A Finals Pick, Greatest Knicks Ever, ‘Made’ N.Y.C. Stars, and Big NFL Trades With Max Kellerman

[00:00] *thud* [00:02] Thank you. [00:06] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by PayPal. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast. [00:11] podcast network where we put up a new rewatchables on Sunday night. [00:15] It might have been the best one we've ever done. It's at least in the running. It was 2001 A Space Odyssey, me, Sean Fentany, [00:22] and the one and only Steven Spielberg. Just an incredible episode. We thought we were going to have him for like 75 minutes. He stayed for two hours and... [00:32] just put on a film school clinic for us.

What a rush. What a great time. Claims he's coming back to do Jaws next year. We'll see, but [00:39] We love to have, and I'm really proud of that episode. So go check it out when you have a chance. We're going to have another Rewatchables episode this week. We have a mailbag. [00:48] coming on Thursday. So stay tuned for that one. I am going to be doing a podcast right after game one [00:54] tomorrow night. That's going to be live on Netflix. [00:58] Get ready for that as well. The Knicks are in the finals.

Had to have Max Kahneman. [01:03] to just talk about football trades, the Knicks, Wemby, what should OKC do, greatest Knicks of all time. We tried to cover... [01:12] as many things as we possibly could. And you can check out Max as well on the Game Over podcast with [01:17] Max Cowerman and Rich Paul. So that's coming up next. We're going to take a break. [01:22] We're going to bring our friends from Pearl Jam. And then two hours with Max Kellerman. Next. [01:27] This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by PayPal.

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Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. [03:14] Max Kellerman is here. We are recording on a Tuesday morning. [03:18] Pacific time. [03:20] A day before the New York Knicks are in the NBA Finals. [03:23] A day you never probably thought you'd see again in your lifetime. Had you given up? Getting to the finals? [03:27] possible. [03:28] Yeah. Winning the finals, something else. Impossible. We're going to talk about that. I have a whole bunch of next stuff for you, but I want to talk about football first, just because I didn't get a chance like.

[03:37] The NBA, every time they think they have the stage... [03:39] They have Wemby coming in, vanquishing OKC. We have a Knicks-Spurs-Wet Dream Finals. The face of the league. Everyone loves him. Oh, my God. Worldwide sensation. [03:51] And the NFL is like, hold my beer. Versus the biggest market and like center of the known universe that is basketball starved. And that is, by the way, a basketball town above all things. Yeah. Perfect for the NBA. And they can get bumped off the back page. Hardest ticket in probably the history of New York sports in the NFL is like.

[04:11] Two monster trades for you today. How about this? We're going to take it for one day from you. A buck thirty-five? [04:17] per seat, the first seats that sold. [04:19] $270,000 for two course. I was thinking about that. My dad was always in this, but like my dad in the 08 finals, [04:27] You know, since season tickets, it's 74 for the Celts. But... [04:31] It was bad for, I don't know, 15 years. They had one decent team. And then the 0-8 finals, they play the Lakers. And it's like... [04:39] it's a lot of money I could get for these tickets.

I can basically pay for the last seven years. But it's like, well, what's the point of having the tickets if I'm not going to go to these games? But you do have to do the mental math for it. You got to go to at least one. [04:51] I feel like you got to go to all, but I would understand if people sold. [04:54] Yeah. We never had season tickets growing up. It was always like, yeah, I got box seats. And I'm like, well, what are we doing up here? Well, when I was a kid, box seats, man, sat down there.

So, so like I was a bleacher creature. Yeah. [05:06] Um, [05:07] football. [05:08] Miles Garrett. Yeah. [05:10] for Jared verse a one, a two and a three and three different years. Um, [05:14] in a lot of ways, a much bigger trade than Parsons, because Jared Burst is awesome. [05:19] I was kind of stunned by this one. The Rams... [05:24] They're zagging every year. They're always trying to, everyone's doing this. [05:29] We're doing this. We don't care about first-round picks, whatever. We'll just try to pick up guys later in the draft.

[05:34] We're going to go in over and over again on these guys in their prime. [05:37] And it's mostly work. They won a Super Bowl. They're always relevant. They always feel like they're one of the five or six best teams ever. [05:44] I wanted to hate this trade for them. [05:47] Because it was like, man, first is really good. Like, is that upgrade worth all you're giving up? But then I kept thinking back to all the Browns games I watched the last couple years, especially last year. He's just, Garrett's getting double teamed.

[06:01] And the line is just going backwards anyway. He makes everyone better. Yeah. But versus, look, when I first heard about the trade, I just assumed it was draft picks. [06:08] I'm like, oh, they gave up this, this, this. Oh, wait, and verse? [06:11] And verse... [06:13] got to do it if you're the ramps. Yeah. You must do it. First of all, [06:16] Miles Garrett's wearing the crown. [06:19] So there's a lineal champ in football, too, on the defensive side. It went from J. Watt. [06:25] to Aaron Donald, [06:27] to Miles Garrett.

This is the Miles Garrett defensive era right now. And he's in his prime. That's a fun championship belt, by the way. Reggie White had it for a few years. LT. Yeah. Reggie White. Bruce Smith popped in there. Yeah. Maybe between those two. [06:43] Um, yeah, there's like, it is. And every era has that guy. Occasionally it's like, well, yeah. [06:50] Khalil Mack never had it. This guy never had it. But actually, it was really always Aaron Donaldson. Maybe you can find a few years. But by and large, J. Watt, [06:59] Yeah.

[07:00] Aaron Donald, Miles Garrett. [07:02] And I'm sure that that's not the first thing they had in mind. Hey, let's make verse into an even better player, right? Yeah. But if the opportunity presents itself to get a special player, you go all in, you figure out the rest later. [07:15] Especially with how close they were last year. That was a Super Bowl. No offense, Pats fans, but it was very clear sometimes. I take no offense. I'm not even sure we should have been in the Super Bowl. Out of the AFC, you're saying?

I was talking to my buddy, Gus Ramsey, yesterday, who's a huge Broncos fan, and I was just like, I can't believe you guys didn't beat us. That Bo Nix thing was such a crazy end-of-the-game fluke, and I just... [07:41] Denver gets to 20 points if they have Bo Nix in that game. That's not a 10-7 game. No, but that's a pretty even match. It's like the junior varsity Rams-Seahawks. Right, right. Pretty even matchup could go either way. We couldn't block, though. No. The further I get away from the playoffs, I'm like, I can't believe we thought we were going to win the Super Bowl.

Yeah, you went on it. Both sides of our line couldn't block. And then Seattle was like, oh, Will Campbell, we're going to attack this side, too. And they just destroyed us. And Drake may look like a deer in headlights in the Super Bowl. [08:11] Okay, first things first. So [08:13] So this is what I love about what the Rams did. Yeah. [08:18] Is your faith misplaced? Yes or no? [08:21] Or have you put it in the right place? [08:23] Hey, I know what we'll do. [08:24] We'll trade for James Harden.

That'll win us a championship and we'll give him everything he needs. Right? Misplaced faith. [08:30] especially when it comes out they could have had Drew Holiday instead. That is brutal. How did they decide on James Harden over Drew Holiday? [08:39] That's insane. I couldn't believe that. [08:42] So the Rams traits [08:44] Let's back up before Stafford. Yeah. They used a lot of draft capital to get Jared Goff. Yeah. Jared Goff, not just like we had the number one pick. Jared Goff represents multiple high level draft picks in order to move up to get Goff.

And it worked. You made a Super Bowl. Yeah. But you didn't win a Super Bowl. [09:02] So then you put even more draft capital, multiple high end picks to turn golf into Stafford thinking that is the difference between making and winning a Superbowl. And it worked and they were right. And it almost worked twice. Right. So like, [09:20] Is the faith placed in the right place? Matthew Stafford. Would they give up for Devontae? [09:24] Was that second? [09:26] Yeah, it wasn't a first. Yeah, no. [09:29] I'd have to check that.

They signed him. They signed Devontae. I knew it wasn't a first. They signed Devontae. [09:36] But like that is when you think about. [09:39] What that took to get Stafford, the draft capital, people would say you're insane. They won a Super Bowl. They came this close to winning another Super Bowl. So you have a two-year window right now. [09:48] And who knows if he'll be good two years from now. They also really, they draft well in the later rounds, which I wonder, like, when you know you don't have picks... [09:56] you're basically crossing off the first 30 guys on the board, right?

And you're spending way more time on the next level of guys. If you're good at that. That's how you get at like Puka Nakua. [10:05] If you're good at that, you can trade draft picks. Yeah. Right? They've been good. [10:09] And then even the McDuffie thing is like, [10:13] They'll be better there. [10:14] I forgot they did that. They'll be better there than they were. Like the real, the real separation. Okay. Special teams. Seahawks had a big advantage going into the Superbowl and the secondary Seahawks had an advantage. [10:24] Well, the secondary is kind of shored up now.

[10:27] And then you add Miles Garrett, like, [10:30] Even if it doesn't work, it's worth the shot. Like, take a swing. That is a swing worth taking. Well, I was like, we're old enough to remember when this... [10:37] Moves like this over the years, when you put a guy that [10:42] Couldn't get over the hump and also wasn't getting enough attention for how great he was. And then you put him on the right team. [10:48] in a big city. [10:49] with a chance to win, you always get the bump. You get the bump.

With Stafford, it was so unclear. It was like, he's always... [10:55] considered top five arm talent, right? But then after he got to the point in his career where it really wasn't clear, he's [11:03] Usually a great quarterback, even in a bad organization, keeps you at a certain level. He did for a while, but not always. It was like, well... [11:10] Is Stafford a little overrated by the real football heads or is this just a bad situation for him? [11:16] Stafford is [11:17] That's Trevor Lawrence now. Yeah. It was the same thing where the nerds were saying he was better than he was, but the eye test was like, all right, well, where is it?

And then he finally made the playoffs. But Stafford, I could never figure out because- [11:30] He's on the Lions, the worst football team of, you know, run franchise. But he did have receivers. [11:36] So it was always like, what is this guy? Yeah. It always seemed like he was getting the shit kicked out of him. But he put up numbers. He did. Yeah. But there was a point I remember when it was like, he's going to be a Hall of Famer someday. And, and. [11:47] The counter is like, really? [11:49] Matthew Stafford?

I mean, now it's a surefire hole. Now it's a surefire hole. And even to win that Super Bowl, you think about, I think we've discussed this [11:57] here, but [11:59] When Brady is defending the title in Tampa and he leads the team down and scores at the end of the game, [12:06] The reason Brady wins all those championships, the reason guys like Kobe and these guys won a lot of games like, [12:13] you think about like the Sacramento game with the Lakers is because everyone on the court believes that, [12:19] That that guy is destined to win.

Right. Kind of what the Knicks have. With Jalen Brunson. Stumbled into with Brunson. So they just feel like if we can hang around. That guy. That guy. But does the other team believe it too? Yeah. Brady's on the field. Everyone. Both teams believe it. Yeah. And like, okay, here comes. Like they win now. And Stafford drove him right back down the field. [12:40] and won the game and then went on to win the Super Bowl. He's a special guy. Like to overcome that kind of stuff. That's it's like like Kurt Schilling, whatever you think about Kurt Schilling should be in the Hall of Fame, obviously.

And and. [12:53] When guys like... [12:55] Brocious and Tino hit home runs at the end of games. That signals this ain't your year, especially 2001, 9-11, and in New York, and the Yankees are destined to win. But a guy like Curt Schilling is like, not so fast, right? Right. What was it? Destiny, whatever in destiny or... [13:14] What do you have? It was like we're strippers or whatever. [13:18] Mystique and destiny or I forgot what two words it was, but everyone was using that in New York that the Yankees are going to win.

Yeah. And the retort was – [13:28] Those are, you know. [13:30] That's all they want. I kind of still can't believe they didn't win that year. [13:33] Part of it was because Rivera got dinged up in the ninth, which was inconceivable in the moment. Actually, even worse than that. [13:42] Rivera, who's one of the best fielding players at his position of all time, turned around. Game was over. Double play ball. Turned around and threw it into center field. [13:51] Stuff like that happens. And then you bring the infield in and you get a little pop out.

But the point is, when you have a guy like that on your team, it – [14:02] All that kind of team of destiny stuff on the other side goes away. Stafford's that kind of guy. He had to overcome Brady to do that. When Stafford has the ball late in the game, I thought the Rams were going to win the game late in the game, even though Seahawks you knew were a little bit better than them, but it's like they got Stafford. [14:18] The Miles Garrett piece. [14:20] Um, [14:22] I don't think most people know what he looks like.

[14:24] Now, you could say this for most football players, [14:27] But like if... [14:28] I don't know, Carl Anthony Towns walked into a restaurant. Most people would know what he looks like because we see him on a basketball court. [14:34] Football players, for the most part, we don't know what they look like. I think people know what the quarterbacks look like. [14:39] You don't think they know what Garrett looks like? I think so. [14:42] I don't know, would my son know what he looks like? I'm just thinking the recognizability of

[14:48] First of all, he's had his helmet off on the field. We know famously. That's true. [14:51] So I think there's just a level of fame that he doesn't have that this Rams thing is going to immediately solve. He was this underground... [14:58] He's playing at Sunday, 1 o'clock ET. [15:01] getting the shit kicked out of his team's getting the shit kicked out of them every game basically [15:05] He's on one Thursday night football game a year, probably against the Steelers. [15:09] and maybe a crappy Monday night game. And then everyone is telling us how great he is, but...

[15:14] Sometimes this happens. I remember this happened to Moss in the mid-2000s when [15:19] He just became irrelevant for like... [15:22] three years when when you're just on shitty teams year after year moss went from is he going to challenge jerry rice as the greatest wide out ever to which oh i guess debatable yeah at the time and then it was like well i guess that didn't happen and then it was like oh wait maybe it did happen when he went to new england [15:38] We got him for a fourth round pick.

[15:42] But that's how bad he was on the Raiders. [15:45] I have him... [15:46] We might have talked about this. I have him second. [15:49] Yeah, who would be second over Moss? [15:51] I feel like Rice 1, Moss 2 is kind of set in stone. No question. People try to push the Torell Owens case every once in a while, and I [15:59] It's just like, doesn't team murdering matter? I love, but... He murdered at least two teams, right? [16:05] Well, the thing, Atio gets a little bit of... Doesn't that matter?

The chemistry stuff has to matter a tiny bit when you're talking about the greatest of the greats. Fine, but then you also have to give him credit for it. And this was... [16:15] trip me out when he plays in the Super Bowl. [16:18] hurt. [16:19] With a broken leg. [16:20] He is the best player on his team. I think he had eight catches, seven or eight catches. He is arguably the best player in the game. We couldn't cover him. [16:28] And he was criticized heading into that game. It's he's a selfish player.

And I was thinking, wait, this guy's rep is so bad in the media that playing with a broken leg, he's criticized for being selfish. And then he's the best player on the field. It was tough. It's about a lot to how annoying he was in the 2000s. But also how great he was. [16:47] The J. Brown piece has just a whiff of that because he was unhappy with the Eagles, but [16:52] watching from my TV in, [16:55] He should have been unhappy. I didn't understand anything about their offense. So the Pats get him.

Not last year. It was rumored for, I don't know, three months. It was pretty... [17:04] Once the Eagles started drafting receivers, it was pretty clear it was going to happen. They gave up a 28 first. I wish they had top 10 protected it, but they don't do it in football. Yeah, why don't they do this? They don't do it. Are they allowed to do it in football? They are allowed to do it. They just, you could have done it where it's like- Make it top 15 at least, right? Because if Drake May gets hurt, something happens.

You wind up in the middle of the pack. That's the NFL. Well, it was interesting that they didn't make it 27 because I think- [17:27] If I'm the Patriots, I wouldn't have because of the schedule of Super Bowl hangover. [17:32] Um, [17:34] If you're going to stink in 27 or 28, 27 is probably the safer bet. You think that's the Pats? I figured that's the Eagles. I think that's the Pats. I figured that's the Eagles saying, all right, we don't want. [17:44] a late first round. It's practically like a second round pick.

[17:48] Why don't we roll the dice and see maybe something happens in the next year or two? I think it was the Eagles because they're playing the percentages of what happens to – [17:57] the team that loses the Super Bowl and gets the first place schedule and had everything go right here before. You think it's the Eagles wanting the next, yeah, I agree. I think the Eagles want, [18:07] Not this year. No, I think the Patriots wanted it to be 28th. [18:11] Because of some fear of 27. [18:14] what could happen.

If I was the Eagles, I would have won in 27. Really? Yeah. No, I want 28, because the thing about J. Brown... [18:22] And this happened with Jalen Hurts. What was Hurts' big problem before they got Brown? Was that he couldn't see the middle of the field. Yeah. Right? Then you get a guy who, and like, is J. Brown a little past it? Yeah. He's probably not as good as he was a couple years ago. [18:34] But he's never. We don't know. They didn't throw him the ball. Yeah, right. You don't know.

But he's also his age. It's the whole thing. He's never a guy who relied on speed. It's not like, oh, my God, J. Brown is a one on one matchup nightmare because he gets all this separation. He's a nightmare because he doesn't need separation. He's going to catch the ball. Right. So a guy like that who's tough, who can go across the middle of the whole thing. [18:55] makes a guy like Jalen Hurts go from, hey, is he going to work out to almost two times Super Bowl MVP? [19:02] And you got a guy like Drake May, who was in a version of the situation Hertz was in.

He looked lost in the Super Bowl. You get a receiver like that, and that could make it that can easily have him taking the next step, especially in the moment of truth. [19:16] There's a lot of good stats with J. Brown against man-to-man where he's basically like [19:21] The most unstoppable guy in the league. Yeah, because that was the biggest issue with the Pats. None of the receivers could get open as the year went on. [19:28] You could feel it. And then in the playoffs, when they start going against these awesome defenses, they [19:32] Not to make excuses for Drake because he – [19:36] I don't think he was healthy, but he was also really bad in the Super Bowl.

But then they do that all 22 shots, and you watch what he's looking at. Yeah. [19:43] And everybody's just blanketed. They would have like the straight line guys open. [19:47] Then every once in a while digs, but it really, the second half of the year wasn't open as much. But that's the thing about Adrian Brown. He's kind of never open, but he's always open. Yeah. Like wherever he is, you can throw him the ball and there's a good shot. He's going to catch it. And that. [20:00] That is like the perfect player.

[20:02] For a young quarterback who needs to take a step forward. He had 145 targets in 22 and 158 in 23. [20:11] And then the last two years was 97 and 121. And it added up when you watched it because – [20:17] And I get it. Like they were doing that weird math thing with the possessions where it was like, we're going to shorten the game because we have a better team. [20:23] Every play felt like it was 35, 40 seconds, and the pace of the team just seemed way off.

[20:29] But if I'm AJ Brown, I'm... [20:31] He clearly got fed up with it. Now he's on this Patriots team that desperately needs him. He's going to have Dobbs next to him. They have a bunch of young receivers. The offensive line's... [20:41] Okay. [20:43] It's going to be slightly better. The Eagles just had... [20:46] Their offense was ridiculous last year. Yeah. Right. There was no real reason for, I mean, you can, you, you could try to rationalize. It was a bad idea. And in the empirically, it was a bad idea.

Right. [20:57] Well, which part? Like how? Because to me, it's like you're going to pay $50 million a year to Hertz, and you're going to pay $60 million to two receivers to... [21:06] And then you're basically going to walk the ball up the court. [21:09] You've built this team that's supposed to do this. That dominates both sides of the line. Yeah, and now you're playing a different style than the team you built, which I never really fully understood. I know it's frustrating with the Philly fans. So the best case – [21:22] And he's a variable guy, which we...

[21:24] is a big piece of this. Fraybo loves his guys. [21:27] Rable needed this, by the way. [21:31] He needed something good to happen. [21:34] he got AJ it was all worth it yeah you know it's been two weeks without a story and now he's got AJ Brown that's good when coaches should go get their guys yeah [21:45] Well, I was looking at the wide receiver trades because – [21:49] Best case was Moss. When it gets in trouble... [21:52] When you give up big capital, like a first-round pick, the Cowboys gave up two for Joey Galloway that year, and he immediately got hurt.

[22:00] Roy Williams, Percy Harvin, people like that. That's where you get into trouble. You don't get into trouble when you're getting one of the best receivers in the league. Actually, everyone thinks that like forever now, it's like, [22:11] Quarterback's the most important guy, obviously, right? And then everyone's thinking, well, then his protection is this left tackle. And then it's defensive end off the right side to go past rusher because that – and that – no, it's actually quarterback 1-1A. [22:26] is a legit elite receiver. [22:28] At least one. A. It's so much more valuable than every other position.

That's what the league is now. By the way, you bring up... [22:38] Randy Moss. [22:39] When the Giants got Plaxico Burris, they won the Super Bowl. [22:43] Then the next year, he literally shoots himself in the foot, right? And they don't have plexiglass. And I'm thinking at the time, well, no one receiver. No, it was night and day difference, right? Like when you have an actual player, [22:54] elite top five guy [22:57] top 10 guy. [22:59] It's other than the quarterback, the most important position on the field. But a lot of the 11 Giants so annoying to me.

[23:05] You didn't even have that. [23:07] Their second Giants Super Bowl. No, we didn't have that, but we had some good receivers. Terrible loss. [23:13] To me, that loss is much worse for me as a Pats fan than 07. Can I tell you? 07, they beat us. [23:20] That second one, 11's ridiculous. That second one was so amazing as a Giants fan. I was more exhausted than... [23:28] After watching that game than I remember at any point in my life, because when I could have stole the Superbowl, you didn't have a better team.

[23:36] I could imagine a little kid growing up in Boston somewhere watching that game. And all he knows, his first memory is that they somehow, the perfect season, they're about to be anointed. Greatest team in the history of sports, right? Yeah. And they somehow lose in the most unlikely way, like the Tyreek Hatch. Yeah, yeah. [23:55] It's happening again. [23:58] Again. It's like a train wreck for a Patriots fan. Did you go to that game? I did not. [24:04] I went to that game from the moment Brady had the safety on the intentional grounding that I'm still don't know how that was the call.

[24:11] And the game was just off. We had Grok on one leg. [24:15] The Giants, who was it, Brandon Jacobs? It was just a weird Giants offense. It was a lot of like, the score was always weird the whole game. It was like one of those games where it was like 15 to 12. You let them score intentionally. Yeah, every piece of that game was kind of off. [24:32] And then the Manning head, like you hear Belichick say, and this is what Belichick did at his best. Take away your first and second option.

Beat us with your third option. He did. Like that's okay. I was in the end zone where Eli had that throw. Yeah. [24:47] The throw is incredible. Yes, it's one of the best throws ever. I think he, what was he on, like his own eight or his own nine? I don't remember. But he just like, it was a fucking frozen rope. It was unbelievable. 35 yards. Catching the guy like this in the one spot where he could get it. And that's, if you're making the Eli Hall of Fame case, [25:04] Which I do.

[25:05] It's whatever he was doing on that last Giants drive, even though he tried to throw it to us three times. It was. But he was scrambling for his life and just. [25:14] creating shit and it somehow worked. And then that Manningham throw up. [25:18] The same reason that Peyton... [25:20] a lot of his career was bad in the playoffs is because when you are the chosen one and you are expected to be perfect, right? [25:27] Man, there's a lot on the line in those moments. When you're his kid brother, it's like, if I fail, big deal.

So why not go for it, right? Like there's no fear of failure for a guy like Eli. [25:39] Do you think, now that we have Dart, [25:42] you [25:42] It's the face of the Giants. Does he get compared to Eli, or is it too far gone now? He's more talented. Yeah. You know, it's a different game now, but no. I mean, I... [25:53] Eli's just kind of over here. [25:56] He's a Hall of Famer. First of all, he had an Iron Man streak. [25:59] He was playing in bad weather city, like for the, with the wind and everything at like Meadowlands was not.

So that's the real Hall of Fame case is him in the playoff games. [26:08] The freezing cold in Lambeau, the candlestick. Twice against Favre and Rodgers. And taken huge, huge, huge punishment. [26:17] He was tough as nails. The toughest motherfucker. And that's. [26:20] I don't... See, I have trouble with the Hall of Fame in general because I feel like we've just... [26:26] increase the capacity of the restaurant to ridiculous. Yeah. [26:29] It's just the best muffin ruined now. But it's inevitable because once a stool, whoever the worst guy is who gets in.

[26:36] That will now be the benchmark. And people say, well, he's better than this guy. Why isn't he in? I'll do respect to Michael Cooper, but that's where the NBA Hall of Fame is now. Like Michael Cooper's in. So if you go through the Knicks team right now, it's like, who could make the Hall of Fame from the Knicks? It's like, who wouldn't make the Hall of Fame from the Knicks? You've got three starters who could do it. Yeah. I mean, Towns is probably a Hall of Famer at this point.

And it's nuts. Brunson? Yeah, Brunson definitely. And then the question would be OG. [26:59] If OG could stay healthy for a couple of years. And then it's like, what if Mikael Bridges plays... [27:04] 1700 games and is the number four guy on a title team yeah i think i don't know anymore i don't know what a hall favor is but but you have to like cooper you could hang your hat on something that defined him at a certain awesome role player right like you know so i [27:18] But although if Bridges keeps playing, he's two different guys, regular season playoffs.

He's like during the regular season, it's like you five first on that. Are you out of your mind? He's a nice three and D guy. But that's it. Three and D plus. Halfway through the Atlanta series, it seemed like a catastrophe. Every playoffs, he's like this stuff. Like his defense is unbelievable. He's hitting shots. He was great on Maxey. I love how he figured out how to play with Brunson and Towns in the playoffs for some reason. It clicked. [27:48] in the right spots. Because he changed the way they use towns, really.

That's the whole thing. [27:52] We got to talk about that finals. We're going to take one break. [27:55] and hit the funds. [27:56] All right, the 2026 NBA Finals is here. New York. [28:00] San Antonio, we're going to make some picks. [28:03] I am going to probably share... [28:06] Picks for at least a few of the games on my Twitter feed from FanDuel Sportsbook. For the series, though, since we're doing this on a Tuesday. [28:15] I like the Spurs to win the series. I like the Spurs in six, which is five to one odds.

But I think the Spurs would be my series pick as well. I wouldn't mess with the... Wembediyama is almost definitely the finals MVP. You're just better off. [28:29] taking the Spurs money line at that point. So, [28:33] Game to game, I would definitely take San Antonio in game one. [28:37] And then we'll see how it goes. Usually home team wins game one. [28:41] Game 2 becomes... [28:43] a little bit of a test her out slugfest. When I bet, I bet with FanDuel. It's a brand I trust. Easy to build NBA bets on FanDuel as well and find futures, all kinds of things you want to do.

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[31:34] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905. [31:42] today. Who are you picking for the finals? This close to taking the Knicks. [31:49] They check a lot of boxes for the nobody believes in us pick. [31:52] They're like maybe one guy short on the bench right now, but it doesn't. I wish we don't know the Robinson situation. [31:59] That's the whole thing. He's really their sixth man. He doesn't, but he's really. You've seven guys. Yeah. Including Robinson. Yeah. Yeah. [32:07] I sham it and him off the bench McBride.

We'll see. We'll see what McBride looks like again. I know, but we'll see what he looks like against San Antonio. Yeah. Um, [32:16] Robinson you need for because you need fouls and he's also a great playoff performer. [32:22] Like he's really is a great defensive guys. You don't always think of like that, but like watch him play in the playoffs. You go championship player. I want him on my team. He's Wemby kryptonite too, because Zach and I talked about this a little on Saturday. [32:36] The way to kind of hit, and Hartenstein did a little bit in the last series, but when Wemby's playing that box in one zone, whatever the fuck he's doing, and he's, especially with Brunson, where they'll have guys on Brunson and then Wemby kind of shifting over.

[32:50] and you leave the back of the basket open. And that's like Mitch's specialty. It's like, you're not going to box me out. I'm just going to get 10 offensive rebounds. [32:57] That was what OKC, anytime they felt like they had momentum, it was on the... [33:01] offensive board. They need Mitch for that for anything. Knicks are good on the offensive glass. Yeah. OG would be the other one. [33:08] Knicks seem like they're healthy, except for Robinson. [33:11] the, [33:12] That's a huge part of it too, by the way. That's a huge part of it.

Like health this time of year, they happen to be very healthy right now. Well, not playing basketball always helps. No question. You just like get in the nine days off. And as the road team. [33:28] If you have a long layoff, I hate to have home court. [33:32] You could give it up game one before you get that out of your system, you know, the rust gun. But if you're on the road, so what? You lose game one. [33:39] Now you're rested. You have a good shot at splitting on the road and taking home court.

So it's like kind of working out in their favor. And they beat them in the cup on a neutral site. They came a possession away from beating them in San Antonio. They have a way of playing this first. The teams are even. They're even. Because the Knicks slow it up. And when they have their version of the death team, [34:00] lineup on the floor. [34:02] They can hit shots late in the clock. So they're slowing up the pace and scoring late in the clock. And that kind of stymies the Spurs offense, I think.

[34:11] Here's what I'm going to pick this first. [34:14] Here's what I think really hurts the Knicks in this series is all the layoffs between the games. [34:19] Because they have this 22111 schedule, and they've spaced stuff out. And I think that's really helpful to Wemby. 100%. I felt like in the OKC series... [34:28] it was a constant battle of, [34:30] There were just games where he just seemed like he was dead. Know why they won the series? Because they could play him 28 minutes in game six. Right. If he had to play 34, 38 minutes in game six, they may have lost.

That double overtime game in game one, which just wreaked havoc on both rosters, but you could really feel it. I just think, especially after seeing him in person a couple of times, and you've seen him in person too, right? Yep. [34:56] It's just he's not really meant to run up and down a basketball court. Like that's not what God created a 7'7 guy to do is just run up and down on a wooden floor like that. [35:06] And he does it and he's about as graceful as you can. Like him and Kareem are the two tall guys I've ever seen.

[35:12] who seemed graceful as they went up and down. But he started for around 42, 43 minutes, [35:17] all the stuff he has to do defensively, all the hard rolls they do with him to kind of create three points. And it's just, [35:24] Even the way he closes out, like he'll close out. The play is lost. Like the guy's going to hit the shot. But just because Wemby gives the effort to close out and put his hand up, [35:33] I'd love to know what the numbers are. I'll bet you shooting percentages get cut in half.

You have a guy shooting a three. Wemby's just, he's not in position. He's not going to get there in time. But just the fact that he can kind of blot out the sun, like you can't see the basket. At the last second, guys who you expect to hit the shot don't hit the shot. There was a great clip that somebody took a chat in game six. [35:57] We're in the same possession. He tried to challenge Wemby twice and just kind of bailed on it the second time. It was like, okay, like he was going to take a three from the corner and, [36:06] And part of the problem with Chet in that series was he's got one of those long developing jumpers.

[36:10] And Wemby was always able to come out and challenge it. So then he decided, all right, I'm going to take him off the dribble. And he beat him off the dribble. [36:16] Did a spin move and it's like, oh, he's going to block this. And he just kind of bailed and... [36:21] That's seven foot one. He's not used to be like he's, you know, it's like, why can't a lefty hit a lefty? Because they never see the lefties. Right. Right. When does Chet see a guy who's him, but three, four inches taller?

And you got to credit Wemby. I love this about Wemby. When he threw that elbow. [36:37] Exactly. If a guy's hitting you low and the ref doesn't do anything about it, hit him low back. Do it harder. Right. He'll get the message. Wemby swung that elbow and it changed a little bit the way they were playing him. Right. Oh, excuse me. And the elbow helped. And then when he ordered his team, he ordered the code red. Yep. Code red. He did. It was a little fuck you from Wemby. You want him on that line.

Yeah. So like, yeah, like can't handle the truth. [37:02] And he has this thing in him where he looks at everyone's like, [37:06] Well, it's come from when we were kids and Cech got MVP of this. [37:11] tournament. [37:12] Wemby sees Chet. [37:14] He sees the team he's on. He knows what. [37:17] That's my guy. That's my rival. [37:19] And he let him know at every point. [37:22] Chance. I own you. [37:24] To the point where Chet started believing it. [37:27] Right. Like everyone's writing Chet off now, but I don't know.

He could learn from this. Like you could he could actually grow from it. But he got his heart like when Wemby took his heart and everyone, the whole world saw it. Right. So he did that intentionally. He knew like, that's my guy. I got it. I got to make sure he knows he doesn't have a shot. [37:45] We talked about it on Saturday night about the Drexler-Jordan matchup. [37:50] That was a little like that too, where Jordan... [37:52] you know the people like these guys who's better and that was the real thing that was happening for about a week and then jordan was just like all right i've had enough of this he took it personally um [38:03] Yeah, so...

[38:04] The reason I'm picking... [38:06] All due respect to the Knicks, and they do check a lot of my Nobody Believes in Us. The Robinson thing worries me. [38:12] I do think they have a really good team. [38:15] to play the Knicks. Like if you were creating a team to kind of stop Brunson, especially in the fourth quarter, you would say, [38:21] You want... [38:22] these defensive guards and swings that could switch. [38:27] combined with this big tall guy in the back to challenge all like the 12 to 15 footer stuff.

[38:32] I just think it's a bad matchup. So the way for the Knicks to beat them, obviously, is hope Wemby wears down. Hope this first three-point shooting isn't there. [38:41] Hope the crowd is going to come through in your home games. And then just get an awesome OG player. [38:47] Bridges combo. [38:49] If Josh Hart is hitting from outside, it's a hard beat. You know that's going to happen in one of the games. The question is how many times it's going to happen. And then can you get the offensive rebounds?

I see the path for it. [39:03] I just think this is like a generational thing now. [39:06] And I'm not going against it. And I felt the whole year, I was like, are the Spurs, really since December, are they the 90 Bulls or the 91 Bulls? And I think they're telling us they're the 91 Bulls. Well, first of all, [39:19] The 90 Bulls were the best team in basketball. Pittman got a migraine in Game 7. Yeah. Right? Like, you know, otherwise, they probably – everyone's like, oh, Jordan had to win.

No, he didn't. He needed one other all-star with him. He didn't – and then in Game 7, he didn't have him. You can't beat the champs by yourself. But they weren't dominant in the playoffs that year the way they were. No, no, you're right. They took a jump. But next year, they fucking destroyed everybody. But that was also baby Pittman. Like, Pittman made his first all-star game. [39:42] But he wasn't what he would be the next year. He became into his prime, right? 100%. I would say that I agree with you 100% about your analysis of why the Spurs would win.

What got me thinking the Spurs, like I said all season, but from like the middle of the season, I said the Spurs are the best team in basketball. [40:00] They're going to win the championship. [40:02] But by the time the Knicks were finished playing them the third time, I thought, [40:06] If the Knicks come out of the East, they would have like a 40% shot of beating the Spurs. I think 40% is the right number. For what you identified, which is – and it occurred to me in Game 7, actually – [40:18] really the number one name is Castle.

Castle and Harper are puppies. And they're even like out in front of themselves, like a puppy gets out in front of himself. But like they're... [40:28] purebred puppy. These guys are already dogs. They're already a problem. They don't even know what they're doing yet. They're overly exuberant on defense. They can wind up in foul trouble because of how they're bumping around out there. But because of Castle's size and his tenacity, [40:46] It's like you kind of don't want that [40:48] overgrown [40:50] you know, [40:51] eager puppy to, [40:52] At his size...

[40:54] on these smaller Knicks players, you know, like, [40:58] Brunson. They could have him. They could have us put Champagny on him. They could have Vassell, who's taller. They're also like big, strong guys like Brunson. Yes, he's he's strong, but he's short. Mikael Bridges is not built like those other guys. It's like there's a there's a lot of kind of size and strength. [41:15] And like youthful exuberance on the perimeter defender types on the Spurs that I think are a bad matchup for the Knicks. [41:24] We talked about [41:25] on Saturday night mentioned on the podcast I did with Zach, we were like, what is Castle?

I don't even know what he... [41:31] Who's the castle doppelganger? So a bunch of people sent emails to me. [41:36] These were the candidates. This is what got sent to me. [41:40] Guard Kawhi. Yeah, Kawhi. [41:43] More defensive Dwayne Wade. [41:45] More explosive Drew Holiday. That's a good one. [41:49] Um, [41:50] springier art test, [41:52] Ooh, that's, I hadn't even thought of Artest. That's a good one. Yeah, early Artest. But Artest could shoot. [41:57] for his time better than castle can shoot for it. Like, I don't know what the league averages are off the top of my head, but our test was a better shooter in his day than castle is in his.

[42:08] guard Jimmy Butler. [42:10] Another good one. Latrell Sprewell. [42:14] Didn't really see that one, but it made me think. Well, Spree was a good defender. He was energetic. Yeah. But he was, and I guess I see that because he was also athletic defensively. [42:23] leaper guy [42:25] who didn't shoot it especially well. [42:27] But I just get the feeling like Castle's going to be a shooter, a good enough shooter when it's all said and done. [42:32] Better offense, Marcus Smart. [42:36] and Heinz Ward. Those were all the comparisons I got from all these very similar...

Like a basketball player. Just like how Heinz Ward was just like... He's a football player. I'm a good athlete. I'm physical. I can do everything. He's not just a receiver. He's a football player. I can block. I can do in traffic. I like... Who did you say who was second to last... [42:53] Marcus Smart [42:54] That's interesting if smart were... [42:57] bigger and [42:59] I think he's a better offensive player and a better athlete than Marcus Smart was. But I like the way younger Marcus Smart, how balls to the wall he was all the time, which I think Castle has.

[43:10] Also, one of the things I love about Castle and this first team in general is [43:14] they don't seem to wear mistakes in their eyes. [43:17] or like bad shooting or get psyched out or value possessions, they just kind of go short memories. Yeah. When you're talking about like puppies, purebred puppies, like they're just kind of running around and they don't, [43:29] they don't really carry their past with them. And it's like, that's why you say are they 90 or 91 bulls? And my, like the way I interpret that is, [43:37] is that [43:38] short memory and like is that gonna go too much on the side of not valuing the possessions in crunch time because they just go yeah or is that actually good for them because they don't worry about it and if they don't score on that possession or they turn the ball live turnover and it leads to two or three points they're fine it's gone and they're gonna do it again and because they're so aggressive sometimes it's gonna work

[44:02] The other reason is, [44:04] I think I'm taking the Spurs and I don't feel great about it, but, um, [44:09] The competition in the East is, [44:11] It has to be said. They fall 2-1 Atlanta. They change their offense. I love the way they play. To me, they look like the 2014 Spurs crossed with whatever Brunson's doing. [44:23] Um, [44:24] But that Atlanta team, when you look back, [44:27] It's pretty brutal. Like they had like five guys like that were playable. They had one center. [44:33] He couldn't really rebound.

McCollum died as the series went along. They had no [44:37] kind of guy who could calm the runs. They won two games by a point, though. Yeah, and they probably should have gotten swept. They play Philly the next round, and Bede's already done. Bede put one week of the season and he was done, right? Now all you do is shut down Maxie and you're good. [44:52] And then that Cleveland team, [44:54] They're just a mess. Well, yes. But the Knicks weren't... That game one loss was just one of the most egregious, blown...

You knew it was a sweep after that. After that, it's a sweep. When you lose like that, it's a sweep. The coaching combined with them not running back, and they just rolled over. So you go from that, and meanwhile, here are the Spurs... [45:14] who are just going through this gauntlet. Even Portland was like, [45:19] They probably would have been like a 5 or a 6 seed in the East. They're a tough team, and they showed up. [45:26] Yeah, and... [45:27] I don't know, that OKC team they beat. I just, I take that seriously.

I thought OKC was... [45:32] an incredible team. No Jalen Williams, really. Yeah, missing one of the best guys. Missing their second best player. Yeah. That's a lot. [45:39] It's a lot to miss your second best player. Like if this, well... [45:43] The Spurs don't if the Spurs didn't have the Aaron Fox data lost. [45:47] The live ball turnovers were killing them. But that's the thing. So the Spurs didn't have Fox for a couple games, and then he didn't seem right really until game seven. [45:56] And then the Harper thing, Harper in the middle of the series is just useless.

And then kind of came back as it went along. But... [46:03] Um, but I just think, I think the Spurs is 91 bulls. So I'm, [46:07] I'm going Spurs in five. The thing about the Knicks is, I think it's going to be a long series. I do think that. But the thing about the Knicks is, [46:14] They're not beating these teams by 10 or 12 points. I get it. You're feeding everybody into a wood chipper. [46:21] They are [46:23] destroying teams. They have two losses, each by a point. [46:27] And they're beating the brakes off of everyone.

And the team that they are not compared to enough is the 2016, they did lose in the finals, [46:37] Warriors. They have a death lineup. Yeah. Except it's a better shoot. They don't have the two greatest shooters of all time in the death lineup. Right. When Josh Hart is hitting his shots, that's why I say if you want to look at a few key things, if Josh Hart is hot more often than he's cold in this series, he's hot. [46:57] The Knicks are virtually impossible to beat because, you know, [47:00] Because everyone, like all five guys are killing you at that point.

Right. How do you guard that? Especially with. [47:07] the offense running through towns. Who's like not only the best shooting big ever, maybe, but he's also like, [47:15] Kind of Jokic in a way that I didn't understand, right? I'm not saying he's as good as Jokic. I'm saying he's doing some of that stuff. It was impressive. So I think that's really what it comes down to. If Josh Hart is hot in this series, this is going seven games and the Knicks might win. You're probably right. I'm going to amend to Knicks in six.

To the Spurs in six. I'm sorry, Spurs in six. Freudian slip. I'm going to amend to Spurs in six because you're right. I forgot to factor in the one Josh Hart game. That's it. [47:41] And if there could be two or three, five for seven from three or something. Right. So correct score. [47:47] Spurs in six is five to one. [47:50] That also sets up for the devastating... [47:54] Everyone at MSG trying to send the series to the seventh game and just the all time gut punch of. [48:00] By the way, this is an I.

So why did you have Nixon six or seven? [48:04] If the Knicks win, it'll be a seven-game series, I think. [48:06] But by the way, what you said about Wemby, when you said about what you said about Wemby, [48:11] is the thing about him because he's so big so everything's magnified you can see all the detail is it's very apparent when he's fatigued right he looks uncoordinated all of a sudden he's like the most coordinated big guy you've ever seen in your life first of all you've never seen a guy that tall right but yeah he's so coordinated at that size and when he is fatigued you can see oh where's where'd the coordination go you know even on lobs and stuff he starts getting a little like almost like a little kid where little kids start falling down and right you know it's time for a [48:41] But the guy's physiology is just like, this is unexplored territory.

And he is doing everything in his power to make, to give himself the best possible shot. But that schedule where there are essentially no travel days was brutal in the Western Conference finals for him. And more rest is good for Wemby. It's also why guys like LeBron, as they hit their late 30s, it just becomes impossible to put together four straight rounds to win a title. [49:09] Definitely on the defensive end. You have to have younger players. And that's been the thing over and over again that we've seen this decade.

[49:15] is the combination of how the regular season got much harder. It became harder just for guys to carry big minutes. But then you get into that every other day in the third round. You have to have the younger dudes for that. [49:30] So you have Knicks and seven. That would be eight to one. Let's talk about. I have not yet made my pick. I do think like I are going to make it on game over with Rich Paul. I think I will make it on game over. Do it. Do it.

Make it. I would say that it's if I had to handicap it, I think it's a 60 40 type series favoring the Spurs. But 40 is a pretty damn good shot for the Knicks. And I have to think if I like their chances. [49:54] I bet on the Spurs for... [49:57] I had the Spurs before the series. [50:00] And after Game 5... [50:03] I did a hedge on OKC for game six because I thought the Harper Fox thing, I just didn't think those guys were there. And of course, San Antonio won.

[50:11] Then I doubled down and bet on San Antonio game seven. Um, [50:16] Just because of the Wimby piece. And I think ultimately, like, [50:20] I was thinking about it. I was like, [50:22] I just think Wemby's the best player in the league now. And I don't want to go against him in a game seven. I've been saying this since, like, the All-Star break. Yeah, but you still – you have to do it in the playoffs. It's a different level. You got to see, like, the – [50:33] ebb and flow of the games, the fatigue, how do you handle foul trouble, how do you handle when the refs aren't giving you calls.

But you know what he has? But now I think he's there. He's tasted it. That OKC thing was such good seasoning for this finals. Look, it's a hunch until you see him do it. [50:50] Right. My hunch was he's the best player in the league, but you're right. You have to see him do it in this circumstance. But the thing about Wemby that I love that, like, I thought middle of the season, he's better than Jokic. Right. He's better than SGA. I don't think SGA is in the conversation with Jokic and Wemby, but he's better than Jokic is.

[51:06] there's a floor to Wemby's game because of the defense, right? He can't really have a bad game ever. He's such a defensive presence. So when his offense is clicking, it's like, well, [51:18] He might, he's a very good chance if he stays healthy. Right, if he hits a couple threes and a couple turnarounds and gets some fouls. That's all it takes. But there's a good chance he winds up the greatest player of all time. But health is going to be a big thing just because we've never seen a guy this size before.

Right? And the other thing about Jokic, Bill, is... [51:36] You're down two possessions in the playoffs. Your season's on the line. There's like two minutes left. [51:42] Okay, overcome it. [51:43] Right. And Jamal Murray was taken out of the series, who's normally a very clutch player because you have a six foot eight. [51:49] wing defensive specialist who's doing an unbelievable job on him. So now you have Gobert, who's also a great defensive player on Jokic, and it's like, [52:00] Okay, Jokic, do it though. It's two possessions. Can you make up two possessions in two minutes?

We've seen this from super great players throughout history. And Rich and I play a game nowadays on the show. [52:12] where it's like, [52:14] Do you [52:15] Does this player need to win or does he love the game? [52:19] So for example, or love to play, need to win, love to play. For example, the player that best epitomizes needing to win and loving to play on the highest level possible is Magic Johnson. That dude, like Larry Bird needed to win more than he loved to play. Same thing with Michael Jordan, right?

There are other guys who love to play more than they need to win. For example, Kevin Durant, right? Clearly loves to play. Does he need to win? It doesn't seem that way, right?