LIVE(ish) from the Obama Presidential Center

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Right now, our listeners will get 50% off a new system [00:50] your first month is free. Just visit com slash crooked. That's half off at com slash crooked. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. [01:01] *Music* [01:21] Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. I'm Jon Lovett. Tommy Vitor. We are coming to you from the Obama Presidential Center in Chicago. I think this is the... [01:30] First ever podcast recorded from the Obama Presidential Center. I just made that up. Yeah. But I think it's a reading library. I mean, it opened today, so.

That's what I'm saying. It opened today. So I think that we. Yeah. Yeah. How are you? Nice. It's really good. And it's really good. Thank you. This is the beautiful presidential reading room in the branch of the Chicago Public Library. I don't see our book. Yeah. What the. You should probably donate one. Maybe the children's section here. Do we see Dan's books anywhere? I don't see Dan's book. Okay. [02:00] but I can't see it. Oh, I see Life of Pi. Anyway, we'll come back to this. I see What It Takes.

Oh, I see my book right there. Oh, we saw Dan's book. Two over from What It Takes. Now, if you're just listening on the audio, I know this is riveting. Us looking around at the books. Hey, let's stop navel-gazing about the books and start navel-gazing about the event. [02:20] So we just came from the event and we just toured the [02:23] museum for the first time. Are we calling it museum? The center. [02:27] Library? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's the Obama Presidential Center is the official name. And we just took a little tour.

What did you guys think? [02:34] Not of the event, of what we just saw on all the floors. [02:38] It's, I mean, obviously very emotional. [02:40] for us to walk through it and see from the beginning of the campaign, through the White House, the good moments, the bad moments. [02:46] I mean, it's really, it's very, very powerful. Yeah. Love it. How do you feel about what you tried so hard to stop from happening? Yeah, I mean, look, I think. So poorly tried. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that the beginning of the museum, about the ways in which I couldn't prevent this from happening, and as you move up through the floors, I become more and more excited to be a part of it.

[03:08] Every time we went by an exhibit and wanted to, like, take a picture there, I love it, would say, like, no, no, no, this is stolen valor. I can't do it. [03:16] I feel like I can celebrate. But when it's the signed, sealed, delivered speech in New Hampshire, I feel like, well, I was kind of on the other side of that. [03:25] It was weird when you just started yelling about caucus rules. That was strange. Yeah, superdelegates are very legitimate, the superdelegates. It's part of the process. Respect the process.

[03:35] It's strange to see something set up. It's great to experience it for us, but it isn't really set up for us. It's set up to kind of take people through something they might not know about, and it is set up for a longer timeline. It's set up for people to experience over a very long time, and it is... [03:51] interesting to see. [03:53] things you experienced written in just such a... [03:56] declarative past tense. Like, this is what happened. This was the history of this moment. Right. It's history now.

It's history. We're so old. Our jobs in a museum. [04:08] Yeah, that is true. Tommy, what'd you think? I mean, the museum's amazing. Everyone should come check it out. I mean, Michelle Obama talked about how they wanted it to be interactive. So there's lots of exhibits and speeches and stories of individual people, but you can shoot hoops. And we're literally in a library where you can take out a book or you can hang out and do a picnic. I think the thing [04:26] been amazing for me and emotional is just, um, all the people we've gotten to just run into.

It's like, when I go back to DC, you run into a lot of people and a lot of the time you, you don't want to run into them here. I've run into a lot of people and every time it's like, I'm so excited to see this person. It's a blast from the past. Like Hannah and I, uh, we're dealing with a snafu on our bracelets to get in. And we ended up in a 10 minute line behind Admiral McRaven. And I was like, Oh Hannah, this is the guy who did the bin Laden operation.

[04:56] That's a conversation we don't have every day. His bracelet was also incorrect. It was. He was not allowed into the event, unfortunately. Our friend Joshua Dubois, who's like we've known forever, who used to play pranks in the office and one time changed it. So my outlook, every time I wrote the word the, it autocorrected to bag of assholes. He gave the prayer an invocation. I just want to say that when Tommy realized this, he didn't think it was a prank. And Tommy's just typing emails. And he's like, we were in the Senate office at the time.

It's 2006. [05:26] time I write an email, all of a sudden it just says bag of assholes. It's like, I don't, I'm sure. I was like, I'm almost positive. I didn't write bag of assholes in this email. How are you not more sure? It's like when that reporter thought that she was hacked because she'd spilled water on her space bar. It was the first story I thought of and I'm like, and now he's the pastor at this event. Josh walked up to me last night and said, what's up you bag of assholes?

Anyway, Eddie Vedder was here. He did a musical number with some 13 to 14 year old kids. They composed it, [05:56] in front of four presidents of the United States. The whole thing has just been... [06:01] It's very cool and inspiring and a home game for us. The other thing about the museum just that I think is really noteworthy is it is about... [06:09] like how people can learn from, [06:13] what Obama did, what people write on Obama did and do similar things going forward. Like the whole idea is to inspire people to take action.

[06:23] their community, their country, their lives in their own hands and try to bring change. Like that's the entire thing from top to bottom. And every place of this is about like the core principle. Yeah, he's he's a very young ex-president, as he mentioned today. Not that young, but young enough. And also started as a community organizer here in Chicago. And so I do think that they were very, you know, the intention of the whole museum or in the whole center from the beginning was that it wasn't just like somewhere we could

[06:53] original presidential library, but that it would be a place, be a community center where like people can go be inspired to, um, you know, run for office or help their community or, um, and so I really think they achieved that. I, I love the museum. I mean, I went, uh, I first came Tuesday with Emily and the kids, Charlie and Teddy, and they lasted a couple hours before, uh, before Teddy had a, had a meltdown when he tried to eat the fake apple in the fake Oval Office. Didn't go well.

Didn't, couldn't eat it. Wanted a real apple. Yeah. Cried a lot. We left in there. [07:23] I do think that the campaign, there's a whole level dedicated to the campaign. And it tells the whole story of the campaign from beginning to end. And the last panel after you watch the video is Grant Park. And the way they tell the Grant Park story is through newscasts from all over the world announcing that he won. And it just like interviews people in like Africa and people in Europe and people in like Selma here and just talking about what it meant to them.

And I was just watching that. [07:53] This is a great country. We complain about it a lot, and there's a lot of bad things going on right now, but I'm like, this is a great country. [08:01] We'll talk about the speeches more, but I was just thinking about nostalgia walking through the museum. There's a poll that came out the other day that said, which of the previous presidents do you think did the best job? Obama is the leading president of people who have a positive view of him in hindsight. [08:23] organizing community and democracy, civic responsibility, empathy, and, you know, the old-fashioned civic virtues.

And I did find myself thinking, walking around, okay, this was and is persuasive to people. [08:38] I'm leaving thinking, okay, but let's be honest, this museum is opening at a time in which Trump is part of the speeches, it is part of this event that people are aware of what's happening in the country. And what are the ways in which... [08:51] this was not made durable after, right? What are the ways in which either this vision of the country wasn't as persuasive as we hoped it would be, or we did not uphold it and use it to make the best case possible to prevent Trump from winning not once but twice.

And that was also on my mind because I'm not a nostalgic person by nature. And so I was sort of stuck on that. And I was trying to challenge myself to think, okay, this obviously is a vision that I respect [09:21] more people along after a bomb was done. It's funny. That was what was stuck in my head before coming here. I was thinking about it a lot and then having, I spent today listening to [09:32] President Obama and Michelle and going through the center. I think that the answer is at least their answer is that it's not ever going to be durable.

Like that is the whole point of not just America, but like human nature that like we're always going to have these moments where, you know, people's I was talking about better angels, people's worse angels take over and, and that's in progress doesn't happen in a straight line. And so, [09:58] I think their answer is, [10:01] everyone has to just get to work, right? And everyone has to just keep going and don't give into cynicism and don't give up. And the first part of the museum doesn't actually start with the Obama stories.

It actually starts with, [10:12] the key moments in history. They're like the one we're in right now where bad things are happening. [10:18] whether there are real problems in the country that are being changed, whether the civil rights movement, the suffrage movement, all of that stuff, the labor movement. And I think the answer to that is it's like at every point it's not always going to be good. [10:30] But every time it's been bad and we have dealt with it, it is because regular people came together. They started organizing. They started working.

They started voting. And they brought change. And I think the true message of that is we can do that again. And they didn't write – like obviously this museum was not made for the Trump era. Yeah. Because it's going to be around for 100, 200 years after that. But I – like and this is like always core – [10:53] in what Obama talked about, it's in the Selma speech that adorns the building itself, is that we are always going to have moments like these, and we're going to have to come together to get out of them.

[11:03] Maybe a few years from now, things will look much more like they did in 2008. [11:07] Maybe they'll look like 2016 again. Who knows? Yeah. Well, yeah, I think it's the idea that, yes, that is that you step back and say, all right, this is the path of progress. Two steps forward. One step back. There are times where people get into their fears and their whatever, their smallness. [11:24] But... [11:25] Part of the work of getting out of it is not just stepping back and saying we will come together and figure it out.

It's like what happened? Right? What were the ways in which this vision of America seemed to some people to be either false or hollow in some way or, you know, [11:42] not able to be replicated by the candidates that follow. - Two things, one, [11:47] Uh, back to Teddy. It's really cool. And a thing people probably didn't know that you could walk into the oval office and there was a bowl of apples on the coffee table between the two couches and people would just take them and eat them. And actually the actual bowl that was on Barack Obama's coffee table for eight years is now in this museum because our friend Ferial just had it at her house and now it's here.

That's I think a fun little anecdote people don't know. And two, on the speeches, I mean, I literally was just talking to Josh Shapiro, governor of Pennsylvania, [12:17] As I'm talking to Josh Piro, Hannah comes up and she's like, "Can we go send us some food?" Come on, come on. Anyway, he and I were talking about whether... That's Jewish energy to bring that. He and I were talking about whether... We watched the speech and felt like the reaction to the speech part of the conversation, like... [12:33] Do we think what he was saying is still real?

Like that there are that people really do want decency and to bring people together and a politics that just delivers for them? Because it's so easy to see the social media part of politics and the owning each other and the viciousness from Trump and the moments I feel myself falling into being a shittier person online. Yeah, like dunking on people on Twitter. And honestly, my reaction to Barack Obama's speech was it made me want to be a better person. [13:03] and more like civically engaged. [13:06] to pay more attention to the messages we're hearing out of people like Shapiro and James Tallarico that are asking us to kind of get back to that brand of politics.

I 1000% believe that the winning 2028 candidate, [13:19] will be someone who offers a version of that message. Yeah, I hope so. To turn the page on this era of division, of terribleness, for something better. It won't be exactly the same as Obama as much as the world has changed. Everyone's – we have a lot of calluses and scar tissue over the last decade, but something that is more like that than the liberal inverse of Trump. It's funny. I think just the nature of the trip, and we've been doing a whole bunch of things the last couple of days, that I haven't really been on my phone as much.

[13:49] to get service and then trying to like figure out how to get on the wifi and it just wasn't happening. And so like, I have seen no takes of any of the speeches, didn't know nothing, nothing what was happening. And it really like, I sat there like, good. I don't want to know what all the takes are out there of what this event is. And like letting all the cynicism creep back in because I felt like you, I'm like, it does make me want to be a better person. And Michelle, and we'll talk about her speech in a second, but she had this riff in the speech where she talked about how hope is a choice and, you know, it can just sound hokey when you just hear it like that.

[14:19] is like, yes, you can decide that things are going to be bad or that, you know, it's not worth trying or that. Or you can decide like, yeah, things could still be bad, but I'm actually just going to stop complaining and try and like put my shoulder to the wheel and see if I can make a difference. Yeah. I do think that part of the guy, you know, what is what is Trump's skill as a politician? And he can really make people's worst qualities just truer about them. He just has the ability to make something bad.

And we have good parts and bad parts in us. I mean, the other day, [14:49] we go to a tour show in Detroit and we say, is anyone here from Michigan? And someone raises their hand and it says they're safe. They're from Ohio. The whole crowd like booze them like fucking crazy. There's an ice agent in every heart. [15:00] And, but, [15:02] but so like there's this, what I liked about that part of them, Michelle's speech specifically is, uh, [15:08] Choosing Trump takes your agency, and we do not have to...

[15:14] ignore people's culpability the the harm of that choice the the fact that they could have made a different one right like we should remind we should take people hold people responsible and treat them like adults and i think uh [15:27] One thing that Barack Obama does as a politician is he tries to treat people like adults, and a politics that treats people like adults. The other thing he does that I think we as a party are sometimes missing is he is... [15:40] unabashedly patriotic and talks about his love for the country.

That doesn't mean he hides the imperfections of the country. He is a living embodiment of [15:48] the worst stains in our history, but he is patriotic and he talks about the love of the country. And I think people want that and they want to be a part of a movement that is patriotic. And I was reminded of this when we went to the, I went to the USA Paraguay soccer game the other day and like just being with thousands of people chanting USA, USA, and like loving their country and cheering for the players.

And like the fact that a bunch of them are immigrants, right? And one was like literally like his mother, like the Ben Shapiro's out there calling him an anchor baby, [16:18] is so important. I talked to Jerusalem Dempsis about this for Offline this week, and she was saying there's this, I haven't seen it, but there's this whole discourse online around the World Cup where all of these people are coming to America, and then they're like posting, America's really great, and people are so nice. They're going to Waffle House for the first time.

Because of everything that they hear about Trump, they thought coming here would be this like dark dystopian, and they're like, this is a wonderful country, and I thought about that walking through the center too, and I was like, this is, and I, this has been my feeling the last two days here, I was like, this is a fucking great country, like it is a great country. [16:48] and just because Trump is president and we don't like what's happening, it doesn't mean that we should say, oh, this country sucks now. It doesn't.

Don't let them take this from you. Yeah, I think holding just the, like, this is not who we are. Well, you know, Trump is who we are, but also what this represents who we are, too. The part where, in the speech where he started, he talked about the 250th anniversary, and it just was a small moment for me of just, like, there's so much noise around Trump politicizing the 250th birthday and the UFC fight on the lawn and the Trump rally on the National Mall [17:18] pool and all the rest.

And... [17:20] That's a terrible price, just that this is what he's doing with this moment. But also the opportunity cost, just like what it would have been like to have literally any other person in that job who just had some modicum of patriotism or respect for the country to understand how to make it a genuinely uniting moment. And the fact that he doesn't even have a shred of it. I know, I keep thinking about that. Could have been a Republican president. Like, I wouldn't have been happy about that. But, like, could have been a Republican president that brought the country together on America's 250th?

Easily. I have no doubt that George W. Bush is 250th in America. I think it would have annoyed me in certain respects. Yeah, sure. [17:50] but like you look like but there would have been really nice moments and we've been like okay I feel good it was nice also a sense of mission yeah when Obama gave a shout out he was like John McCain loved this country like I did like Mitt Romney did you know there was a nice bipartisan spirit to it that wasn't I thought corny and cliche yeah [18:12] Posse of America is brought to you by Bombas.

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Just happens forever. Exactly. You're never going to time the markets, people. You're [20:42] Just start investing now, keep going, forget you're even doing it, and you'll be like, whoa, I saved a lot of money. Trump figures out a deal to end the Iran war. Yeah, that'd be good. Sign up now and Acorns will boost your new account with a $5 bonus investment. Join the over 14 million all-time customers who have already saved and invested over $27 billion with Acorns. Head to com slash crooked or download the Acorns app to get started.

Paid non-client endorsement, compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. [21:12] to various factors such as customers' accounts, age, and investment settings. It does not include Acorns fees. Results do not predict or represent the performance of any Acorns portfolio. Investment results will vary. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors, LLC, and SEC Registered Investment Advisor view important disclosures at com slash crooked. [21:33] Speaking of that, I think we do have a clip from Obama's speech that we can play and then react to. [21:39] How are you? That's it Tommy. That's it. Tommy has the clip the exhibits in the center are not meant to evoke nostalgia for some gauzy bygone era.

[21:54] some unattainable past that we can dream about. [21:59] and say, oh, we miss you, Barak. [22:03] Thank you. [22:05] They're meant. [22:08] They're meant to remind us of who we can be. [22:14] To remind us of what's possible. [22:17] So we can forge ahead. [22:20] clear-eyed and confident [22:23] And do the work that still needs to be done. [22:26] I wanted to play that clip because I think he had done a few interviews before today where I think he got questions from reporters that were in the vein of... [22:38] like, isn't this nostalgia or isn't this like a long lost era?

And doesn't it feel like a different reality because of what we're dealing with right now? And he actually wanted to respond to that in the speech. And I think in a way, it's the mission of the whole center, which we were just talking about. And I think they're very sensitive to the idea that this is either a monument to them or about the accomplishments of the administration or about some gauzy past. [23:08] like a pep talk for America, which today was, I think, a badly needed one. But look, I think a lot of people are frustrated that he's not more engaged with kind of like the politics of the day to day.

And I think we've even at times expressed like wishing he was just talking about things. But he talked about the Twin Cities and the way they stood up to ICE and came together as a community. I thought that was clearly about this moment. Yeah. He talked about government is more than one that divvies up the spoils, that punishes enemies, that keeps those that are different from them in their place. I thought of George W. Bush. [23:38] he's like I do not believe how that's how the story of America ends like [23:42] We'll talk about Michelle's speech in a minute, which is a little more...

[23:45] uh directed at uh the trump administration but i thought obama's very much commenting on the politics of trumpet today i would just say criticizing museum for being too nostalgic is just idiotic it's just their point this museum looks backwards which way does your museum face i think it was at a new york times he said peter baker yes and it was like and i think i mean i get why reporters would write that right because we are living in this reality and then you step in [24:15] And, you know, what they're what they're really trying to say.

And this goes to your point about how people complain like Obama's not more involved in politics. And what Obama always says is, like, I don't want to be out there forever because I want the next generation of progressive leaders to to be out there and to, like, have their moment. And maybe the election cycle that happens. Right. And I think the point of the center and the point of the foundation. I'm losing with the football. [24:45] to train and inspire young leaders here and all over the world. And I think that is – it finally makes sense to me now because, like, it is nice when Obama goes out there and he's great on the campaign trail and he gives great speeches and he motivates people, and that's important to have in democratic politics.

But we do need leaders who are not Obama and who take the spotlight in the next 10 years, 20 years. Yeah, also, I don't – I agree with all that. But also, it's okay to be nostalgic. I'm not – like, nostalgia doesn't do it for me in the same way I'm not really, like, a hope person. I'm more of an anger and rage person. [25:15] - I'm sort of an experienced person. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, that's right. - And in small doses. - And especially when experience plus strength. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right.

Obviously as I've said, change equals. [25:27] one divided by... No, wait. Strength plus experience equals change, so change divided by strength plus experience equals one. But back to the museum. [25:38] It's okay to be nostalgic, right? Yes, this was a moment where people were really hopeful, and... [25:46] A lot of really good was a lot of good was done. A lot of things weren't finished. But people believed in the mission. They cared about it. They fought to make it happen. And they elected him twice. And it led to really good things.

That nostalgia is a good thing to feel. And there's a way in which to like. Especially if it inspires you to act. Yeah. Right. It's good to feel. But it's also good to be like, oh, well, then I'm going to go do something. And there's a whole and there's a lot of people who are very, very hyper engaged in politics. It applies to a lot of people that are partisan. It applies to a lot of people that are nonpartisan journalists. [26:16] they see that is inherently naive, that there's something inherently naive about having that warm and good feeling about politics in any way, that it's cringe, right?

I think it applies to us sometimes. Of course. I've been in those moments all the time. But I had this moment when I was watching. I think there was a moment where Bono was singing Michelle Mybelle. And boy, I have a photo. I'm cringing. I got a photo of Tommy. Just a full body cringe. And I get it. But why do we cringe? [26:46] or like a direction that we might agree with, but take something too far in a way that feels syrupy or saccharine in some way. And you were wondering, is he hitting on her?

Yeah, that was a word. Well, I mean, Obama did say, leave my wife, don't touch my wife. [27:00] The 2020 election, it was a thing you'd hear online that people were like, oh, we're just going to vote our way out of this problem? It's like, well, yeah. Actually, that's the whole thing. That's democracy. I mean, it's not the only thing you're going to do, but at some point you do have to vote. If you don't do it, a lot of the other stuff you're going to try isn't going to do much.

Right. Otherwise, it's not a democracy, and then we're the other system that we say that we're against. Right. So you do have to vote at some point. So let's talk about Michelle's speech. [27:30] on it. The native kids showing us that resilience and pride can never be stolen. [27:37] Thank you. [27:38] The 4-H'ers and FFA members with calluses on their hands from feeding livestock. The immigrants proving what it truly means to be a dreamer. These folks aren't Americans too. [27:57] They are America. They are the beating heart of this country.

[28:02] They are us and we are them. Deep down in our hearts and souls, we all know right from wrong. We know selflessness from greed, righteousness from injustice. All of us, all of us are created equal. That each of us is a child of God with inerrant value. [28:32] No one has the right to sit in judgment of who's American enough. [28:38] So I will say... [28:40] I, I get like a little misty when I saw the Grant Park panel at the center. But the first time this whole week that I actually just like cried was during her speech.

Oh, yeah, for sure. I saw the sign language interpreter wiping tears. I did too. I did too. It was a fantastic speech. I mean, it's like, it's almost cliche to say it. Michelle Obama always knocks her out of the park, but it really was this time. I thought Obama's speech was really good. [29:10] I'm trying to think of a bad Michelle. There's no, there's no, she, the, the, the part that also was really moving was she, she says at the beginning, I'm going to do what, you know, what Brock won't want me to do and just like brag about him.

And, and she talks about like how he carried himself, um, in the eight years as president. And that's what like really did it for me. Yeah. I lost it at that point. It is him crying. It is like, like what she said about him is like, what? [29:39] We know, but just like he is such like a decent human, like just truly to his core. [29:47] Decent. Like he's flawed, like he's a human, but he's a decent human. I think all the time about like the one thing, and this is like at the core of what Michelle was saying, but he's thinking all the time about how...

[29:59] And every – like I'd be in meetings with Obama where it would just be like people who you saw a lot. He would be pretty grumpy, right? Like shit is bad going on. But then someone would come in the room who would be like a younger staff briefing on something or someone coming in for a visit and he like instantly knew that that interaction with him – [30:17] Maybe that's the only time they'll ever be depressed in their life was going to be matter. Life-changing. Life-changing for them. And he wouldn't matter how shitty the day was.

He would pull it together and just like treat that person with the utmost respect and make that like a special moment. And that is like – [30:32] That to me has always summed up who he is. And it was really just powerful to hear Michelle talk about it that way. I always thought that... [30:42] There was an irony in... [30:44] The Obama campaign being about change and that that carrying him all the way to the nomination. But ultimately, he is able to defeat John McCain because in the weeks of the financial crisis, what actually carried him...

[30:56] all the way to the presidency, [30:58] which was not a quality that I think was necessary for his rise until then, was a kind of preternatural evenness, reliability, consistency, trustworthiness, a calm that was sort of in his bones and infused everything that he did. And it gave people the assurance, unspoken, that they could take a chance on him when John McCain was supposed to be the more senior and seasoned person, but had seemed erratic in the lead up to the election. And when people would say things like, which Michelle referenced, that, oh, he wasn't qualified, he wasn't this, he was that.

[31:28] why is he qualified? Well, look at what he is, look at how he is modeling what it means to be a senator and a candidate in a way that, say, Sarah Palin, right, who could claim a similar whatever experience in the public, in elected office that didn't have the same effect. And now we're all these years later, and it just stands in contrast to what Trump is. And the fact that there were so many Republicans who spent eight years denigrating him as a person, [31:58] or some evil and socialist sort of extreme force, when, of course, the whole time, he was this even-keeled, center-left, consensus-building, reliable figure, which now, in hindsight, the country terribly misses.

Yeah, I think, when I just think about why I was lucky to work for him, like, yeah, he was cool. Yes, he was a great communicator and speaker, but the thing, upon a long time of reflection, that I've come to realize was the best part about working for him, [32:28] you could go to him and he had a core [32:33] belief about whatever it was and that was from a good place that was from a sense of decency and like yes politics are part of everything but it's about doing the right thing and like you just never doubted that or like their motivation of their family and it's just like i'm contrast that to like you walk in the oval office now and they're fucking day trading on the war with iran i you know it's just insane where we've got one of my favorite lines about [33:03] um, [33:04] that Ta-Nehisi Coates line at the beginning of that long piece about him at the end of the administration, which was for eight years he walked on ice and never fell.

And it was about... [33:14] race and how he handled race and being the first black president. But I also think it's about [33:20] was about so much more than that, is that like, [33:22] The job president and the job of him being president and being the first black president, as Michelle also mentioned today, it requires so much care and thoughtfulness and like balance of so many different competing interests and competing desires within yourself and trying to channel your emotions and trying to suppress some emotions. [33:52] know, I think we all get that having been in politics.

Like we all do that. We've all done that throughout our time in politics as you realize that so much of the job is constant thinking about like, what is the right balance of this and that? And how do I not piss this person off? And how do I persuade this person? And like so much care goes into it. And the fact that he was able to do that and, and get through eight years, um, it's still intact. It's just like, you know, it's, it's inspiring. I think the, being the first black president,

[34:21] Like what Michelle said, like we like anyone who worked with him or worked from the very beginning knew the historic nature of his candidacy and the different set of rules are applied to him. And it's the same way different set of rules are applied to women candidates. And he refused to complain about it. He refused to complain about it. And he could and Michelle said like that was subtext of everything that we always talked about. But Michelle made it text. Right. And said very clearly that he for eight years could not make a mistake.

He could not slip up. He cannot lose his temper. He cannot lash out. He cannot send an angry tweet. [34:51] He had to bear the expectations and the pressure of being the first black president because how he did it was going to dictate everything. [35:00] If and when we had a second black president. Yeah, right. For example, literally just pointing out that Trayvon Martin looked like what his son would look like if he had a son. Right. She said that today. And I was like. [35:10] Yeah, she leaned in. Yeah.

And I think that I think she got some stuff off her chest today. Yeah, she always does. Yeah, it was great. It was it was my we should talk. Yeah, we should talk about like the sort of the backdrop of all of this invisible in the backdrop and sometimes not very visible as Trump. Yeah. And how they all kind of how they both handled that today. Yeah. Well, yeah, the the. [35:30] I always, it's funny. I felt the same way at the convention too, that you, when Michelle's speeches, there's like an edge and a kind of darkness to them that I'm like, Oh, I'm like, I'm, I'm always caught off guard by it.

I'm like, Oh, like, [35:43] she's pissed a little bit. She's going to say some things that she's feeling about what's going on right now. And it always works because I do think she taps. It matches what he does. It complements what he does. Because she understands how to use that feeling people have. [36:00] That's all. We're living through the Trump era. We're always a little bit mad. We're always a little bit upset. It's always there. It is a cloud over our society. And she just... [36:10] Without saying the name, she said, you know what?

That's part of today. And it makes me upset too, not just because of what's happening right now, but because of what... [36:19] the other standard that was applied [36:21] to Barack Obama when I saw what kind of a man he was. And the thing that I think will probably get clicky is like, you know, he actually won a peace prize, right? That was like a fun shot of Trump. The thing that I thought to your point, Lovett, about the darkness was failing to see the humanity in others puts us on a slippery slope when she was talking about immigration.

Right? She's like talking about this slide to fascism in her remarks. I can't remember who said this, but someone said about Michelle after her convention speech in 2024 that she is your friend. [36:50] who just tells you like it is. Does not beat around the bush, just tells you exactly what you need to hear. And her speech is always just reflective. Like there's no, like there's a way to make those points that are so subtle that like maybe, or you get it, but you've basically wasted a bunch of words. She just says it always.

And it's what makes it so powerful. I always roll my eyes when people are like, [37:09] Michelle Obama should run for president because we obviously know she's never going to run for anything because she despises politics. But again, today, like halfway through the speech, as I was crying and then Emily was also crying next to me. She was like, I mean, maybe she should run for something. I had the same exact thought. She's like, are we crazy? I had the same thought, then I slapped myself. I'm like, well, we can want it all we want.

She's not going to do it. But she can command a stage. [37:33] By the way, we're in a working building. You might hear some background noise. [37:43] Positive America is brought to you by com. We could all use a few more hours, even minutes in the day for ourselves. Skip your trip to the post office and save some precious time with com. With com, you can print postage and shipping labels from your computer or phone 24-7 with up to 90% off UPS, USPS, FedEx, and more. There's no lines. There's no trips.

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It's called Pod Save the UK. Pod Save the UK is a no bullshit, unabashedly progressive conversation about politics focused on the issues that matter most to the people of Britain. With all the changes in our government, including the fun revolving door of prime ministers we have here, there's always lots to talk about. And there's lots of fabulous guests to talk to. Journalists, politicians, experts, comedians and activists. We've had great comedians [39:43] Jones, Stuart Lee, Aisling B. We've also had Tommy Vitor on, who may be our boss. We still don't know.

We're not quite clear on who our boss is. I thought it might be Tommy Vitor. I thought it might be Jon Favreau. [39:56] I don't know if it's John Lovett. It's hard to say. It's not clear to us who our bosses are. Some of our listeners call us irreverent, but not stupid. I object to that. I'm deeply stupid. It doesn't sound too bad. So look, come check us out. Come join us. Pod Save the UK every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. [40:14] One more thing before we move on. Dan, you had a message box today in honor of today.

I did. About what Democrats can learn from Barack Obama, which I thought would be a nice way to end this section. Well, look, I think – [40:31] And Obama says every election cycle, he goes out, he goes on the trail, and everyone says, like, why can't more Democrats talk like this? And Obama's obviously, as we all know, and everybody's a generationally talented. [40:43] And so just telling people to be more like Obama is not helpful advice. It's like, be more like Michael Jordan. Dunk more. Yeah. But I think there are a few things that any...

[40:53] can take from him. I'll just give you a couple. One is... [40:57] like in Tommy, you mentioned this, is that there is this inherent patriotism in everything he says. Like he owns it. He will not let Republicans take patriotism. He is not – he will – and often does talk about all the flaws in this country, but makes the point about what a special place is that you heard that today. The other one is that he – [41:17] I remember this. Early on in the administration, we were going to do a YouTube town hall, which was very innovative at the time, which was just a town hall that streamed on the internet.

But YouTube was hosting it. [41:31] I guess in YouTube comments, I can't remember, but the number one topic by far was legalization of marijuana. [41:38] And so we went in to say, like, this is the one question, but you don't like we don't have to take it. And he's like. [41:45] You always have to talk to these like, well, if it's the number one question, we're going to talk about it. Yeah, talk about the thing. Because he like he will always say is like you always have to talk about the thing, right?

The elephant in the room. You cannot avoid it. Just take it head on. You know, then the last thing I think is really powerful is we talk all the time about like how Democrats need a better affordability message, economic message, all this. And what Obama always understood is that. [42:09] the discussion of the economy is not really about policy. It's not about how many times you say affordability. It's not whether you say bottom-up or middle-out. It is a story about values, about who you're fighting for and who you're fighting against.

That is the frame to bring to all of this. Ultimately, I think the biggest thing to take from Obama over the whole time is – [42:30] that politics and messaging is a storytelling exercise. [42:32] It's not a slogan. It's not a soundbite. It's not a tweet. It is an overall narrative about the country, about why you are the person who should be elected, why the other side should not be elected, and fitting things into those stories. [42:46] What do you have to say about this moment that we're in right now in the country and where you want to take us?

What do you have to say about it? And everything has to flow from there. Message flows from there. Policy flows from there. That's where you have to start. And Michelle and Barack Obama have something to say today, right? And people can have something completely different to say, but you still need to run for president having something to say about this moment that is beyond just Donald Trump and what policies you want to enact when you're president. Okay. [43:16] because I guess news has been happening. We've not had access to it, but we hear it's happening.

We got the text of the Iran deal, apparently, the MOU. And boy, is it a stinker. Tommy, was the Treaty of Versailles an MOU? I don't know. That's a good question. [43:32] Yeah, so we have a Trudy of Versailles. He signed it in Versailles with Macron. Which is an insane choice. Wait a second. Didn't they auto-pin it? I'm sorry. I'm learning this in real time. You're telling me they signed this... [43:44] Piece of paper in literal Versailles? Yes, dude. He stayed an extra day just to go have dinner in Versailles.

He's like, it's real gold. And it's not even a signing ceremony. It was just like he decided to just sign it in Versailles. That's crazy. Yeah. And it's like the 20th crazy thing about the text. Versailles. I guess the administration official read all the text of the MOU. You couldn't just copy paste? Why? Bloomberg got it, and then CNN got it, I think. But then the administration, Stephen Chung, was like, they're just wrong. [44:14] Dude, I got it from the president of Iran's Twitter. And the real one ended up being like a couple words were different, but not anything significant.

So the Memorandum of Understanding, the MOU, the Treaty of Versailles. The MOU of Versailles. Yeah. [44:28] We got episode title. MOU of Versailles, right, yeah. The memo calls for the suspension of the naval blockade of Iran's ports and for Iran to use its best efforts to allow traffic through the Strait of Hormuz without tolls. Try your best. For 60 days. It calls for a permanent end to a war in Israel and Lebanon. [44:45] Iran is allowed to resume exporting oil, will get access to a $300 billion redevelopment and reconstruction fund.

The MOU creates a six-day window for negotiations over Iran's nuclear program. And in the meantime, Iran reaffirms its longstanding commitment not to procure or develop nukes. So it's not playing super well. No. You got your Bill Cassidy's, John Cornyn's, all the people who feel liberated now that Trump has defeated them. [45:14] some criticism. Other Republicans are just sort of hiding. So funny, these guys. He threw off a mountain, and then while you're rolling down towards your demise over Cliff... It's bad! Yeah. Actually, I never liked you! [45:28] The Iran hawks are very mad.

You've probably... Oh, yeah. You probably consumed a lot more of Mark Levin content. Are those Ben Shapiro's tears in there? I've been watching some fan clips. I might have downloaded a commentary podcast from John Podhors. [45:44] an incognito window. [45:52] Here's a clip of Trump talking about the MOU of Versailles in France. And it's a memorandum of understanding. If it doesn't get done in 60 days, that's all right. We go back to bombing. Unlike Barack Hussein Obama, who sent Iran pallets of cash and any relief they receive under this deal, they'll have to get based on merit.

And it won't be from us. [46:14] many things but some people may want to invest I said well what am I going to do am I going to let Saudi Arabia have missiles but they can't have them [46:23] Yes, sir. Missiles aren't the problem. Missiles, they hurt a little location, but they don't blow up the planet. [46:30] And in all fairness to Bibi Netanyahu, who happens to be a good man, gets a little excited sometimes. We have a little dispute over Lebanon. I say you can do a little softer touch, Bibi Netanyahu.

[46:42] You don't have to knock down a building every time somebody walks into it. [46:45] from hezbollah yeah it's true that was that that got me i'm sorry that got another one too is like well every time the best uh best case the other line was uh you shoot a couple missiles down they don't hurt you by the desert you're knocking down a building in beirut it was like imagine the the the the shit a democrat oh my god the shit that we brought down on these people and i'm sorry no i just the idea the number of times these fucking anti-jcpoa people were like this doesn't even address ballistic missiles ballistic missiles ballistic missiles proxies this is a million

[47:15] Why the deal is so shameful. You're going to give them money, but they're not addressing the core problem of the ballistic missiles and the cotton Hezbollah and their proxies. And then Trump gives up completely. And three hundred billion dollars is what? Twice, three times, four times as much as what was ever contemplated by the Iran deal. They got an immediate license to sell oil and gas. So they're going to be making money off of that. Then they're clearly planning to. [47:38] you know, they call it fees, but they're going to be toll ships in the straight-up Hormuz.

Iran's going to make so much money off of this. I mean, look, big picture, the best outcome is the war being over. So, like, I'm happy. The original sin here is this war starting. And the best thing that can come out of this is that the fucking Lindsey Graham, Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, Neocon Hawk worldview is smothered to death, right? And that Trump hates these people and that he runs them out of C. But they cleaned his clock in this deal. And then just hearing him [48:07] Just on this ballistic missile thing, clearly the reason you go to the core national security priority with Iran is preventing them from getting a nuclear weapon, right?

Like nonproliferation is a good thing generally. I think the way you do that is through negotiations, not bombing them. We did fuck up a lot of their... [48:25] but whatever, they can rebuild that. But to hear Trump from going from these maximalist positions to being like, eh, who cares about the nuclear dust? We got eyes on it. Maybe we'll get it out. Maybe we won't. It's like head spinning. And then on the ballistic missiles, like remember when Rubio went up to Capitol Hill and he did that press conference where he blamed Israel and then ran away and didn't talk to the press for two months?

The core argument they were making there is that Iran was on the cusp of having a ballistic missile arsenal that would make their nuclear weapons program like, [48:54] and we couldn't go after it. Oh, right. And now Trump is like, eh, right. [48:58] Who gives a fuck? They can have some ballistic missiles. It's no big deal. If the Saudi Arabia... Ruby also says that our goal is to stop them from their ability to project power in the region. Ballistic missiles is how you project power. It is the definition of their power in the region.

Having read the MOU this morning, the text, I was like, did we get anything from this? No. The Strait. The theoretical opening of the Strait for 60 days. The theoretical opening of the Strait that Iran and Oman are going to jointly control and can charge fees whenever they want. [49:28] and controlled by no one, 'cause it was international waters, right? And there were no tolls. So, like, I don't think we got [49:34] Anything. And the theory of the case on the nuclear negotiations is that your leverage is military action and sanctions.

And he just gave up both of those in advance of the 60 days of talks over the nuclear program. And he says, like, oh, we can just go back to bombing them. But no, you won't. Iran knows that as we get closer to the midterms, he's not going to go back to bombing them. They shouldn't go back to bombing them. They're not going to get bombed out of their nuclear know-how. We just unleashed a bombing campaign for weeks. It cost us tens of billions of dollars. [50:04] in Versailles, so I don't know what additional bombs are going to do for anybody.

The other thing is, I don't know if you're going to go to it, but you had Vance sort of brushing back the Iran hawks and specifically referring to pro-Israel Iran hawks saying, Trump is the only leader on earth that is sympathetic to Israel's point of view, and we're the leader of the world's superpower, which I... [50:31] The for for Vance, I'm glad Vance said that, right? It's like, look at what for all these people that claim to be so pro-Israel, right, that have been that have that have turned APAC into this partisan weapon that have alienated Democrats that have that have turned Israel into pariah state.

Do you feel good about where where Israel is at now? Alone in the world, beholden on Donald Trump, a guy that does not give a fuck what happens, who could turn on a dime that do you think this was a long term great play? [51:01] Israel has never been more unpopular in its entire history. It's never been more isolated. You guys feel good about where you landed after all this while calling everybody out there anti-Semites and anti-Israel? You think the people that might have been saying that Benjamin Netanyahu was terrible for Israel might have had a fucking point rather than calling us all what self-hating Jews?

Like, [51:19] Anyway, that's a little point I wanted to make about that.