David Sedaris is Mostly Bark, Some Bite

[00:00] *Music* [00:20] Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Lovett. I just wrapped a great conversation with the writer David Sedaris, who's out with a new collection of essays called The Land and Its People. We talked about his father's support for Trump, why no one cared when David was bit by a dog, what you can't talk about in a healthy relationship, Moby Dick, International McDonald's, the word queer, punching down, why he avoids pride parades, and what he fears most about getting old. [00:50] Oscar Katsuka and the legend himself, Bruce Valanche, plus many more guests.

Check out Love It or Leave It every Wednesday and Friday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. Now let's go to my conversation with David Sedaris. [01:05] David Sedaris, so nice to meet you. So nice to have you here. Oh, thanks so much for having me. Ten years ago. [01:11] After Trump won the first time, you wrote an essay for the Paris Review, [01:16] about arguing with your father. [01:19] over whether Trump is an asshole. [01:21] And then the next day, your dad says to you, so are you still talking to me?

[01:26] And I thought that was interesting because... [01:29] He didn't say, I'm not talking to you. He said, are you still talking to me? And I often feel like with, especially inside of a family, when you're arguing about Trump, [01:39] there's this understanding that whether it's admitted or not, [01:43] you know he's a bad person and there's something a little bit wrong with voting for him. And people are looking for some kind of... [01:49] forgiveness or lack of judgment, even though they know they did something wrong. And I'm wondering if you felt that [01:57] when you were talking to your father, other people in your life that voted for Trump.

[02:00] With my dad, it started really, he was like a Republican, like just wanted to keep more of his own money. And then he voted for Jesse Helms, which was a thing because Jesse Helms would grow up in Raleigh and he was on the. [02:15] He did editorials on the news. And even as a kid, you were like, wow, that guy's really severe. And then he ran for office. And it really – when he voted for Jesse Helms, it just became a different thing. [02:34] conservative radio came along and then he started listening to to rush limbaugh and then he fox news came along and so then he was just in it all the time he was in it in his car and he was in it at home and it was on all the time like a rage machine you know and then when he he moved into an assisted living when he was like 95 and he didn't know how to work the tv and he was like [02:58] For the first time, he wasn't being agitated every minute.

And toward the end of his life, he regretted. He told me he regretted voting for Trump. [03:08] which was interesting to me. [03:10] But I. [03:11] I have a friend in England who is a politician, and he and I pick up trash together, right? [03:19] When I first moved to the countryside in England, my boyfriend Hugh wrote a letter to the council saying, like, what's going on with all this trash on the side of the road? And they invited us to the clean and tidy advisory board, right, to a meeting.

So we met this guy who's a local politician, and he goes and picks up trash himself. And so I do it myself every day between four and six hours. And sometimes he comes with me, right? And he was a Tory, but now he's a reformer. [03:47] Right now is Nigel Farage. And he said, you're not going to want to talk to me anymore. And I said, no. [03:54] Oh, no, that's not the case at all. [03:57] You know, like I would never stop talking to him. [03:59] Over that. He answers any question I ask him.

You know, we don't. And I appreciate that. I'd like to know. [04:09] why he feels the way that he does. We've never raised our voices to each other. It's a [04:15] I think it's a great relationship. And when my dad was like, you're right, he... Well, I think part of it too... [04:23] I mean, my dad, North Carolina, you know, gay marriage was illegal in North Carolina. [04:29] They introduced like a resolution that would make it extra, extra, extra, extra illegal. And my dad was so happy to tell me he voted for that.

[04:39] So happy to tell me that. [04:42] And... [04:43] And I happened to be in North Carolina at that time. [04:46] and [04:48] you know, my sister-in-law, her sister is gay, and... [04:53] And I said, why shouldn't she be allowed to marry her husband? [04:58] girlfriend, it sends the wrong message. And I said, what message is that? And then he couldn't really answer. He'd heard the answer on the radio or on TV, but he couldn't quite remember [05:14] What was wrong with it, right? He couldn't quite recall those words. [05:20] Anyway, he's a dick, you know, just a complete dick.

And that was like the least of it. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't like he was a dick because of that. He was like a massive dick anyway, and then there was that. Right, right. No, for sure. But even like what you're saying about the person who said he went reform, like, oh, you're probably not going to want to talk to me. [05:44] for Mamdani, you're probably not going to want to talk to me. There's some kind of acknowledgement inside of it that [05:51] It's an act of... [05:53] like not sabotage, but like of...

[05:56] I'm so mad about everything, I'm going to do this, I'm going to vote for these terrible people, or I'm going to become extreme. My reasons are legitimate, which you don't appreciate, but I know on some level I'm doing something wrong. That to me is what I often hear from, and I feel that inside of, [06:15] when families are having these kinds of [06:17] And I'm wondering if that's what you felt from your dad, even though you felt like he was also – I felt it was more like that me being gay had something to do with it.

It would be like saying to a Jewish friend, I voted for the Nazi party. You're probably not going to want to talk to me. Whereas you would say to somebody who wasn't Jewish, you would say, yeah, I voted for the Nazi party. [06:38] And you wouldn't add, you're probably not going to want to talk to me because you can see... [06:42] how your vote is going to make this person's life [06:46] more miserable. Trevor Burrus: But I know towards the very end of his life, [06:52] your father did say, really acknowledge how [06:56] much success you had and kind of like what you had built.

But at the same time, like he's looking you in the eye and being like, yeah, I'm just voting for the thing that is going to make your life worse. And I'm just doing it because I have some of my friends from the radio. [07:10] Like, what is that? Like, is there any acknowledgement? Like, what do you think that was? Like, what, why couldn't he, why did he care more about what he was seeing on the television than he did about you? Oh, because it was all about money. Just money. I mean, yeah, ultimately it all came down to money.

I mean, if... [07:30] Oh, my goodness. If a candidate said, I'm going to bring back concentration camps, but I'm going to knock $2 off your taxes, my father would have voted for that person because he would save $2. [07:45] I mean, $2 was that important to him. It's not like he didn't have $2. [07:50] Ultimately, it was all about money. [07:56] you know, [07:56] about keeping more of his money. So in 19, I was looking at one of your older diaries and [08:03] In 1990, you and your dad and your brother Paul spent 18 hours in a pickup truck together driving from Illinois to North Carolina.

[08:11] And for someone who's now saying your father was a dick, [08:16] You also spent a lot of time together. My father and I, I don't know what we would talk about if we were in a car together for [redacted address]? I remember it clearly. Yeah, but if my father and I were in a car for 18 hours, then he just would have criticized me for 18 hours, but my brother was there. [08:34] And so that made it fun. [08:37] that my brother was there. But yeah, that was nice. I often think of that.

I was moving to New York City, so I was leaving Chicago and then I had some stuff I was going to bring to North Carolina. [08:47] And then I was going to go, I was going to paint a house. My father had rental property. And I was going to paint a house and then use that money to move to New York with. So we drove from Chicago to North Carolina. And I painted the house. And I don't know what the deal was, maybe that I was going to get $2,000 for painting the house.

Right? And I painted the house. And he said, I'll give you $500.00. [09:13] I mean everything about my father prepared me for Trump. Someone works for you and then you don't pay them or then you say I'll pay you a quarter of what you're going to pay me. You get a quarter or you get nothing. [09:26] He was always a dick. I mean, he might have driven me, you know, that was nice of him. But, I mean, it wasn't like he was just taking like a day's vacation from being a dick, you know.

[09:39] So now it's all these years later and you're telling the Wall Street Journal that you bought a $2,500 coat for your tour. So things have changed. Things have picked up for you. You're traveling around the world. [09:52] Talk to me about what international McDonald's has taught you, seeing McDonald's in other countries and what it teaches you about the world and about America. I don't – like I eat McDonald's once a year in the Dallas airport because I find myself at lunchtime in the Dallas airport at least once a year and there's really no other place to eat, right?

But when I go to other countries, I just love to see what McDonald's is often like the Grand Canyon burger. We don't have the Grand Canyon burger here. [10:22] I don't even know what would be on a Brooklyn burger. But you go to other countries and you see billboards. And so I always write it down. I don't know. I'm just – But you don't eat them. You just go – you don't try them. No, I don't eat them. I just – no, I just write them down and have them on – [10:36] my list of things that McDonald's offers in other countries.

Like I don't [10:41] I don't, [10:42] necessarily know what they've... [10:45] uh, [10:46] what they've got here. But I think if they had a Grand Canyon burger, I would have heard about it or I would have seen an ad for it. Yeah, they don't have that. [10:54] I go there all the time. When I was in Japan, when I was in Japan... [10:59] I was visiting a friend in Japan. It was 20 years ago. [11:03] And... [11:03] He spoke Japanese, so that was going to be helpful. And I don't speak any Japanese, but by the time I had landed, he'd gotten quite sick.

And so I was alone in Japan. And every once in a while, in a kind of feeling of overwhelm and panic, I would go to the McDonald's. But you don't even eat the McDonald's in the other countries. So for me, it's occasionally like a respite to be abroad and be like, you know what? I need to go into it. I just need 10 minutes to be inside of the comfort and warm blanket of McDonald's, including eating it. [11:33] and Burrow and the Serengeti as opposed to consuming the McDonald's. Yeah. In Tokyo, I observe it and then I go to Horeshanas Burger, freshness burger.

And that's how it's pronounced, Horeshanas Burger or Moss Burger. [11:48] They're great. They're Japanese chained and they're great. So you seem to be a little bit annoyed by the language of the left these days. And you acknowledge that part of this is that you're getting older and everything is starting to annoy you more and more, which I appreciate, though. I feel like maybe you've always had a little bit of like there's you've you've always had a kind of, I don't know, persnickety old man inside of you. And maybe now it's coming out.

But you do have an essay about punching down. [12:18] right now. [12:20] Is there anyone you'd like to punch down? That essay came from when I first moved to New York City. I didn't know anybody. And so there was a class at the Y called Writing Funny. And it was taught by this woman named Frida Garmes, who used to be a Saturday commentator on All Things Considered. [12:36] and really funny, this British woman. And I thought, oh gosh, there's not going to be any places left in the class because she's teaching.

And so I signed up for this class and I was the only one who knew who she was. And the first day she said, what are the rules for comedy writing? And I said, you should never make fun of anyone who has less power than you. And she said, where on earth did you get that idea from? She said, no, the only rule of comedy writing is that you [13:06] that ever since she told me. I thought that's a good rule. But who are we punching down at? Who are you punching down at these days?

Who's annoying you? No. I had something on CBS Sunday morning, not long ago. I was in Minneapolis airport and I went for lunch. It was this place where you had to seat yourself. [13:34] order yourself on the screen, pay, enter all your credit card information, and then it asked how much you wanted to tip. [13:41] And I thought, I've done everything here. What would I be tipping? And then I saw this woman come and set food in front of somebody. And I wrote, then I saw that she was an immigrant.

And I thought how my parents, my grandparents were immigrants, right? And then it went on from there. And the Board of Race and Culture at CBS wrote, [14:04] I was using my privilege to punch down and call someone an immigrant. [14:10] Thank you. [14:10] And I said, and then they gave me an opportunity to defend myself. And I said, immigrant is like a pharmacist. That's the word for it. You know, I'm an immigrant in the United Kingdom. I didn't say... [14:25] filthy immigrant. I didn't say, I just said immigrant. And how did I [14:30] know she was an immigrant?

Oh, I don't know. I mean, she was Ethiopian. [14:35] You know, and she had an accent. So I figured... [14:39] She must have emigrated to, but I wasn't criticizing her in any way. [14:44] And there's nothing wrong with the word immigrant. [14:49] And it sat on the shelf there for a year and a half before they aired it. [14:55] and [14:57] So to me, that's [14:58] I didn't understand even the charge, like... [15:02] That's not punching down on anybody. I just didn't... [15:06] Anyway, I was just completely mystified by that.

[15:11] And I find that that happens quite often with – [15:18] with [15:19] Writing lately. You know, like another... [15:22] circumstance, like we flag this because you used the word nanny. And it's like, yeah, I know people who are nannies and they identify as nannies and [15:33] It's not, I'm not [15:35] criticize. I'm not making fun of anyone. Again, it would be like if I said that Peter was a pharmacist. [15:50] Ponte of America is brought to you by Armra Colostrum. [15:53] When you prioritize your body's baseline, you're better equipped to show up with focus and energy, no matter what the day holds.

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[18:25] you know, [18:25] Good answer, good question. [18:27] com slash crooked. That's 60% of your first order plus free shipping and free treats for life. [18:33] When you head to com slash crooked. [18:38] It's clearly what you're getting at, right? Like there's, you know, that there are people that will say like, you know, it may be the case that one reason Trump is president is because people find the left annoying. And people say that's glib. And they'll say we have a lot bigger problems in the world than people being worried about words we use, right?

And that this is focusing on the wrong thing. And the right is hyping this all up. At the same time, though, there does seem to be something where, you know, you have a story in the book about what happened when you got bit by a dog. [19:05] wasn't on your side because of who owned the dog uh [19:09] And. [19:11] What you say in the essay is that people are worried that they will be perceived as not being empathetic enough. They'll be worried that they'll be perceived as being kind of Republican.

Can you just talk about that and what happened there? I was bitten by a dog and I was in Portland, Oregon. [19:26] And there were these three people smoking fentanyl. And they had two dogs. And I was walking down the street. And one of the dogs, both the dogs rushed forward. And one of them bit me. [19:36] and when I [19:38] told people about it, [19:40] I had a show that [19:42] show that night and I talked about it and a woman said, well, you know, people with an opioid use disorder lead incredibly difficult lives, you know, and they're in no position to take care of their animals.

That's the sad part. And I'm like... [19:57] Is it? [19:57] Is that the sad part? And then other people were like, what kind of a dog was it? But everybody acted. If I had said this tech bro. [20:09] had this [20:10] dog that bit me they'd be like oh those people I've had it have added up to here with those people but because they were smoking fentanyl people felt like if they said like oh that's awful then they [20:26] people might mistake them for a Republican. But since when did allowing dogs to bite people become a Democrat?

[20:33] point of principle. I just don't understand that. Well, it's [20:37] And it's the kind of thing, and the reason I think it's like, [20:41] this gets at something because [20:43] It's of course not a democratic point of principle and [20:48] I'm sure there's a subset of people who genuinely feel when you tell that story like, oh, this is not the issue. You're punching down or you're not being respectful enough of the challenges, etc. But I think most people would say, well, that's terrible and we have a real problem here and that shouldn't have happened.

And we need to address the ways in which people don't feel safe on the streets, whatever. And I sometimes feel – but I do think a lot of people are afraid to say – [21:17] they're afraid to voice like, [21:20] Right now in Los Angeles, we're about to have a mayor's race, right? And a lot of what the issue is around how LA has a big unhoused homeless population. [21:31] At the same time, there's a lot of people that will get angry at a Democratic politician for being, say, too aggressive at trying to clear homeless encampments.

Right. When I bet if you polled people, even Democrats, it would be a 70-30, 80-20 issue. But a loud vocal group of people online are there to tell you that you're being a fascist. [21:52] I wonder how many of the people telling you – people being afraid to tell you that they think it's terrible that that dog bit you are not saying what they really feel. They're afraid of some sort of like online mob or something. You need to get bitten by a dog. I mean it's shocking because like I told a guy in my New York building, I got bitten by a dog.

What did you do? And then other people say – I'm on your side. Am I not coming across as being on your side? [22:22] It! [22:23] Like people, I was shocked. Like, [22:30] "'Nobody said.' [22:32] Nobody said, oh, that's awful. You've been by a dog. Well, like two people did. But if you talk to 15 people, two of them would say, oh, that's awful. Was it like a stitches situation? How deep did this wound go? It broke the skin. Broke the skin. I went to the… [22:48] pharmacy and she told me to go to the emergency room.

And then I just thought that the people whose dog it was, they were just going to carry on with their day. And I was like, and then I'm going to spend all day in the emergency room. I decided I would rather die. [23:03] than do that, that I would literally rather die than go to the emergency room. [23:08] Another – I got a lot of letters about people who've been bitten by dogs. Like this one woman, she was sitting on the sofa at a friend's house, and she got up, and the dog – [23:18] bit the back of her neck and the owner had to come and pry its jaws open and said, I told you not to make any sudden movements.

[23:25] You scared him. [23:27] Like it's a dog thing and it's a – [23:33] drug addicts dog thing. It's both. And then I [23:39] I got a lot of letters from people, and this woman was walking after dark, and a man was following her, close behind her, and she stopped and turned around and said, can I help you? And he said, I'm homeless. I want money. And she said, I don't have any money on me. And she kept walking, and he kept following her. And she turned around and said, look, this is making me really uncomfortable.

And he said, I also take cash out. [24:05] And she said, I don't have cash app. And when she told people about it, they all said, you don't have cash app? As if that was the point of the story, right? Where again, if she had said it was a fraternity brother following her, that's outrageous to be following somebody after dark. But instead, they acted like the whole point of the story was that she didn't have cash app. It is my job to notice things like this. No, no, I'm glad you – well, it's – [24:35] The thing about it is that [24:37] I...

[24:39] I'm interested in this in part because... [24:42] you know, whatever people's morals around this are, and there'll be people that'll say like, oh, you know, David Sedaris, David Sedaris, he's becoming an old conservative, he's getting, you know, conservative in his old age. But if a political movement is not honest about how people actually feel, it's doomed to fail, right? Like we have, like, how do people like Spencer Pratt in LA or Donald Trump get purchased? They get purchased because you tell a bunch of people that, [25:11] that [25:12] uh, [25:13] Thank you.

[25:14] that they're wrong to feel a certain way and that the Democrats don't have a good answer for their [25:18] legitimate frustrations, then they'll go to people with bad answers. And so I do think sometimes, like, it's like acknowledging that, hey, like, there's something where we're not, we're being a little bit disrespectful for how people feel when they say get bitten by a dog or, or feel like things in their community don't feel safe. Now, it is pride. [25:37] Happy Pride. [25:38] Are you a pride guy? You go to the parades?

Not a pride guy. Not a pride guy. That's surprising to me. I'm not a parade person. You strike me as a parade person. You're a walker though. [25:47] Thank you. [25:47] You could walk a parade. That's a nice way to get in your steps, no? No, it's too slow. Too slow. I mean, I went to that – I went to a march. [25:58] What was that? The... [25:59] In New York, the No Kings thing. No Kings. [26:02] But you're walking like us. [26:04] you know, you're walking like a third of a mile per hour.

[26:09] So it's not the place to get steps in. [26:14] Is there anything gay you've done for Pride to celebrate Pride? [26:18] What's the gayest thing you think you've done this month? [26:21] the gayest thing I've done this month. [26:23] My luggage got lost, and so I had to go to the airport United desk. [26:31] in [26:33] in Denver, Colorado, and the guy said, if we open your suitcase, we find your suitcase and we open it, what is in there that will know it's yours? And I said, it's a Burberry dop kit.

I said, plaid, but it's not their iconic plaid. That was the gayest thing that I've done in years. What are you doing with a Burberry dop kit? Why do you need a Burberry brand dop kit? You know what? What is that doing for you? What happened to you? It is so pretty. Burberry dop kit? Oh, it's so pretty. [27:03] It doesn't. I don't really like their signature plaid. [27:06] But this was just so pretty. And I saw it in the window of the store in London. And then I went in and I said, oh, I love that dop kit in the window.

And they said, what? And then I said, okay, shaving kit in the window. And they said, that's not a shaving kit. That's just to carry things around in. But it's a shaving kit. I mean, you know, it has a handle on the side. It's it's. [27:30] waterproof on the inside. It's a shaving kit. Anyway, and I love it. [27:35] You know what? If I lost it, [27:37] That was when I thought about if I never got my luggage back. That's what I thought. I thought my shaving kit. [27:43] Do you remember when a Biden administration official who is non-binary was stealing luggage and then putting on the dresses they found inside of the luggage and then taking photographs of themselves in public places with the stolen clothes?

You should read that story. It was pretty exciting. The first non-binary Biden administration executive was stealing suitcases and then wearing the clothes from inside of the suitcases. And it was amazing. It was not a good look. It was fantastic. [28:11] Speaking of, now you struggle with the word queer and how the language around being gay has evolved. Have you heard from people on the road about this that call themselves queer from Gen Z that use different terms? Where are you at now? You got some backlash for what you said. [28:31] I love asking people about it.

I love it. And I find that generally it's a generational thing, right? Like a lot of times when I meet young women, I say, where do you stand on the word lesbian? [28:41] And a lot of them are just so insulted I even use that word. [28:46] They reject the word lesbian. [28:49] and they don't want to be put in a box. And I said, "Well, I'm still putting you in a box, but this one has [28:57] irritating person written on the side of it, you know. [29:01] And I find my problem with the word queer, I have two problems, right?

One, it doesn't tell me anything. [29:08] Right. And [29:10] Two, it's the third time in my life I've been rebranded. [29:15] And it just... It'll happen to you, too, when you get older. Like... [29:19] People keep changing your name and nobody ever asks you. No one ever asks your opinion. It's like, oh, you're this now. And then when people come up to me and say, oh, you're a queer writer. And it's like, no. [29:32] Ha. [29:33] No. [29:34] And again, it doesn't have anything to do with the word formally being an insult.

I appreciate that it's short. [29:43] But that's all that I really – [29:45] appreciate about it. But I love asking people about it. And usually the people [29:52] you know, younger people... [29:54] They like having their own word. [29:56] you know, this is a young word and so they feel like it reflects them. But I feel, I guess I don't know [30:04] And, you know, a woman came up to me and said, oh, you're a queer writer. She said, my daughter's queer. My 12-year-old daughter is queer. And I said, how?

And she said, she's asexual. I said, isn't that what you want in a 12-year-old? Yeah. [30:19] I mean, maybe she's just 12. [30:21] Yeah, well, that's an edge case. I remember when I was a speechwriter. [30:26] And I struggled with this because – [30:31] When I was growing up, [30:36] There was gay and there was straight and bisexual was a joke, right? If a girl was bisexual, she was really straight. If a guy was bisexual, he was really gay. And we didn't really talk about trans. We didn't talk about non-binary.

Gender wasn't really as much a part of it. [30:51] And when I became a speechwriter... [30:53] I remember watching as we would say, like, you know, we're proud to celebrate gay rights. And then... [30:59] Well, you can't just say gay rights. You have to say there's also... [31:03] trans people and then we started including in speeches LGBT. [31:08] I remember as a writer, [31:10] feeling [31:11] offended by LGBT because it felt so [31:16] Um, [31:17] mechanical. It felt so, it felt like it was from a manual about, you know, [31:23] gay rights.

It felt technical as opposed to, you know, we're so proud to have achieved so much for gays and lesbians or the gay community saying LGBT felt just lyric just felt it had a bad sound, right? Um, [31:37] And [31:38] So then you go to queer and that's meant to be a catch-all. But I had the same feeling that I think you have, like, "Wait, this word doesn't feel exactly right." [31:47] But I wonder how much of it, like, what is it about the word? [31:51] that doesn't feel, it's not just that it was a slur, right?

There's something where it's [31:57] It doesn't feel like it captures who I am. [32:02] And I wouldn't use it, but it is a useful word to have a catch-all. And I'm wondering if you've thought about, like, what is that feeling? That kind of... Because if it was just that it wasn't... [32:10] You have a bad feeling about the word. It's not just that it's not as good as gay. There's like you don't want it. So why? [32:16] Well, again, part of it too is that I just feel that it's unspecific.

It doesn't [32:23] tell me, often when I think of queer, I think of somebody who is in a heterosexual relationship, but is open to the idea of a three way and has a septum ring, you know. [32:37] And that's a thing. [32:39] Right. And so if that's your identity, you can be that's your queer. [32:44] Have it. [32:45] Please. [32:46] And I'll call you queer and everything, but I'm not. [32:49] I'm not clear. [32:51] So I'm gay. And [32:53] You can be queer and that's fine, but I don't... when the word queer is used on me by well-meaning people who think, "Well, that's the word now.

That's the word they like us to use," you know, that person, I cringe. [33:08] But again, when you said something earlier as a writer, okay? [33:14] I mean, as a writer... [33:17] Yeah, language is what I deal with, the tools that I work with. So when people say it's just a language thing, well, yeah, it's... [33:27] It's what I'm working with, right? Like The New Yorker. [33:32] Like I can't say prostitute and the New Yorker. [33:36] I have to say sex worker. [33:37] To me, a sex worker, like if you lost both your arms in an accident, a sex worker would come to your house and teach you how to pleasure yourself by rubbing against a doorframe.

That's a sex worker, right? For sure. Yeah, yeah. But then there's a prostitute. So I will never write about a prostitute in The New Yorker because I don't want to use the word sex worker. [33:58] I don't like the word. Right. You know? And... [34:02] And the same way, if I was in a situation and they said, well, you have to use the word queer, I would say, OK, well, I won't write anything for you or I won't write about that. [34:10] If I know I have to use that word, I don't want the word.

I don't want to use it. I don't like the way it sounds. I don't like I don't want to see it on paper. You know, I don't want to type it. [34:21] So, [34:22] And that's... I don't know that that has... [34:25] I don't know if that's an old thing, you know, just from being old or... [34:29] I mean there are – it's not like I – [34:33] any new word I don't want anything to do with. I mean, sometimes [34:38] Thank you. [34:39] Well, there are a lot of them.

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I'm Kelly Bowman, and I have been chasing the stories, meeting the people, and uncovering the little details that help you explore this place like a local. And the more time you spend here, you realize it's not just a beach. The shoreline is a launch pad for catching waves and watching rockets lift into space. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Cocoa Beach on Florida Space Coast, [36:59] And listen now. [37:05] The sex worker thing is interesting because here's what I worry about for me. Why am I reluctant? [37:10] And is it because...

[37:12] It's because... [37:13] I don't want to be associated. [37:15] with the style of writing... [37:17] that uses words like queer and sex worker, right? That if you're describing a sex worker, it is a kind of, there's a kind of, [37:24] Uh, uh... [37:25] performative obtuseness and kind of a performative... [37:32] progressivism that feels artificial. And so I am am I rebelling against that artificiality, not because the word itself, but because I don't like the way other people use it and the kind of writing and thinking it's associated with. [37:45] You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, exactly. [37:48] I [37:48] A sex worker... [37:50] took one college course. [37:52] is a prostitute who took one course in college. [37:55] I think if you went to the streets – [37:59] And you and someone was offering blowjobs. [38:02] And you say, what do you land me called? [38:05] I think... [38:06] I don't know how many people would say [38:09] sex worker. Yeah, sort of like how I would never make an ale leave. But maybe the thing to do would be to say to them, "What would you like to be addressing?

What would you like to be called?" Yeah. Well, as we went through a round of this when people were saying kind of Latinx, [38:20] Yeah. And it turned out, you know, that that's sort of a sort of an artificially producer of activism based word that wasn't really used outside of those spaces. And then kind of went through a cycle of how people were using that word. And then eventually we sort of were not using that word anymore. And it's OK, great. We're back to. [38:39] Latino, Latina. Well, I think about it sort of for me, right?

Because I identify I'm gay. But at the same time, [38:46] I became comfortable with that at a time when I didn't have another option, right? [38:51] I'm 43. I am married to a trans person. I... [38:57] I choose to call myself gay even though truthfully, the word queer probably more appropriately defines what I am. But I choose to be gay because I think being gay is a choice. [39:10] Nobody's going to take that away from me. [39:14] Like when I was – I remember the word gay coming into use, right?

The term was homosexual. [39:22] And so I remember the term gay. And maybe because I was... [39:26] 18 years old, [39:28] I thought, great, because it fit. [39:31] You know, and so maybe there were people who felt like [39:34] Gay was unspecific or, you know, they just didn't like the sound of it. [39:38] I mean homosexual I'm fine with. [39:41] It's just longer. [39:42] You know, like for some reason we just keep making words longer. [39:47] Um... [39:48] uh, [39:50] So again, anything one-sellable but [39:53] an LGBTQ and then it became QQIA and then it was a plus was added and I agree it was a lot well the this is where it's like it's about persuasion too which is like hey like if nobody who's not paying very close attention is going to master LGBTQ2 [40:10] IA+.

It's stupid. At some point, we're allowed to have aesthetic judgments. I'm sorry, but that's stupid. It is stupid to go around saying so many letters in a row and to keep adding new letters to it. It's just aesthetically unpleasing. We're allowed to have taste. [40:28] Right? [40:30] You couldn't blame people for making fun of LGBTQIA+. No, it's funny. It's funny. Yeah. Now, you've also been... [40:41] advocating for wearing skirts people that about how comfortable skirts are we are both people that have worn skirts at our live show and have uh become proponents of skirts what do you think men are afraid of with these skirts [40:52] You know, I don't want to be stared at.

[40:55] And I don't want to be... [40:57] A woman? [40:58] and I don't want to have breasts and I don't want to wear makeup. But a skirt just looks good. [41:05] I don't know, half the world wears skirts and they don't make any big deal about it. I mean, I went to Fiji and... [41:11] You know, all the guys are wearing skirts, and you go... [41:16] Gee, I mean, again, you go to the [41:20] Middle East and you see people and basically dresses. I remember I went to Morocco when I was in high school with my Spanish class.

And I bought, I don't know what it's called, but it's like a floor length robe, you know. [41:34] And I wore it to high school when I got back. And I remember thinking, I look good. [41:41] And just being made fun of like so roundly and just – I just remember thinking like why is it a big deal? Like why – it's got one hole instead of two. Really? And you're going to get that upset about it? But yeah, I have a bunch of skirts and I'm happy to – [42:00] Uh...

[42:01] I don't have mini skirts and stuff, but I have – usually they go to the floor or almost to the floor, and I just think they look great. [42:14] conservatives get upset about trans people [42:19] on some level, [42:21] what they're upset about is [42:24] the ways in which [42:26] they're holding on to these sort of traditional definitions of like the right way to be a man and how small a definition they want for that. [42:36] I think... [42:38] As someone that has been publicly gay... [42:41] since you were [42:43] writing, [42:44] so long ago.

You never really came out. You were just gay from the first moment I've heard of you. You were gay the whole time. You never came out. You never had your moment of going on television being like, I'm gay. [42:55] But at the same time, I was lucky enough to come around at a time. I can write about my relationship and – [43:02] People just, it's about trying to make a life with another person. [43:06] that the world could see that. The world wasn't like, oh, it's gay, never mind. It's not for me because he's gay.

And that was... [43:15] And you know what, if I'd done it 10 years earlier, then that would have been a completely different story. So I was just... [43:24] fortunate to come along, you know, that so much had happened before I got [43:29] I arrived, I suppose. [43:31] But the reason I bring it up is because it does seem like what's happening now. So – [43:36] Yeah. [43:38] being gay as a sort of an abstract identity, right? Like I'm a gay person. That means I date and want to marry someone of the same gender, whatever.

Uh, [43:46] It seems like the part that we're now grappling with is [43:49] everything around it like [43:51] wanting to wear skirts, being more feminine, right? And defying other aspects of what it means to be a true, like sort of masculine man. And [44:02] I know as I think about [44:05] what, when I was made fun of when I was a kid, right? Like I was called gay a million times. I [44:13] it was becoming okay to be gay, but it wasn't okay to be a mincing little queen, right? And it does seem like right now, [44:22] there's a real kind of pushback from the right about, [44:26] defying the gender norms.

They're okay with a Scott Besant being the Secretary of the Treasury, but they worry a lot about what happens if, say, a man shows up in makeup and a skirt. [44:38] I wonder how you think about that as somebody that has like sort of [44:42] been [44:43] publicly publicly [44:45] identified as gay for so long. [44:47] Well, I mean, I... [44:49] feel I remember [44:52] Ah... [44:53] When I was young, [44:55] And like I moved, I lived in San Francisco for one summer, right? And I remember it was like a pride parade there in San Francisco.

And it must have been. It was like summer of 1976 or something, right? But I remember there were drag queens at the beginning of the parade. And I remember... [45:13] being embarrassed, you know, and thinking, "Oh, I don't want people to think that that's what [45:18] gay people are like, right? [45:21] And now... [45:22] I just... [45:24] Now, I think... [45:25] The opposite. When I see somebody being like a massive, like, sissy or something, it just warms my heart, you know, and I'm just so happy that they just... [45:35] be in themselves.

And I can see how [45:38] you know, it can make someone uncomfortable because you're not sure [45:42] You know, like when I'm signing books, like you don't know sometimes. [45:47] you know, how you maybe should address somebody or if somebody gives you a book and then it's got, well, especially like a name like Zia on it, you know, and then – [45:59] Is that Zia? Is Zia somebody else? You know, so I always say... [46:04] Who's Zia? And then sometimes people are like, I am? And I say, well, I'm asking because it could be your cousin.

It could be, you know, it could be anyone. So I have a nice out that way that you don't necessarily have in day to day. [46:17] life. But I think it just makes people uncomfortable. Like, [46:20] If I'm wearing a skirt, I don't see any reason for anyone to call me [46:25] ma'am or she. It's just a skirt. I don't have any makeup on. I have a sport coat on. I guess I don't [46:34] care if they're uncomfortable i suppose that's a difference right but i do think part like i'm interested in like what is that discomfort right like you'll turn on fox news and there'll be somebody saying like you know real men don't sing happy birthday real men don't drink soup real men don't have straws right like constraining constraining what it means to be a man to this really really narrow box and i i wonder how much of that discomfort people feel in [46:59] is in the same way someone you know is understands that voting for trump might be wrong in some way that like [47:06] They're like, I spent a long time building this prison.

How dare you try to escape? This is where I live. I feel safe here. [47:15] Well, in a lot of ways, and I think a lot of people would be surprised by that, but I feel sorry for straight guys. [47:23] You know, I feel sorry that they're in their prison. And I feel sorry that sometimes I feel like they don't know how to talk to people. You know, like if you're listening in conversation on a plane and there are two guys in front of you who, you know, strangers who are talking.

I just... [47:38] I just feel bad. I feel bad that they don't [47:42] Again, their confines are so... [47:44] narrow [47:45] I remember realizing that I was at that age. [47:50] I was a worse friend to my straight friends, my straight male friends, because... [47:55] I was less effeminate and what came with being effeminate was being thoughtful, thoughtful, [48:01] you know, [48:01] like, [48:02] asking people about their debt. You know, like there's a way you are with... [48:08] There's a way... [48:09] gay men are that is more feminine. And part of it is just being, I don't know, thoughtful, considerate, sweet.

Right. And I was and I remember realizing like, oh, when I'm with my straight male friends, I act more like them and I'm much worse in basically every respect. Right. Like I would never think to be like, [48:26] Be like... [48:27] if I'm in that straight mode, you're kind of like, [48:31] You would never be like, so how's your mother doing? Is she getting better from her fall? You wouldn't say anything like that. It just doesn't come up in straight world. I was in an elevator and I was in Atlanta a few weeks ago.

I'm going down for breakfast and this guy gets on the elevator. I said, oh, I saw you on my plane last night. I said, I noticed your shoes. I said, yeah. [48:51] And that's such a thing that would be so scary, like to a straight guy, that you A, you remembered them and B, that you were looking at his shoes. What was the reaction? How did it go? [49:03] Well, he was wearing shoes without a back to them. So, of course, he was gay. Oh, right. So it all worked out.

Yeah. Sorry, I just ended up making sure you're talking to another gay man. [49:19] Positive America is brought to you by Chime. Chime is changing the way people bank. They offer the most rewarding, fee-free banking built for you. They're not like traditional old banks that charge you overdrafted monthly fees. They have thousands of fee-free ATMs. Because why pay to get your own money? Chime is built for you, not the 1%. Chime members can benefit from up to $1,150 in annual rewards, fee-free. Direct deposit unlocks the most rewarding way to bank at Chime.

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