The Green River Killer - Gary Ridgway (Part 4)

[00:00] These long dog days of summer, I mean, we just made it through a heat wave. Mama was parched through this heat wave. I was hitting up Dunkin' every single day, and I will continue to probably for the rest of my days, but especially this summer. Dunkin' is helping everyone stay cool this summer with its lineup of refreshers. These drinks are packed with bold, fruity flavors and served ice cold. It's amazing. Dunkin' refreshers are the perfect afternoon pick-me-up. I like to [00:30] back for a second one because I'm just feeling crazy.

They come in a variety of delicious flavors, including fan favorites, mango pineapple and strawberry dragon fruit. And then for a limited time, there's black cherry and there's pink pineapple. I'm going to tell you something right now. And it's a bold claim, let me tell you, but I stand behind it. Pink pineapple will change your life. It is so good. It has me feeling like I'm sitting in a pool resort side, just living, [01:00] Try your favorite flavor with green tea, sparkling water, lemonade, or Dunkin's all-new Limeade. I haven't tried the Limeade yet, but I'm going to.

Usually I get my drinks made with green tea. And occasionally lemonade, but I do really like the green tea. Or, or, if you don't want to build your own, try one of Dunkin's curated refreshers, like the Cherry Lime Ricky or the Ultimate Pink Daydream. The Cherry Lime Ricky, mmm, scrumptious. I could drink like three of these a day. They're so freaking yummy. Head to Dunkin' today and find your favorite refresher. [01:30] Dunkin' Refreshers contain less than 1% fruit juice. Limited time offer. [01:36] When it comes to online college, Southern New Hampshire University is so good, it's scary.

Listen, the facts don't lie. SNHU has degree programs that fit your goals, online classes that fit your life, and real support at every step. And if that wasn't enough, they've got some of the lowest online tuition rates in the S. This is an airtight case, you guys. Visit edu slash morbid to get started. That's edu slash morbid. [02:04] Chilling crime cases are mysterious, but finding coverage shouldn't be. With the State Farm Personal Price Plan, you have options and can personalize your plan to help create an affordable price so you can get back to cracking all of life's bigger cases.

Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Head to com to get a quote. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the [02:34] availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. [02:41] Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. [02:59] I've been here before. We have been here before. And just right off the bat, [03:04] uh this i've decided to combine the last two episodes into one giant episode you're about to get the biggest episode of all time uh because i know sometimes you're like i just want to hear the like i want to know how this pans out and i want to see him caught because you guys know he gets caught i'm actually excited for myself because while i would have been down for either yeah i really want to hear about him getting caught because i hate him that's the thing so when i was going through this and i was [03:30] I was separating it out into the last two episodes.

I said, well, this episode, episode four, technically, is going to be a lot of more, you know, some more victims. And it's kind of going to be... [03:42] more of like a, you know, a bummer and like, and by the end of it, I was like, [03:47] I'm not given the payoff, which is like, get this fucker caught. And I was like, I feel like I don't want to leave you hanging over a whole weekend being like, I don't wait this long. She's thoughtful. It's my gift from me to you because it's going to be a long one because you can hear him get caught.

So I combined them. [04:02] So hopefully that is to your liking. I love that one. [04:06] And I know... [04:08] that the episodes have not been going up at the exact same time that they normally have recently. We have not switched schedules or anything like that. [04:19] And, you know, we've just had we one we've had some like stuff like private stuff that has been going on that like kind of took up a little bit of our time. Everything's OK. Everything's fine. But it took up some mental space and some time.

[04:38] time or giving you older episodes. [04:40] We wanted to give you these fresh episodes, but that meant that they had to come out a little later than expected, because on top of all that... [04:47] Mikey has moved to Canada. So we are having like a different production situation here that we're all kind of adjusting to now. [04:55] And so it was just like a whole bunch of things compounding on top of each other that made it so episodes had to come out instead of early in the morning on the day they come out.

It came out later that night. But they still came out on the same day. And... [05:08] This will not be a consistent thing going through. Like, we're not going to be releasing them later on in the day now. No, we're getting back to the OG. That wasn't like a... [05:18] It just kind of happened a couple of times. But yeah, from now on, it'll be the same that you've been used to for a while. What is it, Mondays and Thursdays? Yeah, which we've maintained just later in the day. Yeah. But now on, I think you guys usually get them at like 3

m. or something on those days. Yeah, I think they post at 3 m. like that day. We'll be going back to that kind of thing where it's earlier in the day. So when you're going off to work in the morning, you have it and all that. Because I know that that gets put into people's schedules, and we appreciate that we're part of your... [05:48] routine. Yeah, no, it's cool. So we appreciate that. And it'll stay like that. And if they do have to be later. [05:55] We'll let you guys know if something happens to come up.

We don't foresee that happening often at all. But you can't plan emergencies. Yeah, life happens. We honestly didn't know if you guys wanted to hear if they were going to be later in the day. We just didn't know if that was like. [06:10] annoying to hear. We never knew... [06:14] Is that annoying to hear that it's going to be later? Like, do you care? Is that like weird? But now we know you care. Yeah. And we appreciate that. No, it's cool again. Because again... [06:22] being part of your routine and part of your day.

[06:24] is pretty cool. I can't believe we're driving to work together right now. I'm glad we're driving to work together. So... [06:30] Now that we know you would like to be in the know. [06:32] We'll keep you in the know. Okay? We're all homies here, right? Exactly. So I'm glad we all had this discussion. It was good to talk to you. And, like, you know, one-on-one. And everything's okay over here. We've just, like... [06:42] There's just been a few things that popped up like privately that just were like, here's the thing.

Sitting in the ether. I'm going to go ahead and say it and my woo-woo people will feel me and my anti-woo-woos will be like, shut up, girl. Honestly, I'm on board with this. But you're half woo-woo. You're like a... I'm on board with this. Yeah. [06:59] This Mercury retrograde has been kicking us directly in the asshole. [07:05] Over and over again. Like dead recordings. Missing. Like machines just failing and dying. Lost documents. Poor communication with everyone in the world. And just like... [07:22] it's been bad but you know what [07:25] It's looking up.

Yeah. I've had appointments that I thought were going to be like one hour turn into like way longer. I've had. Well, Mercury's just been Mercurying. Yeah. Mercury is bullshit right now. But you know what? [07:37] We're getting through it. It's over, I think, July 23rd. So we're like... [07:42] We're nearing the end. Let's all hang in. There's only like a little over a week left. Hold hands. We're all going to be in this together. Don't touch my hands. Figurative hands. Yeah. Like figuratively for sure. Like through the thing. Yeah. She's like, nobody's touching you.

Yeah. I was going to say, I'm not touching anybody. So. And vice versa. And vice versa. [08:01] Yeah, I think I'm trying to think of anything else. Don't. Please just tell us the story. Just tell the story. Yeah. Not to be rude, but like, no, shut up. No business. I need to know. Tell me the goddamn story. Get into it. All right. You know what? No business. Buy the Butcher Legacy. Oh, no, no, no. That I'll let you. You were like, hey, I was going to plug my other really important project.

No, it's okay. You guys know. No, no, no. Buy the Butcher Legacy. Because we're, baby, we're going on tour soon. We are. We're going on a little book tour. [08:31] I don't know if you heard she's doing a live signing. Yeah. And somebody from in Maryland gave me a little message and said from one awkward introvert to another. I'm very excited to meet you in Maryland. And I said, I love that. That's the energy right there. I'm excited that I've been to Maryland before. Yeah, it'll be fun. I've been in a district of it.

I went there. I went there for a ghost concert. [08:54] Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it was great. [08:57] Wait, in Maryland? Yeah, Baltimore. [09:00] Oh, shit. You're right. Look at me questioning where you've been. I was going to, you look, you were like, I'm going to get you. I really thought so. I really did. No, I saw where. I was mad at you because we didn't get to the story. I saw Poe's grave. [09:09] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's fucking cool. Yeah. Remember that restaurant that we went to that in New York that.

[09:15] Poe used to write in or something? Or drink in the cellar? Yeah, he actually wasn't doing any business there. He was just drinking. Maybe he was writing. Just like fucked up shit. Maybe. Just, you know. [09:29] You never know. It's lunch. [09:30] who knows i don't know his life you do i don't know his life all right uh now can i let you to get it yeah now you can tell me all right let's go all right i just i have never listened to a pot about this story or about this case [09:43] like at all.

So I know like bits just from being like into true crime, but yeah, [09:49] This is one of the wildest cases we've ever covered. Oh, yeah. And just just wait until they get him. Yeah, I've been I've been because he's it's not like he's out here. [09:59] Just a quiet little church mouse not saying the worst things that somebody could possibly say. Really? Don't go into it thinking that. Because... [10:06] He's a diabolical little bitch. Oh, man. I mean, I had a feeling. I want to punch him right in his fucking face.

Is he alive still? He sure is. Let's punch him. Yeah. Honestly, let's go punch him. Can we get like a... [10:17] They should allow a line to line up and punch him in the face. Yeah. Every day. Only women. Yeah. Let women punch Gary Ridgeway. Yeah. 2026. Let's go. I needed a new slogan for this year. We'll make a sticker. Yeah. [10:31] As the investigation entered its fourth year in 1986, the task force was still no closer to finding out who was doing this. But with a killer so prolific, what they did have was...

[10:45] was... [10:46] Many more victims to discover. Yeah. They were not done yet. Not by a long shot. Oh, man. So on the night of September 12th, 1983, 19-year-old Tracy Winston had just bailed out of King County Jail in downtown Seattle. She was there on a loitering charge, and she was walking down Cherry Street when a cab driver that she knew pulled up beside her. [11:07] Tracy needed a ride to the place that she was staying in North Seattle and he asked this cab driver who she knew. [11:14] if he could drive her.

And he was like, yeah, totally. He's like, I just have a fare to pick up really quick. [11:19] I'm headed in the other direction. He said, I'll be back in 45 minutes. Stay here and I'll see that you get where you need to go safely. Very nice guy. Okay. By the time he came back, Tracy was gone. I had a feeling it was going to go that way. Yeah. Tracy's path that led to her disappearance was both like and not like many of the other victims. She'd grown up in a very stable, loving family with parents who adored her and whom she adored back.

[11:49] that a lot of teenagers do. There was also some complex family dynamics, absolutely nothing abusive or anything like that. [11:56] Just some stuff that families go through. We all have that. You know, from that point on, Tracy's relationship with her parents, especially her mother, Murdy, was like challenging. Okay. Yeah. [12:06] When she reached her late teens, Tracy... [12:09] Fell in love with an older boy whose own sister... [12:12] described him as a con man. Awesome. He was manipulative, emotionally abusive, and demanding. [12:20] And her mother recalled she would do anything he asked.

And she was gone all the time, anywhere but home, because he wouldn't let him call her. [12:27] What the hell? Yeah. Of course, the more Tracy's parents tried to keep them apart, the more it drove them together. Yep. One day she ran away and moved in with this older boy. Despite the family's very intense objections to this, it seemed there wasn't a lot they could do to convince her to come back home. Yeah. Yeah. [12:47] Again, must be the most helpless feeling in the entire world. I can't imagine. The last time the Winstons saw their daughter was Mother's Day, 1983.

Oh, that's awful. The visit was good. [12:58] But Tracy was careful with what she did and didn't tell her parents. Her mother said, I don't know if she was ever prostituting. I can't imagine that it was a regular thing for her. [13:09] On the night that Tracy was arrested for loitering, she called her parents from jail and told them what happened. But she also begged them not to come pick her up. [13:17] Because she said, I don't want you to see me in here. Not like this. Which... [13:22] That's heartbreaking in and of itself.

[13:25] When three months had passed without any word from Tracy, her mother reported her missing. [13:30] She said, I knew it was going to be bad. I wouldn't accept it in my heart, but I knew. [13:34] Yeah. She just like [13:37] She'd just gone out on her own and she was just kind of floating around. What Murty Winston didn't know was how long it would take before she would actually get answers to the mystery of her daughter's disappearance. [13:48] On March 27, 1986, Tracy's skeletal remains were discovered in Cottonwood Grove Park.

[13:54] Which is not far from the Green River. Okay. It appeared to investigators that the remains had been placed in the park, but animals had clearly scattered them around the area and the skull was missing. Oh. Although Tracy was on the task force list of missing women, her remains would go unidentified until 1999. Jesus. Yes. [14:14] And that was when DNA technology made it possible for investigators to conclusively identify her. [14:21] Weirdly, Tracy's skull remained missing, too, until the fall of 2005. [14:26] when a hiker found it in a wooded area off Highway 18 near Issaquah, southeast of Seattle.

[14:33] That's weird. This was also a place where Ted Bundy used to [14:37] Dumb. [14:38] victims. [14:39] Issaquah and I think like Taylor's Matt Taylor Mountain. Yeah. I believe it was. Yeah. [14:47] So is that animal scattering it that far? Or did they think he held on to it and disclosed of it? They don't know. That's the thing. So like the discovery of this skull so long after... [14:57] They had found all the other bits of the remains. Yeah. It is still kind of a mystery because there were no other bones found in the area or any indication of how it made its way there.

Yeah. [15:07] So, yeah. [15:08] Detective Tony McNabb told a reporter in 2005, our assumption is that a hiker or a hunter found and for whatever reason didn't want to call the police, found it and for whatever reason didn't want to call the police and set it alongside the dirt road so someone else could report it. It's quite some distance from any area where we found any other remains. [15:29] Even that's a strange explanation. And also the more I was sitting here thinking about it, it's like, [15:34] Why would animals move like animals obviously move bones while they're decomposing to get something?

And they usually move things that are easier to move, not a skull. Yeah. That's not easy for an animal to. There's not a lot that they can grip onto. Right. They usually pick up something they can pick up in their mouth. Yeah. That's that's weird. Right. That to me feels like he disposed of it later and kept it for some reason. That's the thing. I'm like, what happened there? [16:00] And he never said? No. He hasn't said what happened there. Weird. [16:05] Now, including Tracy Winston, only three victims were discovered in 1986, all in the spring.

[16:11] On May 2nd, a little over one month after Tracy's remains were found, an employee of Echo Glen Children's Center. [16:18] was searching around Highway 18 for a runaway teenager when they came upon various human bones that appeared as though they'd been sitting in the woods off the road for a bit of time. The remains turned out to be the incomplete skeleton of Maureen Feeney, a 19-year-old who went missing on September 23, 1983. [16:36] The autopsy revealed nothing of use to investigators, but... [16:40] Because of the circumstances, Maureen was added to the list as the 35th Green River victim.

My God. And it was because of the location of the discovery and because she's a female, quote unquote. Maureen Feeney turned out to be one of the atypical victims in that she wasn't involved in sex work or another type of employment that would have. [17:00] really put her as very accessible to the Green River Killer. That said, she had grown up with very low self-esteem and had struggled with some psychological stuff as a teenager, which might have made her a little more psychologically vulnerable to the advances of an older man.

Okay. In January 1983, Maureen got a job working with children at the Eastside Christian School, and she found a small in-law apartment just outside of Bellevue, Washington. Okay. [17:25] Through the job and, you know, her newfound independence, Maureen started flourish and even started socializing. Like her confidence was coming up. That's great. Going to clubs, you know, going on dates. Like having a time. Being young. Being 19. Yeah. Unfortunately, her life was disrupted in late summer when her landlord informed her that a relative was moving into the apartment. So she was going to have to leave.

Which is like crazy. [17:47] fucked up yeah that's kind of shitty yeah the movement she would also have to leave her job [17:53] Now, that August, she managed to find a new apartment in Seattle's Central District, and she found a new job at a daycare center nearby. Okay. She even started dating someone new and was considering moving in with her new boyfriend to California. Okay. Then on September 28th, just one week before her 20th birthday, Maureen disappeared. [18:12] When a few days passed and no one had heard from her, her parents reported her missing to the Seattle police.

But because she wasn't a fit for the Green River victim profile, she wasn't added to the missing list. [18:23] Three years later, her boyfriend came forward and told police that on the evening of September 28th, Maureen told him she was going out to 7-Eleven. [18:31] He told detectives, I fell asleep after she left and didn't wake up until about 11 that night. She never came back. [18:37] It's unclear why it took three years to report years to speak to police. But there's some reason to believe that he may have been pushing her into more risky behaviors to make money.

All right. But she had a job. Yeah. [18:54] Maybe he wanted. Maybe he didn't. [18:56] Okay. Just prior to her disappearance, Maureen's employer noticed, quote, a notable personality change. And she even went as far as to tell her boss that, quote, she wouldn't be needing a job for very long because she was coming into money. [19:11] Her boyfriend also told detectives he thought Maureen might have been looking for a new job since he'd found a newspaper wantad section with various exotic dancing jobs circled. [19:22] and the name Bob written in the margin of the page.

Huh. According to Maureen's mother, she was, quote, a proud girl and a proud individual who wanted to stand on her own, but she vehemently rejected the idea that her daughter would have considered sex work as a means of supporting herself. [19:38] Whatever the case, something had put Maureen in the path of the Green River Killer, and she had unfortunately met the same fate. [19:45] Now, a month later, in just a few miles from where Maureen's remains were discovered, another set of skeletal remains were found in the woods. [19:52] Using dental records collected by the task force, the ME was able to identify them as those of Kimberly Nelson, also known as Tina Nelson and Star Nelson.

[20:03] Kimberly grew up in Ann Arbor, but after dropping out of high school in the 11th grade, she made her way to Seattle. And by 1983, she was the sole financial support for her pimp slash boyfriend. Why are these men not going out to make money? It's always just some loser man here. It really is. Like, just fuck it. Get a job. In October 1983, Kimberly was picked up on a prostitution charge and served a short sentence in the King County Jail. [20:29] and was released on the afternoon of October 31st.

[20:33] The last person to see Kimberly was her friend Paige, who told police she saw Kimberly getting into a red pickup truck with a man, a white man with dark hair. [20:42] And she said Star wasn't afraid of anyone. She would get in a car with anyone. She was so confident she could take care of herself. That's so sad to think that. [20:52] That like was like a false confidence. You know that like she probably could take care of herself. But this fucker just there's some people that's an unstoppable force.

Exactly. Exactly. [21:01] Assuming Kimberly disappeared and was likely killed on October 31st, that meant she went missing less than a day after Missy Plager was disappeared. Wow. A few days later, Paige was working out by the strip when the man in the red truck pulled up beside her. [21:15] And I guess he said, didn't you hang with that tall blonde girl? [21:20] And she said the question felt very menacing. Yeah. She immediately was like freaked out by him. The man offered her money to get in the truck with him. But Paige said, no, thank you.

All set. She reported Kimberly missing and gave the description of the man to the police, which like, yeah, Paige. Good for her. That's kind of the thing I was wondering. And you and I talked about it off air. Just like. [21:41] he keeps going back to these similar spots. So it's like women are... [21:47] kind of catching on to you a bit here. But also on the same token, one, he's still doing it. And two, it shows what dire straits these women were in. Yeah. Because people were aware that there was a serial killer trolling these areas.

And they had to still put themselves at risk. But they had to do this job because they needed the money so desperately. And like, [22:07] To think of that desperation and then the end that they met is so heartbreaking. Because a lot of times they're also involved with these men slash pimps. [22:17] that, [22:19] make it so they don't have a choice. [22:20] It's not like they can just stop. These men are dangerous. They want their money. And you're going to go make that money. And they don't give a shit if you're going to get...

[22:29] you could possibly be in trouble. Because that's the thing that also needs to be pointed out is these pimps and these quote-unquote boyfriends, I hate to even call them that in certain cases, were also well aware that there's a serial killer operating in the area. And they don't give a shit. No. [22:44] How are you? It's crazy. [22:46] How are you that detached from a person? What's crazy, too, is as we'll find out, Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer. [22:55] He had access to several different cars at this point, which is why sometimes you'll hear a red pickup truck.

Sometimes you'll hear a blue one, a green one. [23:05] Sometimes his car would be broken down, so he'd use a family members, and they all match up. But always a truck. Yep. It's interesting, and I'm glad that you just said that, because I think in part one, I said, like, oh, a green pickup truck? And you were like, actually, no, a blue. And in my head, I was like, I thought he drove a green pickup truck. Don't worry. That's going to make a lot more sense later. Okay. Yeah. [23:25] Because you were...

[23:26] I'm not wrong. Could be both. Okay. So Paige had reported Kimberly missing and gave the man's description, but nothing came of it. [23:34] And the next time anyone saw Kimberly Nelson, she was little more than bones carelessly thrown in the woods by the side of the highway. That's so sad. More than a year passed without any new victims or discoveries of old ones. [23:46] Then on June 27, 1987, the task force was presented with both. [23:51] That afternoon, the remains of 17-year-old... [23:55] Cindy Smith, who worked as an exotic dancer.

[23:59] They were found in a wooded area just off Highway 18 in Auburn. Cindy lived on and off with her parents in a suburb of Tacoma, [24:07] But she frequently hitchhiked back and forth to any of the places she performed in the clubs. When she failed to return home on March 21st, 1984, they reported her missing and Cindy's name was added to the list. [24:20] If the date she went missing can serve as, you know, the same date as her death, that made Cindy Smith the most recent Green River victim, having been killed six weeks after the murder of Mary West.

Okay. Following the discovery of her remains, a full year passed before the next victim was discovered in the late spring of 1988. But this time, it wasn't a more recent victim, but a very early one. [24:44] Deborah Estes had just celebrated her birthday. [24:50] 15th. [24:51] birthday when she disappeared on September 20, 1982. [24:57] She had grown up pretty fast and had already run away from home several times by that point, each time worrying her mother sick. [25:04] One relative said many years later, life was a game to Debra. By July 1982, Debra had run away so many times that her parents had stopped reporting it, assuming...

[25:15] It was just no good. And she would eventually come back. I mean, it's awful. But like when you're young, you don't life is a game in a way, you know, like you just don't think of the consequences. Like I think about. [25:25] the shit i did at 15 my god yeah and that's and like them not reporting her each time she ran away is not to suggest that they didn't care no want her to return it was actually quite the opposite they were just out of ideas and exhausted well you have to think and i hate to say it but like they probably weren't treated great every single time they reported her i'm sure no because people didn't like the police didn't care about runaways back then no [25:49] So [25:50] So that summer, they learned that Debra was spending most of her time with an older friend, a girl named Becky, who had an apartment in the Rainier Vista housing project.

Sorry. They figured that if nothing else, Debra had a roof over her head and was likely safe. [26:04] They were unfortunately wrong. By the fall, Deborah had started dating an older man who turned out to be a pimp. [26:11] He and Debra began living out of motels, staying a few days until they ran out of money, then moving on. Remember, she's 15. Yeah, newly 15. Remember, she's 15. And this is a disgusting individual who's with her. That's a pedophile. The rooms were paid for with the money that Debra made through sex work.

[26:29] But that all came to an end when Debra went missing on September 20th. So she was being trafficked. Yeah. Let's call it what it is. Yeah, that's actually exactly what you should say. [26:38] When they hadn't heard from her in a few days, Deborah's parents reported her missing to the police. [26:43] They explained the situation and that they suspected she might be supporting herself and her boyfriend through sex work. [26:48] But each time the officers checked the reports, they found no arrest records for anyone with the name Debra Estes, not for prostitution or anything else.

They had no way of knowing that while Debra had no police record, 15-year-old Betty Lorraine Jones had been picked up for prostitution at least four times in recent months. Had anyone known that Debra and Betty Jones were the same person... [27:12] investigators would have at least known where to begin looking for the missing teenager. But things being what they were, there was no way for anyone to cross-reference the names or make any connection. Mm-hmm. [27:23] In a case full of nothing but tragedy and outrage, the story of Deborah Estes is perhaps...

[27:30] Among the most tragic. Just a few months before she went missing, Deborah had been picked up. This one, like, really is going to get you. [27:40] A few months before she went missing, Debra had been picked up on the strip by a white man driving a blue and white truck. [27:47] The man kidnapped Deborah at gunpoint and drove her out to the middle of the woods where he sexually assaulted the child and hit her in the face with his gun before tying her up and leaving her in the woods.

[27:59] She managed to untie herself and ran to the nearest house where the homeowners called the police. [28:05] When they took the report, Debra described the man and the truck and gave them the fake name she'd been using. [28:13] There's no way of knowing whether the first assault had been committed by the Green River killer. [28:17] But the description of the man in the truck is exactly him. [28:22] So they had to sit there now and say... [28:25] Had he let Deborah go only to come back and kill her? Get her again?

[28:31] Like, [28:32] Sounds like that might have been the case. Yeah, very much does. What the fuck? And months. Yeah. Like to let months go by. Just months. And also to think that her shitbag of a boyfriend, quote unquote, still knew that she went through that and just sent her right back to the streets to do it again. Yeah, he didn't care. [28:50] He wants his money. [28:51] Holy shit. [28:52] And, [28:54] I'll give you a little hint for the end here. [28:57] It's entirely possible that this happened and that Gary Ridgway didn't even know that she was the same person because he states himself that.

[29:05] he doesn't even remember half of these girls' faces. That's nice. And he said, I didn't know most of their names. And then at one point he says, like, I literally didn't care. I don't care about them. [29:15] Wow. Like that's his attitude later. [29:18] He's like, why the fuck would I care? [29:20] So it's entirely possible that he picked up Deborah, did this to her, and then happened to pick her up again and had no idea that he had done it. [29:29] Because I'm sure he's done this to other women and young girls.

Well, and then you have to wonder, like... [29:33] Did he change his appearance slightly? And was he driving a different vehicle? Yeah. That's why she trusted to get into it. Exactly. That's so. You don't know. Like, what are the fucking odds? Or did he kidnap her again? Yeah. Well, that's the thing. He kidnapped her in the first place. Right. [29:49] Now, Deborah's name was among the first to go on the task force list of missing women. And Dave Reichert and Faye Brooks spent weeks interviewing hundreds of people who might have come in contact with her around the time she went missing.

But it all amounted to nothing. [30:03] Her parents and friends had no information that the detectives could really use, and her pimp-slash-boyfriend denied anything. [30:12] anything like he didn't know anything about her disappearance or her sex work, telling the investigators, I warned her that being out on the streets was dangerous. [30:20] But you sent her out on the streets to make you money. Yeah, but he's not going to say that. Useless in every sense of the word. The mystery of Debra's disappearance was finally solved on May 30th, 1988, when a construction crew clearing a field near the Panther Lake Elementary School.

Jesus Christ. I don't know if you're noticing this, but suddenly he's dumping bodies near places where children are. Yeah, I have been noticing that. [30:42] he turned up something unexpected. Yeah. [30:45] A worker was digging postholes in the earth when he turned up what appeared to be a large rock. But when he reached down and pulled the object out of the hole, he realized it was in fact a human skull. [30:56] The discovery caused all the work in the area, obviously, to come to a stop, and the task force and a forensic team was brought out to remove the remains and search the area for any other victims.

[31:07] A few days later, just as he'd done a dozen of times before, [31:11] Bill Hagelin from the ME's office. Bill is working overtime. For real. He managed to identify the remains through dental records and they were those of Deborah Estes. That's so sad. Now, the last set of remains to be discovered in the 1980s were those of Andrea Childers, who went missing in 1983 at the age of 19. [31:30] Andrea had grown up in California but moved to Seattle in 1983 to live with her mother and her stepfather. Her grandmother recalled she wanted to be a dancer.

She gave lessons and she was very good. Andrea arrived in Washington on March 29th and just two weeks later she was gone. [31:47] The last time anyone saw her, she was waiting for a bus downtown. [31:51] So initially, Andrea's name was added to the task force list of missing women. But then about a year after she went missing, Canadian border authorities reported that someone with that name crossed the border into British Columbia. Oh, based on that, it was assumed that she was alive. So she was removed from the list. Turned out that it could have just been a double name.

[32:12] on October 11th, 1989... [32:15] Human bones were discovered out by the SeaTac airport, just a few hundred feet from where the remains of Constance, now own, and Kelly Ware's remains were discovered in 1983. [32:25] Using dental records, the remains were quickly identified as Andrea Childers. She'd likely been there the entire time the task force and search team combed the lot when the bodies were first discovered in 1983. [32:39] Task Force member Bob Evans said, we walked right over Andrea Childer's body where it was found. I mean, it just didn't even know.

We had experts, our top people, even bloodhounds. [32:49] That's crazy. [32:51] And they do believe that they missed it. Yeah, they think that she'd been there the whole time. [32:55] Interesting. Yeah. By 1990, signs that the killer was still active were becoming fewer and farther between. In the spring, when the weather got warmer, sex workers returned to the streets in larger numbers than before. [33:08] Because it kind of felt like the danger was gone again. Spokane Police Lieutenant Jim Hill said, that's disturbing because if this guy's still in town, and we have to assume he is.

[33:18] then there's no reason to think he won't hit again. [33:21] As one of the few remaining members of the task force, Hill was invested in the case and like the others... [33:26] He was determined to see it through to the end. [33:29] The problem was, after nearly a decade chasing the Green River killer, the task force was no closer to catching him than they ever had been. In fact, by that point in the investigation, there were nearly... [33:40] 600 possible suspects. Whoa. And none of them are really compelling. [33:47] How do you have 600 non-cooked?

Yeah. Also, it's that many... [33:51] Fuckers. Yeah, for real. Thank you. You're welcome. Yeah. [33:55] Hill said, we've had people we've paid a lot of attention to, but we wouldn't call them a suspect. [34:01] Music [34:11] Cravings aren't just about nicotine. They're about the habit, the hand-to-mouth motion, oral fixation, the momentary pause. When that loop is broken, cravings spike. Fume replaces your habit with a flavored air fidget device that gives your hands and mouth something to do, distracting cravings without nicotine, vapors, or batteries. Don't just try to quit. Upgrade the habit loop.

Reach for Fume instead. When you grab a journey pack, you'll also get a free gift just for using our code MORBID. [34:41] over 700,000 people take steps toward better habits, and now it's your turn. Use our code morbid to get a free gift with your journey pack. Head to com, that's com, and use code morbid to claim your free gift today. [34:57] Thank you. [34:58] This episode is brought to you by SoFi, the all-in-one finance app where you can bank, borrow, and invest all in one place. Let's talk about bank accounts for a second.

The average bank savings rate is 0.39% in interest. You're earning pennies on your savings and it doesn't have to be that way. But with SoFi's high yield checkings and savings, the money barely making moves sitting in your savings account can earn over eight times the [35:28] fees. We love transparency. You can get your paycheck up to two days early, plus get up to a $300 welcome bonus when you sign up with eligible direct deposit. Sign up for SoFi Checking and Savings at com slash morbid. SoFi Checking and Savings is offered through SoFi Bank and a member FDIC.

Terms apply. [35:48] Every good detective needs a partner to support them on important cases. Think of a state farm agent like your sidekick, there to help you along the way in your search for coverage. [35:58] State Farm can help you choose the coverage you need, whether it's for your home, car, boat, or even RV. With so many options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you, so you can get back to solving all of life's bigger cases. Go to com or use the award-winning app to connect with a local agent and get a quote.

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. [36:21] Music [36:27] Now, to make matters worse for the task force, the election of a new sheriff in King County, James Montgomery, brought a new pair of eyes on the budget and a new set of priorities. [36:38] In a statement to the press, Montgomery said he was, quote, not real encouraged about the case being resolved. [36:44] He said the longer the case languishes, the less likely we are to resolve it. [36:49] So his solution was to reassign several of the task force members to other duties with a plan to reassign them permanently as soon as possible.

[36:57] So we're just gonna get rid of the task force? Yeah, it's just reassigning a bunch of them. Gonna ignore the problem? And despite... [37:05] what feels like a defeat at this point the remaining because i'm sorry he's just like yeah we can't figure it out so we're gonna stop trying yeah why keep trying you know bro what yeah you'll see in the dialogue with the devil documentary on hulu that i've talked about like that talks about the ted i want to watch that uh bill kraski one of the task force members said they had asked for more money at one point and one of them looked at him and said and i quote

[37:30] Why? It's just a bunch of hookers, isn't it? [37:34] Bro. And Bill Kraske, and he was like, [37:36] Fuck you. [37:37] It's a bunch of women, children. He was like pissed. He was like that bothered me a lot. Like you're talking about 14, 15, 16 children. And young ass women. And he even said back to them, look, he said, yeah, my response was, well, yeah, and they're human beings, too. Yeah. Like, what the fuck? [37:56] Wow. Can you imagine just being that careless? So the task force members gave a shit.

It was people in the higher up positions that were the ones that were throwing up roadblocks. I mean, think about the years that the task force dedicated to this and then to be told. I can't imagine having worked on this case for years and years and years and then just being like, well, go do this now. Well, and a new sheriff coming in and being like, fuck that. [38:18] Like, I'd be like, fuck you. Yeah. What do you mean? You just get to take this position. But if you want to keep your job, you have no choice.

That's so fucked. Yeah. [38:26] But the remaining members vowed to continue to plug away at this case. They were not being deterred. It reminds me of True Detective. Yeah, it really does. Now, as spring turned to summer, the Green River Task Force, once 40 members strong... [38:39] was cut from four members down to two. [38:43] Two? [38:45] Dave Reichert and Faye Brooks. [38:47] I mean, bad bitches, but two? [38:51] You're leaving this massive case where we have over 30 women and children, let's be real, who are killed. [38:59] murdered [39:00] And you're leaving it up to two people to solve it.

[39:03] Which I have faith in those two people. That's not me saying I don't. Are you fucking kidding me? That was in the summer. [39:10] Then in September, you weren't even done yet. No. Then in September, they just disbanded it altogether. [39:18] What the fuck? Yeah. So where do we go from here? With the King County Council, the same one that told them, wasn't it just a bunch of hookers? [39:25] citing the significant cost and lack of progress. [39:29] Yeah, it costs money sometimes. You're not finding anything, so fuck it.

[39:33] Who cares about these women? [39:35] So with the task force now essentially defunct. Ridiculous. The cases were reassigned to the appropriate law enforcement agencies. And then just as everyone was starting to wonder whether the Green River Killer had indeed moved on and this was all... [39:49] Yeah, I guess we're just... [39:51] And I love that they were like, you know, maybe he moved on. Maybe that's it. And it's like, yeah, do you still want to investigate the women that are missing? Right. And are it done for them? Maybe, I don't know.

Like, we're just going to let him move on. Let it be someone else's problem. And there's been multiple times in this case where they're like, maybe he moved on and he didn't. So I think history tells us this motherfucker sticks around, unfortunately. [40:15] And just as they were doing that same thing, like just really... [40:19] Going with the pattern. Yeah. Saying maybe he moved on. A new body turned up. He said, I didn't. Yeah. In the late 1980s, Marta Reeves had hit a rough patch in her life and turned to cocaine as a means to cope with her depression.

Yeah. [40:32] In a short time, she developed a very expensive and very... [40:37] tough habit that soon began causing problems in her marriage. And by 1990, she was estranged from her husband and four children, living in a motel in Seattle's central area and supporting herself through sex work. [40:50] In early March, she called her husband and asked if he could send her some money, but he explained he didn't have any to spare. [40:57] And Marta said, okay, then I'll have to work all night. And that was the last time anyone heard from her.

Oh, man. In April, Marta's husband received an envelope in the mail, which just – [41:07] And it just had the local post office as a return address. And inside was her driver's license, which someone had probably, they thought, just picked up and dropped into the mail to return it, which is nice. Six months later, on September 20th, 1990, mushroom hunters walking in the woods near Highway 410 found skeletal remains and some rotting clothing. It took the Emmy several months to identify the bones, but in January 1991, they were identified as Marta Reeves.

[41:37] Bill Haglund, our poor Emmy, was unable to determine how she died, other than to say it had indeed been a violent death. Despite having been discovered in the same location as several other victims and the fact that she was kind of in the typical victim profile, Seattle police stated they didn't think she was a Green River victim. And that would remain the case for many more years. And why didn't they think that? I'm not really sure. [42:07] is it and you're like [42:09] Why? What about it is not that?

Also, can I ask a possibly dumb question? Probably not dumb. If the remains are skeletal, how could they tell that it's violent? [42:18] Like the manner of death. He could have told from like a broken bone. Yeah. Really like a broken bone, cut marks on a bone that can't be attributed to like... [42:28] an animal. In this case, I don't think there was cut marks on a bone. He wasn't using a blade. But if there was broken bones, [42:35] or, you know, bones out of place in that way. Okay. You know?

And it was like... [42:40] It's really hard to determine if it was a violent death that way, but he must have had some kind of indication. [42:47] It's not so unreasonable for local investigators to assume that Marta hadn't been a victim of the Green River Killer. [42:54] only because as far as they knew, [42:57] he hadn't claimed a new victim since 1984. So, so, [43:02] There were definitely other scenarios at this point. Like, it's not like, you know, they're never getting, because again, this was in 1991 that they found her.

Yes. That's quite a while. 1984 is when they last thought he claimed a victim. So it's not crazy and unreasonable to think like, [43:18] this does happen, unfortunately. Like, women are killed a lot. And so it's like... Especially in that area. Yeah. And so I don't... As much as we're, like, in an echo chamber right now of this case... [43:30] it's not unreasonable that like they wouldn't be at this point. Other cases have come and gone. Other people have been killed. Isolated cases have happened. Right. [43:38] So we can look at it and be like, why wouldn't they think that?

But it's like, I guess I can see it. That gives some clarity. Yeah, so he's like, you know, but... [43:46] Just because they didn't know about any victims after 1984, to be clear. [43:51] That doesn't mean there weren't any. Right. That's just the last one they knew about. Now, on the afternoon of February 7th, 1987, Roberta Hayes was released from King County Jail, where she was serving a short sentence for a prostitution charge. [44:05] It wasn't the first time, despite being just 21 years old. Roberta had been arrested several times in the past.

She'd had a difficult home life growing up, and by the time she was 18, she was supporting herself through sex work. [44:19] Her difficult history notwithstanding, she had made a pretty big effort to stay in touch with her family. And she could always be counted to show up for her family and to show up at her grandparents' house for birthdays and Christmas. Like she was with them. She was connected. Yeah. When they didn't hear from her for an extended period of time, they reported her missing. [44:39] For some reason, Roberta Hayes never made it onto the task force list of missing women, despite fitting the victim profile pretty much to a tee.

Regardless, at some point in February 1987, she crossed paths with the killer and met the same unfortunate fate as the others. On September 11th, 1991, Roberta's remains were discovered in the underbrush alongside Highway 410. [45:03] not far from where several other victims had been discovered in previous years. [45:07] As far as the medical examiner could tell, her body had been there since she disappeared, and she'd simply gone unnoticed, which is wild. That's awful, too. It would take almost two more years for them to make a positive ID. Yeah. [45:19] And that was in February 1993.

Yeah. Once again, despite the obvious connections to the Green River case in this one... [45:26] The local authorities declined to consider Roberta a Green River victim at the time. My thought on this whole thing is they know how many women are already on that list and have this has not been solved. They're already disbanding the task force. They're already doing all this shit. They're hesitant. They don't want to keep adding to this list of victims because then it gives them reason to. [45:46] public outcry reason to say, hey, how are you not solving this and more victims are being added to the list?

Right, like put more money towards this. So I do wonder if that had something to do with it. I wonder. I don't know. That's just me speculating. It's called being speculative. Exactly. Regardless of whether they considered Roberta Hayes a Green River victim, that's exactly what she was. And her death proved that. Rather than having stopped killing, the Green River killer had merely slowed down his activity, which was... [46:14] you know, a rare thing among serial killers. It's not like they do this all the time and it was a known pattern.

Yeah, yeah. [46:21] But not unheard of. I wonder if there's a reason for that. It turned out there was another victim between 1984 and 1987 that had yet to be found. [46:30] But [46:31] that was going to change. Patricia Barchak was 19 years old when she went missing in the fall of 1986. She didn't have a history of sex work, but when she disappeared on October 18th, 1986, she was, [46:45] She had just completed a culinary course and was on her way to her dream of becoming a pastry chef. Oh, my God.

[46:52] Anne Rule actually wrote later, like most girls her age, Patty could be a little bit gullible when it came to men. [46:59] According to Rule, just before Patty disappeared, she had been dating a man who told her he had a very successful and lucrative career. But she found out that he was at the very least exaggerating that a lot. Oh, man. Due to his wild exaggeration about his employment and possibly some other relationship stuff, she ended that relationship and took great pains to avoid seeing him. Which was like kind of a relatively difficult task because he always seemed to be hanging around.

[47:29] her mother reported her missing to the Seattle police. And despite not matching the victim profile, her name was added to the task force list. [47:38] As years went by and other victims were identified and moved from the missing list to the victim list, Paddy's would be one of the last names remaining, still there even after the task force was disbanded. Wow. [47:50] Now, on February 3rd, 1993, a survey crew found a human skull alongside Highway 18 in Auburn, just outside Seattle. Now, at first, the investigators suspected that the skull might belong to Tracy Winston, whose remains were found in March 1986 without a skull.

[48:07] But a few days later, the ME used dental records and they found that the remains were those of Patricia Barchak, whose name had recently been published along with the others remaining on the list. [48:18] Even though she had been on the list for so many years, the local authorities once again declined to identify Patty as a Green River victim. [48:26] Hmm. Police Captain Michael Nault told reports the killer selected sites where he could revisit and fantasize. This place is not like that at all. [48:37] And what he would also he also said that he was not convinced that this man would kill somebody who was not a sex worker.

[48:44] He already has. Or like implied that, but like. [48:47] he has he has so it's a little surprising that michael knell would have jumped to such a crazy conclusion here yeah and what does he mean like this is not that kind of place like where he would come back like the place where she was found was not somewhere i'm like where exactly is a place that you would come back to visit a dead body because i'm like dull he's going to all kinds of places yeah [49:10] Like what? [49:11] And it's even weirder because Nalt had been working on or adjacent to the Green River case for at least a decade.

[49:18] Interesting. And more than most, he definitely should have known that not all the killer's victims were sex workers. Right. And that... [49:26] They've been found in a lot of places that you wouldn't want to revisit, but... [49:31] But you're not a serial killer. Don't think in your brain. Think in his brain. Right. It's one of those. It's like we were talking about with... [49:38] what's the profiler's name? John Douglas. John Douglas. Like, [49:43] Sometimes these things are just a matter of opinion. Yeah. Like obviously very informed, educated opinion, but, but sometimes you're off.

Yeah. Well, and, [49:51] Whether he wanted to add Patty's name to the list or not, she was, in fact, a Green River killer victim. It seems like they just didn't want to say that he had come back. I think so, too. And especially now that they didn't have the budget for it. That's what I think, is they were trying to... And that's just me speculating. And that's my opinion! That's my opinion! Is that it seems like they were not...