A Gutty Spurs Win, Angry Knicks Fans, Game 4 Thoughts, and NBA Draft Movements With Rob Mahoney and J. Kyle Mann

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[01:44] Bill Simmons Podcast live here on Netflix. Rob Mahoney is with me. We're coming off game three. [01:50] Spurs. Knicks wanted to mention [01:52] You can hear Rob on the Prestige TV podcast. You can hear him on the Ringer NBA show as well on group chat. [01:58] I have a new rewatchables that went up actually tonight. [02:01] It's from Hell Month, Rob, and we did Single Wave Female. [02:04] Not sure where you stand on that movie. I'm anti-single white female as a concept. You know, the impersonation into potential murder, I can't say I'm for it.

Well, we loved it, and we went over two hours talking about it. Okay, game three. [02:17] Which I think if the Knicks lost, we were going to dub the Trump game. And yet... [02:22] After watching what the Spurs did today, I got to say, I have no dog in this race. [02:29] I'm so impressed by the Spurs. I actually thought [02:32] that there was a real possibility they were going to do this today because there were so many good signs from the first two games. [02:38] It's a team with a lot of pride, a lot of chutzpah.

It's the second youngest finals team we've ever had. The first youngest finals team came back from 0-2 and won. [02:47] in the '77 finals. [02:49] They showed them in the huddle before the game, Rob. [02:53] And they seem loose. They're doing their dancing stuff. And it was like just unintimidated by the moment. Meanwhile, every single celebrity on the planet is there. [03:01] Even though this turned into a rock fight, [03:04] I was wildly impressed with them. So let's start there. What are your Spurs thoughts coming out of the gate? I also thought they could win this one.

I mean, games one and two were so tight. It was a classic case of this is the NBA Finals. So there are huge takeaways from very, very slim margins. [03:20] The turnover at the end of game two was catastrophic. Like that could have been a career altering play. It could still be a series altering play. We'll see how it all shakes out. But they were there that close to begin with. They were doing enough positively to be super competitive over the first two. And I thought in this one in particular came out.

[03:36] with a lot of clarity in their offensive game plan in terms of, like, the Knicks have been playing incredible defense, but even the best defensive game plans come at a cost. Like, you're giving up something somewhere. And you could see, I would say, with Castle and Fox specifically, they knew the weak side read before it even really sprang open. And so that gave me a lot of confidence. Like, okay, this team knows what they're doing. [03:57] The moment I shook up a little bit is that end of second quarter Knicks resurgence where I was like, oh, no.

Is it just going to be like this where New York scores at the end of every late clock opportunity where they have responses for every conceivable run? That's just who they've been in these playoffs. [04:14] Fortunately for the Spurs, they got, I mean, absolutely saved by a late Stefan Castle three and De'Aaron Fox going one on one against OG Ananobi, which is like playing tug of war with a Doberman. Like I want no part of that matchup or anything related to it. Yeah, it turned into a rock fight near the end.

[04:33] And I couldn't tell if it was the tension of the crowd or the [04:36] And the energy of the building and just how long the night was, you know, and everybody taking so long to get in there and every piece of that, how hard everyone was playing. But it felt like neither team. [04:47] could get any shot they were there. The Spurs were starting plays with six seconds left, 45 feet from the basket. You mentioned there were the... [04:57] I wrote down the castle lucky bailout three. It was in my notes.

That was after two San Antonio blacks, Brunson scores. [05:05] And it feels like, oh my God, this is, we've been here before with the Knicks and Brunson, I mean, Castle. [05:11] Bails them out there. And then Fox. So I texted you with eight minutes left. Mm-hmm. [05:16] And I asked him, do we see Fox again? Because he had come out. And they were playing Harper with Castle. I think they were playing Vassell and Champagny and Wemby. Yeah. And... [05:27] I was 50-50 whether we'd see Fox again. He wasn't, seemed like he, he just has lost confidence in his three.

[05:33] Um, [05:34] He wasn't really attacking the basket like he usually does. And I didn't know if we'd see him again, but we saw him again, and then he made the biggest shot of the game. [05:41] Never found confidence in the three, though. And for a moment, I thought the defining play of him coming back was that possession where he passed up an open three to drive into OG and fall over. And it was like, oh, like that was where you could feel some of the tension. You could feel some of the potential Spurs implosion.

[05:57] But not only did he come up with that huge shot, [05:59] He had like a possession saving block on Cat during that one, like Nick's possession that wouldn't end. And they kept maybe fouling, maybe blocking Cat. Who's to say? And then also I thought he had some really good drive and kick stuff for shots that just didn't fall. Like some of the cleanest looks the Spurs ended up getting down the stretch were triggered by De'Aaron Fox, of all people. [06:17] There's some weird Spurs coaching stuff still. [06:20] um that i don't really totally understand but the thing i love that they did today they staggered the timeouts i'm

[06:27] Almost positive Wemby didn't come out of the fourth quarter. [06:30] And there was, I think... [06:32] at least two challenges. [06:35] There was a timeout that he took right after a challenge. And I think he was just trying to use the timeouts so he never had to take Wemby out. [06:42] And that fourth quarter felt like it went on for 45 minutes. Wemby ended up finishing with the 32, 8, and 6 with the three blocks and – [06:50] I thought seemed pretty fresh. [06:52] Down the stretch. Now, the Knicks in the second half, I think they had at least 10 offensive rebounds.

[06:57] Because there was a, for the first hour of this game, each team only had one offensive rebound because everything was going in. And then it turned into more of a rock fight. And the Knicks started to really hurt them. But I thought Wemby seemed a lot more fresh [07:09] down the stretch. I still think fundamentally... [07:11] The fact that the Spurs had that pad... [07:15] They were always up 6, 8, [07:17] five, seven, ten, six, and... [07:20] So when their offense really went sideways, it was okay. I wonder what happens in a game four.

[07:26] if this is a two-point game with three minutes left. I still don't really know what the Spurs play is in that situation. Like, what do you see from them when it gets really slow down half-court, crowd standing, right? [07:37] What's their play? [07:39] Because we know what it is for the Knicks. I would say... [07:42] Some of the most successful stuff for them to just dial up has been like pretty simple, like staggered screens, Wemby and a second screener and Castle or Fox can come off of that action. And you'll see like multiple Knicks when that happens end up gravitating toward Wemby and then like Devin Vassell will be wide open in the corner on the wing.

So you can get like good action out of that. And frankly, I think it's like a little cleaner for them than some of the other stuff that they try to draw up. [08:12] victor webin yama and he got jammed up i this was not like the best cat game or the most sterling cat game but i thought he did as well challenging wendy's jumper like in this one that maybe from anyone i've ever seen defend victor webin yama how many possessions do we see wendy leave his feet and have to pass out to somebody because he couldn't get the shot off whoever cat and so they were able to jam him up in a way that i don't think you can just run iso for wendy or [08:42] that [08:42] Which is what happened at least three times down the stretch where it seemed like he just had the ball with 30 feet from the basket.

Yeah. [08:48] under 10 seconds left figured out. And I don't really think he's that kind of player. Castle, [08:54] You know, who, who, [08:55] was huge, who answered the usage rate critics, myself included, in the first half. He was like seven for eight, but he was attacking the basket. And I wrote that in my notes in the first half, like, [09:06] Sometimes this will happen with players when they're awesome early. This always used to be the Celtics with Marcus Smart. [09:11] If Marcus Smart was awesome in the first quarter, it's like, ah, are we going to pay for that later?

Maybe so. When he's taking 10 field goals in the fourth quarter because he was hot two hours ago. But Castle, I thought for the most part played... [09:24] played a much smarter game than I thought he played a game too. I still think he has the ball. [09:30] Just more than I want. [09:32] If I'm a Spurs fan, when you have these other two point guards that have great handles and are real point guards, but this is how they do it. Well, how do you want it to shake out then?

Because our confidence was wavering in De'Aaron Fox at points in this game. We were just talking about how you can't just give the ball to Victor Webinama 30 feet from the basket. I guess it's Dylan Harper by default that you want a little bit more of. [09:52] Who wasn't perfect today, even though I thought he swung the game in the second quarter. I thought in the second half he got a little agathese and had a couple reckless drives. I think he finished with 13, but his rebounding, I mean, he does so many good things.

I feel one of the things I noticed, I've noticed this when I used to play pickup. [10:11] when lefties guard other lefties, it's like they have the kryptonite for the other lefty because they know all the lefty moves. And I think when Harper... [10:20] When he defends Brunson, he just seems really comfortable on him. And I wonder if we're going to see that more. Because Castle has done a good job on him, too. But I... [10:29] How many minutes did Harper play today? To me, he has to be... So he was...

32. [10:35] And 32 seems to be where they've landed with him. [10:38] Um, [10:39] I'll be interested to see if they bump that at any point because they tried Carter Bryan out. He came out. [10:45] Guns blazing. He was guarding Cat, which I wanted to see. He made a three. And then all of a sudden turned into a human bowling ball. So he only played three minutes. The guns were always blazing with Carter Breyer. He really only has the one gear. [10:56] So Carnett played nine minutes minus three, which is really good for him, five rebounds.

And Keldon Johnson, they tried to get going. He was plus 14. He was at least being physical. But Harper is really, I think, the only bench guy they can trust. And then we didn't even mention this yet, and we should because I can just tell you from all the text fans I was getting from my Knick fan friends. [11:16] furious about the officiating. [11:19] Like asking me, knowing I'm a neutral observer, like, are you watching this? Are you seeing this? [11:25] I thought Wemby throwing Brunson down was bad. I couldn't believe they didn't call that.

It's worth mentioning that every time the Knicks challenge a call, it's in their favor because it was a bad call. [11:34] Um, so that's definitely happened. Um, [11:38] But for the most part, I... [11:39] thought it was pretty even. What did you think? [11:43] I thought this was yet another incredibly physical game. And if you're going to point at any game in the series where the Knicks got a raw deal officiating wise, I would say it's game two. This one other than the Wemby shove on Jalen Brunson, [11:56] I don't remember a ton of plays that were incredibly egregious.

I'm sure if we go back with the microscope that we can find some. But I thought a lot of people were being held and shoved and pushed basically at all times. That's just kind of the game it was. [12:09] My buddy, Jim Grady, who I've known since I was 15 years old, [12:12] NBA fucking sucks. The refs are doing everything in their power for the Spurs. Wemmy throwing elbows is annoying. [12:20] Just really like this was every Nick fan I know is sending me some bearish in the same thing. They did go to the penalty.

[12:25] Almost immediately in the fourth quarter. Yeah. Like there was one moment they had five fouls. [12:30] And the Spurs had zero. And if that had been the Celtics, I would have been losing their mind. But so much of that was frustration too. Like the Knicks, they came on the fourth quarter, [12:42] I mean, really, for most of the second half, their offense, everything was so difficult. The Spurs were picking up Brunson really high. They're making him work every step of the way. And you could just tell not even by Brunson shooting efficiency, which is fine, like his scoring was fine.

It's more about how many dribbles, how many moves, how much did it tax him just to create literally anything. And he has to do so much for the Knicks. [13:03] Yeah, when he came out, so that was... [13:06] They had a 42-point second quarter of the Knicks. But he comes out. [13:11] And it's 33-22 after the first quarter. [13:14] But Alvarado and Clarkson coming together, shift the energy, and it's a two-point game. And I thought they were... [13:20] really affected. And they got the crowd into it in a different way.

And as you said, really Brunson-centric, which is usually... [13:26] everybody's least favorite version of the Knicks. Not to blame him, but it was just a lot of dribbling. [13:32] The fourth quarter was different. [13:34] I didn't feel like it was as Brunson-centric. I just thought the Spurs played, I thought the level they went to defensively, [13:41] And if you're going to complain about the refs, I get it. I would do the same thing if it was the Celtics. But... [13:46] Just know that the reason the Spurs won that game was their defense was out of control in the second half.

I thought... [13:51] it went higher and higher and higher. And it was even like, [13:55] They were trapping towns with two guys, getting over to the corner guy, getting over to the corner pass to the other side. It was fucking crazy to watch. So... [14:04] I think that's fair, right? The defense won the game. Okay. Completely connected, completely on a string. [14:09] And I'll say this too for the Spurs. Like it's not a coincidence that Julian Champagne is not on the floor for critical stretches of the fourth quarter. He's like the closest thing that Jalen Brunson has to a target out there.

Yeah. I thought even he did fine. And really across the board, the Spurs in switches were so competitive and so physical with Brunson where, yeah, he's going to get his points and like, [14:31] Jalen Brunson has become one of the most inevitable scorers in the league. [14:35] But they did such a great job with the high pickup point, with the constant pressure, just wearing down, wearing down, not just him, but the flow of the offense. And the Knicks are better than pretty much anybody at continuing to find stuff late in the clock.

[14:47] But if you just make them pull rabbits out of the hat over and over and over, eventually they're going to come up empty. [14:53] Yeah, after the second quarter... [14:56] You have. [14:57] OG and Hart have 30 points combined. They're 10 for 12. Yep. [15:01] The Knicks are up seven. [15:03] And it felt like they only played well for like five minutes. [15:06] And I'm at halftime going, holy shit. Like, [15:09] this is going to be a sweep because there's, [15:11] Um, [15:12] I was talking to somebody today who mentioned the Spurs-Lakers 2001.

[15:17] where [15:18] First two games are in San Antonio, I think. [15:21] Yeah. [15:22] really close games. Spurs lost both of them. And then in the last two games, the Lakers just descended and pummeled them and kicked their ass. And the question is like, [15:31] Are we going this way? [15:32] Or we go and... [15:34] the [redacted address]. I did a thing on my pod yesterday about [15:39] When a series flips, [15:41] usually there's some sort of trigger for the flip. [15:44] What was the trigger tonight for you? What changed...

[15:48] Other than the Spurs just actually took care of business in the fourth quarter. Did you feel like something was different about the game? I think a lot of it was the Spurs offense. I think... [15:58] It wasn't constant. And I don't think the Spurs are going to be that kind of team in the series at any point. The Knicks defense is too good. The Spurs are still too young and a little bit imprecise. But... [16:08] I thought they did a great job... [16:09] really establishing and looking for and being patient with getting Wemby around the basket early.

[16:14] with being a little bit more deliberate as far as what the Knicks were giving up on the weak side, like we mentioned earlier. And then also, like, I... [16:21] There were just moments in this game where for the first time all series, it felt like the Knicks defense was actually behind in its rotation. Where the Spurs were getting ahead of it and you could tell the Knicks were just like a step or an entire rotation behind. And guys were getting pretty clean, wide open shots because of the Spurs ball movement.

That felt really new. And that's the kind of thing where sometimes over the course of a series, you just pick up on the patterns, right? Of like how teams are defending, how they're rotating, what they're giving up. I think the Spurs might be a little more in tune with that right now. [16:50] But even that stuff can change pretty quickly. [16:53] I agree with everything you said. I would add this. It felt like after playing this Nick style for two games, it was, [16:59] They did a much better job on the fast break transition stuff tonight.

[17:03] that, [17:04] They just were more ready for it. It felt like they were back. And it just felt like the Knicks, even though the game was more high-scoring, [17:10] It felt like the shots and the points the Knicks were getting were just... [17:14] kind of harder shots. Like, [17:16] like Ann and Obi and Hart, Hart, they were basically allowing a shoot. If I'm in the Spurs and I'm looking at that second half especially – [17:24] I thought they missed a lot of wide open shots. [17:26] I don't know what the...

What were they? 12 for 36 from... [17:30] 12 for 34 from three of the Spurs. [17:33] How many of those were contested? [17:35] Harper missed. I don't know how many threes did Harper take. He took... [17:41] one for eight, right? Fox was 0 for 5. So it's 13 threes. [17:46] I bet 12 of those were wide open. [17:49] And so McCasle's too They're giving all three of those guards A lot of room to fire if they want to [17:55] Yeah, so if I'm the Spurs, I'm like, dude, we won that game and we didn't even...

[17:59] hit all the open threes we had. We actually have a level to go higher than the level we played. If I'm the next, I'm looking at the officiating... [18:07] Um, [18:08] And... [18:09] Maybe from a Brunson standpoint, so he was 35 minutes, but how do I not put as much miles on him during a game? I mean, part of it was his fault because when Castle, when that play reviewed when he knocked Brunson over, which was not a flagrant. [18:23] But Brunson really tried to sell it. [18:26] And he kind of [18:28] almost hurt himself with the exaggerated flop.

Like he flew back so hard. He like landed on his tailbone. It's like, Oh my God, this could be our first semi flop injury. Not that Castle didn't fall. Um, but, uh, I think they have to figure that piece out. Let's talk about the, the crowd and the Trump stuff. Um, [18:46] So I knew a bunch of people out there. They said... [18:49] Definitely loud, crazy, especially end of the second quarter. [18:53] And then some quiet moments too. [18:57] There's a lot of people at that game that probably... [18:59] That might have been one of their few games of the year because of the prices.

[19:03] which I think we saw happen during the Warriors stretch as we hit the Curry era. That incredible old Warriors crowd would kind of shift and was still really good, but not as good. They went from the Oracle Warriors to the VC Warriors pretty quickly. Pretty quickly. Very different energy. Yeah. [19:19] Yeah, so the crowd seemed like it was good, but it wasn't. [19:23] I didn't think the Spurs were affected. And this was one of the things I said last night, like, [19:27] Um, [19:28] The OKC crowd is... [19:29] Where it's just.

[19:30] it's at this for three hours. Like, [19:33] you're not going to beat that from a loud standpoint. So atmosphere was great, but to me, the Spurs, even though they're young, answered the questions like, [19:41] We like it. We're fine. We're here. [19:43] And if anyone looked tense out of the gate, I would say it was the Knicks with some of the early turnovers. They took a minute to settle in, and they certainly did. But the Spurs didn't miss a beat. They seemed ready to compete. They seemed ready for it.

We're not daunted by... [19:56] you know, celebrity row, all the pageantry with President Trump there. Like, I got to say, getting booed so loudly mid-national anthem when they put Trump on the Jumbotron, I've never seen it before. Never seen that before. [20:09] I mean, God bless you, MSG. Come on. We're really doing it. So the Knicks fans in general... [20:16] I think felt like they were invincible after game two. And this was, [20:21] This was the unnatural act that could flip the game. [20:24] Not that Trump was going as much as the circus that comes with that and people having to get their...

[20:29] hours and hours for the game and [20:31] you know, just basically disrupting the entire process of a finals game, which is usually pretty chaotic. Anyway, we've both been to a bunch of finals, like, [20:41] It's abnormal. You have to get there super early. [20:44] Everything's tougher. [20:45] All the security stuff is way bigger, like, [20:49] the warmups, there's a million people on the court. It already feels like a circus. So that [20:53] Definitely added it. And I did wonder if that was going to affect the flow of the game.

[20:58] What it seemed like to me, which you said earlier, was like the Knicks, I don't think they seemed nervous, but they had so much adrenaline. They almost didn't look like the Knicks for like the first quarter. They just seemed kind of overcharged. And then they settled down. [21:13] But probably more out of character moments within this game for them than at any point in this series so far. And so if you're thinking that this could be a sea change moment for the Spurs, that would be the proof of it right there that you finally kind of rattled the seemingly unrattable team.

[21:28] Well, they know they have six guys they can trust. [21:32] They have figured out this Wemby timeout strategy to kind of keep them on the floor a little bit more when it actually matters. [21:38] They know they're getting wide open threes. [21:40] Um, [21:42] So I think they, now they're just going to compare. And they use, they did some stuff with Towns that I thought was different than what they did the first two games. Like they did use Castle on them. Yep. They tried Brian on them a couple of times.

They tried different people. Keldon. They trapped them. They, it's, [21:55] Seemed to me like they kept trying to mix things up on him so that he never felt really comfortable. The Bridges thing was huge for them, though, because he got the two fouls almost immediately, never got going, 28 minutes, two points. And that was their best, you know, their best shooter. [22:10] um which game was that game one or game two he had that one i think he was great he was great in game two though two as well though like playing with the bench and gave them some yeah a really critical lift in that one like they need mikhail bridges uh it's i know that's a pretty straightforward thing to say but particularly during those stretches where brunson and or towns are out he's one of their most reliable ball handlers it can't all be jose alvarado and somehow jordan clarkson like i i'm still right

[22:38] shocked that we got honest to goodness positive jordan clarkson minutes in the nba finals lebron james couldn't get that out of him in the finals yet here the knicks are uh i wouldn't bet on that happening again like they need mikhail in those stretches more than anything to be a ball handler to be a shooter to be a facilitator for their offense too [22:57] Two days from now, we're playing again. Wednesday. [23:01] Who does that help more? [23:04] Do you see a tilting advantage just based on that timeline? I feel like that's a pretty neutral one.

[23:10] The only thing I would say is the Wemby piece. [23:14] just from what we saw in the last series when there was the one-day rest between the games. [23:19] He had a couple games in that OKC series, which were just strange, where he just seemed... [23:24] Like he had concrete sneakers on. I... [23:27] I thought he was incredible. I mean, we probably should have talked about him earlier than just now. I thought he was really good. Yes. Like he was, because the Knicks now know not to challenge him on certain things.

So whatever, he had three blocks, but, [23:41] They're just so aware of him at all times. And I thought he was prowling. They really figured out a way to kind of unleash him all over the place. They were hiding him on different guys. [23:50] I think they learned their lesson with trying not to put them out [23:53] 25 feet from the basket on Towns too much. And then offensively, he was near the basket in the first three quarters way more than [24:00] than he used to be. So I thought he actually could have had even more than 32 points.

He missed. They had the three taken away. He missed a couple shots around. That easily could have been a 40-point game for him. [24:11] I think not only the timeout stuff you mentioned in terms of just finding ways to keep him on the floor for longer stretches, but finding ways to decrease how much he has to do all the time. [24:21] Turned out to be really important. Like you saw the Spurs mix in a little zone. You saw him like experiment, which is like what happens if we have win beyond Landry Shamit in the corner, Mikael Bridges in the corner, OG and an OB in the corner.

How do we keep him out of the action? And then on offense, how do we make it so that when he goes to set a screen, he doesn't have to go from the block all the way up to half court every single time to set a high ball screen because Stefan Castle is having a hard time getting it across the line or whatever. Like, [24:48] Those are little things, but when you pile them up over 40 minutes, all of a sudden you're fresher in the fourth quarter. All of a sudden he has more to give you down the stretch and he can be more assertive getting to the basket over and over and over because you make these other parts of his life a little bit easier.

[25:03] Brunson, [25:05] 83 points, 81 shots in three games. [25:09] It's pretty fucking good. [25:11] I did find myself a little surprised by Cat has been awesome. [25:17] But the prevalence of Carl Anthony Towns should be the finals MVP if the series ended today, coming off of one and two. I get it. I understand the logic. [25:26] I just don't know how we fall into it so soon. [25:29] After like the Andre Iguodala Steph stuff where it's like, [25:33] Do you reward the guy who drafts off the attention or do you reward the guy who creates the attention?

And Jalen Brunson draws... [25:40] everyone's eyes, everyone's focus when he's on the floor. He's scoring this much despite [25:46] being [25:47] Clearly the number one item in the scouting report and getting all of the defensive focus, but also the traps that we've seen throughout this series. I don't know how he does this, frankly, and I remain just shocked and amazed at how impressive he is night to night. [26:00] You were preaching... [26:01] To the choir. Rob Mahoney. I'm glad. On two topics. [26:06] One, the, [26:08] Look, I know we all have to make content.

We all have to... [26:11] come up with angles and do topics. [26:14] We cannot have segments about who's the finals MVP after two games. [26:19] In a game where you have to win four to win the series, not to mention... [26:24] the series might extend past four games. It's unacceptable. You could say, [26:29] Wow. [26:30] Towns is playing like a finals MVP, but you just can't do it. So that's one thing. Just stop. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to engage with it. Stop. [26:38] Second, [26:40] What you just said about Brunson and the Curry-Iguodala thing, [26:44] is one of my passion points in life.

[26:47] The best part should always win finals MVP unless something fucking crazy happened. Yeah. Right. If, [26:53] Like, Kari Agudal is a good example, and... [26:56] I think Curtis should have won it either way, but it's like, [27:00] Yeah. [27:01] All they're doing is worrying about him for six games. There's all these positive effects that just come from having this guy that's this good out there. [27:10] You have to be the MVP. I felt the same way about Tatum two years ago. Yeah. [27:14] Brown took it, but Tatum did the most on the Celtics.

He should have won finals MVP. He was the best guy in the deciding game. [27:21] and had the biggest responsibility. And for some, you know, the dumbest was when Parker won in '07. I think that one actually makes me madder than Iguodala. [27:30] where Duncan's just the best guy. He's the reason they won the title. He's the reason they've, [27:34] But Parker had a hot series against... [27:37] a crappy finals team that's like our finals MVP is Tony Parker. It's like Tim Duncan's the most important guy in the league. What are we doing?

That's probably some offense defense bias too with you know like the guard who's driving a lot of stuff naturally gets a lot of attention as those things go. So there's a lot in play with Tony Parker for sure. Yeah let's settle it now. [27:56] Brunson and Wemby are the two best guys in this series. And whoever wins, they should win the MVP. I mean, if I'm not mistaken, Carl Towns. I'm not trying to drag Cat through the mud. He's been amazing. Thought he was great defensively again today, despite Wemby getting some impressive numbers.

I don't think he has scored... [28:10] A basket in the fourth quarter for the entire series yet. [28:14] Is that true? He's certainly scoreless in the fourth tonight, and I believe he was in games one and two as well. [28:19] Thank you. [28:20] Well, ironically, finals MVP has not moved. Brunson and Wemby are the two favorites, Brunson's even. For the series itself. [28:27] The Knicks are now minus 184.00. [28:30] on [28:31] FanDuel. So... [28:34] Game four. [28:36] Wednesday night, which was going to be exciting either way. It was either going to be the classic somebody's up 2-1, [28:42] Game fours are always amazing.

[28:45] They're usually my favorite game of the series unless there's a game seven. So we either had the Knicks trying to win their first finals in 53 years, or we have this awesome setup. [28:57] for game four. If you had to guess the biggest tweak one of the two teams is going to make, what is it? [29:04] Because I'd probably be leaning toward the next side on the tweak. I don't know that we're going to see any dramatic tweaks, though. You think we're in? These are our cards? I think these are mostly the cards.

I think the lineups are going to remain the same. I think the coverages and the matchups are going to remain mostly the same. It's going to be little stuff, right? It's going to be like one little tweak in this game that I thought made a big difference was... [29:24] In the first quarter, especially when Wemby would go up to set ball screens, he would actually set a screen versus doing his little like I'm going to hold out my hands and sort of hip check you maneuver. And it turns out making contact on the screen really helps.

And then all of a sudden the guards are getting downhill and it's driving the entire offense. So there's going to be stuff like that, right? Like little things that pop on film. [29:44] In that regard, I would think for the Knicks specifically, it is how do you create some airspace for Cat during those stretches where the offense comes up? How do you make it so? I mean, this is what's hard when you want to give the ball to Towns and run all this off-ball action that's been working so well for the Knicks in these playoffs.

If the defense and the Spurs are good enough to do this can somehow batten down all the hatches and keep all those guys under wraps, you're just like bleeding clock as he stands there with the ball sometimes. [30:14] something popping up and you're not driving all of those possessions into 20 plus seconds on the shot clock. [30:21] Yeah, that makes sense. I would say... [30:23] Sham it. 23 minutes tonight was a minus 20. It was one for eight, one for seven from three. [30:29] Probably a quicker trigger for him next time would be, I was really surprised Bridges didn't play more in the fourth quarter.

[30:35] And I thought, I actually thought he had five fouls. Yeah. And I was texting with Nick's fan friend of mine who said he had five and I looked it up and he had four and he finished with four. But, uh, [30:45] I don't know. I think game four to me is a ride with our guys game. But this is all five of those guys are going to be at 40. [30:53] or around 40 minutes with, and then the bench will fill in the rest. But I think that's, that would be my prediction with that, especially two days off until the Saturday game.

I think it makes total sense to ride with your guys at this point. I would just argue that Landry Shaman is one of their guys. Like he's, he's a hero of New York. He's earned the right to be on the floor in these moments. And yeah, I wouldn't say this was his best game by any stretch, but, [31:15] They do need his gravity. They do need the attention that he draws. Mikhail can do a lot of those things too. And so if that's the trade-off, yeah, I agree. It can be a little steep sometimes.

[31:24] So what would you tell the Knicks fans right now who were up 2-0 in the finals? [31:29] coming off a miracle-winning game, too. [31:32] with an emotional game three that was the hardest ticket probably in the history of the NBA, I'm guessing. [31:38] Um, [31:39] And now it's 2-1. [31:41] And game... [31:42] for his [31:43] on Wednesday and [31:45] All those old skeletons are starting to get out of the poltergeist pool again. What would be? How would you calm them down? I would tell the Knicks, not that they need this reassurance, but in any game, I expect any close game, I expect them to win.

Like I expect Jalen Brunson to pull. [32:00] Every like crazy one footed fadeaway that he needs to make in order to keep these games competitive. OG and Anobi hit a crazy corner three to trim this thing to win a bowl eight. The Spurs needed both the castle jumper and the Fox jumper just to win this one. [32:14] Yes, the margins are thin. Yes, crazy things can happen under those circumstances. But every indicator says this is a very, very close clutch time kind of series. And the Knicks are the clutch time kings of these playoffs.

So what reason would we have to doubt them even after a game like this? [32:30] That's fair. And if I'm the Spurs, if I, my Spurs fans, I know a few of them too. Um, [32:36] The series should be one and a half to one and a half. [32:38] I don't think it works that way. Well, it doesn't. So you lost a half. You're down 2-1. Yeah. You were up double figures in all three games. [32:46] You had the lead in the last two minutes of all three games. Mm-hmm. [32:50] your young team...

[32:52] actually kind of came through with some big moments and ramped up the defense in a really, really special way in the second half and feels like it's getting better and is now used to the speed. [33:02] of the Knicks and the finals and just all of it. And it seems like, [33:06] just in a better place than they were in game one when they just seemed like, whoa, ho, ho. [33:12] The finals is fast. Wow. [33:14] Look at this. I thought they... [33:17] handled the speed the right way today.

So I'm this person like, fuck it, man. We have five and seven at home. [33:23] Right. We just need to get back to seven. So we just need to win two the next three and then sevens at our house. We just we need a two to all road wins going into a game five. Like that's all we can hope for. What if that's ever happened? [33:36] I guess that's happened in 77 because that's what... [33:39] Oh no! [33:40] Yeah, that's what happened in... [33:42] 77. [33:44] Portland won the... [33:46] Second to...

[33:47] Oh, no, that was important, though. Yeah, no, I don't think that's... [33:51] I don't think that would ever have happened. [33:53] Seems pretty unlikely. [33:55] I mean, there have been plenty of like 0-2 series that have flipped in reverse course in the NBA finals. Like Mikael Bridges has been a part of one of them. You know, the Mavs did it against the Heat in 0-6. They were up 2-0 and blew that series. So it's like it has happened. But usually you're home for the first part of the play. That's the thing.

It's the all-road wins for now three and potentially four games. But even that's getting ahead of ourselves. I've been saying this on playoffs, Rob. I don't think home court matters like it used to, even though it's fun to go to the games. [34:25] court, even Mariska Hargitay's home court. Even when you have Larry David sitting next to Bob Kraft and Ari Emanuel and Mark Shapiro, and then you have [34:36] You have Chalamet next to Spike Lee with Safdie. This was a real BS pod rewatchables murderer show. Tina Fey was there.

Yeah, there was. Incredible. Tina Fey's next to Tracy Morgan. I thought for sure we'd get Lorne Michaels tonight. [34:50] Maybe for game four. I saw Irving Azoff under the basket. It was like all the OGs. And then you... [34:56] Dolan, who I think usually watches from the stands... [35:00] But if Trump's like, [35:02] I'm coming. [35:04] it's, [35:05] The president. Yeah. [35:07] you kind of can't say no. So now he's in a suite and I'm sure he's like, Oh, I would have better luck if I was in my seats. But yeah, [35:15] Getting cupped in your own building to go sit with Donald Trump is tough.

It is tough. [35:21] But I think from the home court standpoint, I don't know what's different about it. I always felt like when I was growing up, and especially being a Celtics fan and some of the games we had, I just felt like if it was a must-win game, we were winning. Yeah. And we could affect the refs. [35:37] It just, you would have the momentum. It was just the way it went. And the stats back it up. Like for years and years, it was 90, 95%. And now we see all this time, you just go into somebody else's house and you can win whatever you want.

[35:49] I don't really understand it. [35:50] I don't know what is tilted other than clearly there's just like a lot of great competitive balance and talent around the league. But why that would explain the shift in home court advantage, I don't exactly know. Maybe it is just like travel has improved enough. Is it the three-pointers? I think the threes help. But this didn't feel like a game that was swung by Spurs hot shooting. It wasn't. You know? No, I'm just trying to think of all the different reasons that could swing.

Three-pointers would be one. Yep. The travel being so much better, you know, than it was in the 70s, 80s, and really through the 90s. [36:20] the fact that we know more about our bodies when you're on the road and things to do and not do and maybe don't have... [36:28] steak and fried chicken and cheeseburgers at 3.30 in the morning. We know that stuff. You think DoorDash has saved or has squashed Home Court Advantage? It's too reliable to get a Chipotle bowl now. You don't have to worry about the Michael Jordan stomach virus from pizza anymore.

Right. Well, you have that and then you have [36:49] When you think about the way all the shooting motions were different, [36:53] in the 70s and 80s, and the guy's doing this, and now everybody's off an assembly line with the way they shoot, right? That's true. [37:00] So the technique is more reliable than it used to be. I mean, the thing that almost killed the Spurs tonight were the free throws. Oh my gosh. And yet, [37:07] Down the stretch, they went 10 for 10. [37:09] And then Castle, I wish we had mentioned this earlier, [37:12] Um, [37:14] We've both been in the building when somebody has huge, huge free throws.

The most famous ones I ever... [37:18] remember from this was the two that Kawhi had during right before the Ray Allen shot. Oh, yeah. He missed the first one. He made the second one. [37:26] But sometimes when it's like you have to make both of them and you're on the road, it's [37:32] And the crowd can go to this level and it almost feels like they're invading the guy's body. It's so loud. [37:37] And when you're in there watching and you're like, [37:39] I don't understand how he's going to make these.

This is the most pressure I've ever seen anyone in my life. [37:45] And Caso, who they ran the play for, [37:47] they embedded the fox he threw her right back to castle that was their guy and he fucking drained him and it was awesome [37:53] I feel like we have mentioned a lot the shot that he hit to kind of like give the Spurs the winning cushion and maybe not enough about... [38:01] I mean, his physicality on these drives is unbelievable. And he's so elusive. Like, he's kind of constantly in a state of Eurostep as he gets to the basket.

Yeah, yeah. [38:10] always decelerating always kind of challenging you to stay down and not jump so he can bait you into a foul i just thought his drives were exceptional especially in the first half but late they needed him too like they needed somebody who could bust through even tough competitive perimeter defense and when the game is officiated this way stefan caskman absolutely do that like he will dish out as much punishment he will take and he will somehow convert a lot of those opportunities [38:35] He does this one move that I'm not positive I've ever seen anybody do consistently before.

When he goes right, he drives right into the chest. Mm-hmm. [38:42] And takes a step and usually you stop because there's a guy there. Yep. [38:46] But then he just takes this delayed second step [38:49] and just puts it up anyway, [38:51] And like one time they blocked it today, but there are other times when they just, [38:55] I don't know how he does it. [38:57] But he's just, you can't, he's almost like a running back who moves the line forward every time he goes into the line. [39:04] On those drives, he's never losing the contact.

He's always going... [39:08] Toward the basket. I thought he was great today. I was a little concerned about his 2011-12 range, Westbrook range. Kind of. He's got a little of that. A little like, I got this, guys. And it's like, no, no, not this time. But he was great today. And not just that I got this, guys, but he is good right now. He's playing tremendous defense on Brunson in particular on the ball. But really, really high-level stuff. And he'll come up with huge rebounds, huge hustle plays. He's doing all that.

[39:38] commit one of the dumbest fouls against a three-point shooter you have ever seen in your life. And so you just have to live with it, and you just have to accept that in the balance, [39:46] OG Ananobi is going to get three free throws, but you're going to get all this great defense and this great driving and this important scoring. He just does so much for them. [39:55] Yeah, it's like, [39:56] I feel the same way about my dog Murph. We were having a great day today. Yeah. Preparing. I was preparing for rewatchables tomorrow, taping, preparing for this pod.

It's a wonderful day. And then all of a sudden, he just walked right into the pool. [40:09] And it's like, why'd you do that? And he's like, I don't know. I don't know why I did it. But it was a special day and I didn't let it mar the day for me. There you go. [40:17] So, yeah, I think we hit everything. Prediction for game four? [40:22] Do we have to if we've just been wrong in this entire playoffs? I did not make an official prediction. I did bet on San Antonio today, but I had a Fandle bet, which I think I lost because I think Harper missed the steal.

[40:34] But I didn't, [40:36] I honestly had genuinely had no idea what was going to happen tonight. [40:40] There was... [40:41] like five different scenarios, and I would have believed all the scenarios, including San Antonio, just getting waxed. Yeah. [40:47] And... [40:48] At halftime, [40:50] I wasn't exactly racing to live bet the Spurs, right, down seven. It felt like the Knicks kind of had it. So – [40:57] So there'll be no Trump. It'll be a lot easier to get into. Yes. A lot less of a circus. And... [41:04] If I'm the Knicks, I'm hoping Wemby's a little more tired than he was today.

Could be. [41:09] If... [41:10] Forced to pick. [41:12] I think the Knicks will win game four. [41:14] uh, [41:15] I don't feel great about it. I think they will win game four. As someone who would love to see a 2-2 game five, I hope that's not the case, but... [41:22] I don't know. I have come to... [41:24] respect so much about the way New York answers basically any challenge and their resourcefulness in terms of their playmaking and the way that they will tap into like I just fully expect Mikko Bridges to come up with like 18 critical points in game four and Cat to be a really important playmaker again and Landry Shamit shooting to come back on track it's just kind of what they've done so if if I have to choose I think that's what's probably going to happen [41:48] But honestly, who can trust any of our predictions at this point?

[41:52] Do we pour one out? I'm not going to actually pour one on my desk for the next... [41:56] April 23rd was their last loss. It's now June 8th. [42:01] June 8th, 15th anniversary of the day we launched Grantland, by the way. Shout out to June 8th. Congrats. Thanks. [42:08] No longer exists, but it was a great site that I love very much. [42:12] But yeah, April 23rd to June 8th. [42:15] Legendary streak. [42:16] Here's, this is not a prediction. [42:21] But this is what I think will be the key to game for.

[42:24] I think that Spurs open threes are going to be even more open in game four. I think from what you've seen, [42:30] when you look at, [42:32] what do we have? We had, [42:34] Foxo for five, Castle two for five, Harper one for eight. [42:38] Kelton Johnson wouldn't shoot any of them. Champagne and Vessel were six for 11. [42:43] I just think they... [42:45] give those guards those threes and play off the ball, go away under the picks. And guys, we don't think you can make these, knock them down for us.

[42:54] And if the Spurs knock them down, they're going to go back 2-2. And if they don't knock them down, they're going to go down 3-1. Yeah. That is kind of the crunch when the Spurs do play their three guards together. And they seem to like closing that way, at least for part of the fourth quarter in crunch time, if not the entire time. It's good ball handling. A lot of ball handling. Yeah. [43:11] But if all three of those guards are not defended, and I would say at minimum, they're not defended in the way that Vassell and Champagny are.

The Knicks hug those shooters a little bit more than they do Fox and Harper and Castle. But having two of those guys off the ball, if you're going to play all three guards together, that's a lot of crunch. I don't think it's an accident that the Spurs, even though they have all that ball handling and they were able to make some things happen, also didn't have any real flow in terms of getting an actual downhill drive that then kicked out into something on a lot of those possessions. [43:40] And they were playing way off.

Harper was kind of in front of the Knicks bench down the stretch. They were just playing way off him, and they didn't really care if he shot, and they wanted to funnel him toward Towns. Anyway, Spurs only had eight turnovers and 28 assists. That's the one. I think the 16 turnovers in Game 2 – [43:56] All that driving, all of that play, like working through pressure, eight turnovers is... [44:01] just unbelievable stuff. Shout out to Steve Kerr, who loves nothing more than a lot of assists and low turnovers on a box score.

I'm sure he's going to look at this tomorrow and be like, wow, 28, mate. That's wonderful. I love it. But yeah, if they're going to have less than 10 turnovers, I'm going to, [44:18] Um, [44:19] And they're going to have 32 free throws. [44:22] You're probably going to send everyone. All right, Rob Mahoney, what TV show am I... [44:26] What TV show? Oh, Doc Rivers texted me and wanted to mention that they've [44:30] Finally pulled the Wendy on Josh Hart. Yeah. [44:33] that he was pushing for that Thalassers. What TV show should we watch between game three and game four?

Definitely Widow's Bay, which is great. Although it seems like you have more mixed impressions so far. I'm going to give it one more episode. I'm two in. You know what's starting right now, though, that definitely has my attention is this Cape Fear remake on Apple TV. Saw both. Saw both episodes. Oh, just you wait for three. Yeah. Things are getting very spicy, very interesting. If you like a little bit of trash in your TV, which Cape Fear certainly is, [45:03] I just think you're going to have a great sweaty Georgian time with it.

So come along for the ride for that. Well, we're doing From Hell Rewatchables right now. And the show does check some of my boxes. [45:13] Most importantly, the [45:15] really stupid [45:16] either father, mother, or both. [45:19] And in this case, both of them are really stupid and just seem oblivious to a lot of things that are happening, which I always enjoy. You got dumb. You got dumb parents. You got outright stalking. You have a lot of like ominous dead animals. I mean, what more could you ask? You've severed digits.

Yeah, it's good. And I would when I saw they were making it, I was like, ah, why? Why are we? Come on. Why? [45:40] But then Scorsese is an EP. Yeah. They got... [45:46] um anton chigurr the lead guy good to see him again he must have survived the car accident um but yeah no it was good i liked the first two episodes all right rob mahoney [45:55] This was a true pleasure and a privilege to stay up late with you after game three. We're going to take a break and we're going to come back with your friend Kyle Mann.

We're going to talk a little NBA draft right after this. [46:06] This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner. [46:10] of the NBA. [46:12] My favorite NBA Finals moment ever. Well, I have two. [46:15] One was when I was six years old and I went to the famous triple overtime game in 1976, Boston versus Phoenix that the Celtics won and became, I still think, the most famous NBA game of all time. It's either that or one of the Jordan games. [46:29] I like to claim it as the most famous since I was there.

But the other one was Game 5, 1984 Finals, 2-2, Lakers, Celtics, [46:37] And it is so hot in the Boston Garden. [46:40] that people are passing out in the stands, everyone's sweating all over the place, the Lakers are taking oxygen on the bench, and... [46:47] Larry Bird, unfazed. I think he had 35 points... [46:51] 20 rebounds was just awesome and won the game, gave them the 3-2 lead. They won in seven. And that is my favorite finals game ever. There's a lot of great moments. I was lucky to be there, by the way.

There's a lot of great moments on the court, but the best ones are served cold, just like Michelob Ultra right here. A superior light beer that's only 95 calories. Yeah, 95 calories. Even better. [47:13] They're getting people closer to the game with a chance to win tickets, custom merch, [47:17] and much more. Michelob Ultras appears worth playing for. Enter now. [47:21] at com slash courtside. [47:25] Michelob Ultra Quartzide 25-26, no purchase necessary, open to S. Residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2025, ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods, see official rules at

com slash Quartzide. [47:39] for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. [47:43] It's finally here, the NBA Finals. Spurs versus Knicks. Each game, I've been looking at the matchups and sharing my favorite picks from Fandle Sportsbook on my Twitter feed. [47:53] usually a same game parlay, usually tied to... [47:56] If you think one of the sides is going to win, here is what I think the roadmap would be. [48:01] We'll see. I definitely have 48 hours to think about what happened in Game 3 and how that might affect Game 4.

Stay tuned on Wednesday for the pick when I bet [48:11] I bet with FanDuel, a brand I trust, it's easy to build NBA bets. [48:15] An fendol. Superliprizi. [48:18] Easier each year. 2026, the easiest year it's ever been. I know I'm getting great odds, payouts on my parlays, boosts every day. [48:25] And I'll get my winnings instantly. Fan duel. [48:28] Play your game. [48:29] All right, J. Kyle, man, is here from the ringer. He is on the... [48:33] Ringer NBA show. He is one of the [48:36] Many good people that help with our Ringer NBA Draft Guide, which I love.

[48:41] We're two weeks away plus a day. Wow, man. [48:44] This is some draft. [48:46] I've changed my opinion on the order of the top four 17 times. [48:50] I have no idea who's going fifth or picking fifth. I have no idea what OKC is going to do with 12 and 17. [48:57] We have no idea if the Bucks are going to have 10 and 13 if they trade Giannis in time. [49:02] Um, [49:03] What what's the biggest up in the air subplot to you that's not one of the top four picks?

[49:09] Oh, I mean, yeah, you said you've changed yours at 17. I'm probably going to, if I can be shy of like 25 changes at the top, that'll be good. But aside from that, because I'm going to state some strong opinions that I have that might still change. [49:25] I think the biggest thing, and I think this is probably, you've been doing this longer than I have, but inevitably you start thinking about the playoff lens, specifically... [49:35] If you think of being in the NBA as a poker table where there's a buy-in, what does it cost to sit down at this table?

What does it take? I think that these playoffs, specifically if you just watch the Thunder and the Spurs and you imagine those teams are going to be around for... [49:51] How long some form of those teams dominated by these big guards, these incredible rangy bigs. [49:57] I think how this affects these guards at the top, because we have talked about this assumed order where we're like, well, you know, the next guys that you got to take. And you look at every mock draft, it's like you got to take one of those guards.

You have to do it. There's a gun to your head. And the more that I watch these playoffs and I see guys like Shea or Stephon Castle or Dylan Harper bulldozing every living, breathing human in front of him, I'm like, who is not going to get picked on is a question that I've asked myself a lot.