Palestinian state, which requires a S. that is willing to put an extraordinary amount of pressure on Israel to remove settlements from the West Bank and make a two-state solution possible. [49:30] no longer a Jewish state in a region which there are a lot of Muslim states.

Or, you know, a state that is a de facto apartheid state with different laws for different people, different religions. Which is also unacceptable. [49:49] Pod Save America is brought to you by Sleep Me. When was the last time you went to bed before midnight without scrolling? Doomscrolling, the latest news cycle, keeps your brain buzzing. And worse, it raises your core body temperature. A body that's too warm cannot fall into a deep, restorative sleep. You're not just mentally exhausted. Your body never actually recovered from the day. The fix is simple. Lower your bed temperature.

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Okay. Uh, [50:52] But it's great. Visit me slash crooked. [50:56] to get up to $255 off your ChiliPad 2.0 with code CROOKED. That's me. That's [51:03] me slash crooked free shipping free returns and a 30 night trial so you can test it out dream big and wake up better the headlines will still be there in the morning you might as well wake up ready for them [51:17] Hey, so listen, whether you're in the States, across the pond or somewhere on the other side of the world, we love that you tune into Crooked for US News.

But did you know we also have a UK news show? Yes, that's right. It's called Pod Save the UK. Pod Save the UK is a no bullshit, unabashedly progressive conversation about politics focused on the issues that matter most to the people of Britain. With all the changes in our government, including the fun revolving door of prime ministers we have here, there's always lots to talk about. [51:47] to journalists, politicians, experts, comedians and activists. We've had great comedians on as well, like Rosie Jones, Stuart Lee, Aisling B. We've also had Tommy Vitor on, who may be our boss.

We still don't know. We're not quite clear on who our boss is. I thought it might be Tommy Vitor. I thought it might be Jon Favreau. [52:05] I don't know if it's John Lovett. It's hard to say. It's not clear to us who our bosses are. Some of our listeners call us irreverent but not stupid. I object to that. I'm deeply stupid. It doesn't sound too bad. So look, come check us out. Come join us. Pod Save the UK every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. [52:25] Speaking of shifting and amorphous borders, we haven't discussed on the show, but Mitch McConnell...

[52:33] has been absent from the Senate since he was hospitalized in mid-June. His staff and others have tried to downplay it. On July 1st, according to Dispatch Audio, reviewed by ABC News and other outlets, a person at Mitch McConnell's address was discovered unconscious in a cardiac arrest and EMTs performed CPR. This has led to rampant speculation that McConnell is somewhere in the twilight realm between life and death, where he will be held, and this is what the, I think the conspiracy is,