2026 Finals Lessons, Giannis’s Next Stop, Brunson’s Apex, and Mike Brown’s Magic Touch With Doc Rivers

[00:00] This episode is brought to you by TikTok. Did you know you can use TikTok to connect even more with the sports you love? It's not just highlights, it's everything around the game, including the sports community. Find breakdowns of classic basketball plays, deep dives on baseball stats, even videos on how athletes train and recover. [00:17] There are people teaching strategy, sports, history, even ways to improve your jump shot. [00:22] It's kind of like the biggest locker room ever and everyone's sharing what they know. [00:26] on TikTok. [00:28]. [00:33] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by PayPal, [00:36] We are also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network.

[00:40] where you can find the new episode of the Rewatchables. We put it up Sunday night. Hand That Rocks the Cradle, part of From Hell Month. The next one is going to be Domestic Disturbance. [00:50] with John Travolta and Vince Vaughn. This movie's really something. It's on Netflix right now if you want to go check it out. Don't forget all our basketball and soccer coverage. I'm loving the World Cup. The World Cup's been fantastic. You can check out the beautiful pod with Adam Friedland. And Chris Ryan has been popping on there a bunch.

We've had a whole bunch of fun guests. That's on Adam's feed. Ringer Gambling Show as well. A lot of good gambling tips. I'm going to have Dibundo on, I think, at the end of the week to talk even more soccer. [01:20] amazing USA game on Friday. Can't wait for that. Alright, Doc Rivers, he came here for a game, or didn't come here, but we did a podcast together after game one. Have not talked to him since the finals. [01:33] Just a lot of big historical stuff coming from that finals. A lot of strategy stuff.

We had to talk Giannis, what we think is going to happen this summer with all different teams. Favorite players, refs, all kinds of things from his last season with the Bucs. And he came over, which was great. So we're going to take a break. [01:52] Pearl Jam, and then [01:54] In the house. Back reverse, next. [01:56] This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by PayPal. [02:00] You know a clutch move when you see one? A no-look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steal? Well, imagine if your wallet [02:06] could pull off moves like that.

[02:08] That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now, you can find offers from hundreds of brands. [02:12] like Sony, Allbirds, and Viator. [02:15] Save offers before you check out. [02:17] earn unlimited rewards. Plus you can add those rewards on top of credit card points, [02:22] Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. [02:26] Save those offers, start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See com slash rewards terms, credit card points subject to issuers. [02:36] terms and conditions. [03:04] All right, Doc Rivers is here in studio. This is great. [03:09] Look at this.

This is nice. This has got posters, people you played with in the jam session. Yeah. I see Austin Carr up here, which I was telling you my son, Austin Rivers, was named after. He played with my uncle, Jim Brewer. [03:19] Did you have a Nike poster or no? No. You had a Reebok poster. I had a Reebok poster. That's what it was. Yeah, yeah. [03:26] I got to get that, baby. I got to hunt that down. I have to get that again. [03:30] We have so much to talk about, but let's do finals because you never talked about that.

So big picture – [03:36] levitating over everybody what'd you think like what was your big takeaway from that series i wanted more of was the first take you know [03:45] It was interesting, Bill. I played for the Knicks and I played for the Spurs. Right. And so I caught myself going back and forth, you know, um, [03:55] You know, I was a Nick longer, so probably lean more that way. Right. Um, [04:01] You know, but I just wanted more basketball. And it got to the point where, [04:07] My son Spencer said it because he was cheering for the Spurs because when he grew up, he was living in San Antonio.

Right. Right. [04:14] So he's cheering for the Spurs and he says, I don't want any more basketball. And I said, what? He's like. [04:19] I can't take [04:21] Them doing the same thing. [04:24] Every game. Karaoke. Getting out to a lead, losing the lead. Here comes Brunson. Here it comes down the stretch of the game. Yeah. But let's take a snapshot of the whole series. There was a lot of interesting things that happened to me. Obviously, [04:40] You know, the Wimby turnover, the past game, too. But I thought where the game in the series changed was after game three.

[04:52] After San Antonio won, and Mike Brown walked into San Antonio, [04:58] the media room and complained about files. And I thought, [05:02] I didn't think it at the time. [05:05] I thought it was a brilliant thing to do. I don't think, [05:08] That's why he was doing it. And maybe he was. [05:12] But if you look from that point on, [05:14] how it was called against him, Bronson, like game five, he had 18 free throws. Right. The comeback game, and I talked about this with you, [05:27] where everybody missed, in my opinion, it wasn't even talked about, was Castle.

[05:33] Got in foul trouble right before the second quarter. They had to take him out. That's when Brunson got cooking. Yeah. He picked up his fourth. [05:40] two or three minutes into the third quarter. It was two minutes in. Yeah. So now he's off the floor again. Comes back in, picks up his fifth. [05:48] So Bronson, [05:49] That whole 29-point stretch did it without having to deal with Castle. Yeah. And I thought. [05:57] That was huge for the Knicks and for Brunson. [06:02] Well then it felt like it affected Castle in game 5 He was bad in game 5 It was like he lost his mojo And defensively

[06:11] You know, all series against Oklahoma, against everybody, you've been able to be physical and been up. And now he was thinking about it. You could see he was worried about it. You look at those last two drives by Brunson that they hadn't done that all series. Yeah, they wasn't going to let them do it. They wasn't going to let them just go down the lane because they're more physical on them. But they were concerned about fouls where I thought, you know, you always go, well, what could Mitch have done?

And listen, if I was coaching this first, I wouldn't have thought of this either at the time because it wouldn't have been on my mind. [06:41] game. But [06:44] If you watch the series, who was fouled the most, Brunson or Wimby? [06:50] Wemby. Yeah, probably Wemby, at least even. Right. [06:54] But no one said anything about it. [06:56] And the difference was Wimby was fouled more off the ball every time he cut, every time he moved. I mean, they were forming him. They were hitting him. Even the alleged flagrant foul that Wimby really was just pushing down on Brunson.

Yeah. He was pushing down on him because Brunson was grabbing his jersey. And he turned around and was like, get off of me. [07:19] You know, so it looked better than worse than what it really was. Right. All right. So but I really thought that's where that series changed. And then San Antonio's inability to. [07:30] We talked about this in game one, I think. If it came down to a one-minute game, [07:36] the Nets are going to win. Yeah, even in Game 5, when it got to 83-83, it's like... [07:41] Yeah, and nothing...

[07:44] San Antonio really could have done about it because the Knicks know exactly who they are. Yeah. The last five minutes of a game. They know exactly what they're running. [07:53] They know exactly who they're running it through with Brunson. [07:58] They may change the guy who sets a pick. They usually... [08:02] put Towns in the parking lot because now you've just taken the center, guarding him. [08:08] Outside the paint. I like that phrase. Yeah. And so now you're left. If you go, you're leaving a great three-point shooter. Yeah. So I thought every game in those five games, the last four or five minutes, [08:22] It was this veteran...

[08:24] team that also had a closer. [08:27] I remember Hubie Brown. I remember when I first started coaching and [08:31] That was one of the things he told me. He's like, if you don't have a closer, Doc, I don't care how good your team is. He said, it's just like a company. Yeah. If you don't have a closer in your company that can close the deal, you are going to lose the deal. [08:45] And that's what it felt like. Now, well, ironically, the closer for San Antonio was Harper. Yeah. And they didn't.

[08:51] They didn't want to admit he had, and he probably wasn't 100% ready. Yeah, he wasn't ready for, even though they used him more in Game 5. He had a couple big plays down the street. He missed the layup. Yeah, missed the layup, though. [09:02] But Fox has been a great closer. [09:05] Fox has been in the top five of closers over the last four or five years. They lost his confidence, though. [09:11] I don't know if he lost his, he definitely lost something. I thought he lost his health first.

[09:16] and then confidence second. Because there wasn't the explosiveness getting in the basket in the same way. And then him getting in the basket then allows him to do that little turnaround eight-foot shot that he's great at. And he all plays off each other. You didn't hear one time [09:31] Mike Breen or Legs or any of them say, [09:35] Fox is the fastest guy in the NBA. [09:38] That's something you hear all year. That's where it was two years ago. Yeah, you didn't hear it one time. [09:42] And, you know, maybe the sprained ankle had some impact on him.

It definitely had on the shooting. [09:48] I thought what Mitch ran was terrific. They got that shot. Even in the game five, he came off that little we call it shake special. It's a play that I run. It's a secondary second pick and roll. When we 's, the guard comes off. Fox got to his breadbasket. I mean, right where he wanted. And it went close. [10:08] Right. And then he had the wide open three. So I never thought his shots were going in when it mattered, which is a bad place to get to.

Yeah, it got that. Yeah, it really did get to that point. Whereas OG, every shot I thought was going in. Yeah, even the bad shots. It's still going in. Even the bad shots you thought were going in. It's amazing what a series can do. [10:31] You know, but... [10:33] Like for Mitch, what that puts a coach in a tough spot. [10:37] You've had this closer that has been reliable. He's been reliable for you. In game seven in Oklahoma, he made every shot. Right. So you don't go away from it. [10:51] You know, you keep going to it.

[10:54] And give Mitch credit, he did, but it just kept coming up snake eyes. I mean, over and over again. You know, and Wimpy's going to learn a lot. He'll learn a lot from this series. Someone was talking the difference between him and Jabbar, and I said, well, Jabbar was still in college. [11:12] at that age. Right. Dave's a senior in UCLA probably. And Wimby's in the Game 7 of the NBA Finals. [11:18] So let's give him a great spirit. I do think it's a real issue that he can't seem to play more than 30 minutes.

[11:24] Well, I think he's he's like staggering around in these games. He's got 40 plus. But I think it's a league problem as much as a wimby problem. I think what the league does more. [11:39] is we give these minutes all year. [11:43] Without the thought of ramping guys up as the playoffs gets closer and closer. [11:49] You know who didn't do that was Tibbs. No. Tibbs ramped up from the start. And by the way, it may be... [11:55] I had a good email from a mailbag pot I did the other day about, [11:59] Tibbs kind of conditioned these guys to go these big minutes and carry these big loads.

Yeah, it's not. It wasn't something that they didn't expect. Yeah. Didn't want. Let me say this. Players want to play. Right. Players don't actually want to sit. Players are told to sit. [12:14] And then they are now in this culture where they accept what the trainers are telling them. I came from the culture... [12:22] He wasn't listening to the trainer. [12:24] You know, we told the trainer, [12:27] Like if I came to a game and Joel too was my trainer with the Atlanta Hawks. Yeah. Joe say, doc, I think you should sit.

[12:35] I would say, get out of here. [12:37] Right. And that was it. [12:39] That was the conversation. There was no more. But think about how much you were making in the Hawks compared to what these guys make now. These are like these $50 million a year properties. Look at me walk and move now. That's true. Maybe you should have listened to Joe. I should have listened to Joe more. That's a fact. I do think they are more careful because not only are they paying a ton of money for the best players, but...

[13:02] If something goes wrong with one of the best players, you almost, you don't have an out. [13:06] Like, look at you with Giannis this year. You ended your season single-handedly that he didn't play. Well, that's because we didn't have a second guy. Right. You know, teams... But most teams don't. Most teams do. You know, if Brunson went out, they still have Towns and other guys. You know? I don't know. But you're not going to win it. No. You're not going to win it. If your best guy is out of the playoffs...

[13:27] You may make a run. We made a run in 09, but you're not winning it. And where it always comes up when you have a guy out is that game one through five, if you can get there. It's game six and seven. Those are the games that are almost unwinnable for you. That happened in Oklahoma City. Yeah, because they didn't have that extra guy. It was obvious. Yeah. Yeah. [13:46] Um, [13:47] The Wemby part of this [13:50] So you think like, [13:51] He doesn't have the signature shot yet. Not yet.

[13:54] I love the shot he missed. [13:58] In game two. Which one? The one at the elbow. [14:01] That was a pick and roll, pop, right to the elbow. That's his breath. Yeah, I wonder what are his spots going to be. Yeah, the elbow will be one for sure. Yeah, like top of the foul line. Because it seems like he has a lot of trouble getting to the block. Kareem would do that weird thing where he would kind of back in and take these little weird steps. And then all of a sudden he was in his spot.

Once Kareem got to his spot and then the jump hook, I mean, there's a sky hook. No one's ever going to have that shot. If Wimmy can develop a sky hook, the game's over for everybody. [14:31] jump hook? [14:32] Everybody in the league has a jump. So I, um, I was on the phone with about four or five coaches. Yeah. Yeah. [14:39] day before yesterday. [14:41] And we were just talking about the game. [14:44] Right. And what would each guy do with Mimby? Hmm. [14:48] One of the guys said, you know, everybody's talking about the back to the basket.

The only thing with back to the basket is, yeah, we'll throw it to you and they're going to trap you. [14:56] And then you have to give it up. [14:57] And he said, no one is talking about Jack Sigma. [15:01] And he's like, what if Wimmy just face Sigma? What if he face you? [15:05] And if you don't, what can you do? [15:08] Well, that was the old Tim Duncan, right? Just face you up. Like 12 feet from the basket. And just shoot it. Like on the post, turn, face, face.

[15:15] Shoot it. If they come up on you, put it on the floor. [15:18] You know, I think that's a move he will have to develop. I remember sitting with Pop. [15:26] And watching Wimby practice his rookie year because I was doing TV. [15:32] For those two months? Yeah, for those two months. [15:37] I actually said it. And Pop's like, thank you. Thank you. I said, [15:41] Why is it fading? [15:43] Well, that was the Will Chamberlain problem. Yeah, just go up and shoot. Right. Why are you going backwards? Yeah, no one's going to block your shot.

Also, he's a great free throw shooter. Great. So that's the difference. He can really shoot the ball, and it's a balance issue at times with him. You can see he's off balance a lot. [15:59] Now, that may be strength. [16:01] uh, that may be balance and fatigue and fatigue. Yeah. Yeah. Kate. So what KG had, uh, he had the little turnaround near the baseline, but then I always liked when he faced up and he would do like the stutter step and stop and do the little jump counters to everything. Yeah.

Wembe, Wembe, great guy for, uh, [16:21] Wemby to work with. They have the same type of intensity. He's like a much taller Wemby. Yeah, KG's workouts are amazing. He used to put these shoes on the floor, which as a coach, I had never seen. We used cones. He would actually put two shoes and make them face like the player because he said, I want to attack the feet. [16:41] So he would just, he would stand there and he moved the shoes over and attack that. Then he put the two shoes over and attack that.

It was genius. So he would always look at the feet over anything else. Yeah. He wanted to attack the feet. And he would teach guys. If he saw one foot just turn, say he's dead. [16:58] He knew exactly what he was going to attack. So it was pretty impressive. I remember there was the Dave DeBusher thing where he always looked at the guy's eyes. Yeah. And he said, everybody who is about to shoot looks at the rim, no matter what they're doing. Eventually, they're going to look at the rim. Well, they have to.

And that's when I know. And he was like... [17:14] The only guy who never did it was Earl Monroe. [17:18] All of a sudden he was shooting and was like, you were looking over there. That's pretty impressive. But he said that was the only one. But he was like, I always followed the eyes. That's why he was so good defensively. So KG's looking at the feet. He's got the ball looking at it. He squares up and he looks at your feet. Yeah, even if Wemby had the Tim Duncan face up, KG...

[17:35] kind of stutter, step, stop, and he's shooting over you. [17:39] And then just like a seven foot jump hook. Yeah. But two more shots than he has now. Yeah. Just the face up to me is because you can't double team him. He sees you coming. [17:48] He will pick you apart. [17:49] And I think that's one thing they'll do in the end. And then more work at the elbows, because I thought he was very efficient there most of the season. [17:57] And it just seemed like they got away from him.

But I thought the physicality and the fatigue played a major factor. Well, they were doing a bunch of stuff with him, too, like – [18:06] on box outs that were like ramming him in the back. They hit him every chance they got. You have to. The other thing they did that Oklahoma didn't do, they attacked Wimby. [18:16] Yeah. Yeah. All three of the playoffs, no one attacked Wimby. They played away from Wimby. [18:21] The Knicks, we're going right after you. We're going to attack you. We're going to make you foul us.

We're going to make you move your feet. I thought that was a great game play. And it felt like Brunson kind of figured him out as the series went along a little bit. Because he really torched him a couple times down the stretch. It's crazy when you look at Brunson. [18:39] Versus Wemby. [18:40] It's like an 18-inch difference. Brunson is figuring anything out. It's unbelievable. Brunson, I tell you, man, every time you watch him, [18:51] you get more and more impressed with him. I think you still watch him waiting for him not to be able to do what he does.

You know, I think the whole league for two years or, [19:01] But he can't keep doing this. He can't. And he can. It's who he is. Yeah, you almost feel like he's like a heat check guy. Yeah, all game. [19:08] You know, and then the last game, you know, the 45, I mean, come on, he scored half the team's points. Like he willed a game for the New York Knicks to win a world championship. [19:17] Yeah, so I did a pod on Monday. And as you know, my book of basketball where I ranked everybody.

And the big thing for the rankings is, [19:25] was [19:26] Were you the best guy on a title team? Did you... [19:29] We're the alpha. Did you take a [19:31] take a team to the promised land, which I just think is a different level of basketball. It is. So I had, I put Brunson, I put him a bunch, I changed my list. [19:39] And I put him 41 and I put him ahead of guys like Nash and kid and Luca. And I'm like, [19:45] This is the whole point of basketball, is to be the best guy on a title team and to do this stuff that he did in game one of the Cleveland series.

[19:52] throughout the finals, especially game five, which I think is [19:55] in the running for one of the best finals games played this century. Yeah. Um, [20:01] So, you know, he's never been a first-time-on-BA guy, but I feel like he has to be treated that way now. I think he will be. You know, it's almost like the voters didn't believe either. [20:11] I didn't vote for him. I voted for him second team. Yeah, they don't believe. Even though his team's record is great, he keeps doing the same thing. How about 29 points a game in four playoffs now?

Yeah. This is a four-year stretch where those are Shea's stats, those are Kobe's stats, everybody's stats. Other than Michael, those are all the other great player stats. Right. The other thing, I keep saying it, and I'm going to say it, [20:32] and tell the cows, you know, whatever, to come in or whatever they're supposed to do. [20:38] We don't evaluate what a great player is right, in my opinion. I was so excited to talk to you about this. Yes, because – [20:47] winning, [20:48] and leading people, [20:50] It's part of that.

[20:52] And if you can't do that, [20:54] then really all you're doing is playing your game. [20:57] And you're putting up stats. Yes. You know, I got to play my game. Well, winners play their game. [21:05] And they give room for everybody else on their team to, [21:09] to play their game [21:11] And they encourage, they, they do all the things that are required. Right. Uh, [21:18] More than just scored 30 points. [21:20] You know, they lead, they push, you know, Michael pushed, he pushed his teammates, but he also trusted, you know, two of the games, two of the series they won came off on Michael Jordan pass.

You know, he was willing to make the right play. He was 11 assists a game in the 91 final. Exactly. So he was willing to make the right play at the right time. And Brunson led their team to an NBA title. He didn't just play his team. [21:47] To an NBA title Well and that's part of the problem [21:51] And I was really interested to see how people would react, when I was like, this is where Brunson is now. - Yeah. - This is my system. I did this when Dwyane Wade won in '06.

[21:59] When Walton won in 77, like if you do this once, [22:02] That's more important than what you did for 15 years if you made some conference finals and that's it. This is the whole point of playing basketball. Because basketball is not boxing. It's a team game. Yeah. And you have to win. [22:14] to be considered a great player. Think about what Paul Pierce would 08 meant to him. Beating LeBron straight up. There are some guys that never had [22:25] talent around it. [22:27] It's a small pool. [22:28] Well, I always use Barkley as the example.

To me, I don't hold no title against Barkley because I feel like in 93 – [22:36] He went against the best player of all time at the peak of his powers. Yeah, and he never had telling him around him until he got to Phoenix. Right, and Kevin Johnson let him down the first half of that finals. Yeah, then he had a chance. But no offense, there were plenty of bulls. [22:49] who had won in that series. In any... [22:51] way or form. They were just not. [22:53] You know, the Bulls were the better team.

I thought the Knicks were the better team that year, really. You want me to be honest? But... [23:01] I was on the Knicks. And yeah, that still bothers me, you know, that loss to the Bulls. We're up 2-0. [23:10] Well, Jordan put the double nickel on you in Game 3, right? Or Game 4? Well, no, Game 3, the media... [23:18] Oh, I like this. I don't know if we've talked about this. Game three. What happened with the media? It was, I want to say, a three or four day break between game two and three, which allowed them to kind of [23:29] Capture themselves a little bit.

[23:31] But more importantly, the media beat up Jordan every day because they saw that he was at a casino. Right. And for four days or three days or whatever it was. [23:40] Michael Jordan is sitting at home. [23:42] Hearing that he let his team down. [23:45] Does he care anymore? What's wrong with this guy? He's out gambling. You know, [23:50] And I, [23:52] Yeah, Jordan happened from that point on. [23:55] I think one of the toughest things with evaluating – so I look at that Knicks team. [23:59] And it basically comes down to that, the Charles Smith sequence, right?

Yeah. And you could blame, okay, Charles Smith should have scored. [24:06] Maybe you should have had a slightly better player than Charles Smith, like et cetera, et cetera. Or you go the other way and go, [24:11] This is why the Bulls are so great. They protected the rim, and they had no center out there, and those guys were so great in the moment. That's what made that team special. That's the difference. It's not that Charles missed the three layups. [24:25] I lost BJ Armstrong late in the game and he got a three.

You know, it's a play we worked on all the time that you had to, you know, block out but not get sealed. [24:35] And I had to block out. I think it was Horace Grant. And as I was blocking him out, I got too low. And now he seals me in that I couldn't get back on the ball swing. And J. makes a three. [24:45] Um, [24:47] I think we missed two points. [24:49] Technical foul free throws in that game. I always took, I was the best free throw shooter on the team.

[24:57] I think I played, I'm going to go look now that I'm thinking about it. I think I played 38 minutes or 37 minutes. Both techs were in the time that I was out of the game. And so... [25:08] Whoever shot him missed him. [25:10] So it was all like 10 little tiny things Yeah as always But at the end of the day Who was our second best player I'm not sure [25:21] Starks was by the way he played, but he wasn't really the second best player every night. [25:26] where they had Pippen.

It was clear who their second best. Pippen was one of the seven best guys in the league. Exactly. So when you make that case, it's hard to say that you would have won, but I think we would have. We had a chance. I mean, San Antonio was a little like that too, right? Like who was their second best player? Well, it was Fox all year. [25:46] But it might have been Harper by the time we got to the finals. By game seven, or by game... [25:50] Game five. Game three. [25:52] It was Fox.

[25:54] Yeah, something with Fox. I mean, it was Harper, something with Harper that he would make a mistake and come out and go back in. [26:01] So, you know, there's this old adage, you don't know a player until you coach a player. [26:05] There's something that, [26:07] that he was doing that made him come out at times. And I couldn't figure it out. [26:12] Interesting. Yeah. So he's a 20-year-old point guard. Yeah, that's part of it. You were a point guard. Yeah. And he's like me, too, because... [26:21] A hundred times better than me.

[26:24] I wasn't a point guard. [26:27] in college. I just led the team in assists. And then when I got drafted, I remember my first conversation with Mike Ferteller. He said, you're going to be the point guard of the Atlanta Hawks. And I'm like, okay. You figure it out. It's like Dennis Johnson. Exactly. But if we didn't have, in the 80s, we didn't have [26:43] some traditional point guards, like the way people think of them. Well, we have some. It was like guys who bring up the ball and run the offense.

Isaiah was a traditional point guard. Well, then you would have the Isaiah John Lucas, like tiny Archibald types. Magic wasn't traditional. Yeah. But he was a pure point guard. Yeah. You know? [26:57] So, yeah, I think Harper is that and probably. [27:02] Didn't execute things properly all the time, you know, but he'll learn all that. I mean, he is special. [27:09] He's a special basketball player, and he will be their second best player. Like, I was trying to think of him in the context of – [27:16] when like Cade came into the league or Chris Paul, [27:19] People like that where you knew right away.

I feel like that with him. Yeah, Harper, yeah, but they're completely different. I mean, Harper's a scorer. He's a scoring point. [27:29] It reminded me more of Rod Strickland with his finishing. I mean, Harper finishes at angles. [27:36] I think it was game five, the one where he was under the basket. The reverse, yeah. Come on. I couldn't have made that. [27:42] In the gym by myself. I could have tried that shot 10 times and I'm missing it all 10 times. He's doing it in the NBA finals with ease. You know, it's amazing.

[27:52] And now it's time for Across the Eras, brought to you by New Era, the official cap of the NBA. So we just had the finals. And as always, I thought a lot about history and the eras intersecting and some of the greatest matchups we've seen throughout history. The New Era NBA Hardwood Classics Collection celebrates these legendary teams and eras and moments. So. [28:15] Perfect time to put the finals matchup side by side with a classic. [28:19] from the past. Got it. [28:21] talk about Reggie Miller here. Like when you think about a new era, uh, [28:25] Players that bridge 80s, 90s, 2000s.

Reggie Miller drafted in the 80s. Really starts to hit it in the 90s. First... [28:33] I think it was 91. He's in Larry Bird's last great moment, the 91 Boston, Indiana first round. And then we go through. Now he has the Knicks battles in 94 and 95. And then you go to 99. They get the heartbroken by OJ's four-point play. 2000, they make the finals. [28:56] And it really feels like Reggie's going to finally get there and win it. And then sadly for him, Kobe ascends, um, [29:04] And then not to mention in 98, they came the closest out of anyone to beating Jordan's Bulls.

So he intersects with Bird. [29:12] Jordan, Kobe and Shaq. And then you go into the 2000s and he has one last run. Like they almost beat the Nets. [29:20] He's not involved in the Artesmelee, but he's on that team. He just saw a lot of things, man. And the sport's totally different by the time he's leaving there in the mid-2000s. Because this three-point shot that he was special at... [29:36] Now it's about to come back in a big way because Steph Curry is about to join the NBA and the league and the geometry league is about to change.

[29:44] Reggie Miller is a good one. 80s all the way through the mid-2000s and boom, sports changing. Relive vintage logos and timeless icons with the NBA, I'm sorry, with the New Era NBA Hardwood Classics Collection. Available in a wide range of silhouettes including the iconic fitted 50-950 or adjustables like the 940 a frame and 970 and some great hardwood classics apparel as well. Visit com to shop now. [30:12] Use one-time code RINGER. [30:14] for 20% off your first order. [30:18] This message is brought to you by Mariner. It takes the right team to help develop an athlete's talents.

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[31:42] So you talk about like... [31:44] the little differences between teams. So I went to the Bird-Dominique game, which you were great in. You got [31:51] You got a standing O when you fouled out. Yeah, that was cool. That was nice. The crowd appreciated you. That was the breaking point for me with Boston. [31:58] You were like, I like these people. Yeah, I hated Boston when I was a player. We appreciated it. And that changed my entire... [32:06] mindset of boss. I love these people. These people are pretty cool. Well, so Dominique at one point, he's number two in MVP.

Yeah. [32:13] He's one of the five or six best players in the league for five years. And that's like his moment. [32:20] to either ascend or not ascend, right? And Bird's like just a whiff better than him. Yeah. Partly because Dominique, I wouldn't say, was the strongest defender, right? And he didn't have that. [32:29] Maybe if you're doing it now with a different team, you're throwing different guys at Bird. We call it he was an occasionally great defender. [32:37] Sporadic. Yeah. I remember Fratello saying that occasionally Dominick is the greatest defender in the league.

Right. We just need that to be more. Well, but I think. But he has a score. Yeah. [32:47] But he's a, well, that's the thing. He's carrying a lot offensively, and he comes so, and that's the closest he ever comes, right? Yeah. [32:54] And then you go back to the Lakers, who end up taking Worthy over him. Yeah. And Worthy ends up in all these games. And he's big game James. And he has the big game seven in 88. [33:04] And Dominic's on this other team where he has a much bigger burden.

And if you flip them, you don't know. [33:10] You don't know, but I mean that Tracy McGrady made that comment. Why it were like that? If I was on the Lakers, I would have. And I said, no. [33:17] You just don't know. But think about Dominique on the Showtime Lakers. That might have been pretty spectacular. It would have been fun, for sure. But he also wouldn't have been able to guard Bird in the finals. I don't know what you're going to do. But it would have been interesting. I love doing that.

Like, if such and such was here, would he have won as much or won less or won more? Yeah. I think it's hard to say. Like, Tom Chambers is another one. Yes. Who is really good. It's like, if he had just been on the Lakers instead of Worthy, [33:43] Would we be talking about him reverentially as one of the best forwards in the 80s? It helps. I mean, Magic was, again, the reason Magic – [33:51] I struggle taking Magic out of the top five of all time. [33:55] He's fifth for me.

Yeah, because of not what he did is. [34:02] His presence. [34:03] He may, I mean, he resurrected Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's career. [34:09] And his love for basketball. Yeah. He'd gone from... [34:12] The Lakers were losing games, not playing well. I don't know if you remember their first game was against the Clippers. Yeah, and the hug game. And the hug game. Yeah. I mean, I think that... [34:23] change. [34:24] Jabbar's second half of his life basketball-wise. And it was huge. I forget who said this on my podcast. I'm going to say it was Nick Wright, but I'm not positive.

It was recent. [34:36] Certain players... [34:37] Love playing basketball because they love playing basketball. [34:40] And then certain players play because they absolutely love winning and want to win all the time. And Magic was one of the few who was both at the same time. [34:47] He loved basketball, but he also really, really loved winning. Yeah, I don't know. It's funny with Magic. Going into my rookie year, they used to have that [34:55] barnstorming tour in Michigan. And I was included in that. We would go and sell out in Lansing.

And after the game, and I'm not being honest, the gate, they would bring the gate in, the cash. And Charles Tucker would [35:12] It's like the Godfather. It'd be 10 for Magic, 5 for Isaiah, $1 for Doc. It was unbelievable. I remember going to Magic's house. [35:25] Yeah, we're sitting there. Magic was out. I want to say he was playing Mark McGuire. [35:29] Tennis in the backyard. And I'm just sitting at the table. Isaiah was playing Mark Aguirre in tennis? No, Magic was. Magic was. He was playing Mark, because Magic had a tennis court in the back of his house.

Okay. [35:40] And we're just, you know, we're not watching the game. We're sitting in the house, you know, drinking Kool-Aid or whatever. You're just hanging out. And I was in the magic, bust the door open. It throws a racket across the room and just walks and leaves. [35:54] And I'm like, what the what is going on here? And he lost. [35:59] He was serious that he lost to Mark Aguirre. Yeah, he lost a tennis match. And I want to say, wherever we were supposed to go that night, he didn't want to go.

I mean, he, I was like, whew. [36:10] This guy doesn't like losing it. [36:11] Well, KG was like that, right? The practices. Oh, yeah. You know what's great about KG? He loved the competition in practice, but he also loved when the other team, [36:22] I was into it. [36:23] You know, that first practice we had, the starters lost in the whole bus ride. [36:29] You know, we were in Rome. Yeah. The whole bus ride, Eddie Howes, Tony, they're giving it to him. [36:34] Just giving it to him. And Kevin's like, all right, yeah, okay.

That next day, it was incredible. The energy that he brought to that practice. That was one of the days I told Tibbs, I was like, [36:47] We're going to be hard to beat. [36:49] Speaking of Tibbs, [36:51] They just win the title the year after he gets fired. Yeah, that's tough. [36:55] Do you take that as a positive or a negative of your tips? [36:58] Because I got a great email a couple days ago from a listener who's like, [37:02] Tibbs conditioned these guys in a lot of different ways and like, [37:06] You should get some credit for this, right?

He should get a lot of credit defensively. [37:10] You know, they didn't vary from that sense than the system. Brendan O'Connor was my assistant coach. Yeah. In Boston and with the Clippers is who Mike Brown hired as his defensive coach this year. [37:25] And we're all from the Dick Carter system of defense. Yeah. [37:31] He brought that to the Knicks. It was already kind of in. Brandon made a lot of changes, but... [37:36] You know, it was pretty cool. [37:37] Having said that, Bill, you're a human. [37:40] All right. And if I was fired, uh, [37:44] And then team won the world championship the following year.

I get, I would know deep down that I really helped that team. But it wouldn't feel that way as you're watching. And I think Tim's was very happy. [37:57] for a lot of their guys. Probably not all of them. For a lot of their guys. [38:04] But also, it hurts you, too. It's just human, man. We forget that we're all humans, and that would hurt a little bit, for sure. Where would you put Jalen Brunson against Isaiah and some of the other – Chris Paul, some of the other tough little guys?

We had that – well, I think – [38:21] You know, and that nothing against Chris, I think you would just put him against all the guys who have won titles. Yeah, yeah. I think you would have to shorten that list. That becomes a much shorter list. That's basically Isaiah, Tony Parker. That's exactly right. Yeah, that's who you have to put him against, you know, because he powered them. [38:41] You say Gus Williams? Good call. Yeah, Gus Williams. I apologized to him on my Monday podcast because I forgot to mention him in the Great Small Guards because he always gets left out.

[38:51] He was the best guy in the 79 Sonics. What about Kuz? Kuz never won a title without Russell, though. Yeah, that's true. And Russell was the best player on the team. Yeah, good point. Because he was close, close, close. Russell showed up. A lot easier when Russell was there. Yeah, so I would start with that list first, and then you can go back to the other guards, because Brunson... [39:11] was so much different like all the small guards would have really struggled guard brothers and [39:16] I mean, all of them.

[39:18] Now, he would have struggled guarding them as well. [39:20] Because one of the things, so I did my thing yesterday, and I had him ahead of Luka all time. Right now. I had a Laker fan who was like, [39:28] That's insane. That's not insane. [39:30] Luca's 33 and 9 and I'm like, [39:34] Yeah, but the whole point of basketball is winning the title. Luka was in a similar situation in the 24 finals, right, against Boston. [39:41] They're down 2-0. [39:42] Game three. [39:44] And then he has that whole thing where he kind of implodes and fouls out and then tells him to challenge it.

And it's like... But that's part of it, Bill. Like, do you have the makeup to win? That's what I was telling him. That's what people keep missing. So you're telling me if you switch Luka and Brunson... [40:00] the Knicks still win the title with Luka or are you discounting all the other stuff Brunson did for that team? The fact that he got better when it mattered all the time. I would say no, they wouldn't, at least from what I've seen so far. And I love Luka. Right. He's just not there yet.

Not yet. You know, and, and, you know, health, conditioning, conditioning, [40:17] Can Lucas sustain that [40:19] type of intensity for that long i don't know if he could have couldn't but i know bronson could um [40:25] And there's something about whatever Brunson did with that team. [40:29] that the guys around him were the best versions of themselves, which I think should count as a trait for basketball players. That's what the KG was great at. It's what Casey Jones told me. We were sitting around in my office one day, and I said, so what was Bill Russell's secret?

He always left for him. [40:48] That's what he said. It's like he knew for him to be great. He had to give everybody else enough room to be great as well. [40:56] what you keep hearing it so often by players, you know, I got to play my game. I got, you know, they got to let me play my game. Okay, we will. [41:06] But that means he can't play his game if you're going to be dribbling the ball or he can't play his game. And so I'll let you play your game, but we're going to lose.

Right. Or can you play your game and allow him to play his game and him to play his game and your team win? Because if you can't do that, if you think the only way you can win is just with you with the ball in your hand, every possession. A lot of people think that. But it hasn't happened. [41:30] It's in the history of the game. [41:32] Right. It's never happened. [41:34] It has never happened in the history of basketball that a guy – [41:39] Every time down, just dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble.

Either shot it or passed it. [41:46] No one's ever won that way. So, I mean, I love history. [41:50] Right, and even when Brunson was playing that way. Yeah. [41:53] It was more because he kind of had to for like nine straight minutes or they weren't going to score. But they also moved the ball. They advanced the ball. They got it back to fast break. But down the stretch, they went to that. Yeah. Other parts, they went away from that. [42:09] What they did a great job of, they knew when it was too much Brunson.

[42:15] And what Mike did so well this year, [42:18] is he instilled the ball movement, you know, playing through towns, even without towns, just moving the ball. [42:24] Where in the past they hadn't done that. It just stayed in Brunson's hand. It's almost like they had a little barometer. Uh-oh. [42:32] it's too much and they got away from it and then they would go back to it so i thought that was the difference the other thing with mike brown [42:40] Uh, he used the hell out of his bitch. [42:43] He really did.

I thought [42:46] I thought Mike Brown coached an amazing series. Even his challenges were like that. [42:51] That, well, the Knicks have the best challenge system in the NBA. It's swung games. No challenges. It's funny, though, Bill. People think it's the coach, head coach. The head coach has very little to do. It's some dude that he trusts completely on the bench. And the Knicks, I think two or three years in a row, have led the NBA in challenges. It's a weapon. Right. And they're good at it. [43:12] They're quick. You know, I remember we played them last year and I was like, do they have a quicker computer?

I mean, what the hell is going on? But the guy actually also understood. You have to understand the rules. [43:24] You have to understand the rules to be a good challenger. Was that a foul before the play? Why use your timeout now? You know, is this the right time? [43:35] Even if you're right. [43:37] They had one. [43:38] In game one or two, they were right. They knew it, but they didn't challenge because they already had one challenge that they won. [43:46] And they were like, no, this isn't the perfect time for us to use the second one.

We use the second one now we're done. And they end up using it in a third or fourth quarter where it came back to really help them. So, yeah, they're really good at. But what else Mike did was that bench, man. What I like to do what he did without towns, basically playing half the game. [44:04] And just figuring out how to patch together non-towns minutes so they could hang around. Impressive. He had the courage. He had more courage than I did as a coach in bigger games. What do you mean?

Well, he was putting in guys that he hadn't played. [44:20] You know, that was something you just wouldn't do. Not unless the guy has proven it all year, you know, um, [44:27] But, you know, he puts in... [44:29] Different guys, you know, he went away from Deuce. [44:32] Deuce was great. He should have. Deuce in the finals couldn't make a shot. He couldn't make a shot. So then he goes to Sham. I love that one. Then he goes to Clarkson. Yeah. Hook 40 out of nowhere? Yeah. And then he goes to Clarkson.

Yeah, right. Clarkson hadn't played throughout the series. Yeah. Game four of the comeback, he stays with [44:51] Avarado stays with him. [44:53] You know, I did that. You remember we won the one game where I didn't bring in Paul or none of the big three. It was the big baby Nate Robinson. [45:02] Oh, it's 2009. Yeah. Yeah. And that group. Yeah. And we won a I think it was a finals game maybe. [45:09] uh with that group on the floor but i had played them all year so i did have more [45:14] confidence in him.

But he had gone away from Clarkson and [45:19] All year. [45:20] You know, it's funny. He did put him in in the NBA Cup game, if you remember. Yeah. He hadn't used him, and Clarkson came in and played great. [45:28] Uh, but even in that game, the cup game against the Spurs, Tyler Colick, he put them in and he played great. So I loved him. Mike kept trusting everybody. Uh, I thought that was really impressive. It's funny. He got fired. [45:44] - Three times, four times? [45:46] Including recently in Sacramento.

It's called coaching. Right. And then- [45:50] Meanwhile, all the other coaches were like, Mike Brown's a really good coach. Yeah. And then finally, he's in the right spot. Now it's like getting standing ovations in restaurants. Yeah. Now he can't. He'll never have to pay for another meal. Did that happen to you after 08 when you're walking in restaurants? Oh, my God. In Boston. Still does. [46:05] They had a clip. He walked into the polo lounge in New York. Everybody just started standing up and doing this. Yeah, but right after, I remember I was walking in, me and Sam Cassell, and it was a little uncomfortable.

Yeah. Yeah. [46:19] You know, I walk in a restaurant and people stand up. [46:21] and try to pay you had no chance of paying. I did like that. I'm known for being a little tight. So I absolutely love that part. Yeah. Yeah, because the Celts were 22 years. This was 53. Yeah. But it had a little bit of the same stuff of like, [46:39] You know, a lot of losing, a lot of like, I remember back when we were good and now we're not. Yeah. And, you know, Boston's fans now have gone through so much winning.

[46:48] Now we get upset when we're bouncing back. When I got to Boston, the Red Sox hadn't won in a thousand years. The Patriots hadn't won. The Bruins hadn't won. The Celtics hadn't won. Then all of a sudden, we're all winning. And I used to always think back to, man, there's a kid that's seven years old. [47:05] It thinks this is how it is. Right. That's Sully from the Celtics. Yeah. Yeah. His sons all day. They were born like right when Brady showed up. They were. Yeah. They were born at the perfect time in Boston.

They think winning is like they're entitled to win. Yeah. 13 titles. Yeah. That's I don't know. However many years that was. [47:25] One thing on Brunson, so I was arguing with a Luca friend of mine, and we started talking about Hardin. It's like, you know, I know you don't like Hardin. [47:32] There's just no way Harden was... [47:35] worse than Brunson. Harden has to be above Brunson. I'm like, all right. [47:39] He makes the case. He makes the case. He won the MVP. [47:43] is 36 points a game. We're arguing back and forth about it.

I was like, all right, I hear everything. [47:50] Give me your best Harden year, 2018. He's like, 2018. I'm like, all right, take 2018 Harden. [47:56] and put him on this next team. Do you think they win the title? [47:59] And he goes, well, but that's, [48:01] And I was like, that's your answer. That's the answer. That's your answer. That's why Brunson has to be ahead of Harden. That is the absolute answer. Because you just said, you just already started stammering and making excuses. Yeah. It's the answer that we should all go by.

Right. You know, there's a lot of players. You know, James is a phenomenal player. He's in my top 50. I still think the best part of his game he doesn't like as much as I love him. [48:25] The point guard putt. Yeah. I think... [48:28] I think he has as good a vision as anybody that I've seen, uh, next to Rondo and Chris. Yeah. Um, yeah. [48:35] And, you know, [48:37] but he can score too. And he liked to dribble. He liked to hold the ball. [48:40] see James doesn't give everybody else enough room to be great he is the only one that can be great on this team [48:48] He has to be the greatest.

Yeah. I don't even think it's a jealousy thing. I really don't. [48:54] I just think it's the way he plays and that's how he plays. [48:58] You know, as you said, he's a system, you know, but that system to me is not the way to win. [49:06] you know, um, [49:08] I still go back. You look with James with us in Philly, the first half of the year. Yeah. He gave himself up to the team. [49:17] He was playing unbelievable basketball. And I thought there was nobody better than us. Yeah.

And then it kind of changed. He wanted to go back. You could see it slowly. Like he was uncomfortable in that role. [49:29] One of the things I did like about that sucker, though, he practiced every day. [49:33] Yeah, it's funny how people don't look at him like that. James Harden loves playing basketball. And he's durable. Very. I told Ty Lue that. I said, listen. [49:44] You're going to need a guy that practices every day, and he's going to play 80 games. [49:49] Like there's something good about that. The bad part is, can you win with it?

[49:55] This episode is brought to you by State Farm. [49:58] Countless hours in the gym, a thousand shots before tip-off, day after day on the same court. [50:04] with the State Farm stanchion right there. That's right. The best players ever. [50:10] Put in the work. And State Farm is the same way with insurance experts who put in the work as well. Whether you get a digital quote, [50:16] or reach out to a local agent. [50:18] State Farm is there to get to know you. [50:20] and help you select the right coverage that fits your life, [50:24] and your budget.

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