Messi Takes England Out of the World Cup, Plus Preparing for Christopher Nolan’s 'The Odyssey' With Ian Wright, Anthony Dabbundo, and Sean Fennessey

[00:00] This episode is brought to you by State Farm. [00:03] Countless hours in the gym, a thousand shots before tip-off, day after day on the same court. [00:09] with the State Farm stanchion right there. [00:12] That's right. The best players... [00:14] put in the work. And State Farm is the same way with insurance experts, [00:18] who put in the work as well. Whether you get a digital quote, [00:21] or reach out to a local agent. [00:23] State Farm is there to get to know you. [00:25] and help you select the right coverage that fits your life, [00:29] and your budget.

[00:30] Putting the work is what separates the good players from the great, and that's why you want State Farm. [00:34] On your team. [00:36] So get the coverage that's right for you. [00:38] Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary. [00:44] by state. [00:46]. [00:52] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by com. [00:56] and is hosted today by Chris Ryan. What's up? [00:58] I am filling in for Bill while he is away. And today on the podcast, we're talking the two things that matter most in the world to me.

[01:08] The World Cup. [01:09] And the Odyssey for the World Cup. [01:11] I talked to Ian Wright, former Arsenal legend, current UK media pundit for Stick to Football and our own podcast, Crossways, over here at The Ringer. [01:23] podcast network. Ian is a legend of the English game and was nice enough to join me to talk about England's loss to Argentina in that incredibly thrilling semifinal. We talked a little bit about Spain and France and the final that's coming up on Sunday between Spain and Argentina, but I talked more in depth about the final with Anthony Dibundo, who joined me after Ian.

And then I wrapped things up with a long chat with Sean Fennessey about the Odyssey. There's [01:53] conversation. But since that is sort of the movie event of the year, [01:58] I thought, what better time to talk about it and who better to talk about it with than the co-host of The Big Picture? [02:04] You can also listen to me on The Watch on Mondays and Thursdays. [02:09] And I'm going to be doing one more podcast with Adam Friedland on the beautiful pod on Friday. We're going to be talking about the tournament as a whole and previewing Sunday's action.

Bill will be back on Sunday. I think Anthony Dabundo and I are going to join him after the World Cup final. [02:25] So we'll be coming to you probably live after that match. I hope everybody has a great weekend, enjoys the Odyssey, enjoys the World Cup final. Let's get into the show. [02:35] This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by PayPal. [02:38] You know a clutch move when you see one? A no-look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steal. Well, imagine if your wallet [02:44] could pull off moves like that.

[02:46] That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now, you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony, Allbirds, and Viator. [02:54] Save offers before you check out. [02:55] earn unlimited rewards. Plus, you can add those rewards on top of credit card points, [03:01] Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. [03:04] Save those offers, start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See com/rewards terms, credit card points subject to issuers, [03:15] terms and conditions. [03:17] all right guys this is a really huge honor for me i'm joined by [03:47] Ian Wright, my friend Ian Wright, one of the greatest strikers to ever play English football.

[03:53] Capped over 30 times for England. [03:55] An Arsenal legend. [03:57] And now a pundit. You can see him and hear him on sick to football. [04:01] with Gary Neville, Jamie Carragher, Roy Keane, Jill Scott. You can hear him with Steph Hewton on Crossways here at Ringer Spotify. He's also one of the best dudes out there. And thank you so much for taking time on what must be a heartbreaking late afternoon for you in New York. I guess I'll start here. [04:19] Tuchel tries to turn Atlanta into Azteca. [04:24] Right.

And and he he brings on Kansa. He brings on I. Riley. He brings on Byrne. He takes off Gordon Rice, Reese James, Rice and Reese James looked a little banged up. [04:34] And then... [04:36] Was it the right strategy but the wrong time? Or how did you feel about this decision of his to defend that lead, that one goal lead? [04:44] It was when you considered it to call somebody, Chris, that we brought in for his bravery. [04:51] And we've given him a lot of applaud. It's on the fact that he's left a lot of people at home that people wanted to see in this squad that maybe now...

[04:59] In this game, in a game where you looked at us and we looked like we were struggling, we were defending deep, couldn't get out, we didn't have no ball players to get us out and maybe get to the... [05:06] to the wings where we could have hurt Argentina. [05:09] I think to see us, once we scored the goal, to only have 12% possession after that, until I think Latino, Lattaro Martinez scored, says that it was a kind of a negative play from my point of view, from what I saw.

And I think that, you know, Chris, you have to go back to, I'll go back to our final in the Euros at Wembley against Italy. You know, we're in the game, you know, Luke Shaw, you know, then we start defending. [05:39] You know, the same with, you know, even the Spain final. [05:43] in the game you know we're doing well spain come then we start defending and it's happened again today um i thought we started the game very well today chris um we kind of went a man to man we really denied messy space we had anderson in and around him jude was in and around him and i think that it was a very brave thing to do and i quite liked it [06:05] Because it was working.

[06:07] But Chris, you know, I was still disappointed that we weren't getting out and getting to the width, which Argentina are very narrow with the way they play. They want to play it through the middle. And this is why it was such a. [06:21] Unbelievable move from Messi at the end to completely... [06:25] like destroy us because they're normally very narrow trying to play through the middle with the one twos. And I thought that there's spaces on the flanks and that's how we scored. Jude made the run. We got out the flank.

The ball came in and bam, that was it. But when you consider that in a semi-final, we only had seven touches in the opposing box, it says that [06:43] That's not enough. And 12% after you score a goal, possession is nowhere near enough to win a semi-final, but [06:50] From their point of view, even though I was saying they started with their... [06:53] I knew what they were going to do with Jude and with the guys. They're going to try and intimidate Chris. They're going to do this stuff, which you expect them to do.

[07:01] But when they started playing, especially when they went to go down, Chris... [07:05] This is a team that's... [07:07] It's scary. [07:08] It's a scary team to play because they can play football. [07:12] And they're very dogged, my friend. Very dogged. My old colleague, Zach Cram, he threw this stat up on Twitter on X. Here are Argentina's winners in the knockout rounds. Cape Verde, 111th minute. Egypt, 92nd minute. Switzerland, 112th minute. England, 92nd minute. You're not going to beat Argentina 1-0. You know? No. No. [07:34] And that's the thing, Chris.

[07:35] And this is why when you mentioned about Tukul and the guys he brought on, he seemed like he was bringing guys on, [07:41] to shore up a game, [07:43] with a team that you're giving... [07:45] the impetus to come at you and they've got, [07:48] Arguably the greatest player that's ever lived. Who then realized, listen, I'm not getting anything through the middle of this team. So let me just ease myself out to the right hand side. [07:57] And, you know, we didn't like whether it was Nico O'Reilly, whoever it was on that side, Jude coming across.

[08:04] Whoever it was, no one got tight to... [08:07] So you can actually make people say, okay, Messi's marked. Even though they might give it to Messi when he's tight. [08:15] He's not going to have the time what we gave him [08:18] to then get those crosses is because you look at it, McAllister should have scored a couple, should have scored a couple. And in the end, it was still, it was Latara Martinez who did score. [08:28] But you can't just leave Messi on that side just because he brought five players on and not have a game plan that, OK, Messi is now not going through the middle.

He's stopped trying to play his one-twos into the middle, play around people and get into the box that way. He's come out to the right-hand side to put crosses in. [08:48] And they should have scored with two more. And I'm very surprised that we didn't see that. [08:53] And again, I'm very surprised that we went so defensive so quickly. [08:58] And then you look at somebody as well, Chris, like a [09:01] Maybe a Kobe Mainu. You need, I don't, I'm not going to say we should be taking off in this.

I'm just like spitballing. Yeah, I know. I was going to ask you this. [09:08] Yeah, I was going to say, you need somebody who's comfortable on the ball, whether that's Kobe, whoever it's going to be. That's it. And then maybe... [09:15] Maybe, you know, the way Harry was playing, you look at Harry... [09:18] Harry wasn't really giving us anything in the game. And I say with all due respect, he's our greatest goal scorer. He's our greatest goal scorer in our history. [09:26] But in the game and the last game, we didn't get a lot from him.

So if we can play a different... [09:31] strategy. Maybe we could have [09:34] Hit the ball long. [09:35] Got people around someone like Ivan Toney. [09:38] with Rashford next to him with the pace, Chris, and then at least we're giving the defenders... [09:44] some breathing space to get their breath back and go again. But we just kept, it just kept coming back. And I thought that, um, [09:51] His strategy to bring on the defensive guys in the 5-4-1, [09:56] Obviously it's not going to work It's not going to work against the Argentina 1-0 down World Cup [10:01] world champions who [10:03] I'm trying to win another one.

It's not going to work, man. The Messi thing has been... [10:09] one of the magical storylines of this entire tournament. [10:12] And watching him out there, you're just watching this supercomputer that [10:16] Can't get knocked over. [10:18] And I felt like at some point in this match, he was like, I'm not going to score. [10:22] So what I'm going to do is have either the assist or the hockey assist for what's going to happen. Like he knew... [10:28] that they were dedicated to the idea this guy is not going to beat us.

And he was like, I'm still going to beat you. It's just not going to be with a goal. [10:35] Chris, this is just the game intelligence for... [10:38] The greatest player, for me, I'm probably, you know, he looks like he's getting to two World Cups. He could have two World Cups on the spin. Probably in respect of achievement, that will go down as the greatest achievement by any player. [10:49] for him to have two out of all the so-called goats [10:53] But for him to be so magnanimous [10:56] in the way he plays with this team.

And you can see, you can see it, Chris. Even if someone fouls him, [11:02] and they stand around him too long. People just come from everywhere, from the Argentinian team. Don't you dare stand next to him like that. Don't you dare disrespect him. The protection he's got, [11:12] But the respect he has for that team as well, where he can say, right, I am going to step out. [11:18] I'm not going to go involved, get involved in there. I'm going to step out to this right-hand side. Now, continually get the ball to Messi.

And this is where we made a massive mistake. We should have seen it. [11:28] It's game intelligence from his point of view. I'm going to stay out here. [11:31] And if someone comes with me, okay, then I might have to take them on. If they don't, [11:36] Then I'll just keep crossing into that area. And let's face it, you talk about Messi at 39, my friend. [11:41] Still getting the ball, especially for the winning goal. [11:45] Getting on the outside of our players at 39, crossing with his weaker foot, pinpoint the Tara Martinez scores.

You know, just somebody that knows, is great enough to know that I can cause my problems. [12:00] out here and is magnanimous enough to give somebody else the [12:04] the credit in respects of winning the game for them. So, you know what I mean? I just, I'm disappointed with the manner in which we lost. Yeah. You know, I'm not saying that we had the most difficult, [12:14] run to the semi-final. We didn't. But I think that... [12:19] When you look at our history and we get to these latter stages, I think the World Cup in Qatar, when we lost to France, Harry missed that penalty.

[12:27] And we lost. We played a much better game than this. I didn't mind going out like that because... [12:32] We went through, he missed the penalty. France went through and they beat us. [12:36] But for us to go out like we did today, hanging on, [12:40] was a hard one to take. Yeah, I mean, so Tuchel after the game, pretty characteristic for him. He's, he's pretty defensive. He's proud of the guys but said this was not, it's not a structure problem. It was not a structure problem. We played maybe our best game, no regrets.

Obviously, he's seen things from a different angle and from a different perspective. [13:00] And only he can answer why Sokka wasn't out there. And only he can answer why Eze wasn't out there. Chris. Yeah, go ahead. Chris, sorry to interrupt you. Sorry, no. Keep going, Chris. I'll ask. No, no. I mean, look. No, you know what, Chris? When you listen to that, when you watch the game, [13:18] And again, it's like a... [13:21] is something that has happened with us before. [13:24] You know, the way we kind of go into our shell when we're winning, when we should be actually going to try and beat Argentina.

[13:31] And for him to say he's got no regrets, he's happy the way to play, it wasn't a structure problem. It was a structure problem, if you ask me, because we couldn't get out. So if the structure was to bring on the big guys and just defend and then kick it out and let them come back in, if that was a structural game he was playing, [13:51] then it still didn't work. But if the structure was to get on the ball and play out, [13:56] with nobody up front, [13:58] I don't know...

[13:59] That don't make sense. [14:01] You know what I mean? It doesn't make sense that that works because there's not an England fan who's... [14:06] It's out there, Chris, that can say they were comfortable. [14:09] with the way we played once we scored. Not one, you won't find one. [14:13] You know what I mean? What we're trying to do, we're going to try and do a Mexico City with 10 men, which was an unbelievable feat. But we're talking about Mexico. Yeah. With all due respect, it's not Argentina, the world champions.

And we were able to we were able to keep them off us. [14:27] But at the same time, we're talking about Argentina and the semi-final of the World Cup. We're five minutes away. I know there's the extra time, you know, but we're like five minutes away from 90 minutes and the extra time on top from getting to a World Cup final. [14:41] And we were hanging on for dear life from the time we scored. [14:46] Until the time they scored And then once they scored Like Roy said it [14:50] Gary said it because Gary Neville's been in games with England where he said, this is what happens with us.

[14:56] When I played, when he managed, we dropped back. [15:00] We dropped back and Tuchel's meant to be the manager that's brave. [15:03] We saw him, like I said, at the start of this. He made a brave decision by leaving some very, very talented players back home that may have been able to get on the board and help us out. He had players on the bench with pace. He had a striker up front in Ivan Toni that could have been up top, you know, to occupy a Romero and Ottomendi at the end there.

[15:22] Give them that physical challenge. Get the ball up there. Maybe we could get some fouls. Get the pace of Marcus Rashford up there to maybe get the balls that could, the second balls, then we could play further up in the pitch. [15:34] So it's very difficult to... [15:36] to digest him saying that it wasn't a structural problem and he has no regrets because if that's the case then [15:44] I don't know what we're looking forward to because if I'm going to be totally honest, [15:48] Chris. [15:49] If you look at, like I mentioned, the France in 2022, [15:53] And if you look back at that game, how I went out, I was happy.

And you look at this one, we regressed. [15:58] You know, it's interesting. We're getting to the end of this tournament. [16:04] And we have probably... [16:06] the best team ever, [16:07] is in the final and the best player is in the final. And there are two different ways to have... [16:12] a winning kind of setup for your football in international football, I think. What Argentina does that's so remarkable, and maybe this is just the way it looks on television, I'm sure a lot goes into is the Scaloni's got these guys where it's like, [16:27] It's all in service of Messi.

[16:29] He's got his bodyguards. He's got his runners. [16:32] He's got his guys who have to get on to the end of the ball. [16:35] everything is in service of a star player. And then with Spain... [16:39] As Thierry Henry has said, those guys are playing like that. [16:42] from eight years old on, [16:44] You know, they're coming out of club systems that produce that kind of one touch football, pass and move football. Then you kind of have England that's a little bit in between, right? [16:54] Tuchel tried to set these guys up, I think, [16:57] Many people have noted that there are similarities between the way he set them up and maybe the way Arteta plays Arsenal.

It was about... [17:04] control, it was about athleticism, it was about physicality. [17:08] He left some really, really creative players behind. [17:12] Adam Morton, Trent Alexander-Arnold, Phil Foden, Cole Palmer. [17:16] Gibbs White. Gibbs White. [17:18] Did this team almost need to be built more around Jude? You know, I mean, Jude, obviously he and Tuchel have this kind of contentious relationship, but, [17:26] In some ways, when I watched it, it was like Jude was a little bit absent in the first part of the game. And he tried to come on. I think his head went a little bit at certain times.

He got into it with Messi. That's going to be a meme forever. But if you're looking for a way forward, is it we have to build something that is entirely about Jude here? Well, listen, Chris, you're saying it there yourself. And the answer is there for everyone to see. Listen, we see it with Messi. If you've got a player... [17:53] with that capability, and I'm not saying that Jude Bellingham is messy by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm saying Jude Bellingham has something. [18:02] He's got some star quality. He's got the ability

[18:05] to have moments in games [18:07] depending on [18:09] How is service? [18:11] You know, if we can get the ball wide, because it was Jude that made the run forward for the ball to go forward. [18:17] For the ball to come across into Morgan, or just to cross into, and he called into Scott, it was Jude. [18:23] Absolutely, we should be looking to say, listen, this is the main guy and we want the main guy up there. We want to get him the ball as often as we can. We want to get the ball into him as often as we can.

And we should start. [18:37] We should start maybe playing games. [18:40] through Jude, playing towards Jude. Everything should be [18:44] You know, like how Messi is, everything's service, service dude. So then he can then service everybody's because we've seen in the games and we're not saying that there have been unbelievable games and unbelievable opposition. But we've seen in those games that he's capable against anybody. [19:01] of [19:02] grabbing a game by the scruff of his neck and running with it, just like Messi did today. [19:07] just grabbing the game and just through his raw ability and, and, and just greatness, just be able to, to win a game for your country.

And I think that we now have to start thinking about that because you're looking at Harry. I think, um, [19:20] I think that Harry would, again, come in deep. [19:24] You know what I mean? He's coming into an area where [19:27] You know, we're getting balls in the box and we're, you know, he's not in there. Yeah. We know that he's capable of dropping deep and then hitting people who are long, but we didn't have the people long. [19:37] So if that's the case, if you haven't got the wingers for when Harry drops deep, [19:42] And then Jude may be filling into Ari's space.

And if Ari's dropping deep and he hasn't got Gordon, he hasn't got Rashford to hit, which we didn't have in the end. [19:51] then you may as well take Harry off. [19:53] take Harry off, you keep Jude on, you put Ivan Tony up top, you bring Marcus on, [19:58] And then you start to get the ball into a situation where, okay, let's get it up top there. Let's go and play up there. And then we'll go from there. That would have been a better, for me, a better ploy. Can we get maybe Kobe Maney one?

[20:09] Maybe he could have maybe taken Anderson off, even though he's had a great World Cup for me behind Jude. [20:15] Maybe he could have taken him off, got Kobe on, who can play. [20:18] If we could have got the ball down and played, we could then get the ball out to Jude, get the ball into Tony, get the ball in and around Rashford to sprint. We could have got out of our half at least. We couldn't get out of our half. [20:31] So at some stage now, especially the players that you've mentioned there, with Trent, you know, with Morgan Gibbs, with Cole Palmer, with Foden, real ball players.

[20:40] You've got to start thinking about these guys, maybe some of the guys who, [20:44] He can serve his food. Yeah. [20:47] You know, obviously Harry's still got a part to play. Don't get me wrong. He still have a part to play, but not the part he's playing at the moment. And especially if you're going to take the wingers off and Harry's dropping deep, he hasn't got no one to hit. Right. So. Yeah, I mean, it's tough because I could see different. [21:07] Little clusters of different clubs being... [21:12] basically modeled or emulated by the England national team.

So the way that Kane was playing is probably not altogether different than the way he plays at Bayern, where he's able to trade on and off with all these runners. They obviously, the German-style football is so fast, and it's up and down basketball. [21:34] And then there's a degree to which there was some very Arsenal-esque, like, we're going to keep it in control. We're going to out-muscle you. We're going to have midfielders who are pushing into the box. I don't know what the answer is, obviously. But I know that two years ago, Real Madrid looked like one of the best teams in the world with Jude Bellingham playing essentially as off the striker, but being the primary goal scorer.

And I don't think it's a bad model for them to emulate going forward. [22:04] I could probably service that. [22:06] When you were watching the beginning of this match and you see how hot it's getting, how early it is, you know, and, you know, the ref is getting surrounded. Argentina is obviously trying to find the line and they were walking right up to it and they're saying, what's a yellow? What's a yellow? And there was one point I think the announcer said, I think every Argentinian player has been warned now.

[22:31] What's that like out there when it's one of those games where it's like, we're going to find out how hot it can get out here? [22:37] Well, that's when you're hoping that the referee who knows, because we all know. [22:41] um what kind of game argentina would have wanted they would have tried to intimidate right from the start you know people are talking about this is one of messi's favorite referees he uses him in the mls and his wins i don't know but the thing is is that you know that they're going to do you saw what they've done to jude first the suit the first opportunity [23:00] You know, you saw what they've done to Anderson.

[23:02] You saw everything that they were doing. I think Simeone was only playing simply to try and rile somebody up, you know, because I couldn't understand... [23:10] why Simeone was playing. Technically, I didn't think he was good enough to be playing in this team, the way this team were playing. And I think we saw that in the first half and why he got taken off in the end. As Pickford was targeting him with long kicks. They were just running right at Simeone. Absolutely, yeah. [23:23] Absolutely. But at the same time, you know, [23:26] Again, they do that probably to test you.

Like you're saying there, Chris, and you're right. They're saying, how far can we go? Because if we could keep doing this, and I still haven't been booked yet, still haven't been booked yet. [23:39] Then you know I mean they're going to upset people I think that. [23:42] kind of like [23:44] kind of put, kind of got Jude off his game for a bit. He kind of disappeared in the game for a little bit. And I think that, [23:50] You could see people talking to him, people in his face and that, and he was answering, you know, I mean, it was, and we weren't getting the ball to him as often as we could.

And anytime he did get the ball, he made sure that you watched them. There's two or three of them coming to try and tackle him and tackle him really hard. [24:04] So, you know, it was always going to be a tough game like that from Argentina's point of view. And they play it well. They play it brilliantly. [24:11] But what I will give them, the credit I will give them, and it's a team and a country that I've got a lot of love for, but at the same time, [24:20] They are excellent footballers.

[24:22] And they know their job. Their job is [24:25] to make sure that we do everything [24:27] to get Messi the ball and surround and protect him in every way we can. [24:33] That's what you're seeing with this Argentina side, because after a while they realised that, [24:38] We actually don't need to wind these up, man. I think that, you know what I mean? They're not creating enough. I think we had like, it was seven touches in the box in the game. Something like that was crazy. I think Argentina had 27, 28 or something.

So after a while, Argentina didn't need their shithousery, whatever it was. They didn't need to do it. They just needed to play. And once they went a goal down... [25:01] we started to see what the world champions are about. Yeah. Maybe that's more of an indictment than anything is that they were like, Oh, we don't even need to mess with your, don't need our nastiness. Yeah. Didn't need that shit. Oh man. I mean, I, I guess it's very early, but do you think the same shit house reworks on, [25:18] Luminum all and almost and it can they catch that ball can they catch up to those guys you know the thing is is that I think that Argentina depending on how the game is [25:30] the game is flowing and I was playing.

That's just naturally in their DNA for that side of them to come out. I think that because there's obviously, um, [25:39] the history of England. Yeah. But they would play that way against Peru. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's just the kind of thing that is always going to be very frictionless and, you know, against England. I think that against Spain, [25:52] Spain are going to have a lot of the ball [25:55] and are very comfortable with the ball. [25:57] You know, it's going to be a totally different game.

But if there's any opportunity where they can... [26:03] I think someone like [26:05] Lamin-Yamal will probably get some. [26:07] Absolutely, we'll get some because... [26:09] They will target whoever your best player is and try and get you off your game without a shadow of a doubt. You can watch that. I can say for definite right now, [26:18] that Laminya Mar will get some form of [26:21] rough treatment. It just happens. Even though Messi's idol and Messi's got a lot of respect and love for him as well, he's a danger to Argentina and they'll make sure that they'll try and try and stump that out.

Was it strange, I wonder if you've ever had this experience before because this is the first time Messi's ever played England, have you ever found yourself [26:42] on the side of cheering against Messi before. [26:46] Um, no. Yeah. No. It's really strange. It's the same as, um... [26:52] It's the same thing I had with Maradona. [26:54] I don't remember too many times cheering against him, but... [26:58] Today, even like, you know, seeing Messi, when Messi was getting angry some of the times, [27:02] It's the first time I was angry with Messi.

I was thinking, what are you doing? I got angry with Messi some of the times, but... [27:08] Yeah, I think that what we learned today... [27:11] is how great he is and he probably is the greatest ever in respects of what he may go on to achieve. [27:18] I'll always have a soft spot for Maradona simply because I watched him do some amazing things, Chris, but like, [27:25] and what's in Messi for the whole of his career? [27:29] you know, like I did probably with [27:31] Like I watch the most of Maradona's, but watching Messi and the levels that he's continued to reach at 39, he's still doing it.

[27:40] It's special. [27:41] It's something special. We're watching a real genius film. [27:46] of the game and are probably probably the greatest we'll ever see i don't think anyone's going to eclipse what messi's doing right now especially if they go on to win this [27:55] Um, [27:56] you know, and [27:57] I don't know what to say. You know, unfortunately, we couldn't deal with him today. I thought we dealt with him in the first half, but... [28:03] It's going to take a lot to try and [28:06] Cattell someone like Messi When you've got [28:09] the backup [28:11] that he's got in Argentina?

Because they're all excellent players. [28:16] How's this tournament been for you? You've been in New York for the entirety of it, pretty much. You've been broadcasting and podcasting out there. And I don't know if you got into many matches at East Rutherford or has it been mostly studio stuff for you? No, no, no. I haven't gotten into it. I went to a couple of the warm up games at the start of the tournament. I went to France and Iraq, but that was as rained out for a couple of hours and I had to leave.

[28:46] Yeah, I went to see the New York Liberty. [28:49] basketball, women, WNBA. I've been having a good time doing that kind of stuff, really. But I didn't get to see any... [28:57] I didn't get to see any football matches. I was meant to go... [29:00] to the World Cup final. If England got there, it would have been the final that we would have went to, because ITV was just doing it from the studio that we've got here in Brooklyn. And if England got to the final, then we would have went to the stadium.

But it's been brilliant, man. Brooklyn's been great. I've had a great time around here. It's been like, you know, this tournament definitely has some black eyes. There has been some... [29:26] some real shames of, of whether it's refereeing, whether it's everything that has happened with the Iran team or whether it's, you know, like, but, [29:38] as a sporting event and as a moment for people to kind of come together and enjoy sports together. [29:44] It's been pretty heartwarming. You know, like I was in Philadelphia over the weekend and my friends have a bar there and they were like, it's unbelievable, man.

Like we would just on a random Wednesday night have 50 Brazilians take over the bar. Honestly, only football does that, Chris. Chris, you know, football and the World Cup, this is why when people are talking about how they need to bring the World Cup every two years or every three years, no. [30:07] It's such a celebration of football around the world. And obviously everything that was happening at the start with America, the visas, the tickets, the money, everything was going on, you know, all the negativity and the discourse that was going on around it.

You know that once the game starts, once the games start, [30:25] It's going to be unbelievable. Once the fans come, once the fans start to mix, obviously once we get down to the nitty gritty like we're semi-finals, [30:33] it gets really deep in respects of like the fans and the rivalry becomes really intense. But in the main, [30:40] You know what I mean? It's just brilliant being in and around Brooklyn with all the fans because we're right close to the Adidas like fan park right there. And everybody's coming there. And it's just been amazing.

[30:49] It's just been a joy. Yeah. Because everybody's just celebrating football and everybody's had their moment. I think that, [30:55] obviously cape verde what cape verde done you know people talking about the expansion and i diluted it no [31:02] What Cape Verde showed in their little time in the limelight was... [31:07] you can have a go at the world's best. [31:10] And you can nearly beat them. [31:12] If you're given the chance. [31:13] And the World Cup can give you that. [31:16] The World Cup gave us that because I think that if we're going to talk about the beautiful moments in the World Cup on the football pitch, then it would be probably Kate Verde's.

[31:24] Gate Verdi's time in this World Cup, which was magnificent and a joy. And it was a credit. They were a credit to the game and this World Cup. [31:34] Yeah, you could really tell when that match ended. [31:38] the way the Argentinian players reacted to the Cape Verde players, which was almost just like, whoa, thank you. Yeah. You know, like, yeah. Yeah. I love Chris. [31:50] Can I just say something, Donald? Just in respect to... I wish that we could have played with the same bravery that Kate Verde played with.

[31:58] if I'm going to totally honest, as an England fan, because they pushed... [32:02] The World Cup champions... [32:04] to the limit. [32:06] It needed everything. It needed all of Messi. [32:09] Even though, yeah, Messi came to the game, came to the floor today as well. But against Cape Verde, they were breaking and still trying to score. [32:17] You know, again, we could take something from them. You have to be brave. [32:21] You have to be braver. And they were brave. And that's, again, World Cup gave them that opportunity. And I love that.

And there's plenty of matches that happened over the course of the knockouts where teams tried to play defensive shells and play for extra time or play for pens or what have you. But we're going to remember Cape Verde. And if that's what it's about, like, I was I was watching that on my phone. My wife, it was like, is this important? And I was like, it would be the greatest upset in the history of sports. [32:51] Easily, easily, because... [32:53] You know, Cape Verde going to beat the world champions. [32:56] You know, after drawing with Spain, you know what I mean?

Again, playing against Spain and giving Spain the kind of game where you're thinking, oh, my gosh. [33:04] They're holding Spain out. [33:06] You saw what Spain done to France, who are the favorites? [33:09] You know, they held them out and then they nearly beat the world champions. [33:13] We'd done that game, and it was easily the best game of the World Cup. Yeah, I was going to ask you if you have a memory you think you're going to take, and if it's Cape Verde or you think it's going to be Azteca or what your favorite moment from this would be.

But it sounds like it's Cape Verde. No, no, no. Obviously, because England done it in the end, and they beat them with the 10 men. It was a real... [33:34] like tin hats kind of like performance from us, you know, dig out, get the boots on and dig in. But Cape Verde's, um, [33:42] Cape Verde's game against Argentina for me is the best game of this World Cup for me so far. All right, man. I'm going to let you go. I just want to get your pick for Sunday. [33:51] You know something I'm probably going to go with...

[33:54] I'm probably going to go with Argentina, simply because I just feel that they just can't be beat. Sometimes you have to free your hand up. If you're 3-0 up. Yeah. Honestly. They just look like they can't be beat. They're never beaten. And if there's going to be a team that can do it because they can hold on to the ball and maybe create something, then it might be Spain, but... [34:16] I can't look further than Argentina, Chris. [34:19] Ian thank you so much for giving me your time tonight man great seeing you hope to see you again soon over in England enjoy some time off after this World Cup [34:28] Thank you very much, Chris.

Thanks for having me on, man. I love you. All right, brother. [34:33] This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. We're in the heart of the World Cup. Look at these little special bottles for Michelob Ultra. Every play matters here. FIFA World Cup 26 for you. [34:45] the stakes, [34:47] are just this side. Michelobocho, the official beer sponsor of... [34:50] The FIFA World Cup 26 is giving you a chance to win $1 million worth of tickets and prizes. Michelob Ultra. [34:57] From the pitch... [34:58] To the poor. [35:00] Superior is worth playing for.

Enter now at com slash superior access slash... [35:07] FIFA World Cup 2-6. [35:10] Michelob Ultra FIFA World Cup 26 Superior Access. No purchase necessary. Open to S. Residence 21 Plus begins on December 1st, 2025. Ends. [35:19] On July 31st, 2026, multiple entry periods, visit com slash com. [35:28] slash FIFA World Cup 26 for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. [35:33] All right, Anthony Dibundo is here, Ringer Gambling Show. Very often, the Ringer's Philly special. Just watched England versus Argentina. I obviously just talked to Ian about that, but Anthony and I are going to talk a little bit about the World Cup final.

Anthony, I want to let you get your takes off, though, about... [35:51] about that England match, which felt like England thought the match was going to last 70 minutes and not 90 minutes and paid for it. What did you think, man? [36:02] I mean, England were doing what they wanted to do. [36:06] in the first hour. They were winning a lot of the duels. They were controlling parts of the game. It descended into chaos for a good amount of it, sure. But once you go up one goal... [36:16] England... [36:17] In the first match of this tournament...

[36:20] had a situation where they took a 3-2 lead and Tuchel said, we are not going to bunker. We are not going to go out playing the old way of England. We're going to go out playing our way. And then he fell right back into it. I thought that when he brought on Rashford and Tony at the end, it was such an interesting last-ditch gambit to win the match, but showed the kind of attacking creativity and, okay, let's try a different option up front with Kane and Tony [36:50] ram kind of and it was sort of absent from earlier in the match i think they were so excited to get that goal it was such a physical game out there that they just they just slammed on the brakes and and like i've said to ian it was just like it felt like he tried to recapture the aztec of magic but that's not mexico out there man that's the reigning world champions and messi with leo messi yeah and if you're gonna if you're gonna mob messi [37:16] He's not going to look to score.

He's going to look to find the open man or the man who can get it to the open man. And they had so many chances in that second half. Um, [37:25] Anthony, what did you think of Spain and France? Because... [37:28] I, on one hand, want to do a little bit of back padding because I picked Spain to win the tournament. [37:36] But I was like, not like that. I didn't think that they were going to decisively walk over the tournament favorites in France, the team that everybody had assumed was like a cut above the competition.

And Spain made them... [37:51] made them look pretty pedestrian and pretty ordinary and ended Duchamp's reign in France. Where are you at with the Spain team? Is this actually been the favorites all along for you? Or what do you think about what you're seeing? [38:05] So the one thing I'll say specifically about this game is that I thought an under-discussed [38:10] topic going in was just how much France had to play in extreme heat the entire tournament. They played all their games outdoors, almost all of them in the Northeast. And the last three were New Jersey, Philly, New York.

[38:23] Boston all 90 plus degree days. Spain, meanwhile, got to enjoy the air conditioning indoors. Their hottest game was in Los Angeles. So they didn't have to do [38:35] all of the [38:36] extreme heat. And I do think that definitely made France look a little leggier, but ultimately it comes down to the same thing that Spain's been doing to beat France the last three years. [38:45] It's like when teams keep the ball and are daring to possess the ball against France, Deschamps has never, ever coordinated a press, never, ever coordinated a counter press, never, [38:56] The sum of the talent has never actually lived up to what they actually are when you watch them play.

[39:02] This team is way more talented than Spain if you go down the list, but [39:07] I think it's kind of a mark on DeChomp because he won the World Cup in 2018 and then said, okay, this is how we do it. [39:13] We're going to change basically nothing in how our strategy is. And the last four international tournaments, you could make the case France was the most talented at all four of them. [39:22] And they didn't win any of them, in large part because when they went up against Spain a couple of times or against Argentina in the first hour of that World Cup final, the team that had better structure, better pressing...

[39:32] Better team play. [39:34] Kind of just walked them. Yeah. And that's exactly what I felt. And look, I went back and forth. A lot of people on this. I always had Spain as my favorite. I never cared that France was running up big scores on vastly inferior teams because of this one matchup, this one thing that Spain had proven and France hadn't proven they could beat. [39:50] So I was happy to ride with Spain. I was happy that, you know, our friends at Fandle made them an underdog and it was a great day.

You know, it's interesting. I think management in this world cup specifically, but in international football in general is such a complicated thing. These guys don't get a ton of time. [40:06] to work with their players. They're under an incredible amount of scrutiny for every single decision that they make. And in a lot of times, a lot of those cases, context is kind of removed. Even some of Tuchel's decisions today, while strategically I didn't agree with what he did when he did it, he had limited options in terms of guys had injuries, guys maybe were on a yellow card.

He loses Kwanzaa in the Mexico match. There's all sorts of mitigating factors for [40:36] he had to do what he did. And I don't know what was wrong with Bakayo Saka. We'll find out like in a couple of hours, like, was he not able to play for, for today or what? But, [40:46] when you look at what Deschamps has done over the last few years, I think, you know, Jonathan Wilson wrote about this in The Guardian. Everybody has always regarded him as somebody who's holding France back. And in this Spain match, you know, Mbappe comes out afterwards and is like, we just, [41:02] we got it wrong.

Like he put two guys in center midfield instead of three and we were outnumbered. He played to a man instead of Kona Kona, or, you know, he could have played Kona and Chua, man. And Rabio. I mean, whatever the, the sort of hindsight that you want to apply to this, they shop just kind of got taken out by Della Fuente. [41:22] And I think you could probably, you know, I don't think Scaloni has like a system that you can really perceive, but he certainly has like... [41:30] that Argentina team playing in a very coordinated fashion and among the [41:35] They share a spirit, you know, and so there's this ineffable thing with with international management.

It's not like Arteta with Arsenal or, you know, Guardiola with Manchester City, where you can be like, oh, obviously he's having them do this. And then they do that. And then they do this. It's a lot of it is vibes. A lot of it is is keeping those guys in a bubble and making sure the noise is turned down in the locker room and trying to get everybody rowing in the same direction and all those cliches. [42:05] matches and one decision or two decisions can really [42:09] can really send things the wrong way.

[42:11] Thank you. [42:11] And, [42:12] To the credit, like Spain probably plays the most like a club team. You can make that a compliment because club teams get the drill together. They have patterns. I mean, the second goal that they scored against France was a textbook definition of here's we're going to pass and we're going to move. We're going to create these triangles. We're going to progress the ball steadily throughout the pitch. We're going to go backwards to go sideways to go forwards to go backwards to go forwards. We're going to play that one big through ball that breaks the lines.

We're going to get the second ball. Then a little give and go. We're in behind. Pedro Poros scores 2-0. And I was out of my seat. [42:42] Holy shit, what a goal, right? And it was nice because you didn't want them to win with just the one when the, you know, it was obviously a penalty, but a little bit cheap in the way that Lamine drew it to start the match. So... [42:53] That kind of combination stuff, you rarely saw that from France in this tournament. As much as they were dominating people, as much as they were playing at an elite level, they were playing at an elite level.

[43:02] You never saw that, but also it's hard to be critical of Deshaun because he's, [43:06] It has worked to such a large extent. I mean, when they're beating everybody so badly, it's like, who do you drop? Do you take out Due? Do you take out Dembele from your team? Do you drop Olisse? I mean, all three of those guys, and Barcala, they've all been great players. [43:19] So it's very hard when you don't really have, quote-unquote, tactics to then invent some on the fly and change it and then play a midfield three.

So they played a midfield three and got outplayed. We would have come on and said, oh, you put the handbrake on. Why did he change it? Let him cook. Yeah, it was working so well. Yeah, I mean, I don't think them losing Saliba... [43:40] Really hurt, I think. You know, he is widely regarded as, if not the best, one of the best centerbacks in the world. [43:47] And, you know, [43:49] It's funny. The vibes in a team and in a camp will be so good until the very last second when they...

[43:57] when the season or the run ends and then everybody's like, the manager was wrong. Yeah. I want to see, I cannot wait to see the post-match quotes about Tuchel. It was the same thing. [44:07] where Pochettino was the savior of S. soccer until he wasn't, and Deschamps, [44:13] was this sort of... [44:16] you know, wizard of French football and finally had learned from his mistakes until he hadn't. [44:22] - Right, and with Tuchel, at least we could see it unfolding in real time. [44:27] And you're like, this is not going to work.

Like the one issue Argentina has had in this tournament is they're actually not good at winning the ball anymore without, without hacking people and, and, [44:36] Committing murder ball. Yeah. [44:38] If you just give them the ball... [44:40] They're pretty good. Lionel Messi went out to the right wing, and he was just standing all alone out there. And they even made a point. Stu Holden made the point on the broadcast where he's like, Lionel Messi's not really involved. He's waiting for his moment. And he's just jogging in and jogging in.

He gets the ball, draws two defenders, plays one simple pass, 1-1. And you're like... [44:56] wait a minute, why are we just letting them have the ball? We should at least make them fight to have the ball. And whereas with France, it's like, [45:04] We can't get the ball off Spain. That's a big problem. [45:08] It feels like with France, they never had that answer. With England, it feels like they at least knew what the answer was, and it was kind of working, and then they stopped doing it. [45:16] in the name of this defensive strategy, when the whole complaint about England pre-tournament was...

[45:22] Are their center backs and defense good enough to hold up? [45:25] Then they said, we're going to double down on our defense. Yeah. It makes sense when you have 10 men in the Azteca. It doesn't make sense when you have 11 men against Argentina. Yeah, and it was strange. It was a strange match, like... [45:38] It must have felt a little bit like Azteca to them because that seemed like almost 70% Argentina. Yeah, that seemed like they were in the Bombonera in Buenos Aires or something like that. That was wild.

Maybe that was just a Fox broadcast because they kept cutting to a wall of Argentina fans and there was not a lot of England fans. It would be Mick Jagger and David Beckham, but they were not showing a huge amount of England support. [46:03] I wonder whether that I don't really know how how that's going to translate to East Rutherford and whether like Argentina fans are going to take over New Jersey and and flood that match. World Cup finals tend to be very, very corporate and very filled out with people who have had that ticket for however long.

And I don't know if they can get that kind of support in East Rutherford. But let's talk a little bit about Sunday to the extent that we're able to since we only just found out who the contestants are going to be in a couple of minutes ago. [46:33] make fights thing where... [46:35] If it's a kicking contest and the refs let Argentina play the way they did today in England up until... [46:44] you know, somehow both center backs are on yellows and multiple players are in massive melees and then like they they they escape.

If they let them kick Spain, you know, I can see this being tight. And then even if Spain is in control of the match, I am now done doubting Argentina, you know, like, yeah, you know, I feel like call it a refereeing FIFA conspiracy to give Messi [47:14] pixie dust that's been sprinkled on this side, I don't know. But they find a way to win. They find a way to come back. They're never dead. They seem to play their best football in the last 20 minutes of the match in an extra time.

It seems like it should be Spain in a cakewalk, but I feel weird saying that. [47:36] The thing, though, is even Spain, when they cakewalk people, is not... [47:42] Like, oh, wow, three, four goals. Look at Spain. You know, like Spain wants to control the game. [47:48] to a level that they are not taking a ton of risk [47:51] and not creating a ton of chances. I mean, Laminia Mal still only has one goal contribution in this tournament. It's kind of a question every time. Pedro Poro chips in. Fabian Ruiz chips in against Belgium.

Mikel Marino comes off the bench. I mean, they're getting more goals from their midfielders and their defenders than they are from their actual attackers at this tournament. So you're like, okay, Spain... [48:10] Ken... [48:11] keep the ball, and can make life really difficult for Argentina to get the ball off them. Like England did today for large stretches. But they can definitely do that. I have more faith, if Spain is playing with a lead, that Spain is not going to do what [48:25] England in today, and they're going to keep keeping the ball, and they're not going to drop and they're going to continue to try to play their brand.

Their brand is so established and so effective that it can work. Argentina is a funny team because they've been so bad with leads too. In this tournament and overall, they play so bad. Going back to the last World Cup, the Copa, they are bad with a lead. So I feel like this is always setting up [48:47] for either Argentina's defending a lead and struggling, or Spain is barely holding on to their lead, [48:53] So either way, it's almost guaranteed to be compelling in the last 20 minutes. Yeah, I mean, with Argentina, all the sort of observations I would have, and I bet any metrics I could look at, every match they end, I'm like, all these guys are dead.

All these guys seem to be crying and praying and sweating. They are all in their 30s. They all have just been running for 110 minutes. [49:20] And yet they show up at the next match and start the clock at zero. And like, they're, they're just incredible. They do not seem to be like carrying the previous match into the new one. Spain has given up one goal in the knockouts. [49:34] one goal to Belgium, otherwise have been an absolute fortress. And the fortress is built on possession, like you said. There was an amazing clip of Thierry Henry on the Fox broadcast after the France match where he broke down that, I think, a passage of play that you were describing earlier.

And he's like, these guys have been playing like this since they were eight. [49:55] And they've been playing together since they were eight. One of the things you always look for when a World Cup comes around, when a Euros comes around, is you're like, what is the... [50:03] footballing identity of this country. You know, like, what do these guys want to do? How do they want to play? Argentina is going to, [50:11] is going to be physical, they're going to be aggressive, and then they are going to wait for their moment, and then they're going to turn it on.

And they have the best player of all time to do that with. Spain is going to play... [50:23] largely like I would identify it with Barcelona style possession football, pass and move one touch stuff. And yeah, [50:32] It really is like I've had all of these semifinals and now this finals. I'm like, you could tell me so many different variations. I'm going to go Spain because it's been Spain for me since before the tournament. But it's going to be a fascinating match. If they pull out a yellow because Paredes bricks a guy in the first minute.

[50:51] Then, you know, we're going to know what's happening. It'll be Lamin-Yemal in some way, shape, or form. He's getting hacked down within the first 10 minutes of the game. Yeah, Tagliofigo is just going to, like, absolutely clothesline him. [51:04] But, yeah, I think it has to be Spain in my head, but in my... [51:09] In my experience over these last two weeks, [51:12] It's just like, I just, you cannot kill Argentina. [51:15] Well, [51:17] there's a little 2024 Chiefs-y and vibes to what the [51:21] Argentines are doing. It's like late wins, close comebacks, one score victories kind of thing, like the whole bit.

And they keep pulling it off. They keep pulling it off. You're like, they can't keep getting away with this. And then sometimes you get like an Eagles, you know, shout out CR. Eagles are busy. But sometimes, you know, you get a 49ers have a third down and three to win the Super Bowl. They don't convert. And now the Chiefs somehow win the [51:48] I will not count out Argentina, certainly. [51:51] However, I do think Spain should, is, and will be the favorite going into Sunday.