Lena Dunham

[00:00] This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking your pockets before putting clothes in the washer? [00:09] Oof. Enjoy your freshly cleaned and completely destroyed earbuds. Yeah, checking first is a good plan. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. [00:29]. [00:34] Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Good Hang. We have Lena Dunham with us today.

Lena, actress, writer, producer, creator of girls, best-selling author of her memoir, Famesick. We are going to get into it with Lena. We are going to talk about Nora Ephron. We're going to talk about the productivity myth and how we're all suffering because of it. We're going to talk about whether or not... [00:58] One should go on Great British Bake Off. Is it actually worth it? We are going to get into so much good stuff today. We had a great conversation and we always like to talk to somebody who knows our guest, who has a question for our guest and wants to speak well behind their back.

And we spoke to... [01:13] Natalie Portman. [01:15] classy actress natalie you know her from the black swan from rapping on snl from a little indie called star wars and she and lean are working on a rom-com together so let's get natalie on the horn i believe um we're talking to her from outside of the country so bonjour [01:36] Or bonsoir, Natalie. [01:38] Music. [01:45] This episode is presented by Hilton. Guys, you know what vacation perfectionism is? It's the pressure to get your family's summer vacation booked and make it perfect and memorable.

Stressful, right? Don't worry, because the team at Hilton takes care of what matters so you can exhale and disconnect. They've got over 9,000 hotels around the world, including amazing resorts and all-inclusive options. So you'll definitely find the stay that you're looking for. When you want your summer vacation to feel like a vacation, it matters where you stay. [02:15] Book now at com. Hilton for this day. [02:30] Nice to see you. You too. Thanks for talking to us today. First of all, congrats on the summer, Bob. Thank you. You too. I mean, well, you're kind of, you've been, you've been doing it for, for a while, right?

Well, I have, I have, you know, visually like. [02:45] No option. [02:47] With my hair, my hair is kind of my hair just cuts itself. OK, so. [02:53] First of all, congratulations on all the things that are happening for you, including this new film that you're in with Mark Ruffalo. [03:01] And my wife, Rashida Jones, and many others. She's my wife, too. So I'm glad we share that in common. I'd like to talk about that because we can't share her. She's a polygamist. That's okay. Well, I'd like to get her on the horn and make her pick.

[03:22] That's fair. That's fair. That would actually probably be her nightmare. If we called Rashida right now and were like, me or Natalie? Exactly. She'll be like, Ezra. [03:31] I do want to talk about your film and working with Lena, but, but by the way, have you been listening to the, um, [03:38] Lonely Island Seth Meyers podcast. [03:41] at all no but i've heard amazing things about it highly recommend their episode about your rap it's so it's so good and it's so funny and it's like very in-depth about how it all came together they're the best and that was so fun that was and it just it's such a time capsule too because it's just like a time in the 2000s so that's yeah own thing birth of youtube like so wild you've got [04:11] So exciting.

[04:13] Yeah. Post head shaving. [04:16] Wow. That was a grow in. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Man, you know, you're not really an actress unless you have one. [04:24] Head shaving. You've got to shave your head once. Have you ever shaved your head? No, I would. I have kind of a small head, so I would be. That's surprising. I wouldn't guess that. Oh, really? Thank you so much. [04:37] Does my head look larger? Your head looks perfectly normal sized. You know, well, you know, the whole theory that like the bigger the head, the more successful you are.

Do you know this theory? Oh, really? No, I don't. When at SNL, I'm sure this happened to you, too, when you were there, like they'll measure your head, you know, for prosthetics and stuff like that. [05:07] bigger the paycheck. No way. That's really funny. Now that I've brought this up, you're going to start to notice. You're going to start to notice like, wow, he has a huge head. Like he's that's why he's running a country or whatever. You're going to notice it. That's so funny. But I'm [05:26] I mean, I feel like you're pretty successful, Amy.

Thank you so much. Maybe I'm a small-headed success. Yeah, maybe you're an outlier. But I do wear a young boy's hat. I can wear a young man's hat. That's very lucky. Very lucky. So- [05:45] I'm interviewing Lena today. Yes. And, you know, I'm kind of getting her after a lot of interviews. Like she's been kind of on, on, on, [05:53] tour online, like really out there. And I've known her for a long time and I'm excited to talk about the different ways that I've known her, but I've never known her as a director.

I've never worked with her in that way. And I'm curious what kind of director she is and what it was like to work with her in that way. She's the best director I've ever, [06:16] one of the best, if not the best I've worked with. She's [06:22] so on point, like the... [06:25] notes she gives are so important. [06:28] like astute and specific and like she pays attention to everything and she doesn't [06:34] Also like, [06:36] hesitate to give compliments too about very specific things along with like maybe try this different.

[06:44] And she's, [06:45] extremely nurturing and [06:48] generous and kind to everyone on set at all times. Like I would go home every day being like, how does she have the energy? [06:55] Because, yeah. [06:57] the amount of like generosity and kindness and thoughtfulness she [07:02] puts out all day, [07:05] to everyone is like pretty miraculous. So the very, like the environment on set is incredible because everyone's just so happy. Not a surprise to hear that. And so nice to hear that. And that's a really interesting specific that you said, which is that she will, [07:20] compliment something you've done.

Like that isn't always the case. Like, [07:24] it's nice when people notice something that you try and say, I noticed it. Exactly. And, and it's specific because a lot of people will be like, Oh, good job. Or like, that was a really nice take or something, but like, I like how you like accented the, you know, word in that, that was really funny in that line, you know, very, a very specific thing that she notices or like that face you made in response to Rashida or whatever, like that was [07:54] It's not just a general, like, you can tell she's really just watching so...

[08:00] carefully and sharply. And her ideas are so good. And she comes up with like, brilliant new lines all the time, you know, the way only great comedy minds like yourself can do. Okay, so do you have a question for our guest today, Lena, that you think might be a good one to ask her? My question for her is... [08:20] What? Well, I have one kind of. [08:24] Thank you. [08:24] One that I personally want to know, which is what is the best kind of pig? [08:28] to get. Okay. So you're thinking about getting a pig.

Actually can't in where I live, but, but I dream about it in the future one day. And she has a lot of [08:41] knowledge about this. And I like to hear her talk about pigs. That is a great question because I do enjoy pigs. They are really cute. Yeah. So Lena, what is the best pig? And I say, get the pig. You know what I mean? Even if you're not allowed to have it. So the problem is, is that where I rent, there's wild boars. [09:01] Oh, yeah. Apparently the wild boars mate with pigs and make a very dangerous hybrid.

[09:12] And so it's illegal in that area. OK, because there's some did not expect that to be vicious, vicious hybrid baby pig. And I don't want to be responsible. I think I'll get kicked out of France. [09:31] very responsible parenting. That's responsible pig parenting. And I have a thousand questions about the wild boars. [09:39] I mean, it's the main topic of conversation. You never hear about like really nice boars. Well, I think like domesticated boars are pigs, right? I'm not ready to say that. [09:52] I don't know. I don't know.

Maybe we should ask Lena. We should ask Lena because the boar, the big boar is going to come for us in a way that I'm not ready for. [10:04] Okay. I'm going to ask her the difference between boars and pigs. [10:09] Natalie, thank you so much for doing this. It really means a lot. And before we go, would you just mind saying in French to me? [10:17] Have a wonderful day, Amy. [10:20] And your head may be small, but your heart is large. [10:30] et petite. [10:32] Mais ton cœur est grand.

[10:35] France is going to murder me for that. They're going to send the boars. They're going to send the boars. Ding dong. You're going to hear a ding dong right now. There's going to be four French boars. Language boars. No, thank you for doing that. It sounds beautiful. Anything you say sounds beautiful. And especially in French. Thank you, Natalie. Thanks. It's really nice to see you. Thanks for doing this. I'm so glad to see you. Yeah, you too. Okay. You too, honey. Bye. Enjoy Lena. Give her a kiss for me.

[11:05] episode is brought to you by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking whether your guest ordered food and is expecting a delivery to arrive mid-podcast record? Lesson learned. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and [11:35] Thank you, Lena. Thank you for being here. It's really good to see you. It's really good to see you.

I know I've missed you. I know. And congrats. You just celebrated your 40th birthday. I had my 40th birthday. How does it feel to turn the corner? I've been trying to gather wisdom from the women that I know who have been 40 and seem to have liked it. I think it kind of rules. Yeah. [11:55] I like it. I like getting older much more than being young. You don't know anything better than different than being young when you're young. So you don't realize, but there's like a, some kind of pressure that's dissipating.

Yeah. [12:06] And some kind of attention that you no longer either feel you are supposed to be seeking or are getting. And it's a huge relief. I said like sometimes it's like you're gay. I'm. [12:17] in the good way, gaining a cloak of invisibility. Yeah. And also, I was so, even though people seem to think of me as someone who's really like marching to the beat of my own drum or whatever, I was so dominated by shoulds and musts and all. [12:32] ought to's and now I feel really okay going that's not really my thing that's not for me so glad if it's for you not for me I mean even just realizing like I don't really like to go to parties dude I don't like to go to parties it's not even that I want to be asleep early I just want to be in bed early to stay up late doing what I want to do in bed well I want to talk to you about your sleep okay okay I have some thoughts okay I would love to get them

[13:02] to talk about it. But when you don't like going to a party, what would be your ideal gathering? Great. What would be my good hang to bring it back? Thank you. I like to hang out on the couch or on bed with one friend, two friends. Maybe we order some food, we hang out with some animals, we gab. Then they leave early enough that you have time to maybe like potter around, move one pile of things from one corner of the room to another. Then read a book and maybe like [13:32] Watch a little bit of a murder documentary and then fall to sleep.

And text him and be like, that was fun. Yes. And be like, I love being your friend. I wish we were still together. But you're very happy that you're like both on your mats. Yes, totally. That's exactly what I like. Or like when I hang out with my nuclear family. And I like when we all four of us read on different tufted surfaces near each other. And then everyone sort of like puts themselves to bed. We parallel play and then everyone puts themselves to bed. I mean, I bet you get this a lot.

And you talk about it a little bit in your book. [14:02] as such an extrovert, right? And I relate. I present very extroverted too. But from what you've written about, that you are secretly quite introverted. Yes. And it's kind of hard to, you're in an extroverted business. [14:17] And you... [14:18] like to talk and you like to have other people talk. You want to draw that out of other people too. I love to, I like to talk and I like to listen. Yeah. You, you, you love to have a conversation.

I know that about you and that is expensive. Yeah. [14:31] But it takes a very long time to realize that, especially if you're good at it. Well, it's interesting that... [14:36] That's very beautifully put. But and I've always found you to be exceedingly wise. I have always found you to be, despite your adorable little blonde bop, you are a wise. Oh my God, thank you. I was talking about a bob earlier. You are a very wise lady. It's a bob summer. After a party, I mean. [14:54] I have to stare at the wall and dissociate for 18 hours minimum.

It actually leads me into my first question, which is you've been on a press tour. You've been talking nonstop with many people about your book, which is a very personal book. [15:09] So, [15:10] Now that you've done a bunch of these, what have you learned about how you like to talk about it? How do you take care of yourself when you talk about it? These are such good questions. I... [15:21] You've done this before. I was like, it's a strange thing to write a book about what it cost you to go on press tours and talk about yourself and then go on a press tour and talk about it.

Yeah. Like maybe the most truthful thing would have been to like just, you know, drop it like a surprise album and then go, I'll be in my bedroom for six months. You guys figure it out. Yeah. [15:42] But at the same time, I really love – this is going to sound – I really love books. Yeah. But I really love books, and I really love – I feel really lucky that I got to write it and really – and there's issues in it, like, you know, the trying to talk about what it – how we – [16:00] kind of perceive and consume female celebrity, chronic illness, mental health stuff that's like, feels like,

[16:10] things that I am excited to get to talk about in the right way. Yeah. But I had to really remind myself before going out, when I was – [16:17] really tap dancing as hard as I could in my twenties, I went into every interview, basically the way that I would have gone into like every play date when I was in second grade, which was, I hope you want to be my friend. And I hope you want to invite me back. My mom always called it, she always, she still does.

She'll be like 50% rule because she always says that I could give 50% less energy in situations and everything would be fine. Because I have tried to give 25%. I mean, [16:47] speaking to something really true, not just women, obviously, but a lot of women over deliver. [16:54] They over deliver in every way. And then they're exhausted and they match. And bitter and bitter. And of course I resent, I resent the things I do to myself. It's going to sound like a detour, but it's not, which is that I have pet pigs and.

Oh, we're going to talk about it. [17:15] To quote Lisa Rinna's memoir title, you better, you better believe I'm going to talk about it or whatever. It's not something you know, I'm going to talk about it. [17:24] Wanda Sykes' book, yeah, I said it. [17:29] Continue. But there is a thing when I got a pig, I realized, okay, this is not like a dog. This is not like a cat. I need to get a specialist in here to teach me how to do this. And there's a woman named Susan Madgitson who is the preeminent pig trainer and rescue artist of our time.

And Susan, she has a Zoom that she does every Monday night called For Pig's Sake, [17:54] questions. Susan and at her farm, Ross Mill Farms, where she takes in all the pigs that people adopted because they thought they were so cute and little. And then they are 200 pounds of attitude. Yeah. Pure attitude. [18:07] But one of the things that happens to house pigs is that they just develop something called spoiled SPS, spoiled pig syndrome. [18:15] It is it is a well-known condition. We're in a pig. [18:20] starts to if you ask your pig say if say you give your pig treats but you don't ever ask them to do a trick for those treats right suddenly you ask them to do anything they're like [18:28] No, that's not the deal that we were in.

And then they start to become aggressive. They start to destroy things. They get an attitude because they've got spoiled pig syndrome. And I told my brother about it and he was like, you mean like what you've done to everybody that you've ever dated? Like you have the worst. Yes. Treats without the trick. Where's the trick, babe? Where's the trick, babe? There is no trick. And he said also, yes. [18:53] The thing about spoiled pig syndrome is at the end of the day, you have a spoiled pig and it's nobody's fault but your own.

Oh, I know. That's the worst part. I know. It always comes back to, I mean, I would say that is the one thing about being over 40 is there's just less and less ability to, [19:09] to kind of [19:11] put the blame externally. Like you're like, Oh no, I know better. Thank God I know better, but fuck now I know better. Okay. It took you eight years to write this book. Yeah. [19:21] How did you know when it was done? [19:23] Really good question. A really good question. So my editor, Andy Ward, is one of my

[19:30] most favorite people. We love Andy Ward. We live for Andy Ward. And he's just a good, he's a good man. He's, I don't try to go around using the term girl dad a lot. I don't love it, but, but he is, he is a girl dad. He's a girl dad to us all. And he's a writer dad and he's just the greatest. And he, what I love is that a lot of people in this economy would just go, okay, there seems to be like enough gossip that maybe People Magazine would mention it.

[20:00] ready and he [20:01] really cares. And he really pushed me to, you know, I started the book when I was [20:07] three months out of rehab. And I just thought like, I'll jot off some of these experiences and then they will have left my body and I'll never have to think about it again. And it ended up sort of [20:16] The thing you said about having to look... [20:18] at yourself. I was like, this isn't going to be something that is worth the paper that it's printed on if I don't, [20:26] I have to tell the story and I also have to try to understand how I got there.

And... [20:30] it turns out that takes time. And, you know, you've talked about there's, there's so many things in the book. There's about, there's relationship breakups. There's tons of stuff about figuring out, um, like you spoke of like how to participate in the system and how the system works for you and against you. And there's a lot of stuff about personal stuff about people that you work with. But I'm, I'm also interested in a couple of things, but, but I'm also interested in [20:59] looking for wisdom a little bit, especially in women that were a little older, I was really...

[21:04] I could have read a million pages about you and Nora, Efron. And we talk about her on this podcast a lot. I never had the pleasure to meet her. But you two would have really had a ball. Thank you for saying that. I would have loved to have met her. And I guess... [21:19] It's not really a deep question, but it kind of feels like it is like she gave you. [21:22] tips, decorating tips. She did. But that feels very, just like very maternal. One of the ways that she showed care was she had this like incredible mental Rolodex of here's where you get your bagels and here's where you blow your hair out and here's who should paint your walls.

But the guy who paints your walls is different than the guy who paints your floors. Like giving you all the tools to live well. She said to me, you cannot shoot a movie without this very specific Patagonia lightweight. She's like, and don't get the [21:52] zip puffer cardigan. You know, these things where she's like, I have, I've been here for a while and I've figured out. She's curated her life. She's curated her life. It was exactly that. Yeah. And she. Yeah. [22:04] And I felt like, how lucky am I to be the person that she has chosen to give this, all of this incredible wisdom and information to.

And when she died, I mean, there are hundreds of us. Somehow she found the time to do this. [22:19] She would just see someone and think, I don't know if she thought, you know, [22:24] They amuse me enough that I can stand to have them around or if she just thought they seem like they need it. But she showed up. [22:31] for other women, younger women in this way that was so mind blowing. And I think part of why she did it was because it, it also made her feel good.

Well, now that you're like, now millennials are getting older and welcome to the club millennials. I'm here to say it's not so bad, but now millennials are turning 40. Yeah. [22:48] Like, and they're, [22:49] Like you're becoming a mentor. You have mentees, I'm sure. And I love what you said in your book about how you really try to not give that much advice where you just try to say like, I'm here and I'm available. Yeah. Figuring out how to be a good mentor is really interesting. I'm curious because I feel like sometimes I never want to get caught [23:12] in the trap of thinking that I know better than they do.

Like if I see somebody doing something where I think that's going to really hurt you and, and, and damage if I'm like, have the opportunity to sort of put my arm out like a seatbelt. But at the same time, I don't think I could hear it when I was that age. Also like to use a great metaphor, not my pig, not my farm. [23:33] Like you can't save anybody from themselves. I mean, you know, this is some Cody stuff we're [23:42] Don't do it. Like, what are you going to say?

Don't do that job. Don't take it. Don't date that guy. Like we all have to make these mistakes and nobody listens when you do anyway. If someone has a question and I can answer it, I am delighted. And I'm also always saying, and then you do exactly whatever you want and I will be here. [24:00] cheering you on. Speaking of that, the way you talk about [24:05] the productivity myth in your book is it really spoke to me as a Gen Xer. So my Gen grew up with like working girl and you wear your sneakers in the subway and like hustle, like, you know, and Madonna's documentary was like, I'm going to play through the pain.

And Lady Gaga's documentary was like, I'm, I have fibromyalgia and I'm really suffering. I'm totally different. And both showed this like version of like how to get through what you're getting through. But we got sold this [24:35] that if you're not producing, you're not worthwhile. And I know you struggled with that too. What can you say about that? Or what have you learned about that through the writing of this book or just through like living life? Well, when I saw... [24:47] Five Foot Two, the Gaga documentary, that was one of the most...

[24:50] emotional. I remember I just kept rewinding because I'd never seen these things on camera before. And I always thought that if people found out what was going on with me physically behind the scenes, that they'd be like, well, this one's defective. We want a new one. I mean, yeah. And Hollywood has not done anything to make us think that isn't. That's right. The approach. I mean, we maybe can can speak about things a little bit. Maybe a producer would not feel comfortable saying out loud that one's defective. We want a new one.

But the [25:18] but the behavior remains the same. And so, [25:22] there was a lot of time of reminding myself that, [25:26] all of these people's ideas of what a valuable life is, of what, what, of the right way to spend your time of how to prioritize life. [25:35] your health versus the work, your health versus a press junket. Yeah. Didn't have to be mine. I remember once before a job, [25:45] them going, so how do you, how long before you get sick do you usually know that it's going to happen?

[25:50] And I was like, never even... [25:53] occurred to me that I was like, sometimes, I don't know, like when it starts, I don't, I don't know what to say. There was this idea that you could almost like schedule your body's class. It's funny you say that because my brain, like what this book did, is it like, which I think good writing does, is it makes you think about [26:10] Like, wait, how am I thinking about the world? And to your point, now what I'm realizing is what I want to do to extend the conversation is be like, ask people, how do they do their system?

How do they work it? So that conversation you have with producers is really helpful. I used to spend a lot of time thinking I was the only thing. It's that, you know, part of being young and looking around and thinking that everybody's facade is what's [26:40] just showered in Lululemon sweat clothes with a big cup of coffee. For me, the idea of the kind of woman I'd never be was always someone who like brewed her own coffee and put it in a thing, in a Yeti cup and got to work and was like, oh, because I like to do this in the morning.

For me, it was always a blowout. Like, I was like, when did you get a blowout? Like, who did it? Who did it? Where did you go? Did you go to Drybar? Did you do it yourself? Yeah. Do you have someone to come to your house? Is this day three of your blowout? [27:10] Yeah. There's a question. There's these things where we look and we go, I will never be. Everybody has it. Everybody has it. We all have it. And then I started to realize that's just their way of dealing.

Like I. Mm hmm. [27:22] I keep a really psychotic to-do list. I have this very specific to-do list system that is, I won't belabor, but it's taken years for me to find a system that works. I love my system. When I finish something, I put the trophy emoji next to it. Oh, for a little treat. Yeah, my little treat. Because you did a trick. Yeah, I did a trick. And I get a treat. And my treat is that trophy emoji. And then at the end of the day, I'll carry over the things that didn't happen.

[27:52] that's off the list or whatever. I do want to talk about your bed. You create so much in your bed. You love your bed. I love my bed. I love my bed too. [28:00] I'm worried about your sleep. Talk to me about your sleep. Are you a night owl? [28:04] So this is going to involve a little bit of history, which is that we have a congenital... [28:13] We have a congenital... [28:15] And it's something where sleep and death get equated early in childhood. My father had it. My mother had it.

Maybe that's why they fell in love. And they passed it down to my brother and me. And as children... [28:27] we started to get scared to go to sleep around 4 m. So still today... A lot of people have that, that they are very stressed about the fact that they never go to sleep. Yeah. It would be, I would start around 3 m. to start to say, okay, what time do you think we're going to put pajamas on? What do you think we're going to do right before bed? Then my father would have to tell me, right, he'd have to take me and I'd say, is it a sock night or is it not a sock night?

Because I [28:57] when they were too warm. Then my, I miss Jenna Weiss-Berman's giggle. It's the greatest. Then I would say, can you tell me a list of things we're going to do tomorrow to look forward to? Because I thought if I didn't have things to look forward to, I might just pass away in my sleep. Yeah. I would love to sleep train you. I would love to have a week in your house. I'm going to wear a nurse's uniform. And I'm going to go, it's time. I'm going to go and,

[29:27] business, you're going to say, what kind of socks? I'm going to go, no, no, no. Chop, chop. If I told you what was actually happening in my bed, the level of the books, the various lights that are shining at me, the animals that are scooching around, the noise. [29:42] twice a night, my rabbits will hurl themselves up into the air and just land directly on my face. Let's stop at rabbits. Let's start at rabbits. Let's ask the rabbits if they can sleep next to the bed. Well, the rabbits also, you know, the thing about rabbits is they're lagamores.

You don't know the thing is that they are crepuscular, which means that they're most awake at dawn and at [30:12] Bye. [30:12] One of the best things I did for myself is make sleep hygiene as important as other things. Wow. And it was very hard because like you, I grew up with a total like... [30:26] I wanted to stay up late. I like I would have a TV in my room, like staying up late felt like something I was good at. [30:31] Thank you. [30:32] I felt the same way. And I had SNL and I was a vampire.

And it was like, I'm a night owl. And you know my thing when I was a teenager was that, [30:39] SNL reruns were on Comedy Central at midnight. And so I would, my parents, my bedroom was downstairs. We lived in this weird place in Brooklyn that was above a garage, but there was one little windowless room next to the garage, which was my room. And the landlord, JP, had left his like single guy. It was like the most modern TV of 1993. Right. And I would plug in the headphones from like American Airlines and sit this close to the television

[31:09] Wow. [31:11] Alina. So sad. I mean, comedy is so important. You're not sad. I mean, that's like an athlete, like just, you know, shooting hoops in the driveway. I graduated from high school in 2004. So one thing that I did was at St. Anne's, we had student IDs and the rule was that you [31:29] could not come and get tickets to SNL unless you were... [31:33] Was it 16 or 18? I don't, it was. I think it might be 16. It was 16. Yeah. So I was 15 and wanted to go.

Yeah. So I came up with a scheme, which was I was going to go. [31:43] to act like I lost my school ID and have them reprint it and go, you guys got my birthday wrong. And then have them move the year. And they did. And then I fell too guilty and I confessed. [31:59] Before I could ever go. I was like, started to think about. You're like, this worked too well. Yeah. This was too, I could get addicted to this. And pretty soon I'm going to be scamming men out of their money in Florida and putting them to sleep with a little injection.

[32:13] on this path. I mean, you're speaking about like the fact that 2001 is 25 years ago is insane. It's insane. There is such an incredible resurgence of your work, specifically girls, but all of your work and how people interact with your work. Do you think it is like this? I mean, it's like people, right? I don't know. People attach it to this bigger idea of nostalgia, [32:43] show to you to the feeling that that time, do you have a sense of why? Well, you know, it's interesting because I know that a lot, I don't equate my early 20s.

And I think when people read the book, they'll understand why, with the exception of some very specific moments, I don't like equate my early 20s with like a sense of jubilance and freedom, just because it was really the moment when sort of adult life and adult pressure descended. So it's interesting. And [33:10] It's cozy. Like when I want to be cozy, I watch Parks and Recreation, or as my husband calls it, Parks and Recreations. Oh, with an S. Yeah. I like that. And once I said, you know, there's no S on the end, he went, you're wrong.

[33:23] And I knew that I, I think maybe I don't do this, but I knew that I loved him because I left my dog with him for the day while I was on set. And it was a big thing for me to be like, okay, I'm going to leave her with you, not with this dog sitter. Let's see what happens. [33:40] We're just watching some Parks and Recreations. She loves John Ralphio. And I went, okay. Okay, that's a good guy. Okay, you can stay. You can stay. I would watch Parks and Recreations to relax.

But the idea that, and to me, I'm like, Girls is like a stress bomb. Like, it's like watching. Okay, let's talk about this. I agree. Girls can be a stress bomb. It's a stressful show. I feel like when I'm watching Girls, I'm like watching one of those movies where somebody has like 10 minutes to disseminate a bomb. [34:10] But it really, really relaxes people. And I think it reminds them of a time. It reminds them of time in their lives and a time in the characters' lives. And a lot of people say to me, people who are...

[34:20] on the old, on the more 40 end, we'll go like, I lived in, I lived off the Lorimer stop when I was 23 with my two best friends from college. And, you know, now one of them's dead and one of them's a Republican, you know, like they are looking back at a moment that felt really good and alive to them. And I love that they think that the girls are cozy and feel like they're their friends like that. Yeah. And also all I ever wanted to make, I always was sad.

Like I'm never going to be the [34:49] But so if it is that for people, I also think there's something, even though, [34:55] the show does have social media, even though the show, you know, there's, there's like a conversation in the first episode and I've never watched girls since we finished. So I really, you've never done a rewatch. I've never done a rewatch. I've never done a rewatch. I just, I, [35:08] I guess I'm always thinking, and I don't know, do you ever watch things? I rewatched Parks and Rec with Parks and Recreations with my kids.

They love it. I would suggest someday you do because... Rewatch Parks and Recreations? I have. Rewatch Girls because... [35:27] It is just a really like concrete way to be more gentle to yourself. Like you just, all the stuff that you would maybe be critical of kind of goes away. At least it did for me. And you just remembered the feeling. Like I didn't even remember what happened. I was like, what happens here? Does Leslie win? Like I couldn't even remember the plot, but I could remember the feeling of making the scenes.

Like it was like a body feeling. [35:57] And it made me feel grateful. It made me feel really grateful. That's so nice. And I wonder, I would wish that for you. I don't know if you will feel that, but maybe you will. I think, I mean, I love those people and I love that. And there were so many wonderful times, you know, after Andrew Reynolds read the book, he was like... [36:12] It was like, it was made me sad at some points because I felt like we were having so much fun.

And then I read it and it didn't feel like you were having fun. And I was like, no. [36:19] When we were on screen, that was the best thing ever. That was my like, that was my escape from everything else that was happening in my mind. I always felt like I could open a door into being those people. [36:31] And I remember feeling like this, and it's the only time I've ever really felt this way, because I'm not like a mystical actor in this way. But I just, I felt like my, whatever Lena's problems are, go away.

And like the problems of these particular people, which feel sort of light and inconsequential at the end of the day, took over. And so I was like, no, I always felt joy when I was with you. I always felt joy when I was linked, hands linked with these people doing this thing. It was everything that came with it. Yeah. That was hard. [37:00] write about girls or wrote about girls got wrong about it. At the time, it was like there was two ends of the spectrum, which is there are people who thought we weren't in on the joke at all, like that we were thought that we were making like, you know, a pressing film about the concerns of America's media's population and that we just were really missing the mark.

Right. And then there were the people who thought that I was like so in on the joke that I remember there being conservative commentators who were like, actually, this is a, you know, [37:30] She's ignoring woke millennials and she's taking them down. And I was like, actually, something can live totally between those places, which is we take them totally seriously and- [37:40] we totally get what's funny about it. Yeah. People underestimate people. [37:44] young women all the time. Yes. And it was funny. It was like, if, if they, people didn't like the show, it was my fault.

If they did like the show, it was the fault of someone else. It was just, yes, it was. And really looking back, [37:55] Now, if somebody people come to me a lot and will go like someone saying something mean about me on the Internet, what do I do? And I always go, just don't look at it. Yeah, just don't look at it. But I couldn't take that advice. Of course. That's why it's when you were asking, like, how do you like talking about the book? How do you not like talking about the book?

And then I circled away from that. I'm going to circle back is sometimes people will ask me. [38:17] you know, why do you think people felt this way about you? Or why do you think people had a strong reaction? And I go, it's ultimately like not really my problem. Not only is it not your problem, it's not your business. How about that? That's the way people think about you is none of your business. It's not your business. It's not your business. It's truly not. It's just like, and that is... I'm checking into the hotel under the name none your business.

None your business. [38:44] Also a book written by one of the sides. When you're writing the characters for girls, [38:50] Um, did you think it was a show about female friendship? I thought, yes, I thought it was a show about female friendship, but I was like, it's a show about like the fact that female friendship is actually... [39:01] And until you figure out what is and isn't your business, it's a thorny torture scape. And because the thing about women is I'm obsessed with them. And part of why I'm obsessed with them is also because I'm scared of them because they're too smart.

[39:14] I see. Do you know what I mean? [39:16] You might not feel that way. I don't, but I understand what you mean because it is... [39:24] I think it's very honest to bring up the fact that, [39:30] complicated people, interesting, complicated people. [39:34] uh, often provide complicated, interesting, like relationships. And there were times when I would watch girls and I'd be like, are they friends? Yeah. [39:43] The answer was often no. Yeah. I mean, they were holding on to an idea. Part of the reason they were friends is because sometimes when people are young, they hold on to certain friends, not just because of the good feelings they give them, but because they get to feel superior or they get to feel.

Yes. They get to feel like. [40:03] in contrast, they're winning or they get to feel like they're shinier because they're next to the pretty person, whatever it is. And you're still like you're not when you're in your 20s, you're not even that far out of high school. Yeah. You don't even haven't even yet let go of all that stuff. And now this is insane. I'm I have amazing. My female friends are incredible. I'm not afraid of them, but I also... [40:24] in my, there's something about the ways that women can see each other and know each other that can feel very exposing.

And the thing that's really nice is now I feel that the majority of my female relationships have, there was just a day where I woke up and went, I haven't had to exchange a really heavy email in a while. Like I haven't had to remember once having a fight with a, [40:47] girlfriend in [40:49] in our twenties and we were like going back and forth in these long point to point. Now I will not, if someone raises points with me, [40:57] I will not be addressing the points. Like I'm not going, I'm not.

You're not bolding the points. And then here are my responses to the points. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not going to make notes on your DocuSign and send it back to you. That's not what's happening. But we were doing that. And I remember showing it to like a boyfriend outrage. And he was like, I don't even know what I mean. It's like you guys are in like a scholastic writing competition and you're each trying to write the best essay about why the other one [41:27] And then – [41:27] And then moments later, everyone's apologizing, going, I didn't mean any of that.

And it's like, well, that was a lot of energy to expend on this creative writing exercise. It's like what the kids say, like the kids say, say less. [41:37] Say less. Say less. That's a hard one. Someone told me recently that if somebody writes you, I mean, have you ever seen that meme where someone's like – [41:47] Uh, it's, it's, [41:48] congrats or sorry that happened to you. I don't know. I'm not trying to read all that. [41:54] Somebody writes someone a really long text. Yes, I don't know. I'm not trying to read all that.

Yeah, I'm not trying to read all that. Aubrey Plaza on the set of Parks used to take my phone when I was texting someone, and she would erase it and then just write no. [42:06] And I'd be like, oh, I guess I could say that too. I could just say no. Well, there's a big thing, which is my brother taught me. He's like, do not ever reply with more lines than the person wrote you. [42:21] This episode is brought to you by Burlington. Here's a question for you. When was the last time you stopped by a Burlington?

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[44:21] Forester Hybrid and Crosstrek Hybrid. Visit com slash hybrid to learn more. Maximum range based on EPA estimated combined fuel economy and a full tank of fuel. Actual mileage and range may vary. [44:37] It's funny, your parents, you know, you talk about it in your book, you have really successful art, artist parents who are in that art world, which is talk about it like in the rooms that are small. I mean, there's like high fashion. There's like hyper intellectualism. There's and there's the art world that they both live in. [45:06] I went.

Improv contact dance, babe, that is wide open. Anybody can get in there. You just got to keep one point of contact between your bodies for the whole time. It's such a perv fest. Like anything that's like, we have to touch each other. You're like, why? I remember I went to one of the classes when I was at Oberlin because I used to do like a column for the Oberlin grape. Shout out to all you, to all you grape writers out there. And, um, it was like, I'd go and try things on [45:36] going to do cap aware today.

And I went and did contact improv. And basically my thesis was like, [45:41] perverts like that was i left because i remember they were like okay now everybody remove one article of clothing of your choice and everyone was like pants you know right away i mean that is the thing about the 2000s is you look back and you're pretty much like you could just take a stamp to pretty much everything and be like perverts yeah um but before we get off girls when now we're getting into the weeds but now when jessa betrayed hannah yeah that was hard that was hard for a lot

[46:11] Don't make me do that. I bet it's a real villain move. [46:14] But what it allowed us, I think, in the writing was it allowed us to really see Hannah in a way that we hadn't yet. Yeah. And. [46:25] Also, it was just like the end of a cycle of story. I also think that... [46:31] Part of the reason that [46:33] the way she justified that to herself in the moment is that she was like, well, Hannah hasn't maybe always been the most considerate friend to me. And she might've had, Hannah might have this idea.

Here's what friends don't do. They don't sleep with your boyfriend, your ex-boyfriend, and they don't, I don't know, you know, they don't sleep with your ex-boyfriend. They don't push you in front of a car and everything else is fair game. And she's like, no, you've cut away at our friendship with all of these other little moves. And the other thing is because Hannah doesn't, [47:00] see herself as a person with any power. She doesn't realize that she's capable of hurting anybody else's feelings. She's the world is happening to her. And I hope that as she grows, she realizes that actually she is often happening to the world.

And I just want to say kudos to you for that moment, not only because it was audacious writing and just moving the story forward, but we were paying attention to Jessa and Hannah. Like that's who we were caring about. [47:30] we were 11. So it was... [47:33] it was always really interesting when we got to really dig into the story together. Yeah. Because often we were just, you know. Yeah. Yeah. [47:41] in the same room, at the same party, raising our eyebrows at the same thing. And when we got to do those big, chunky, emotional scenes together, it was amazing.

But I do remember her... [47:51] When I was directing the scene where she and Adam kissed for the first time, she was really, I could see her panic because it went against every instinct she had about. [48:00] behavior. And I have to say, I'm not, he's not really my boyfriend. I'm not really going to get mad at you. Right. [48:06] He's actually just acting, acting. And so are we. And at the end of the day, neither of us kissed each other's ex-boyfriend. So we're going to be fine. Yeah. [48:15] And probably even if one of us did kiss each other's ex-boyfriend, [48:18] we'd be fine.

And you were like, put on this Patagonia lightweight, put on this Patagonia, call this man to paint your walls and we're going to be fine. Okay. I want to get your hot takes on a few things. These are completely random things, but I feel like you have strong hot takes that I would love to hear about. Okay, great. And there's no right or wrong. [48:39] Okay. TikTok. I spent, you're amazing on TikTok. Thank you. Welcome to TikTok. I've seen your TikToks. My algorithm knows who I am, obviously. And a lot of them are from your bed.

But what I like about TikTok, I mean, I'm sure like everything in the culture is changing, but what I like about it is it seems like it's allowed a lot of people to find like-minded folks and to find people who [49:09] found her friends and that I like. Found your friends and also I think there's just good comedy there. There's beyond. I think there's good comedy. There's good comedy. There's good educational content. Yeah. And, you know, I don't want to be watching someone like sell me a freckle stick, but I do.

I mean, my TikTok algorithm when I still had it was... [49:29] Women with pigs. And I like when there's us in Australia where sex work is legal. I love to watch women count their money and talk about their experiences and and their money counters. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. ASMR nails. Also, I like the women who work at like exotic dancing clubs and are at the front and there and you don't see the patrons, but you see them deciding who's going to come in. [49:59] I love women at work in all ways.

I love, and sometimes what's hard is you'll watch someone over time and they start really authentic. And then you see like a little taste of, I mean, this is what I was talking about. A little taste of fame makes us all sick. It's not. It's very true. Shorter question. Diet Coke. Yes or no? Do you know the kids have been calling it fridge cigs? Yeah. Love it. I love Diet Coke. I don't think it's an everyday thing. Agree. My mother. It's a treat. It's a treat. If you do a trick.

If you do a trick, you get a Diet Coke. [50:29] Every time she gets a mammogram, and since she was 40, she, every time she gets a mammogram, she gets a New York City hot dog and a Diet Coke, a dirty water hot dog and a Diet Coke. So it's her, she has the full carcinogens package after a successful mammogram. Meg Salter, O'Mary. [50:45] I'm so excited. We love Meg. I'm so excited. Glee will be that show. That woman. She's such a funny special person. She is hilarious. I've had the pleasure of working with her a few times.

Also, I'm loving how she's interacting. Talking about fame. She's found her way. Something really interesting. Least favorite current fashion trend? I've always said that my style is [51:15] bratty five-year-old with a credit card. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. You feel that, right? Like it's like a girl who's like, my dad gave me this and she said, I can get whatever I want. And then you, you just can, because so many of the things that also, because my parents have good taste when I was a kid, a lot was like, you don't want that.

That's not, you don't want that sparkly leopard velour tunic and matching leg warmers. Yes, I do. And now I'm an adult who [51:45] I love that you know a ton about really... [51:50] like esteemed artists and writers. And then also you like, you don't feel like a snob about it. It's hard because, you know, New York, [52:00] Kids can sometimes have access to stuff and then people feel like they're not allowed to get in the room and you do not give off that vibe. I like that. [52:10] I mean, I love reality television.

Yeah. Do you still love reality television? I don't, but I... Did you used to? No. I mean, I wasn't a Housewives fan because it fucks with my nervous system a little bit. I get it. The way people are arguing and misunderstanding each other. I do enjoy a Below Deck. I enjoy a jobs-based reality show. You like jobs-based programming. And I will say one nice thing about England is there's a lot of shows that you can watch that are unscripted but relaxing.