The Jaylen Brown Colonoscopy Trade (and More NBA Summer Reactions) With Chris Ryan and Kirk Goldsberry

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[01:25] Save offers before you check out. [01:27] earn unlimited rewards. Plus, you can add those rewards on top of credit card points, [01:32] Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. [01:36] Save those offers, start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See com/rewardsterms/credit card points subject to issuers. [01:46] terms and conditions. [01:48] The Bill Simmons Podcast live on Netflix. [02:18] a rare morning podcast. Kurt Goldsberry and Chris Ryan are here. Wanted to mention we put up the last episode of [02:25] From hell on the rewatchables. We did, um, [02:28] Pacific Heights and I thought we had escaped from hell last month but apparently we did it because I have a story for you guys so I'm just gonna can you clear out for me [02:37] yeah maybe just play some play some bass as i talk to the audience um [02:44] So I didn't have a reaction pod to this Jalen Brown trade yesterday because I was getting a colonoscopy and it was supposed to be last week and I screwed up the prep.

[02:54] And the time they had was July 1st at 3, [03:00] Pacific time. [03:02] And if I didn't take that time, I would have gone July 15th. So I'm like, all right, you know what? Like I can do a Thursday pod. [03:09] I'm going to get knocked out. So I'm watching the World Cup game. [03:14] And then go in, had a very similar experience to UCR where the guy said, right as I'm about to get knocked out, he's like, where do you think LeBron's going? [03:24] I'm like, maybe Denver.

And then I'm out. [03:28] Wake up, and all I want to know is what happened with the World Cup game. And the guy's like, oh, they just had a penalty. There's a penalty kick. And actually saw the penalty kick and whatever. Come out. [03:40] My wife's waiting and picked me up. [03:42] And she goes, they traded Jalen Brown. I'm like, I had just woken up from anesthesia. And I'm not, as you guys know, not really coherent. And I'm like, where'd he go? She's like, to Philly for Paul George and two first round picks.

[03:59] And I'm like, I think I'm dead. [04:02] I think I died. [04:05] The anesthesia killed me and now I'm a dead person. And I'm like, and I'm just trying to process it. And I, it's, you know, it's like, I have a head injury and I'm like, [04:17] is there more are there more first round picks did they get the clippers first and she's like zoe's really upset so now my daughter who likes shayla brown and she [04:27] And I'm like, all right, can you read me what the trade is?

And she reads me the trade. [04:32] And then I stumble out of this... [04:35] Passport, pues. [04:36] So when this trade happened at 320 Pacific time, [04:42] I had a camera in my ass and I had Paul George being rammed up my ass. And that was happening at the same time. And that's how I'm going to remember July 1st, 2026. So we're driving home and I'm like, [04:54] I'm like, should I do an emergency pod? And my wife's like, no, you're like barely coherent. You probably start giving me your social security number.

[05:03] I would just be like, ah, blah, blah, blah. [05:06] So anyway, that's my story of finding out the trade. See, our story was a little more pleasant than mine. [05:12] Because he had just finished They Talked the Thrones pod with Van and Jomie. You tell the story. No, I had just finished recording with Joe and Mal, and Van and Jomie burst into the room. [05:22] And I was like, [05:23] It felt like LeBron, but I couldn't tell. And obviously, after a lot of guessing... [05:30] You did not guess Jalen Brown.

I did not guess him. Because I didn't expect us to go back to this well after Horford. I thought it was kind of omerta, but I guess I should have. [05:40] It's a big time for Browns getting treated between Boston and Philadelphia. Yeah, we passed back and forth 29-year-old Browns. And, yeah, I mean, it was very – in some ways, I feel like I'm still living in that moment because I'm processing it. It was also built like – [05:57] because you were under general anesthesia for a lot of it, one of the most intense sports days of my life.

[06:04] Because USA is coming up. Yeah, you realize after if you do 14 hours of watching sports and getting the. [06:11] the social media drip about it, like your brain is falling out of your ears by the end of the day. So I did England. I did most of Belgium, Senegal, [06:19] The incredible work that all of our colleagues did talking about making the Lakers white again. [06:25] And then USA and Jalen Brown hit in there. It's like I could barely, my brain was scrabbled eggs at a certain point. Kirk, I spent yesterday morning, I was so delighted by how bad the Lakers moves were.

[06:42] I was just torturing all the Laker fans in my life. I did not think the Celtics were going to trade Jalen Brown. I thought they had canvassed the league, not like what they saw. And they're like, you know what? Let's just walk in a room and we'll figure this out. There's not a trade for this. And we can talk for about a variety of reasons why there might not have been a trade for Jalen Brown. [07:03] But I was having such a great day. I was going to get this colonoscopy done.

I was going to watch the Team USA under anesthesia. And it was just... [07:12] Going to keep rolling. And I feel like I used up a lot of karma points with all the taunting texts I did to all my Laker fan friends yesterday because I thought what they did was hilarious. We'll talk about it way later. When did you find out about this Jalen Brown trade, Kirk? Oh, I have a boring story. I was sitting in a chair getting ready for soccer and a typical Shams notification washed across my screen.

And I did the thing where I was like, is this the real Shams? This doesn't make sense. So I had to verify. I didn't want to be [07:39] tricked [07:41] The most shocking part for me, Bill Simmons, is the fact that the Boston Celtics traded one of their best players to the Philadelphia 76ers. The historical part of that, as a kid who grew up in Pennsylvania watching Dr. J and Barkley and Moses Malone go against your favorite team in your childhood, [07:57] Like this is one of the great rivalries in the NBA.

And I was just shocked to see a player of his caliber get traded from, from Boston. [08:06] to Philly. And as I sat there, I was like, this is insane. Just because of the two franchises involved. And then the second reaction, of course, is like, [08:16] They didn't even get the best pick that Philly had. They got older and not younger somehow. And then you're just trying to. But it was, I had, of the three of us, I admittedly had the most generic experience finding out. He's being shy, Bill, because right after that, he went and got his own colonoscopy.

He just didn't. I mean, it was just in a bar in Maine, but he still got it. He got a homemade one. Back alley style. The Philly thing, I think it's the greatest robbery in the history of the league. [08:46] But you're just talking about [08:48] the finals where the Celtics just beat the Lakers every year. And then, you know, then they didn't play for a while. Then they played again in the eighties, a couple of times, they put in the 2000s, a couple of times. That's it. They haven't been in a series together in 16 years, Boston and Philly.

[09:01] Every decade, [09:02] have battled in some sort of way. They've had some sort of playoff series. When we did Celtic City, [09:07] which maybe we have to do a 10th episode now called Celtic City, the team is falling apart. We did a whole episode built around the 80s Celtics Philly, [09:17] Dr. J versus Bird, all that stuff back and forth. I can't even remember that many times, CR, when they've even made trades. [09:24] Like I remember we got Dana Barris. [09:27] from Philly as a free agent, but for the most part, this is certainly the biggest transaction ever between the two franchises.

I know there's obviously the Horford signing, but [09:39] This is the last time I remember anything like this was like getting Jim O'Brien to coach. It's seriously like you have to go back to like these weird. [09:49] these weird moments in history, because for the most part, the two cities and the two teams pretty much are, are like, this is shut off. It was funny, you know, like, [09:58] other friends like i because of the world cup i've been in touch with a bunch of of my buddies in england and they're like can you explain this to me in like premier league terms and i was like this would basically be like liverpool signing marcus rashford if he was coming off of a career year um it's really they it's really really complicated and for the sixers [10:18] You know, they've been star shopping for...

[10:22] Since the Jimmy Butler deal, since they decided to break away from the draft and develop model to collate some of those prospects and get... [10:30] get a star for Embiid. [10:31] So we've Butler... [10:33] Horford, Harden, what have you. [10:36] And then Paul George. Well, this is, and Paul George... [10:39] But this is the first time they've done it, and I think that the star that the Sixers were trying to compliment wasn't Embiid, it was Maxie. [10:47] I don't think this is a trade for Embiid. I think this is a trade for the younger core.

And I don't even think that Jalen Brown and Joel Embiid [10:55] pair that well together. I'm excited to be proven wrong, but like they both like mid range. They both like having the ball in their hands and kind of, [11:04] surveying the court, it's going to be really interesting to see how it works out in a basketball way. But this is a different kind of trade than the Sixers have made over the last couple of years. I don't think it's just for Embiid's purposes. [11:16] He pairs better with the speed of Maxi and Vijay.

The Embiid thing will be weird. All right. You got to clear out again because I'm going to walk you through my thoughts as this happen. First of all, how many hours has it been? It's been, I don't know, 17. [11:32] This is the most unpopular trade with Boston fans since Mookie Betts. [11:38] I still think Mookie Betts trumps it. Hold on a second. One sec. [11:43] Uh-oh. Okay. Go ahead. Oh, no. Go ahead. Oh, my God. CR. Why? You were saying Mookie Betts? Yeah. That was a lot of people. A more indefensible trade because there was no reason to do it.

They just didn't want to pay him, and then they gave him away for 10 cents on the dollar. This... [11:59] We can talk about some of the defenses I've heard. Everybody in my life... [12:04] Not only was there no warning whatsoever, not only was Jalen the centerpiece of a Giannis trade that seemed like it was going to happen, [12:12] a week ago on Monday. But this was, I think, the first Boston trade ever that came out of nowhere but then had everybody going... [12:22] wait, that's the trade? What else is in it?

Is there a part two and they're just... [12:28] There just wasn't. So you start thinking, how does Jalen go for half as much as... [12:34] mid-30s aspiration scandal Kawhi. Right? Your head goes there. [12:40] That's where your head goes. Kawhi hasn't won a playoff series in five years. [12:46] Kawhi with the Clippers won two playoff series in seven years and missed more games than just about anybody other than Embiid the last... [12:53] six right the last time we everyone's talking about oh kawaii now toronto this is the piece that can push them right kawaii lost the fucking first play-in game last year to the warriors the game i went to this is like the 2019 kawaii i just don't think is there anymore anyway so he goes for half as much as him [13:11] He goes, for less than Desmond Bain, [13:12] He goes, for less than Jaron Jackson, [13:15] He goes for less than Kevin Durant did last year when Phoenix needed to trade him.

They got the 10th pick and two movable contracts. Just note that his voice broke on Durant there, just if we're keeping score at home. He went for way less than Giannis. And then [13:29] During the same day, it went for less than Kessler, who played five games last year. That's a crazy one for me. He had 5,000 minutes last year. [13:38] But for Leslie Kessler. All right. So we have that. We have, I had, Michael Rubin had his white party yesterday in the Hamptons. I know you're invited, CR, you have to RSVP now.

I think it was at Lakers training camp, actually. [13:51] That was the other white party. [13:54] So apparently one of the Philly owners was there and I'm not going to say who. I got to take this shit off. Yeah. Take that Red Sox hat off. So one of the Philly owners was there and people were like, what's up with this Jalen trade? And he was just like, we couldn't believe it either. [14:07] Like basically saying, we can't believe we were able to get Jalen Brown for what we gave up. Kirk, I'll start here.

[14:14] Just on the trade itself, which is... [14:17] A 2020 first, that seems pretty good. [14:20] It's at least a Clippers pick. It might even be like a one through eight. [14:24] Philly pick [14:25] or 1-3 protected for the pick, but [14:28] What would it have cost Philly just to dump the last two years of Paul George's contract? It's somewhere between one first and two, correct? Yeah, it's funny you should ask. They were trying to do just that. I think before Daryl left, they were trying to do that. And the answer, from what I heard, was one, [14:47] solid first, the better first they have, I think.

[14:50] that wasn't included in this deal. So that's a team like Chicago or Brooklyn, a team that had cap space. Please take Paul George from us. We'll give you these picks to take them. It's a huge plot point here because once you start to do that sort of connective math, you start to say, okay, the Sixers won it out of the Paul George business, Paul George prison, or whatever you want to call it. And they were willing to attach a pick. So they were going to do this for whatever you could get back, right?

They were going to do this. And to get a finals [15:20] MVP votes this season. [15:22] for essentially that package, it really contextualized it. And I love what you did, too, because I was doing the same comparative math with the Kessler transaction and the Desmond Bain transaction. You're like, what is going on? What is going on with Jalen Brown's value around the league? Because it doesn't stand up to any [15:42] Anyway, I would have evaluated his value. I was shocked at the market value had dropped this low. But you're exactly right to call out.

The Sixers wanted to get off of Paul George in the first place. I see. I'm sure you... [15:56] were intrigued by the thought of getting rid of Paul George, regardless of who came back? I got no hate in my heart for him. I was incredibly disappointed by the suspension last year. And not out of any moral thing. It's just like, that was just like, we were actually, the Sixers were actually starting to put some stuff together when he got suspended. And to have that happen, which is sort of an elective absence on his part, even though we never really got the full story about it.

[16:23] on top of all of the load management that either the team and or he were doing for his various injuries, it was just kind of like, I'm tired of watching teams that are like, we're going to just try and make sure everybody's healthy for that second round series that we have. And it's like, oh, actually, you know what? Just give me a good NBA season. How about that? Well, you're going to get it from Jay Brown. I know, and he's going to play 70 games a year, and he's going to play 35 minutes a game, and he's going to show up night after night, and he's going to be a guy that, [16:53] when Embiid's not there, [16:55] can be 20 shots for you and play 38 minutes and play bigger or smaller.

[17:01] Here's my main question I want to ask you guys. [17:06] There's a new GM in Philly, Mike Gansey. [17:10] Yeah, good name. Well, he's president because Jameer Nelson is the GM. And then there's a new owner in Boston. And those differing sensibilities, I think, are worth bringing up. I was kind of joking when they put a camera on me and asked me what I thought of this yesterday. And I was like, this does not feel like Brad Stevens made this call. But I also saw Windhorst yesterday was like, this is a trade made under duress.

[17:34] And I just don't understand this. There's no reason why this has to happen on a Wednesday night. [17:39] There's no reason why this had to be the deal. I know that there had been reporting that the Celtics were not getting a lot of [17:47] what they wanted out of the trade market for Brown, but is there no... You were talking about going to Toscano's 48 hours ago. They're like, what? I wasn't going to go. I wanted my dad to go as a representative of the Simmons family. I just thought [18:01] Once the honest thing happens and it gets out.

[18:05] And then they don't get Giannis because they didn't want to put in extra stuff other than Jalen and two firsts, which I wholeheartedly agreed with. [18:12] Um, [18:13] And then they canvass the league. There's no trade. [18:16] The third year, I think, really hurts with Jalen because it's like 63 million or something. And they were obviously terrified of it. And it. [18:23] I think there's two ways to look at this. [18:26] Because I still have a whole – I want to go through my whole – [18:31] my stages of process in this trade.

[18:34] But there's two ways to look at it. One is the analytic stuff, which I want to talk about later. We can talk about that after the break. And the other is that they feel like, [18:43] this relationship, [18:45] was unsavageable and was going to get worse. [18:48] And, [18:49] - Okay, so why is that the case? Well, you have the 2024, the finals MVP Eastern Conference. If they just split those, [18:58] I wonder if this trade even happens. The fact that Jaylen wins both, that's a little weird. The Tatum-Brown thing starts to get a little strange.

[19:05] Tatum gets hurt. [19:06] a year later, that's a complete fluke, right? Jalen takes over the team, I've talked about it on the pod a bunch of times, where he has the car keys. [19:15] And had an awesome season. [19:17] that I've been watching advanced metrics pick it apart, which is fine. I still feel like wins is the most important advanced metric, and he showed up night after night and went against everybody else's best guy. [19:29] And was great. [19:31] And I, to me, [19:34] The fact that they were so desperate to trade him, [19:37] And by all accounts, last 72 hours, they seem like they were desperate.

Like, we got to, we got to, this has to come to a head right now. I don't feel like they could put the genie back in the bottle with him was the take. [19:49] that [19:49] we have now opened this door where this guy thinks he's the guy. He's going to come back. We have Hugo. We have Shireman. We have more Pritchard shots. We, we, [20:00] Don't want to be in a situation where this guy thinks he can average 29 points a game again. We have Tatum who can replace a lot of his stuff.

[20:07] And this is gonna get worse, not better. That's the only thing I can think of for the logic of this trade, because everybody's been asking me the last 17, 18 hours. It's not like they had to do this now. They could've waited till the season. They could've waited till February. [20:21] Whatever happened since the season ended, [20:24] Seems to have given them this additional urgency. And it's... [20:28] Maybe some of the things he said, both publicly and privately, um, [20:33] The fact that it wasn't a 1A, 1B thing anymore, like I think Jalen probably felt, maybe rightly so after last year, I'm equals with Tatum.

[20:42] And they just wanted to get out of this situation was my take. Does that make sense as a take, CR? [20:47] It makes sense. I mean, I like the timeline you built there because another element of it would be Tatum coming back. [20:55] which was supposed to be this heroic act of... [20:59] selflessness and [21:01] all that. And it almost seems like it just kind of threw everything out of balance. And I wonder if Tatum just says, I am out this year. I'm going to rehab. [21:09] And the Celtics have a kind of nobody believes in us, feel good, 56 wins.

We got to the second round. We didn't have enough for the Sixers or whoever they lose to. [21:19] Like, does this even happen? Is Jalen Brown like, well, and then next year we get Tatum back and we're going to be in great shape. The thing that I also go back to is Brad Stevens' postseason press conference where he was like, [21:32] we are not going to be playing this way next year. And he seemed way lower on the team. [21:37] than the NBA community at large. [21:40] where everybody, I think, was like, pretty cool.

You guys really... [21:43] You competed. And he was like, [21:45] this I did not like this yeah [21:47] And I guess now we know who he was talking about or what he was talking about because he was probably apparently more out on... [21:56] The two Jays and... [21:57] than everybody else and especially everybody else in Boston. And it's a bet on Jalen too that, [22:03] we can go into what the team will look like next year. But it's a bet that Jalen can replace all the... [22:08] I'm sorry, Jason Tatum can replace all the Jalen stats and the production and being the number one guy and then the team around him.

[22:17] will fit better than Jalen Brown being told. Go over here now. You're not the number one guy anymore. Kirk, you remember, so I've talked about this before on my pod. [22:26] When I was, the first year I was doing Countdown, when Rudy Gay got traded to Memphis. [22:32] And [22:32] It became a very important Sloan Conference moment. It became this specific tipping point in the old way we talked about basketball versus the new way. And I was on that show arguing with Magic Johnson, who knows more about basketball than me.

[22:48] and has had way more MBA experiences than me. And Will Bond, Jalen was kind of neutral. [22:53] And I was arguing, I actually think this trade makes a lot of sense for Rudy Gay. I think he's overrated. [22:59] Memphis, I think, turned him into Tayshaun Prince and [23:03] I forget, Grievous Vasquez, I forget who else was in it. But the team took off and they ended up making the conference finals because they determined whatever, even though Rudy Gay seems good on paper. And I remember Magic saying at one point, we're arguing about it.

[23:16] you need a guy, you need a closer, you need, and, [23:19] And I was trying to be respectful, but I was like, [23:23] The stats say he's not that good. All the advanced metrics say... [23:27] He's actually not a closer that you're actually, if he's your guy finishing games, this isn't great. And that's why they did the deal. [23:34] So that was this tipping point for that era. Now we're in this different era where, even though I voted Jalen fifth for MVP, I voted him first team on NBA, I thought what he did last year was incredible.

[23:43] There are all these like deep analytics now saying like, no, actually wasn't that good. So as somebody who's in the forefront of the small conference revolution, where do you stand on the analytics here? It's a great question. So the tension is Jalen Brown now represents this tension. He's going to be the person who gets associated with this. Is this guy, we have him in the in the ringer 100 bill is number 14 in the NBA after the season. [24:08] Estimated plus minus over at Dunks and Threes, one of the best sort of nerdy sites going right now.

[24:13] him [24:15] at 87th in the NBA, okay, according to estimated plus minus. So this is, don't shoot the messenger here. That's the tension. All these teams have these models. How impactful is this guy for winning? They measure all sorts of variables from player tracking, things we didn't have 15 years ago during that Rudy Gay era. But ultimately, these models hate Jalen Brown as a factor on winning. You can look at just basic on-off stuff. [24:41] The Celtics had a net rating of 6.5 with him on the floor, and that goes to 10.5 when he came out.

And the models just start... [24:48] stewing on these facts but with those models how much does that depend on did you have a really good bench well you know what i mean if your bench comes in and is cleaning the clock of the other team's bench then the on-off stuff's going to get skewed which i would always use as my defense for jalen and boston and and i want to come back to that bill because i do think the real reason here is depth and team building in the second apron era and i think brad stevens chris has pointed out [25:18] Because you need to have the Knicks first finals.

Those are deep ass teams with dudes who are playing seven, eight, nine, like Jose Alvarado. You need to have that kind of money. And if you have two guys making 35% of your cap in the second apron era, forget it's Jalen Brown or Jason Tatum. That's just a hard math problem for anybody to solve. And I think that's really at the heart of this thing. I don't think it's about advance plus minus or anything. [25:48] and go out and try to beat the Thunder and Spurs. Yeah, on top of that, two of the top nine contracts in the league just for figure by year.

[25:56] The next three? [25:58] And maybe, I don't know, maybe they thought that was unsustainable, but then... [26:02] The counter to that is, well, Paul George makes as much money as being a proud man. That's the head scratcher. That's the part that doesn't make sense to me. It's like, I get the financial thing, but yeah, you got out of it after one year, not two. [26:16] Um, yeah. [26:17] I don't know, CR, that the advanced analytics stuff... [26:22] And it's weird because I've always been, I think, even dating back to the Grantland days, I think we were at [26:27] we were part of the forefront of everything that was changing there.

And I still believe in the numbers a lot of the time, but I still feel like there's something about durability [26:37] and somebody who shows up night after night and can be the best guy in a team over and over again and accept that challenge. [26:43] The issue is... He won an NBA title two years ago. And they won an NBA title two years ago. I don't know really. What are we playing for, right? I know. Look, I'm also somebody who's my favorite basketball player ever is Allen Iverson, who is also not beloved by the advanced analytics community.

I cannot claim to really understand a lot of this stuff at a certain point. [27:02] Um, I think that this is also as much as it's an analytics story, it's a media story to me. The turning point in some ways in the story publicly, I'm sure privately was much different, was this Bobby Marks tweet that went out about an analytics guy, unnamed analytics guy telling him that Jalen Brown would be like the seventh best player on our team, not like on a in the league. And that really got the ball rolling in terms of this.

[27:29] The way it coming to the forefront again, this is all going to kind of die down once all the smoke clears. But this has just been a fascinating couple of weeks in the NBA where... [27:40] The outside reporting is so speculative, but then there are pieces of it that feel incredibly well-informed. And so going back to Jalen doing live streams and saying, this was my favorite year of my career, which also had a lot of context. He also says a lot of other stuff that we don't need to get into.

Yeah. [28:00] These little nuggets that then get taken and run with. [28:03] And the idea... [28:06] That this guy went from a pillar of the franchise to a we need to get him out of here. [28:12] With no deadline contractually, league-wide, whatever, we just have to get him out the door, even if it's to arrival in the division and we're going to have to see this dude multiple times a year. [28:24] It really speaks to like... [28:26] I think the tension behind the scenes, but it's so fascinating because I want to know how much the speculation around it actually wound up fueling the fire.

[28:36] I have some thoughts and maybe a couple answers on that, but we have to take a break and we're going to come back and I'm going to talk about my... [28:43] stages of grief with the Jalen Brown trade right after this. [28:47] This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. We're in the heart of the World Cup. Look at these little special bottles for Michelob Ultra. Every play matters here. FIFA World Cup 26 for you, [29:00] The stakes... [29:01] are just this hot. Michelob Ultra, the official beer sponsor of...

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[29:47] Thank you. [29:48] All right, we're back. [29:49] In 2004, [29:51] The Boston Red Sox. [29:54] In July. [29:55] Traded Nomar Garcia-Pera, who was the most popular guy on the team other than Pedro. Now, hold on. They traded him for Orlando Cabrera. And they also got Doug Benkiewicz in that, who ended up... [30:09] Thank you. [30:10] quenching the ball when they won the World Series a few months later. And this was an incredibly polarizing trade. And I wrote a piece for com. [30:18] Actually kind of defending the trade because they had tried to trade Nomar the previous winter in the A-Rod thing.

[30:25] It fell apart. [30:27] He had to come back and it was weird. [30:30] For half the season, there was some advanced stuff with him that he was slipping defensively. [30:36] that he was starting to hurt the team a little bit, that he wasn't the guy that he was a couple years before. [30:41] And they trade Cabrera for him, who was an excellent defensive player. [30:46] and just kind of fit the team better. Everyone in Boston lost their fucking mind. And then it turned out to be a great trade. And Cabrera was one of the many heroes, no four.

[30:55] If you're a Boston fan, that's the only thing you're going to talk to right now. Orlando Cabrera to yourself? You're just like, maybe this is like the Cabrera trade. I'll give you the stages of refair. This is like the end of the Irishman. It's like Orlando Cabrera. Please. So I hear about this trade. The anesthesia wears off and I'm watching America. [31:18] Um, [31:19] I think convincingly went to nothing, especially because we were... [31:23] playing a guy down for a half hour, including one of the great free kicks of my lifetime.

Did you think he was making it, CR? I did not think he was too... I thought he was going to be too close. The goalie did give him a... [31:35] You have a wide side on the right there. You gave him a little bit of space, but yeah, I mean, that and the red card. I do like the free kicks when it's over on the left because I feel like you can really blast it. He put so much. Yeah, that was incredible. Anyway, I was trying to focus on the game, and I'm in three hours of darkness.

Some things I wrote down because I wanted to write down my anesthesia thoughts in real time. [31:54] New owner cheaped out. Brad panicked. Brad panicked. [31:57] Tatum demanded the deal. [31:59] Worst Celtics trade ever. Haven't felt this helpless since they traded for Vin Baker. Those were five things I wrote down during the World Cup game. [32:08] By the fourth hour, after the game, a little more uplifting after we won 2-0, even though we lost our best player in our team to a bogus red card. [32:17] I wrote down... [32:19] Take last year's team and replace...

[32:22] Brown for Tatum. [32:24] Garza for Mitch, because they got Mitchell Robinson yesterday. Enjoy that. And Simons for Paul George. [32:31] Wait, are we better or worse? [32:34] Start to get signs of hope. [32:36] And then I wrote down [32:38] Didn't PG play as effectively as Tatum and Brown in the round one series? [32:42] Looked up his stats, 17 points a game, 55% from three. [32:48] He at least was a draw with... [32:51] with with brown [32:52] And then [32:54] After five hours, and I had some texts, I'm trying to get faith.

[32:57] I landed on [32:59] This has to be part one of a second part of a deal. [33:02] And I think that's where I've landed. And I really wonder if the Trey Murphy piece is going to be the second piece of this. [33:09] Because I don't think New Orleans wanted, I don't think they wanted Jalen Brown three more years of him. [33:14] And I wonder if George on one year less... [33:18] with picks and you get Murphy and you get Jordan Poole's expiring back. And that's the end game here. [33:24] And now that makes sense to me, Kurt Goldsberry.

Does it make sense to you? I had a similar sort of come around this morning. I could feel my face again after I woke up, and I was like, oh, Kate – [33:35] Celtics won 56 games, is that right, Bill, last year with this team? So assuming Tatum sort of slides into the Jalen Brown slot, and I'm like, okay, this is a 50-win team, right? But I had a similar sort of coming around to it. [33:50] Um, I'm not sure there is a second move, but that's a great theory. [33:55] I do think what I said earlier...

[33:57] They value flexibility and, [34:00] The NBA did this to all the teams with this hard cap, second apron situation, and they [34:05] Depth has never been more important. The only way to find depth is in a draft with cost-controlled guys and, [34:11] um and overpaying dudes in their 30s is the fastest way to erase depth and there's no shortage of teams that can can say that right now so i think ultimately yeah the paul george thing of it all is still the weirdest piece like okay all that's true kirk but they brought back a 36 year old girl a 36 year old guy with bad legs um and that disappeared for 25 games last year because he got suspended [34:34] So I love your theory.

If they can now turn that [34:38] into Trey Murphy somehow and get Jordan Poole. So is PG available to get traded immediately or do you have to wait? Well, here's the thing. The trade doesn't get announced until I think January 6th. So you have a few days here. July 6th? I'm sorry, July 6th. [34:53] So you have a few days here. [34:55] to [34:56] You can make it a three-team or a four-team or whatever. [35:00] Now, if they do something resembling the trade I just mentioned, maybe they won't. [35:04] Now you're replacing Brown with Tatum, Garza with Mitch, and Simons with Murphy.

[35:10] And then you have your younger guys are a year older. [35:13] and some more Pritchard stuff and [35:15] That starts to make sense. If that doesn't happen and this is just the trade, [35:19] And you're going to get a year out of Paul George and then he's a big expiring next year with picks and you're going to make a move a year from now. [35:26] There is a world where [35:29] They tell Paul George, like, you're going to play 49 games this year. [35:32] And when you play, you'll play like 22, 23 minutes.

We're saving you for the playoffs. We're going to play these younger guys. We want to keep you fresh for the playoffs. We want you to have one round, two rounds, three rounds, whatever. Well, you're going to play bigger minutes. But. [35:47] On paper, whatever Paul George is, whatever we saw... [35:50] This is where I sound like I'm justifying the trade. I'm not. I'm just saying on paper. So the way you're justifying it is if there is a hypothetical second move to be made that isn't like, [36:03] we're waiting for Jokic or we're waiting for DeBansa and Flagg to come up, right?

No, it's more like you're using Paul George to get somebody's money back, but ultimately flexibility, which I've been saying in this podcast since the season ended. [36:16] If they traded Jalen, I really thought it would be for flexibility. That's why... [36:20] I never really liked the Giannis thing because I thought I'd put them in the same position they were in before with these two giant contracts. But with the Paul George piece, and you're looking at it and you're like, all right, maybe we get a year out of him. [36:32] less minutes.

He's a more complimentary player than Jalen. Our chemistry is better. We can find out what we have with Hugo and Shireman. [36:42] More Pritchard. [36:43] And we'll patch this together because we did this last year. And by the way, maybe you, [36:47] Maybe they're also saying Jalen wasn't as responsible for last year as he got the credit for. [36:53] that this was a system thing. It was depth. It was night after night being able to have, [36:58] 10 guys who were competent was the three point shooting. Um, it was the defense and that's the only thing I can think of.

Um, [37:06] If that trade doesn't happen... [37:08] And PG just comes back, um, [37:12] I still think that I think the thing they're risking here is, [37:16] is the fans in the city. [37:18] That's right. Paul George not [37:21] I would say he's been a slightly divisive guy over the years. [37:25] You're risking Jalen going to Philly and Philly being really good right away. [37:28] You're risking all of the Celtics, whatever the team they have now, not playing as well as they thought they were initially. And you're taking a last year, a feel-good thing where everybody liked everybody.

And we're like, wow, this is great. I love this team. I love Joe Mazzulla. I love Brad Stevens. There's Chisholm. [37:45] Now, if this doesn't work out right away, you're talking about Chisholm walking to his seats before the game and somebody be like, yo, Chisholm, fuck you. [37:56] Stevens going into the thing. Hey, Stevens, fucking Trader Jalen, fuck you. [38:01] This changes the energy, so they better be right on this, CR, because you've seen this in Philly. Yes. When the energy shifts... [38:08] In the cold weather cities, specifically Boston, Philly, New York, [38:12] It can get dangerous.

Yeah, and I think that the things that seem to matter to front offices sometimes are just so far apart from what matter to fan bases. And fan bases like establishing relationships with guys. They like seeing guys grow up. [38:24] They like acquiring new stars. They like... [38:28] developing kind of like a rhythm with the team, a rhythm with the way the team plays. Now that can get stale and you can, you can find yourself as a Phillies fan and be like, I like these guys, but I've been watching this TV show for 10 years now or whatever.

But I think that, [38:43] I think that, [38:44] The danger is, you know, flexibility over... [38:49] over fandom, you know, and flexibility over who are we putting on a billboard if we're trying to build a new stadium like you guys sound like you are, you know, and I think that that's that's a real real dice roll. [39:01] Furthermore, for as much as you're like, this could work out if it's Trey Murphy. And there's a couple of ways in which this could not work out. This could go very wrong. More than a couple.

Including Jason Tatum with coming off an Achilles injury. Paul George at 36. Mitch Robinson, who has a big injury history. And they have all these injury variables. Yeah, and a couple of those guys that you bring up on every podcast, who I still don't really remember watching play. [39:31] taped in my head. [39:34] Didn't show up against the Sixers. [39:36] We're not ready for primetime. So they are really nice regular season pieces, and they're really nice development stories, but I don't necessarily think they're going to win a second round series for you guys.

So look, I haven't been out of the second round since 2001, so what am I talking about? I'm just saying that there is an element to... [39:55] If you're counting on another deal making this right, or this all kind of coalescing in a way that we just don't understand yet, there's also a negative side of it. [40:06] side of it. [40:07] I would say there's a few bad signs. [40:09] The coalescing. [40:11] The betting on guys with injury histories, Kirk. [40:15] The fan reaction to this trade, which is... [40:18] the single most negative fan reaction even mookie betts we knew that was coming for like a year this was [40:24] I think, way more contentious.

[40:26] I'm sure Brian Curtis copyright the Now They Tell Us story. I'm dreading the Now They Tell Us for this. The Celtics don't usually operate that way. They're not a big leaking after the fact organization, but [40:42] The big question that they would never answer, that if I had a Brad Stevens truth serum where I'm like, you have to answer, I'm giving you this. [40:50] I'm going to give you a call on Ascabee and Anesthesia. You're going to tell me this. This sounds like the beginning of an erotic film. You giving Brad Stevens a call on Ascabee.

By Adrian Lyne. [41:02] From Hell Month for sure. From Hell Month is back. A disgruntled fan wants answers. The question I want to know is, were you thinking of doing this right after the season? Or did this evolve during the offseason? Because my guess is... [41:16] my thought, [41:18] is that pretty much everything Jalen did from the moment the season ended, [41:23] push them to a place that [41:25] they decided maybe this was untenable, Kirk. Now, you work for a team. You're always judging the... [41:32] You're judging the chemistry of the team.

You're judging the best guys in the team, the happiness of the team. Like the Spurs got LaMarcus Aldridge when you were there. [41:41] One of the reasons they got LaMarcus Aldridge was because it was pretty clear in that last Portland year – [41:47] He wasn't 100% happy that there was... [41:50] Dame was becoming embraced, even though that Portland team was really good. [41:54] It's one of Zach Lowe's favorite teams. Something was off, and then the Spurs ended up getting him. So how much... [42:01] How much do organizations just think about the non-basketball personality shit?

[42:06] I kept going to that. I don't think people understand the human element. When you trade a guy, it doesn't just affect that guy and his family. It affects all the spouses and the kids. Now everybody's looking over their shoulder. I know that RC and Pop were very, very careful with the trade tool itself. We don't want to blow up the morale. We want to build an element of trust around here. [42:36] was King and they had players who were taking less money, much like Jalen Brunson, which has enabled the Knicks to find depth this time around.

But I think you're right. I think there is a human story here where Jalen Brown had an awkward last few months. I bet there were tensions behind the scene. And that's one of the only ways I can explain a relatively great front office making what I consider to be a bad deal to get away from Jalen Brown is that [43:06] behind the scenes, some real tension that we may never learn about. If Dan Shaughnessy is not going to write it these days, I don't know who will. But why did this happen from a human perspective?

Because the numbers just don't add up. You can do the double ledger here, and it screams like you started the podcast with. The Boston Celtics just dumped this dude who won finals MVP two years ago. It was a salary dump. To a division rival. To their historic rivals. [43:36] the greatest rivals the league's ever seen. Well, the thing... [43:40] I always judge these trades by two things. [43:43] A year later, would you... [43:45] Be glad or unhappy that you did it. [43:48] That's one. [43:49] And then... [43:50] Four months later, would the trade still be there?

[43:54] Mm-hmm. [43:56] I'm guessing if this trade doesn't happen today, CR... [44:00] but we get to the beginning of October. [44:02] And Boston calls and said, hey, you're going to be a fan of the game. [44:05] Jalen Brown for Paul George and two picks. [44:08] You're still saying yes? [44:10] So why would you do a trade... [44:13] Why would you do a trade that's going to be there in October now is the best case for they felt like this situation happened? [44:21] had gotten untenable behind the scenes. [44:24] And who knows if Tatum...

[44:27] who's been... [44:28] And I've heard both sides of this. He hasn't said anything. [44:32] Um, [44:33] He never went on the Jalen. This is a big thing in the local radio. He never went on Jalen's Twitch. Like, [44:39] it is true he never said anything now the counter would be well if he does say something then that becomes a story so he's got to lay back does he say a lot about anything I mean I don't really think of Jason Tatum as the most demonstrative star like you know he does a lot of like [44:54] Here's my documentary about my rehabilitation from my injury.

But there's not like a... It's a lot of carefully crafted docu-series. Yeah, I'm going live on IG to break down the World Cup. I mean, it's just... This kind of stuff is like what we have replaced reporting with is like looking at tea leaves and trying to be like, wow, I was going to switch. A guy told me. Somebody told me in front of mine. [45:24] know, I like that's for better and for worse. But I think that the only my only counter to this would be I don't now in retrospect, don't think Mike Gansey would have waited.

[45:34] I think the Sixers team was going to get changed. I didn't actually anticipate that. I thought that they were going to run it back. [45:41] And it was going to be like, this is about cleaning up whatever Daryl did and, [45:46] we're going to do some depth stuff and we'll, we'll, we'll draft well and we'll, [45:51] We'll figure out where we're at. [45:53] And hopefully Edgecombe develops and we'll be like a five seed or something like that. And Embiid, let's just cross our fingers. But now in retrospect, I'm like, oh, this guy wanted to change the face of the team.

This guy wanted to strip the paint and make it into his own thing. And I mean, speaking of reading tea leaves, his brother posted a picture yesterday of Gansey... [46:17] with LeBron and... [46:19] uh you know in the st mary's uniform from back in the day which you know is probably horseshit but is tony jones also reported that the sixers acquired about lebron and if that's the game he wants to play like hell yeah sure you know other people have had the joy of cheering for lebron i'll take it uh [46:40] But yeah, I don't think the Sixers were going to sit around waiting for Jalen Brown.

I think this was an opportunistic trade. [46:47] I don't think Paul George was going anywhere else. [46:50] We should mention that. [46:51] Waz and House and I do the worst contracts draft in the beginning of every March. We should mention this. [46:56] and Bede was one and Paul George was two. [46:59] And it wasn't even like, it was basically one of those, the draft starts at three. [47:04] Because we know these are the top two. Now, when we did this, Paul George was... [47:09] was under suspension. [47:11] Didn't know if he was going to come back.

The Philly thing could not have gone worse, and he had two and a half years left on the deal. Now he has two, but... [47:18] I thought he was really good in the playoffs. [47:20] I said it over and over again. I thought, I was shocked by how well he played [47:25] I thought he really bothered Jalen, ironically, and there was a lot of clips about this last night of all these different times he locked down Jalen one-on-one. Three-point shooting was great. [47:34] Even in the Knicks series, his stats weren't that bad.

[47:37] Um, [47:38] So that was, I thought the best he's looked in a couple of years. Bill, if it's Paul George, if you guys had won, I can't remember what the Sixers streak was or what we were definitely surging and Paul George got suspended. Boston would implode like talk. It would be neat. They would have an FCC violation. Mm hmm. [47:58] I want to talk about the Philly piece in one second. This is my last thing on Boston because I think we covered... [48:04] everything there is to cover from the Boston side.

But the Jalen thing of just... [48:08] being with somebody for 10 years, ironically, 10 years ago was when they drafted him. [48:13] What they had with him and Tatum together, which led to a title six conference finals, [48:19] And, you know, [48:20] I was pretty steadfast all the way through, even with the honest thing. I was like, I think this guy's really good at basketball. Like, I don't really care what the stats are. I've watched... [48:27] Watch them over and over again. I just think this is the guy, the bigger the stage, the bigger the event.

He's going to be there and he's going to show up. [48:36] Now, people can counter and be like, well, what happened to the Philly series last year? He wasn't good. Well, why'd they fall apart in three of the last four playoffs? [48:45] I just wonder if we're ever going to see teams stay together like this anymore in the NBA with the way the apron is. [48:52] Everyone's talking about the advanced metric side, and this is like the end of a certain era. To me, it's like the different end of an era.

You could see it in the contracts that were handed out. [49:00] One for seven. [49:01] two for 14, two for 19. Tesla got one of the only long deals we had. All of the middle class companies, [49:09] slightly upper middle class, slightly lower middle class. All those guys are on one-year and two-year deals now. Nobody wants two big contracts on the same team anymore. [49:19] Utah, [49:20] who really could have [49:22] Hughes Kessler was like, wow, you're offering us all this? Great, take them. [49:26] And then you look at the snowtime Lakers now with Reeves making 45, Kessler making 35, and Luka making the max.

It's like, that's your team. Those are going to be your three guys now. So, Kirk, I just wonder, like you mentioned the Spurs earlier. [49:42] If we're running back to Spurs now, Parker gets traded in 2010. He's gone. They're like, shit, we have this. We got to pay that. We got to pay Duncan. We have to pick between Manu and Parker. Parker just had the off-the-court thing that happened. You can Google it. [49:58] This is the time. Let's move them. We'll get younger. We'll get a young point guard. And guess what doesn't happen?

You're not one of the best teams in the league for the first part of the 2010s. You don't make two straight finals and you don't win the 2014 title. So I just wonder, is this the league now where we're the NFL? And it's just a different champion every year. And it's by design. I mean, this is the first time in league history we've had eight different champions in eight years. Welcome to the parity era. It is the NFL. And it is a direct byproduct bill of the new CBA that went into effect in 2023.

[50:28] one of the things that I don't think is good is, [50:31] is we're starting to see like beloved characters being dumped like clay thompson like [50:37] This guy is going to have a statue. He's going to be a warrior hero, but he gets like dumped. So Jalen's not the first one to go through this. [50:46] But it's boring, but it's profound, too. It's the instrument... [50:51] insists on giving the biggest paydays in the league to dudes 31, 32, 35 years old. And then they immediately become toxic assets. [51:00] They become toxic acts.

We all know Bill Wendige's peak at the NBA, 28-28. [51:05] 29. We watched the finals. It was all young dudes and guys in their 20s. Yeah, I said in Giannis' piece last week on The Ringer that there were two guys... [51:14] Among the 25 most minutes played in this year's playoffs, they were 32 and older. [51:18] This is a young man's game, in part because the CBA makes it nearly impossible to, [51:24] to build a good team around these toxic assets, these guys a little past their prime, they're making fucking $70 million.

Like we're reserving our paydays for,