Why Brunson Is Top 50 All Time, a Finals Mega-Mailbag, and NBA Fake Trade Season With Joe House

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It just keeps going and going. So we have the draft coming up. I'm going to try to hit, I think I might do three podcasts this week. We might be going Monday, Wednesday, Friday this week. And at least one of those will have a bunch of draft stuff. But today I want to have Joe House on. [01:59] Um, this has been the guy I've argued about with about historical basketball stuff the most over the past years. [02:05] almost 40 years of my life. But we got to talk about Jalen Brunson, big picture.

I have great mailbag questions. I'm trying to... [02:13] figure out what the hell happened over these last two and a half months and how the NBA shifted and, and house is going to be by mailbag slash pyramid. [02:22] Sandy board because we got to figure out where Jalen Brunson goes in the pyramid. So I'm excited. [02:27] It's all next. Can't wait. We're going to bring in Pearl Jam. [02:30] right after we take this break. [02:33] Pearl Jam. [02:34] This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by PayPal. [02:38] You know a clutch move when you see one?

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[03:47] here. We're going to do a mailbag. We're going to talk a lot of historical NBA pyramid stuff, which is the real reason you're here. [03:53] We're going to talk S. Open near the end because you have a lot of thoughts. [03:56] and picks. We are coming off [03:59] And awesome. [04:01] Sports weekend. [04:02] The Knicks and probably win the NBA title in five games and spurn a bunch of narratives. Spurn? Spur? Spur. [04:10] Spur, no pun intended, spur a bunch of big narratives. That happened. There's been a lot of draft buzz.

There's been a bunch of Giannis stuff now. It feels like this Giannis thing is in full gear. [04:22] We had Darren Peterson basically saying he would only work out with your Washington Wizards and that's it. [04:29] We're going to talk about that. We had... [04:31] The Stanley Cup finals, Carolina won, El Chippo. El Chippo carrying the cup. We had this UFC White House event that everybody was pretty bummed out about, and yet it had two of the most... [04:45] uh, [04:46] kind of shocking... [04:48] Fights in a row that I can ever remember in UFC where we had Pereira and Tuporia both lost, two of the best three fighters in the world.

[04:55] Pereira got his ass kicked. [04:57] And then Teporia looked like he was in a car accident by the end of the fight. It was, that was great. And then we had a bunch of World Cup. Are you betting World Cup? Are we in danger zone here post-NBA finals where you're just sprinkling stuff everywhere? I mean, obviously, yes. The biggest lesson with the World Cup is any team that starts with the T, not betting them. We're really relying on Tony Tokens. Every morning of this World Cup, we wake up, we hit up our guy, the Bundow, Tony Tokens.

[05:27] today with the World Cup. So far, the biggest losers have been Turkey and Tunisia. [05:33] two other that's it's hit my bank account in the wrong direction so i'm not betting any more countries that begin with the letter t the t is is stands for taking it in the in the take my money take my money um we we were talking about these uh these top four nba draft odds too which has been fun like in the prediction market where and fando has some stuff too but there it's all over the [06:00] Peterson happened today.

[06:02] where he basically said, I only want to work out for Washington. But we're both convinced that Washington is going to take J. DeBansa with the first pick. [06:08] And this to me is a situation now worth watching because if Utah takes Boozer second, [06:15] I could honestly see Peterson being like, I'm not playing for Memphis. You guys are going to have to figure this out. It's not happening. [06:21] Wow. Why? We haven't seen that in a long time. We have not. I mean, Steve Francis is famous in 1999 or 2000, somewhere in there.

[06:33] And then, uh, [06:34] Maybe he tried to go to the Bulls. I don't know, but I'm prepared for just about anything there. Then you have Acuff, who seems like the most popular pick, but the Clippers had the fifth pick right after the top four. [06:45] and they don't need a point guard, but everybody's in love with Acuff. So that pick feels like it's for sale. [06:50] there was a, [06:52] A trade rumor going around the internets today. [06:54] about if [06:56] if there was going to be a third team for this Giannis Boston trade, which I've been talking about on this podcast for a week.

And there, I think would have to be a third team if Jalen's in it because what is, what's Milwaukee can do with Jalen? [07:07] Could the clips... I'd heard this too during the weekend. Could the clips... [07:12] with the fifth pick, move in there and be the third team. And then the second piece of this, [07:19] would they then send Kawhi to Miami as a consolation prize? And you're basically replacing Kawhi with Jalen. [07:25] Use the fifth pick. [07:27] The real story here is I'm not sure the Clippers have anyone they love with the fifth pick.

So we have basically a little over a week here with a bunch of crazy storylines in play. What's your team doing? [07:38] Where what's Utah doing it to where's Peterson actually going? And does he want to go there? What happens from fifth pick on my favorite storyline? Can the Warriors get somebody good at 11? Cause it's basically a nine square draft with Marin as like the wild cards that could go higher and push people down. Is OKC going to try to trade a center? [07:58] This is about as fun as we've had for the eight days.

So what's your favorite storyline? [08:02] AJ DeBanza to the Washington Wizards, of course. The number one overall pick is the only thing that I care about. It will be fascinating to see what happens behind. I do really put some faith in the idea of Boozer to Utah. It just makes too much sense. And when some smart folks on the internets have started doing some, here's how the chemistry would work. And for sure, the relationship between the Boozer family and the organization, [08:32] We're all familiar with that narrative aspect of it, but the fit.

[08:36] who Hardy is like the first time, this is the first time we're going to see Will Hardy, you know, be able to actually coach for wins. Yeah. To wins. Right. I think booster is a, is a great fit there. So that, that creates this jump ball situation. And the thread this morning was moving our little thread, our draft expertise. Yeah. I love the notion of Peterson to Chicago. It makes a ton of sense. Me too. And, and for sure Memphis, [09:06] Swanti kind of immediately fills the Triple J role, doesn't he?

Like, there's a whole bunch of reasons why that makes sense. But we don't have great precedent for teams swapping draft position without there being some kind of compensation. But the fit for both Chicago and Memphis, you know, those respective players make sense if they swap positions. [09:36] worth a Giordano's deep dish. What are like, you know, something because it's like, I think it's like, it would have to be three years or maybe they open up a Giordano's satellite [09:47] deep dish place in downtown Memphis. Fine. I have an easier trade for you.

What if they just give them the 15th pick? [09:54] Okay. Four and 15 for three. [09:56] Fine. We'll solve your Darren Peterson issue and Memphis can get four and 15 and just take Caleb Wilson, who might end up being a better part anyway. I like that for both sides. [10:05] So do I. The most fun NBA scenario is you guys take AJ. [10:09] Utah takes Boozer. [10:11] Um, [10:12] Peterson heads up in Chicago. [10:15] Memphis gets 4-15, takes Caleb Wilson. [10:18] And then... [10:20] Utah calls San Antonio. [10:23] And they say, [10:25] Heard you have a Darren Fox problem.

[10:29] We have a matching salary in lower marketing. [10:32] But you're going to have to wet our beak. [10:34] Hmm. [10:36] How about you tossing Carter Bryant? [10:39] Wow. Maybe one of your future protected picks. [10:44] And let's call it a day. [10:45] The files ended and you were immediately in the trade machine. What time Saturday night were you in the trade machine? Be honest. It was after the game finished at what time at West Coast? Nine? Oh, you and Zach had to do the pod. No, we finished the pod and then Fox Trade started pouring out of me.

Like the pus from open source. All right. I'm ready to roll. I'm glad you went that direction. I thought it was other bodily fluids, but it all makes sense. [11:15] Antonio's problems in that 2026 finals. [11:19] Here's the problem that we're going to have for a little while. It is... [11:24] overreaction of the moment, all of the recency bias, I think quite a bit of the Fox as the in the crosshairs kind of concept is really emblematic of who this Spurs team is and the fact that they arrived a year early.

They just weren't ready. They weren't ready from top to bottom. They weren't ready conceptually. They weren't ready schematically. They weren't ready for in terms of [11:54] one team in the entire NBA where they're youthful, uh, the speed, uh, Wemby's force, their, their, their, um, defensive intensity. They only ran, there was only one team in the NBA, um, that, that could match them because New York, to their credit, they showed up healthy. This was the single biggest underrated storyline because they swept the two previous, uh, teams that they faced in the East.

They had so much time to get the very best version of themselves [12:24] for the, for these playoffs, remember Fox was missing games in these playoffs. It's not fair to me to be, you know, pinpointing Fox and now for sure, we can look at the moments where he was not up to the task and you say this, he's supposed to be on this team. He's supposed to be the calming influence. He's supposed to be the guy that makes the intelligent high IQ basketball play at the end of these games. And every one of these games that are so close, it's crunch time.

And he's a previous crunch time winner. [12:54] demonstrated track record of success. But I think when we sort of start, start taking some steps back, um, [13:01] There is yet still... [13:03] a version of this Spurs team where we say we're a little more gracious about it. Like, can we be generous and say that Mitch Johnson and De'Aaron Fox will get on the same page with the benefit of what they learned from that series and all of the assets that the Spurs possess coming into the next season? There's a version of this Spurs team.

Like, what do you think they're over under will open up at in terms of regular season wins? Well, they're the favorite. In the 60s. [13:29] Yeah, they'll be in the 60s. [13:32] You know, I didn't really realize this until Sunday as I was going through all the clips and stuff and watching the postgame interviews. [13:39] It does feel like the fundamental issue with the Spurs. And by the way, all the stuff you said about the Spurs, about, hey, if they just lost, I said that on Saturday, if they just lost, [13:49] Game seven in OKC.

We don't have any of this stuff, and we're fine with the Spurs, and it's a successful season. [13:55] I do want to point out you were very mean about the New England Patriots who made the Super Bowl, and it was the same scenario. [14:00] And I don't remember you making that defense for my Patriots. [14:04] I don't understand. It's a radically different sport. And I was on the correct side. It's a young team that got to the Super Bowl and maybe would have been better off losing in the AFC title game, which I said.

But you didn't want to hear it. You just you. I just wanted to win. Cousin Sal's Drake made jokes. All I did was win money. I like betting against the Patriots. I like winning money. [14:24] But watching all this stuff the next day. [14:27] And then thinking about the series more, looking at the minutes, [14:31] I do think the fundamental issue with the Spurs, they had two issues. [14:34] One is Wemby is a 30 minute a game guy who cannot play 40. I think we've learned that in the playoffs. He's going to have to figure that out.

That's who he is right now. That's who he is right now. He's going to have to figure that out over the next five years. Right. How can I handle being on the court more than 29 to 30 minutes a game? That's one issue. The other is the Harper issue. [14:55] And, and, [14:55] You saw it in game five. [14:58] Who got the car keys near the end of game five? It was Harper. It was the first time you saw them do that all the series where – [15:05] He brought it up.

They were running stuff through him. [15:08] And I just think they were afraid to do that the whole series. Fox played more minutes than him. Fox played 36 minutes. [15:14] 12 points a game. All his stats were terrible. And then had a couple big brain farts. I think he was afraid to shoot by the end of the series. Like he couldn't hit threes. Harper wasn't much better on threes, but at least wasn't afraid to... [15:27] Take them. And I think fundamentally that was almost a bigger issue than the Wemby thing is that, [15:32] They had this issue, but did you hear of a cell said?

[15:35] He talked about Harper. He was like, this was a tough year for him. He had to go down to the G League at one point. That's true. He did. He was not happy about his minutes. It was the first time he was kind of like, yeah, Harper wanted to play more and was ready to be this guy. Harper's attitude during that finals was, I'm here. I'm ready. I'm ready for all of this. [15:56] And Mitch Johnson... [15:57] just was afraid to kind of tell Fox to go sit in the passenger seat.

And that was a big issue for them. Sure. And you know what? Everything you just said. [16:07] That's fine. That's great. All of that is part of the maturation process, the growing up process. Like the minutes thing, you know, Zach Lowe and Sean Fennessy, an extraordinary podcast Sunday night that I enjoyed listening to very much. [16:37] advantage that they possessed over the Spurs. Well, the Spurs losing steam in the second half, and especially in the fourth quarter, running out of energy, that's a skill. That's not about the conditioning of the Spurs versus the conditioning of the Knicks.

It's a skill. You have to learn it. You have to learn through these kinds of playoff reps how to allocate that [17:07] in quite a bit of the strategizing that the Spurs undertook, that Mitch Johnson undertook. We saw it in Game 5. He took Wemby out with five minutes left in the basketball game, for Christ's sakes. How is that possible? What are we doing? Like, we know what the Cornette minutes produced. But look, this was, to me, a giant success for the Spurs. Like, you know, like they have nothing to really resent or regret other than like, we're just quite not.

[17:36] ready and there's really only one team in the NBA that could, you know, really take advantage of it. [17:43] I never think it's a giant success if you could actually win the title and you didn't. [17:48] The Patriots had no chance to win the Super Bowl against the Seahawks, right? And that put me in that mode of, ah, man, I just wish we'd lost in Denver. [17:55] - San Antonio, they led for I think, what was it, 72% of the series? [18:00] They led by double digits in all five games.

So what? They led in the last two minutes of every game. [18:06] Hang a banner with all those stats on it. I have good mailbag questions about this, but one of them I'm going to read now. This is from Timothy. [18:15] "My closest friend was supremely confident at every juncture of the NBA Finals." [18:19] about the Spurs losing. He said in the first quarter of game five, the Spurs are like drunk teenagers who eventually black out. A lot of early stamina. It's totally true. Hey, you want to do Jägerbester shots?

Yeah. Let's go. And then by 11 o'clock, people are throwing up in the bushes. That wasn't Timothee Chalamet. No, it was not Timothee Chalamet. Okay, just checking. No, it was the spelling. He ended the spelling with a Y. [18:46] Okay, good. Woo. So – [18:49] I think you're right in the sense of, hey, let's not overreact. [18:52] But I do think this Harper thing... [18:55] I think he has to start next year. And I think he needs to drive the car. And if I'm them... [19:00] I'm looking... [19:02] at getting out of this Fox thing if I can.

Because the other trade, and people were sending a bunch of different trades, and you could do like, oh, we'll get Randall for a year and Di Vincenzo. There's all kinds of... [19:12] Whatever's. [19:14] Porter. [19:15] from the Nets as an expiring for Fox. [19:20] was one that got sent to me a few times. And that one made me go, huh? [19:24] Because you have the Nets who... [19:26] you know, [19:27] I don't think they want to be rebuilding for the rest of the 2020s. They just had the entire city got officially taken away from them.

They're irrelevant. [19:36] And, you know, [19:37] could you do that trade and then [19:40] um, trade this six pick for a star and just try to be like, we're here. We have good players. Now. My, my only pushback on that is that the Porter expiring should be more valuable than the next five years of Fox at 55. Or you say you're buying low on Fox, a guy who two years ago is averaging 25 points a game. [20:00] And maybe he was just on the wrong team. I don't know. He's in his late 20s.

You could say he was hurt during the playoffs, lost his confidence, were buying low. [20:09] But I thought that was interesting. [20:11] The idea of him being on the wrong team, [20:13] which suggests that [20:15] he's not a winning player. It would say he's on, he should be on exactly the right team. It should be, the Spurs should be the right team. They have this opportunity this summer to like [20:27] lessons learned and and and take that right okay you and i have been following basketball our whole life [20:33] It's true.

This Fox Harper thing is not going to end well. I'm sorry. It just won't. I'd be shocked if it's like, hey, we figured it out. [20:39] Three-guard rotation like Detroit in the late 80s and [20:43] Look at all these good numbers when Fox and Harper play together. I just... [20:47] I don't see it. I think Harper is that special. [20:50] and, and, [20:51] What we saw from him in the playoffs was about as high of a level from a 20-year-old guard as we've seen. [20:57] with Magic being a 10 out of 10, [20:59] and Kobe, and [21:01] you know, in the 2000, was Kobe?

I forget how old he was in the 2000 finals. I think it was... [21:07] Somewhere around 20. But if that's the top of the pyramid, some of the stuff Harper was doing, [21:12] wasn't there, but it was at least sniffing in the vicinity of it. And I thought in game five, I thought that had a chance to be his masterpiece. [21:21] It was like, we've singly only flipped the series. He went all the way to the hole, the layup in the last two minutes that he missed. I mean, he was there.

He did the thing. He got all the way there. I love how he played. Me too. He wasn't afraid at all. I love the defense he was playing on Brunson. Brunson was making big shots on him. [21:37] Um, [21:38] So yeah, we... [21:41] I'm interested to see what happens with Foxx. [21:43] And then you have the Giannis piece, which people have been reporting now for years. [21:48] Two days, like, [21:49] The reason this stuff gets out, if it's just Boston and Milwaukee and they're talking about stuff, very unlikely stuff gets out.

[21:57] But if, and for the aggregators, I am saying if, if Jalen Brown was the piece being dangled for Giannis, [22:06] And Milwaukee is like, well, we don't need Jalen Brown. What could we get for him? That's how stuff gets out. [22:11] that's where you get into trouble. That's when you start calling these different teams, including the Clippers, [22:16] Um, [22:17] I do wonder, though, if there's a... [22:20] The Clippers thing feels a little real to me because... [22:24] Um, I don't know who they know who I don't think they have any idea who they should take at five.

[22:30] I think that's a real issue because they just invested in Garland and the next three guys at five are all point guards. So you can't take a point guard there. [22:37] You have to do something at five. [22:40] I like the idea of the Clippers taking a big swing. They want to stay in the mix. For sure, Ballmer and the front office there, they've shown, you know, the willingness to go ahead. Like, look at what they did preceding this trade deadline. Those are big swings. James Harden and Zubach, that's a front office that's like, we know we got to do something.

There's a reset. So Kawhi is an element of the next step of the reset. Certainly makes sense to me. [23:10] But they are retooling, not rebuilding. And how can they play a role? It feels like Milwaukee wants a full rebuild, right? They want to come up with some combination of draft picks and or very young players, you know, players brand new to the league. And is the Clippers the right conduit to that? I mean, it feels like there needs to be a fourth team. Well, let me ask you, do you think if you're the Clippers and you have Kawhi and you have, [23:39] Garland, and you have a little more of a veteran team, you're probably on a little bit of a shelf life with Kawhi, not just contractually, but just with him as an impact guy is 34.

[23:49] Um, [23:50] If you were able to turn that fifth pick into Jalen or somebody like Jalen, [23:55] Is the fifth pick worth more or less than that? [23:58] Because I think you can make a case Jalen... [24:01] being one of the top 12 players in the league. [24:04] second team of all-nba last year coming up a career year is probably worth more than the fifth pick by himself. [24:10] Well, how do they get Jalen? It's an impossible contract. That's the thing that, how could the Clippers possibly afford? It's three years, like $60 million a year, basically.

[24:19] But the Clippers are under the cap now. Garland's at like 36, 37. Kawhi is close to a max, but they have a bunch of other stuff after that. They have to extend Matherin, don't they? Or just let him go. Or he's in the trade. [24:31] Oh, interesting. [24:33] I still like Matherin. And if you're the Bucks and you... [24:37] Like, could I sell that to my fans? [24:39] that I traded Giannis, but I got [24:42] the fifth pick back. [24:44] And I said the 10th pick and now I have five and 10 in an awesome draft.

[24:48] Is that enough? [24:50] Well, you and I both love Vacuff probably the most. [24:53] by the way there's a lot of buzz on him just killing these workouts and teams being like holy shit [25:03] We need one or two more assets for Milwaukee. [25:06] I agree. [25:07] I feel like well we'll see what happens um [25:10] I'm really excited to see how all of this plays up. This is great. What a Monday after the finals. Let's go. [25:16] we're going to take a break. We're going to come back and we're going to talk about Jalen Brunson.

[25:21] in the pyramid right after this. [25:23] This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. This summer, soccer is here. The watch parties. [25:29] will be spectacular. And they'll be going every day, back to back to back. Don't worry, Uber Eats has your game day essentials covered. With 30% off offers from Aldi, [25:40] Kroger, Dollar General. [25:42] Oh, yeah. [25:43] All the snacks and groceries to keep your crowd happy delivered. [25:47] straight to your door, like chips, dips, wings. [25:50] Walk. [25:51] fresh ingredients for the perfect game day spread.

Order in so you can stay locked in on the game, all the hosting. [25:57] None of the hassle. [25:58] Order now for 30% off your game day snacks and grocery order only on Uber Eats for a limited time. Offer eligible for 30% off entire order. Taxes, fees and terms apply. Offer valid. [26:10] through July 5th. Product availability varies by region, [26:15] Exclusions may apply. [26:18] - All right, so I wrote my basketball book in 2009, spent three years on it. Joe House was one of my conciliaries, and one of the gimmicks, [26:27] which was an idea initially from my buddy Gus's dad, Wally Ramsey, still kicking it in his mid-90s.

Shout out to Wally, who always thought the Hall of Fame should be a pyramid. I wrote a column about this or another column about this, eventually built the basketball around it. Five levels, and as the levels go higher and higher, [26:45] we then get the true [26:46] true flavor of who mattered the most with the top level being the Pantheon. [26:52] Um, [26:53] The biggest thing as we talked about all this stuff, [26:56] trying to figure out why guys matter, why people should have been underrated, overrated, um... [27:03] She's trying to measure impact.

[27:06] Could you win a title with this guy? [27:08] We always gravitated to the actual titles. Did this guy carry a team to a title? [27:13] Did this guy do everything it took? Would you rather have 15 years of somebody... [27:18] who was really, really good and made a bunch of all NBA teams and brought you to the precipice, but you couldn't win a title if he was your best guy. [27:25] Or would you rather have... [27:27] A shorter window. [27:29] with somebody who his peak, you could win the title with them.

[27:33] And we always gravitated to that as we talked about it. And that's why somebody like Bill Walton, [27:38] who really had... [27:40] You know, the 77 Blazers run, they win the title. He's the MVP of the next year, even though he gets hurt near the end. He's hurt for the rest of his career. [27:48] And then as the sixth man on the 86 Celtics. So has basically three moments of, [27:54] And I still had him in the top 35 in my book. I can't remember where he landed exactly. But it was like, I know for that one year, Bill Walton, I can win a title with him.

[28:04] Sinev J. Lembrenson. [28:05] Thank you. [28:06] who's never been a first-team All-NBA guy, [28:09] who had no MVP votes this year at all. [28:13] And yet he just dragged the team to the NBA title house. [28:17] He did something that a bunch of great guards were never able to do. He did something that James Harden, as a starter on his own team, did. [28:25] Never even made the finals and fell short over and over again. Steve Nash, who was an unbelievable player, two-time MVP, through no fault of his own, could never quite get the team there.

Chris Paul finally did it in the 2021 finals late in his career, but they lost. [28:41] Jason Kidd, two straight finals, but he lost, and then finally gets one later as a role player starter in Dallas. [28:49] What Brunson did, [28:51] was up there with Dwayne Wade in 2006. [28:54] It was up there with Walton in 77. You can go on through, but we're just dragging a team to the finals. [29:02] And he is somebody that I never in a million years would have thought would make the pyramid happen. [29:07] that I sent you a piece of as I keep always work on the rankings.

[29:12] I'm going to start here. I think he has to be one of the top 50 players of all time, though. [29:17] And I don't think it's debatable. [29:19] So your initial thoughts on that? [29:22] Yeah, so I want to gently push back. You said twice that he dragged the team. Now, we have to recognize the greatness of Carl Anthony Towns, the contribution of OG and Noby. One of the best secret teams we've had in a long time. Yes. Conceding all that. But you know what really helped? Right, right. [29:41] Anytime they were down in the end of games, down nine, down 10, down 14, Jalen Brunson would just [29:46] figure out how to get offense for them.

And not just figure out, but by design. Like this is part of the brilliance of the front office of Leon Rose and World Wide West in assembling a team and ultimately arriving on a Jalen Brunton-centric position. [30:02] end of game kind of phenomenon. And it's truly a phenomenon. I couldn't get in touch with the Ringer research staff to go back to the point where we measure, okay, all the guys are together. How many times did this group [30:18] in this combination come back from double-digit deficits in a second half and win games in the regular season and in the playoffs.

But we do know that in these playoffs, they went six and two, the greatest accomplishment in a playoff run in terms of being down double digits and coming back and winning games in the play-by-play era. One of the great live bet teams in the history of any sport. [30:43] Exactly right. He was the leading scorer on a team that had the best point differential in playoff history. The leading scorer was Jalen Brunson, and the Knicks are on top of that mountain. [30:58] Well, they... [30:59] Oh, go ahead. [31:00] No, no, it's good.

I was going to say that a big part of my book, [31:04] which was basically the premise of it, was Isaiah saying the secret of basketball is it's not about basketball. It's about all the other stuff. It's about [31:11] selflessness. It's about putting ego aside. It's about how you connect with your teammates, the chemistry you have. [31:17] your ability to galvanize everybody around you. Brunson had all of this. Yes. In one of the best possible ways as a guard, I've never seen. [31:26] I truly don't think he had ego. I think he just wanted to win.

[31:31] and he wanted to prove everyone wrong, and he didn't care how they did it, but over and over again, [31:35] He was their best option. [31:37] Because he was the guy over and over again who could create the best offense for them. And he got better when it mattered. He never got tired. He played 39 minutes a game in the finals. As a small guy... [31:46] The stuff that he did was inconceivable. [31:49] And what he did in game five... [31:52] I'm just going to say it. Like the more I look at it and stare at it, I think is one of the great finals games.

Like, [31:57] You know, Jordan... [31:59] Game 6-98 is the greatest game I've ever seen anyone play when you consider Pippen's hurt. [32:05] Rodman's a mess. Like you basically, he had to control the pace in every moment of that game. And then what he did in the last minute, [32:12] you know, basket, steal, basket to end it. [32:16] But the Brunson thing was pretty close. Like Towns being in foul trouble, [32:20] They're covering OG on the corner threes, and there were multiple moments where the game was going to get away from them, and he just wouldn't let it happen.

[32:28] And especially in the second half, he was just like, all right, I'm just going to keep scoring. [32:32] and let us hang around and the spurs are going to fold. So I value that more than anything. And maybe I overrate it with the pyramid, but you seem to agree with me. Of course. I mean, this is the funny thing. The league invented an award, the clutch player of the year, as a regular season award. It's only been around for four years. He won it. I mean, he's one of the four guys that won it.

Now, De'Aaron Fox did win it also, so I don't know. Yeah, but it's regular season, you know. It is regular season. [33:02] you know, we've talked about this is the DNA of this particular Knicks team, the particular run that they are on. They just never concede anything in any kind of deficit, second half, it doesn't matter. And that's a regular season and postseason trait for this team. And the tip of the spear is Brunson. We really haven't seen a guy that fits his, to your point, his stature, but also, I mean, [33:32] who do you trust to go get a bucket right now or to make the best basketball play right now his 30 foot shot over wemby at the end of game four was the right basketball play him getting that shot up immediately created an advantage for the knicks that they he recognized it as the t double team came over as fox came over to double that created an advantage like even a missed shot is the right basketball play and that's the thing that we're we're looking for a historic how do we put him [34:02] history of the league amongst the all-time greats and where you have him feels right to me.

[34:09] He's probably the toughest guy in the league. [34:13] Is that fair? [34:16] So tougher guy in the league right now? [34:20] I mean, he did... [34:21] withstand some injury scare at the very beginning of the series. And we thought, you know, maybe Wemby getting in his landing space in game five, it's just like, [34:31] I think that guy could have had, you know, a high ankle sprain, whatever. And he just would have been like, I'll deal with it later. [34:38] He's the mentally toughest guy in the league. [34:41] which is, [34:43] I think Curry's up there.

There's been some great players over the years. But for right now, the mantle of... [34:48] I just trust him the most. It doesn't matter where he's playing. On top of taking the responsibility of 53 years, which is like, [34:56] You know, when this happened for the Red Sox, [34:59] It was really Ortiz. [35:00] And it was a bunch of guys, and there were a million heroes in that, from Derek Lowe to even Curtis Laskanik coming in and getting three outs at the perfect time. But it was ultimately Ortiz... [35:11] And the entire Red Sox fan base going...

[35:15] this makes no sense. We lose all the time. We haven't won in 86 years. Something bad's going to happen. The other shoe is going to drop. We're going to get kicked in the teeth. And just kind of looking over at Ortiz and being like, [35:26] But he doesn't seem scared. And we have this guy. And the Yankee fans seem scared of him. And that's what Brunson did for this Knicks team. Like as great as OG was, and we'll talk about him in the mailbag. [35:37] towns, bridges, like their bench guys, everybody chipped in, which was a great thing about this team.

But ultimately to flip history, [35:45] You have to have a guy who's just completely different. [35:48] And so when I think of him historically, even though he's never been a top five All-NBA guy, [35:55] Um, [35:55] I think he has to be in the top 50 now. And what gets interesting is when you start comparing him. So I got an email from... [36:02] Perry, who said, did he just, did Jalen just set the record for biggest historical leapfrog in NBA history? [36:09] What was the biggest jump in one postseason? [36:12] But really, you have to say by an older player, Brunson's been in the league eight years.

[36:19] So I think... [36:20] One guy I was thinking was Kawhi in 2019. I'm told you, of course, of course, you and I immediately, that's, that's the first guy that comes to my mouth is Kawhi in 2019. Amazing. Cause I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have, I don't think Kawhi in the pyramid would, [36:33] He would have been in the honorable mention with a chance. Sure. But then that 2019 playoffs ended and it's like, well, he's now in the top 40. I got to figure out the rankings now because this is what he just did was nuts.

Yeah. Finals MVP for two different teams. He dragged Toronto. Oh, yeah. Well, Dirk's the best example. [36:53] For a late late career guy Because Dirk was in the 1997 draft [36:58] He won that finals in 2011, so he's year 14. I had him 39th in my book. [37:05] which came out before... [37:08] the 2011 title, right? [37:10] Then he wins the title. It's like, well, now you're moving up, buddy. [37:13] Here, I have a little suite right underneath the penthouse for you. So he's, you know, I think I have him in the 21-22 range now.

[37:21] And then you have the younger guys like SGA that they win the title, they jump up, but that's a little more common. The Brunson thing... [37:28] I wouldn't even have had him on honorable mention until these playoffs. I understand. Yeah, he didn't have the credentials yet. [37:36] Right. And, and, and, [37:38] He's only halfway through his career. I mean, he's only 29. He should play another seven or eight years. There's a chance to bump it. Yeah. [37:46] So just enhancing the overall career resume. [37:50] So if you go in the top 50, [37:52] where, where, [37:53] Just so people know, there's...

[37:57] Clyde Drexler I have in the mid-50s, Gary Payton. These are guys that were the best player in finals teams who had a bunch of all-NBAs and really good careers. But we just had a lot of players. Since I [38:08] you know, almost two decades worth of more seasons and more great players. [38:13] In level three, so it goes level one, level two, level three. [38:17] which was no doubt about it, Hall of Famers, who ranked among the best for a few years with every requisite resume statistic to match, no MVP winner can drop below level three unless there's a fantastic reason.

Unfortunately, that's Derrick Rose. But [38:31] Um, [38:32] Pat Iverson at 52, who I think you and I ride for maybe a little more than others historically, but... [38:38] It's really just the 2001 playoffs and really no success postseason-wise other than that. [38:44] But you go down and there's this whole bunch of guards that Brunson is in the middle of now, historically. [38:51] Luka Doncic. [38:52] George Girvin. [38:54] James Harden? [38:56] Sam Jones, so I'm going to ride for it to the death because he was the best big game guard ever.

[39:02] of the first basically 40 years of the league other than Jerry West. [39:06] Jason Kidd. [39:08] Steve Nash. [39:09] And well, Frazier, I have all those guys in the 40s and you could argue about the order, but they're all there. They all have the all MBAs. Frazier has the 70 and 73 finals. [39:19] Frazier was top five first [39:22] Top five, first team on the NBA four times. [39:25] Nash had the two MVPs. [39:27] Kidd was an MVP runner-up, but dragged those two Nets teams to the finals, which mattered.

Then he won a title. And Jason Kidd was just awesome. The stats aren't going to be kind to him because of the three-point shooting and the field goal percentage, but we were there. [39:40] He made threes. It'll be a three-point shooting percentage thing to knock him, but he made threes. This is the top five in the history of the league. But for years, he was 29%, 30%. And he was the best defensive player of all these guys other than Frazier. Sam Jones was 10 championships. [39:56] Um, [39:57] He had... [40:01] He had three, he had, I think a couple on this.

Oh, there it is. Three top tens. [40:06] Um, [40:07] but was the key guy in those wrestle teams in the 60s because they needed somebody to [40:12] basically do the Brunson at the end of the games. [40:15] Harden gets... [40:16] Pardon him, MVP. [40:18] three-time runner-up MVP, six top five, [40:22] three 13 ma'am b a's he was runner up for mvp three times [40:27] And, and, [40:28] Average 36 a game winner. His statistical resume is just overwhelming. And it's basically the Carl Malone situation. [40:36] I don't know what to do with Harden.

[40:38] Yeah, well, I mean, here's the thing. [40:40] And I spent some time. [40:43] With what do they call basketball reference now? Is it basketball stat head? Stat head basketball? Stat head has, yeah, it's part of basketball reference. Yeah. [40:50] If you side by side, [40:53] James Harden. [40:55] and Charles Barkley. [40:57] You would be surprised. [41:00] Yeah, I think we've had... [41:02] Now, 25 or 30 years, [41:04] of Charles in our lives and the cultural force. He's an icon. He's an NBA icon. I have Barkley much higher than these guys.

You do. Yeah, he was in the mid-20s for me when I did the book. [41:16] Right. [41:17] Thank you. [41:18] It's going to be tough. I think as we... [41:21] Try and process the NBA experience. [41:24] from the kind of this era... [41:27] And going forward, what do we do with a player like James Harden? And how do you contextualize his inability to, [41:36] He's only been to one finals. It was he was coming off the bench for Oklahoma City. Yeah, he never made the finals as a starter. [41:43] He was one in four in conference finals in general.

He's 17 and 17 in playoff series. [41:49] And... [41:50] you know, one of the conference finals he made, [41:52] They benched him against the Clippers in game six and came back with the bench guys when the game was over. Like he was about to get bounced in that. But, you know, this is one of those cases where sadly we were there. [42:03] The statistical resume was there, but ultimately, the number one value we have with all this stuff is... [42:10] How did you perform when it truly mattered? [42:14] Did you understand the secret?

Could you elevate your team around you? And he just could never do it. [42:20] really at any point in his career, right? [42:22] Barkley, [42:23] is a good example because the 93 Suns, [42:27] Um, [42:28] They come as close as you're going to get to winning the title, and they lose to the best player of all time, who's at his absolute fucking apex. [42:34] Right. [42:35] That's the only reason he didn't win the title. And I don't know how much I can hold that against him because I don't feel like – I feel like he did everything possible in that finals.

And we know what happened. Kevin Johnson stunk in those first two games. [42:46] That's why they lost the finals. [42:48] The Boasting was kind of ready to be beaten. [42:51] The question with Harden, and obviously you and I share the same kind of perspective on him. We've watched it. He was there present for us in all of our NBA hoops fandom. [43:06] He's been in our lives for so long. [43:09] Will history... [43:11] B. [43:12] more gracious towards him. Like it's happening with Carl Mullen right now, basketball-wise, not personality. Personal-wise.

Right, because the era in which Harden, Harden in the West, against the teams that he went up against, [43:26] Not being able to topple Golden State, you know, catching the end of the Spurs run. You know, is it can we legitimately pin responsibility on him for the for his inability to take a team? I think we can in 18 and 19. [43:43] Okay? [43:44] Um, [43:45] Because... [43:46] 18 was sitting there for them and they didn't win. And basically because he didn't do the [43:52] have the Jalen Brunson game. [43:53] 19, Durant's out.

[43:55] And they have six at home against Curry. [43:59] and Curry has what, two points in the first half, or one point, I can't remember, and Golden State's ready to be taken down, and they just couldn't do it. The fundamental question here, because George Kervin's another one, I have him and Harden right next to each other, [44:12] very similar careers. [44:14] And Girvin's big moment was the 1979 movie. [44:17] Eastern Conference Finals against your beloved Washington Bullets. [44:21] up 3-1 in this series and can't close him. And if he gets to that finals...

[44:28] And they're, [44:30] probably favored to... [44:31] to beat Seattle at that point. And they win the tech. Like it's, it's a, [44:35] Complete what if. But fundamentally, this comes down to this. [44:41] You're a Washington fan. [44:44] I'm giving you the ability. You can have Harden or Brunson for their entire careers. [44:51] Wow. [44:52] from what you've just witnessed. [44:54] Which guy would you rather have? And we don't know how it's going to end with Brunson. He's only been in the league eight years. [45:00] But your whole goal is, I just want to win the title.

Are you taking James Harden or are you taking Jalen Brunson? I mean, it's a no-brainer. It's easy. Flags fly forever. The only thing that matters is the chip. That's why the pyramid is tilted the way it's tilted. You have to have the rings. And it's not just Brunson delivering. It would be really curious how we would regard Iverson. [45:30] That Sixers team is like, wow, look at the surrounding cast here. Built around... [45:34] all his strengths and weaknesses. Right. If they had somehow pulled something out, that, you know, that, but Brunson's a different cat, a different animal altogether.

He is such an important element of that cohesive team that the Knicks have built. And yet when there's six minutes left in the game and the Knicks could be down a dozen points, you never, never, never think for a second that they don't have a chance to win as long as that dude has the ball in his hands. [46:04] and he's more healthy than not. You know what got lost in the Brunson game? [46:10] celebration over these last two weeks. He was the one that got the ball in game two when Wemby threw it off Castle's back and got Wemby to foul him.

[46:18] Yes. Like that. [46:19] One of the things with Brunson that I've appreciated... And remember, he missed one of the free throws, but go ahead. Yeah, he did. [46:25] But one of the things I appreciate about him is it's like, oh, you got to pick on Brunson, pick on Brunson. [46:30] much like Jason Kidd and some of these other dudes is actually like sometimes an asset defensively, like he's fucking annoying to play against. He's taking charges all the time. He's getting steals. He's in, [46:41] in the right spots. But you look at [46:44] his.

[46:45] He's four years in the playoffs now. [46:48] It's 29 a game. [46:50] This is four years across the board, like a lot of playoff games, 29 a game, 26 finals. He was [46:56] 33, 4, and 5. [46:58] Played 39.2 minutes a game. [47:01] Um, [47:02] It's just better than anything James Harden ever did. And it was a higher level than anything James Harden ever did. And I'm sorry. And I just... [47:10] If I could have either career for the same reason out of when I did my book, I'd be [47:14] I would rather have Bill Walton...

[47:17] just so I could get those peaks versus David Robinson's entire career. I just would. [47:22] Because at least my only thing I want is the title. And I just know that if I have that guy, I have a better chance. And I... [47:29] That's not rings culture to me. [47:31] It's more like that. That's why I'm not discounting Barkley because I don't feel like Barkley did everything he could have done and they probably should have won the 93 finals. And he went against a fucking comet that we've never seen in our lives.

[47:43] That's the only reason he'd win. Karl Malone... [47:47] went against that same older version of the Comet, [47:50] And really fucked up in both finals. And not to mention some of the other stuff that happened. It's hard to separate that from his history. [47:57] So I do value that stuff because the only goal is to win the title. I don't care about your career. [48:02] I care about your career in the context of did it produce championships? [48:07] and chances to win championships. So with Brunson... [48:11] I don't know.

So... [48:14] I have him at 40. [48:15] which I sent to you. [48:17] Yeah. My only quibble [48:19] Because it was in the vicinity of the Bill Walton range, and I think that's fair to [48:25] put him near him. [48:27] You had him one spot ahead of Frazier. [48:30] I did. [48:31] I think they should at least be tied until we get a little more. I'm happy to flip them. This is why I wanted to have you on. So you would put... [48:40] So this opens the... [48:42] Different conversation because greatest Nick of all time should probably have the higher pyramid ranking, right?

[48:48] Sure. And I'm all ears. I'll listen to everybody, all the smart folks that will be doing this greatest mix of all time. It is appropriate for that conversation to be had. Now, you saw Rick Brunson do the well, Patrick Ewing's the greatest Nick. That was, you know, that was nice. That's a you know, I understand the gesture. He's not that that they're making. So the thing with Frazier, two titles, not one. [49:14] Played one of the great game sevens ever in 1970. So he matches Brunson there. 35 and 19.

I think he had six deals. Like demolished Jerry West. [49:23] And then, uh, [49:24] was probably the best defensive guard of... [49:29] the first 35 years of the league, not to mention all the other stuff, his career was shorter because everyone's career was shorter back then. Like, I'd love to see... [49:36] The guys now... [49:38] Do you think LeBron would have played... [49:41] 20, how many years did he have to? 23? [49:43] So playing 23 years in Converse with no VersaClimber and flying coach, guess what? He's not. [49:50] So you got to factor that in too.

All right. I'm fine with Frazier over Brunson. [49:54] But Brunson has a chance to pass them with a couple more... [49:58] Great seasons. He's sitting right there. He's only halfway through his career. Let's let him get there. And there will be now. Yeah, go ahead.