Talking Dateline: Secrets Unmasked

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[00:34] He wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. [00:37] He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. [00:45] That's pretty much all he talks about. [00:46] In a good way. [00:48] What's in your wallet? [00:50] Terms apply. See com slash BankGuy. Capital One A. Member FDIC. [01:01] Hey everyone, this is Andrea Canning and we are talking Dateline and today we are joined by the legendary Keith Morrison and his legendary producer, Tim Eulinger. They are here to discuss their Dateline episode, Secrets Unmasked.

This episode is about the murder of Regina Hicks, a 25-year-old Ohio woman who disappeared on the way to pick up her son from her estranged [01:27] Paul. Days later, Regina's car was found submerged in a pond with her body in the passenger seat. What followed was an investigation spanning two decades, a bizarre arson scheme and a reluctant witness. If you haven't seen the episode yet, you can stream it now on Peacock or listen in the Dateline podcast feed, then come right back here. Later, we will have an extra clip from Steve Gates, the witness who kept his silence for nearly 25 years, reflecting on how he feels about Paul

[01:57] answer some of your amazing questions from social media. Okay, let's talk Dateline. Hey, Keith and Tim. Hi, how are you, Andrea? Nice to see you. It's always nice to see you guys since you're out there in California, Southern California, so I don't get to see you very often. It's great to see you. [02:15] So let's dive right into this episode. The first thing that I thought of as I was watching was – [02:22] I'm always struck by, you know, just the opening lines, right? And in the body of the episode.

And in this one, you know, we're talking about Ohio. What is it? Willard. [02:33] Ohio. And I was an anchor in Ohio, so I know those little towns. It's not super little, but it's not huge either. And it always strikes me. [02:44] how these most of our datelines happen in these small towns you know they don't happen in the big city in fact yeah i've done i think one dateline in new york city and i've done a lot of datelines so i mean how what's your take on that that these crazy things happen in small town america like in this episode it's because it is a small town i mean there's even a genre called murder in a small [03:14] And if you if you if you look at all the famous crime novels, most of them occur in small towns.

I hear that Christie loved those country mansions, didn't she? And there's a reason because. [03:28] It's a little place where this sort of crime doesn't normally occur. You expect it to happen in a big, scary city and not in a sweet, bucolic little place where everybody knows everybody else. Because it does, we're really interested in it. One of the things about the small towns is that because they are small towns, relationships are tighter. More people, like everybody knows everybody. [03:58] People are tighter. There's more emotion. That's a big part of it.

Yeah, I agree with you. And Keith, you know where I am from, Blue Mountain in Canada, which is on Georgian Bay. It's part of Lake Huron, the Great Lakes. And so this was, you know, as I'm watching the opening of this episode, I'm thinking to myself, you know, I finally know sort of what it feels like, you know, to have a murder happen in a small town like that and for it to affect you because [04:28] that was a diabolical murder that we featured on Dateline in November. And it was the, um, the, the fire captain who had murdered his wife, Ashley.

And it, it happened three miles from my house where I grew up. So it's a new perspective for me. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, along the lines of what we've been talking about, the Regina's uncle, uh, [04:51] Regina, the victim in this story, her uncle said something that struck me, and he said there's no way to explain it until you experience it yourself. And you don't have any idea really what these people are feeling when someone they love has been murdered. Right. Even though this case occurred 24, 25 years ago now, the scars are stumbling.

[05:14] They're not healed. The people are still hurting. There's still emotion. You can see it. Yeah. And those things never heal. And as they say, the ripples go out a long way, but they also last for generations. So people, anybody, even somebody who was a small child who you'd think would grow up and forget all about it, they don't forget about it. It informs everything in their lives. [05:37] Regina's cousin said, you know, when the verdict came in guilty, she could feel it in her toes. [05:43] When she told me that, I was like, oh, my God.

She still – I saw her that day. I was there for the verdict. And I saw her that day, and the tears just kept coming, and she just couldn't believe that finally – [05:57] Finally. But the emotion, it's still right on the surface. You really brought to life Regina in this episode, especially with the challenges that we have sometimes telling these stories when they're so old, because we don't have video and all the crystal clear pictures that we have now. It's more of a challenge. So it's the people. It was the people that you interviewed who were the ones who did such a good job of thinking.

[06:22] bringing into focus regina bringing her to life i will i will not deny that for frequently when um when i i'm just speaking for myself launch into a story one of the kind of stories we do i'll get a sense of oh no not again we have to invade somebody's grief and we're going to do this story about the worst thing that ever happened to somebody yeah and in the end [06:45] The thing that makes me glad we tell the stories are because you get to know the person at the heart of it, which is generally the true.

And in a way, in a strange way, it's like you are celebrating a person who who died a long time ago. I agree. I agree. And and also, Keith, they look like they wanted to be there. [07:07] talking about Regina. You could feel it. Yeah, they did. Regina's brother, for instance, Chuck Rowe. I hit it off with, [07:14] Regina's brother, Chuck, because he was wearing a Marine cap. United States Marines was a snowy day. We love the Marines. We love the Marines. Yes, I know you do. So I met Chuck.

He's wearing this hat. And I introduced myself. [07:28] And I said, you're a Marine, really? And then I asked, like, you know, where'd you serve? And he goes, well, one of my foreign deployments was in Somalia. [07:35] It's like Somalia. [07:36] 1992 Somalia. And I said, were you there on the first day? First wave? Oh, yeah. Yeah. All the TV cameras were in my face. [07:45] I said, oh, my God, that was me. I was there on the beach. It's funny how paths cross, isn't it? So we hit it off.

[07:54] But it was very funny. Anyway, that family is great. [07:57] Really very, very nice people. Nice. The crime, it starts out with, you know, she goes missing. Of course, Regina, they find her car, right? [08:08] in the water and the cause of death is ruled as a drowning. [08:14] manner of death, however, is pending. And I'm thinking to myself, this poor woman is in the passenger seat. How so... [08:23] How do you figure that? And she's got marks on her. How do you figure that she that this is anything other than a homicide?

I don't I didn't really get that. It was a puzzlement to a lot of people, I think. Yeah. Yeah. The coroner may well have felt that he would be sticking his neck out a little too far if he went to declaring that it was a homicide. Right. How else does she get in there, though? [08:53] slide into the passenger seat when things are least remotely possible that, you know, good many in the law enforcement community quite probably quite rightly are saying, well, we can't quite go with that yet. It's interesting, though, because we were talking about the case in Blue Mountain with Ashley, with her husband, who was the fire captain and her body.

So he was he had pushed the car into the ditch. [09:17] during a snowstorm to make it look like she had had a car accident. But there she is in the passenger side. [09:25] Again, it's another story where the victim is in the passenger side. So how did she drive herself into the ditch? [09:32] Right. It didn't add up. Exactly. Yeah. And then later on, of course, much, much later on, years and years and years later on, that manner of desk has changed to one that I think everybody, you know, was able to sign on to.

And that made all the difference. [09:49] I don't want to say this in the wrong way, when they changed that to homicide. I was so glad for her family. [09:55] To me, that was movement. That was like acknowledging we believe Regina was murdered and now it's official. Sadly, it came after Regina's mother was dead and she had campaigned for that for years and years, but didn't survive to see it. [10:11] Which is a real shame. And her mom, Regina's mom, had put up billboards. [10:17] to keep the case alive. And I covered the, the Crystal Rogers case last year, where that became a real focal point of this, where these billboards of, you know, where, where is Crystal?

And they believed also that they knew, um, [10:32] who had killed her, even though she'd never been found. I think the billboards, I think they're so effective because it not only does it show how much the family cares, right, that they're not giving up, but it's in your face. Face, right. Every day, if you live in these areas where these billboards are, like you cannot ignore it. And in the Crystal Rogers case, they put up a billboard right next to the sheriff's department. It cannot be overstated how important it is for families in a cold case to keep at it.

[11:01] to keep pushing. And it helps the police, too, because, you know, they may seem annoyed, but the fact is they need to have cover sometimes to continue an investigation that otherwise they wouldn't be able to afford. But if somebody is really ramping up for it all the time, then their bosses are going to say, yes, spend the money. And so things get done. When we come back, we will have an extra clip from Steve Gates, the witness who kept his silence for nearly 25 years. [11:31] you [11:34] A strange thing happens when you put off finishing your college degree.

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You know, from the beginning of the show where I see somebody with this long hair and they've got glasses on and then there's a fire. I'm like, where is this going? Yeah, well, exactly. It's what anybody looking at the story would think. You guys had me hooked. It was the weirdest darn thing, you know? [13:22] Thank you. [13:22] Maybe I shouldn't even give it any publicity, but like where you can you can get these wearable masks. I'm not sure they even sell them anymore. That company that was involved in our story, Andrea, is no longer in business.

They were based in the UK and they are no longer. I'm kind of actually glad about that. So that's my face. That's my face. Yeah. You know, it's one thing to have like a Halloween costume or something. [13:52] your ex-girlfriend's face to... [13:56] burned down [13:59] Your house? What? Yeah, it was a stretch. The other thing that was in this, which was the spoof card, to be able to call people. Yes, the spoof card. And it appeared to be coming from a different number altogether. And until they did a real deep dive on that, it looked as if people who were innocent were guilty and vice versa.

The Claremont County, Ohio Sheriff's Department, you know, started investigating this case. And they did a pretty good job. [14:28] And then... [14:30] Using some of their information, this insurance investigator. [14:33] named Zach McCune. He was like the super investigator. And he got to the bottom of this. And every time like he learned something, he couldn't, [14:42] believe the next thing he'd learn you know he was literally he was like in all the things he's done in his career ever he's never seen anything like this could have listened to that guy all day long he was uh yeah he definitely had me at hello i was like okay i'm interested in this person in this story and i always like it when people have specialties you know so he he's saying right out of the gate my specialty is is fire it's arson yeah yeah he's a certified fire investigator

[15:12] second person in the house lighting the fire. [15:17] Do we think that was Paul then or do we not? Do we not know? Or do you know? We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. OK, no. Oh, well, Paul's tall. So you would know, right? If it was Paul. Right. Right. And Paul had an alibi, a perfect alibi. He was at a hotel three hours away. [15:34] The thing about Paul was this, and it's central to the story. He was one of those guys who was always the leader of the pack in a small town.

If he'd gone to the big city, he would have been shot down pretty quickly if he went to work for IBM or something. [15:49] You know, he was a railway man. He knew other people around town. They'd drive around in his cars. He would always pick up a kind of a satellite, somebody who was enthralled with him, who would do whatever he wanted them to do, who would be afraid of them, but wanting to attach to them at the same time. Kind of like Steve. [16:07] There you go. Yeah, sure.

Terry Sweet is another person. [16:11] You know, who went along with Paul. Right. I should say allegedly Terry Sweet. But she died. Right. So she died the very day the insurance inspector was going to talk to her. Talk to her again. And, Andrea, this is funny. This is something we can bring up. I mean, obviously, we attempted to get the death certificate and to see if there was any investigation. But how did she die? [16:32] Apparently, according to the little information out there, is that. [16:37] It was probably alcohol related and it was quote unquote natural causes.

Does that do people think otherwise? [16:45] Well, they're amazing. [16:47] There could be, but nobody is going to talk about it. Yeah. There are some people who believe that coincidences happen and other people who believe coincidences. [16:57] Coincidence is unlikely to ever happen. Law enforcement generally doesn't believe in coincidences. As I always say on this podcast, it seems like an awfully big coincidence that she would – the timing of her death. However, Paul was never – we should say was never charged with Terry Sweet's death, was never arrested. Absolutely not.

No. I mean, Paul was really a charmer. [17:27] over the years. He would choose people who [17:30] would be very pleased to be with such a handsome, virile guy. He would pull them in, and they would do anything for him. You said to Kelly, you said, you were in love, and she said... [17:41] Lust. [17:43] Like dead pen. Yeah. Yeah. Like she was not, she was not happy. She said in our conversation, [17:50] in our interview that she really liked him at first. Like he was really nice. He was, yeah, that he was super charming.

He was fun. He gave the appearance that he was going to be taking care of her, you know, [18:03] Kelly is very upfront about that in the main interview that we did with her. Why was Kelly's face obscured in the police video? [18:11] Because at the time she wasn't ended up not being charged. [18:15] So they didn't want to. When they released that, they didn't want to have. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. And then also the detective. I mean, poor Kelly is there for a child handoff at Kroger and tasers are being pointed at her.

I mean, I can't even imagine. Then she's in the interview room and the detectives talking about the woman in the fire. She's rather large. And then Kelly's like you hear Kelly say, oh, my God. And I'm not sure. I can't tell if she's talking about her saying she's rather large or the whole situation. [18:45] That interview occurred probably seven to 10 days after the arrest. And the female detective there was starting to realize, I don't know. [18:55] I'm not sure this is the same person either. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. But at first, it was very...

[19:03] There was a lot of feeling that that was Kelly. Well, yeah. I mean, there's a mask and the hair and also nighttime security camera from a house. It's never going to be that crisp and clear. You could have gotten away with something like that, potentially, if you had just maybe not a strong... [19:22] investigator on it. [19:24] And by the way, you know, he wasn't convicted of any serious crime. It was you got misdemeanors and so no jail time. So that made me really actually angry. [19:33] that he got this slap on the wrist.

[19:36] But what happened? [19:37] is first of all the main witness that would have been [19:41] is deceased. They're missing that element. And then we had the pandemic. There were like two or three changes of, of, of judges. And they just, they just, [19:51] Why not to wrap this case up and get him on something? And they did. They got him on misdemeanor. And in the civil case, he ended up supposedly having to pay – [20:01] $400,000, but I don't think he ever paid it. All right. Can we talk about Steve?

[20:08] So Steve, as we mentioned, Steve is, I guess, the old friend who... [20:14] Admitted, finally. [20:15] that he was there that night. He says he didn't see... [20:19] The murder happened, but he went along with Paul to cover it up. [20:25] And it took him a really long time. [20:28] to do the right thing. Yes, it did. And he would say that even years and years later, when Paul was living in a different part of the state altogether, hundreds of miles away, he couldn't go to the police, in his opinion or his view at the time, without Paul finding out immediately.

And somebody in Paul's circle of friends and acquaintances in that little town would, you know, make life very difficult indeed for Steve. He lived in fear that whole time, [20:58] You know, given the sort of personality that he presented to us and the role that he played in that relationship, I can kind of see it. We have an extra clip. [21:07] from your interview with Steve. [21:10] What do you think about him now? I don't think he has any more... [21:17] Minions that are working. [21:18] that will pull any weight for him.

[21:21] I don't think that he has anyone left in his corner. [21:26] I think he's powerless at this point. I don't think he has... [21:31] the reach that he used to have. [21:34] I'm sure he still has connections, but I don't [21:39] I don't think that they would... [21:46] I don't think that they're a danger to me, is connections. [21:51] You don't get that little itch in your back anymore that somebody might do something to you someday? [22:00] No. [22:03] No, I'm... [22:05] I'm not afraid of him anymore. [22:10] Interesting, isn't it?

Once you decide not to be afraid of somebody, [22:14] Does it make you look back and say, Jesus, why wouldn't I have this attitude, you know, [22:20] 20 years earlier, 24 years earlier. [22:24] You just look at the brute in the face and say, F you, I'm going to go tell the cops. [22:29] Right? [22:31] I was young and just... [22:34] I was stupid. I was a young, stupid kid. [22:37] The whole... [22:39] idea of him coming forward. [22:41] And him giving this, you know, according to the jury, very believable evidence.

[22:46] testimony. That solved the case that found justice for Regina's family. But Regina's family are still not very happy with Steve Gates. They feel that he waited way too long. [22:59] They feel that their mother could have had justice in her lifetime. There's still some hard feelings there. I mean, the one thing I'll give Steve is we are dealing – [23:12] with a killer, right? [23:14] Paul is a convicted killer. [23:16] And a skilled manipulator who can make a person feel afraid. [23:31] I think I'd be afraid of Paul, too.

[23:34] I get it. [23:35] I get it and I'm just frankly I'm still surprised that Steve [23:40] came forward to us. [23:42] When he was in court, [23:45] testifying at the, you know, the de neumon of the trial. Um, [23:50] He didn't want any audio recorded. He didn't want any video. And under Ohio law, if the witness requests that, the judge can grant that. [23:58] request and he did. So the fact that he ended up talking to Keith, [24:04] was [24:05] I was kind of surprised. And the reason... [24:09] Andrew, I think he has essentially decided to come forward.

[24:14] made a special trip out to Ohio to talk to him in person with his attorney, Bernie Davis. And, [24:21] I think he wanted the community to know. [24:25] That he suffered with this, but ate away at him for 24 years and... [24:31] that he sorry that he waited so long and, you know, his family, [24:36] And that region has gotten a lot of attention. [24:39] No. [24:39] pushback from that community he still lives on the same farm that he did back in 2001 yeah can you imagine going on with the rest of your life having now gone public finally with that story and the feelings a great many people must have about it is you've still got to go to the grocery store every day you're still going to go and see other people around this small town every day and you know that they're probably whispering behind your back and it's a tough thing to deal with for sure we often

[25:09] through a text or a call? Did you hear, have you heard anything from Steve about the reaction to him? [25:18] doing this interview. [25:19] Not yet. [25:20] No, I've not. No. I think that probably... [25:24] It's a good thing that he's done, and I think it might be recognized. [25:28] I hope it is. [25:30] Because, you know, even now... [25:33] You're not afraid of anybody, but you're afraid of how the public might feel about you, I'm sure. [25:39] No, I... [25:39] I personally, the way it came out, [25:42] I think it was a good thing that I think he needed to get some of that out.

And I'm sure a lot of people in that community were watching your Dateline. [25:53] and [25:54] I think the fact that he... [25:56] Keith pushing him, apologized. [26:01] to the family. Keith had to drag it out of him a bit, but he... [26:05] I said, I'm sorry I didn't come forward earlier. [26:09] Right. You could tell he meant it. Yeah. Yeah. Apologies go a long way. I think they're big if they're sincere. You know, and I have to say, given the ride that we went on in this story and all the things that, you know, Paul was accused of doing.

[26:26] It was a very satisfying arrest. [26:29] and verdict to see that, you know, to see that car on the video, you know, get pulled over and the jury. Yeah. Three hours. That's three hours. Three hours is like that. I swear it is the magic number for juries with quick verdicts for guilty. [26:46] Two hours plus lunch. Yeah, exactly. They were like, yeah, you're done. You're done, Paul. And up next, we have questions from our loyal viewers and listeners on social media that we are going to answer. Okay. [27:06] Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' safest new car brand.

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I think I missed that. Do you know exactly how Regina died? Well, I guess we don't really know exactly how she died because nobody saw it except the killer. The. [30:09] You know, the friend who eventually told the story of what he saw that evening didn't see that part of the activity. What he saw was when he walked back to the car, he saw her crumpled in the passenger seat. And Paul told him she's dead. Although at that point, she actually wasn't dead. But clearly he had done something to her and it wasn't clear exactly what.

Didn't they say that she had marks? [30:34] On her body? I mean, I don't know if that's related to her... [30:38] Right. For death or not. Which could, marks on her body, which could have meant, you know, any number of possibilities, I think. And strangulation was a possibility, I think, wasn't it, Tim? [30:49] And... [30:49] Blunt force. It seems a more likely thing is that some type of blow to the head was the possible possibility. [30:57] thing that made her unconscious. But [31:00] The cause of death was actually drowning. They know that from water being ingested.

[31:07] Yeah. Yeah. So they believe, though, that some things happen before. [31:12] the drowning. Yes, he knocked her out and then he put it in the passenger seat of the car and then he drove the car into the pond. That's how it worked. So the observer, the witness, saw the car going over a hill and into the pond. [31:23] But didn't see what happened to her beforehand. OK, so this this one is at Jill Hughes from Facebook. And she's talking about Steve, the man who made the deal and testified. She says, what a jackass.

He should do jail time as well, because if you don't tell about a crime, you are complicit. Well, there's I mean, there's an argument that could have been made. All right. But in the end, they really needed to solve that crime. And and Steve was a way they could solve it. [31:53] arrangement with them that [31:55] He didn't go to jail. [31:58] And [31:59] He was a lucky man in that sense. And I do think Andrea and Keith [32:03] One of the things that everybody involved with the prosecution of this case feels is that if Steve Gates did not come forward, [32:12] This family would not have had justice.

No, we would have been on year 25 or 26. Yeah. If he had not come forward, this case wouldn't have been officially solved. They didn't really have justice. [32:23] anything more than him. Yes, exactly. And... [32:27] The other case is, I mean, remember, he got misdemeanor charges. He never did any jail time. So this would have been a guy watering around scot-free for any number of bad acts. We see this a lot. It's a double-edged sword, right? I mean, you need them, but. Yep. [32:45] At the same time, you know, maybe they could have done things differently, you know, from the beginning.

It's hard. Do you think Steve would have come forward without the immunity deal? [32:55] Andrew and Keith, I think any defense attorney would not have let their client speak to police without some type of deal for immunity before they talk because – [33:07] His client, Steve, was, you know, at some risk for some type of chart, including, you know, obstruction of justice, perhaps. So I don't think there was any way he was going to be talking without a deal. And that's very normal. Robin Stevens West says, once you know it's a mask, you can tell.

Hindsight is 20-20. You look at the security, the surveillance video. [33:34] And it kind of looks bizarre. But then, you know, when when you actually have the luxury of. [33:40] knowing who maybe this was, [33:42] Does it change it for you when you watch that video? It never looked real to me. And I was a little surprised, frankly, that investigators could have looked at it in the first place and thought, yeah, that's Kelly. That's the ex-girlfriend, not the current girlfriend. It didn't make sense to me, but... [34:02] Apparently it worked for a while.

Thank you both. [34:05] for joining us and giving us all your insights. Thank you. Thank you, Andrea. It's been a delight. [34:11] It's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure. Well, that is it for Talking Dateline this week. And thank you all for listening. Remember, if you have any questions about our stories, you can DM us your audio or video on our socials at Dateline NBC or leave us a voicemail at 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured right here. [34:41] original podcast series, Five Miles from Home, the story of the murder of a high school track star in a small desert town.

All six episodes are available now, or you can subscribe to Dateline Premium to binge the entire series ad-free. We'll see you Friday for an all-new Dateline on NBC. [35:02] Thank you. [35:04] Looking to scale your outcomes beyond search and social? Realize is Taboola's AI-powered performance platform, driving incremental growth by engaging high-intent users across a global network of 600 million daily active users on premium websites. Reach and convert your audience on premium websites and placements where your customers actually spend their time. For more information and to create your account today, go to

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