Down Goes OKC! Spurs-Knicks is Here! What the Hell Just Happened? And What Does OKC Do Now? | With Zach Lowe

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[02:22] on a beautiful Saturday night. We just had an awesome... [02:25] Awesome game seven. My favorite game sevens. [02:29] are when it's not just a series at stake or maybe even the title at stake, but I feel like there's [02:35] real big picture basketball shit going on. [02:38] Like era shit, legacy shit. [02:41] changing the guard type stuff. And it just felt this way from the beginning. And eventually we'll remember it as the Luke Cornett chase down game. [02:50] That was it. [02:51] It's the Cornette game. [02:53] Lock it down.

Biggest play of the game. Luke Cornett, much maligned the entire series. Now, where do you want to start? I mean, that was incredible. [03:01] I... [03:03] I want to start with what you just said about [03:06] you know, Torrico punctuates the game. It's Wemby's world now. [03:10] And it's absolutely remarkable to, [03:13] that the Spurs are already here. [03:15] They're so young. [03:16] And look, they've been a clear championship team for a while now. The experience thing didn't bother me. It didn't limit their chances to me. But when you see them all embracing after the game, all the young faces, they're so young.

The joy they have and Wemby's crying and all this. It's like they're already here at the pinnacle. And we are... [03:37] what is it right now, May, five, four months removed. I mean, it was really not until those December games, starting with the Vegas tournament. They played three times in like 10 days. [03:45] Until San Antonio won those games, the story of the season was, [03:50] Is it going to be 73 wins? Are they going to be maybe the greatest regular season team of all time and have the greatest two-year run of all time and start of a dynasty?

And the Spurs eviscerated that in a 10-day span in December, started this series with a remarkable win on the road and end it with a remarkable win on the road and go into the finals with De'Aaron Fox looking healthier, Dylan Harper looking healthier, and Wemby at the top of the league. And yet, you use the phrase changing of the guard, Wemby's world. [04:20] I already want the 2027 Western Conference Finals to start because there's going to be a lot of talk about what is Oklahoma City going to do in the wake of this crushing defeat, their title hopes dash, this rising phenom that they and nobody else has an answer for.

What I want in my basketball fan soul is run it all back. Jalen Williams, you were injured. We're running it back. Chet, we got a lot of Chet talk to do. [04:50] us, whatever you want to do to come back stronger. Where did Dirk go? Yeah. The remote parts of Australia. Yeah. And just, and just come back and say, you thought it was a changing of the guard. We're coming right back at you again with the same core group that we had tonight. But these two teams going back and forth is awesome.

And for the Spurs to be here is absolutely incredible. [05:12] Wow, you just chewed up a lot of storylines there. Let's get, but there's, that was great. Let's start here with the Spurs though. [05:21] Young core teams that make the finals, this just basically only happens once a decade. [05:26] 77 Blazers, 86 Rockets, 95 Magic, LeBron and the 07 Cavs. [05:32] 15 warriors, sort of. [05:36] Curry's like six years in at that point. [05:39] We had the 87 Mavs almost, the 93 Sonics almost. [05:44] Um, there's been some almost, this is like the youngest, craziest run.

Even the 86 rockets seem more conceivable to me. [05:52] than this. And then they go down 3-2. I picked the Spurs before the series. I genuinely thought they could win. After game five, I thought it was a wrap because of, [06:01] Because the Fox... [06:03] And because of Harper, they just didn't look right. Harper looked great in game six. We were texting before the game. Tell them what your prediction was before the game. Well, I mean, I said Fox was going to have 15 points on six of 14 shooting. I thought I basically said he's going to have a good game, not a great game.

You were worried that he was going to have. I was worried for the 0 for 11. Yeah. Yeah. [06:25] Cataclysmic. Like, is it already time to trade him game? And I was like, I like the shots that he was getting in game six. And I was like, I think he's just going to have a good, fine, productive game. [06:33] So what did he end up with? [06:35] He was... [06:37] I think you nailed the prediction. 15 points on six of 12. You nailed it. You needed to miss two more shots for me to get it exactly right.

All right. So here's what I jotted down. [06:46] From the everything we would want from a game seven standpoint. [06:50] We had two fantastic teams. Yes. [06:53] with two tremendous stars that I, [06:55] I think played really well. And I want to talk about SGA in a second, but [06:59] Both of those guys were awesome in that game for different reasons. And you had two fascinating career moments for those guys too. You have SGA. [07:07] You talked about it with Goldsberry after the game six. Like, eh. [07:11] We're throwing his name around with some pretty legendary guys from the last 75, 80 years.

It would kind of be nice if you had a better series. Could we ask for that? And he was lights out. And then you have Wemby going on the road. [07:23] Down 3-2 in a series. [07:25] battling foul trouble. [07:28] We get down the stretch. I didn't feel like NBC, I thought NBC did it. The crew did a good job today. It was the one time where... [07:35] I felt like they should have been losing their minds that Wimby got that fifth foul so fast because he got four and then all of a sudden he had five and it's like, [07:41] Oh my God, there's seven minutes left.

[07:43] Is he going to foul out? What are they going to do? Are they going to take him out? So we had that. And then we had the Chet. [07:49] self-combusting piece. [07:50] which we have to get into too. But Zach, I thought, [07:55] This game had pieces. I had three series written down. The 81 Celtics Sixers, which were the last time two awesome teams played in a game seven like this. They both had 62-plus wins. [08:05] Same kind of chaotic rugby type game. Bulls Pacers... [08:10] With OKC in the Bulls in 98, OKC in the Bulls spot of...

[08:15] Down six, down eight, down four, down eight again, down two, down eight, just kind of trying to scrap back and getting into it. [08:24] And yet the Bulls came back and won and OKC did not. And then the other one I had was the 2016 Golden State OKC game, ironically. And that was in Golden State, but... [08:34] OKC, just the shots, they just couldn't get good shots. [08:38] Like you even think about like all the offensive rebounds that in the first half and then Wallace like saving them down the stretch.

[08:44] But the offense, the non-SGA offense was so hard for them. So explain it to us. What happened? Well, I mean, Jill Williams and J. Mitchell are hurt. That's part of it. And you take those guys away and it's like, oh, my God, we're real short on creators. And honestly, when SGA didn't come out. [08:58] at the end of the first quarter. Did you think he might play all 48 minutes of the game? Because I did. [09:03] Well, there was two panic things. He ended up, I think, 44 minutes. That was one.

And the other was they came out to start the third quarter and, [09:11] They had Wallace out there and J. Will and Caruso. And it was like, oh, we're... [09:16] Dagnall's doing this now. He's worried this game's going to get away. So there was definitely... He's calling timeouts. I felt like he was... [09:24] desperately trying to hold on to this game. They did some interesting sub stuff too with the centers, especially in the second half where I think they, he was kind of realizing maybe I can't rely on Chet. [09:34] admit I'll start him in the third quarter, but I'm also going to have Hart and staying in as fast as I can if he's not there.

But ultimately, that's why they lost. I don't want to do the. [09:43] Monday morning, first take, just blame a guy. He didn't step up, send him to Siberia. But [09:49] I voted for him, I think, third team All-NBA. He was the number two defensive player of the year. [09:57] And he didn't want to shoot. And it got to the point, Zach, where they were throwing him past him. He wasn't even catching passes clean anymore. Like he was as far in your head as you can get on a basketball court. Would you have sat him or would you have stuck with him?

I think without – I think if they had more options, they probably would have sat him. And then they sat him late for McCain when it was almost too little – [10:17] Too late. [10:17] Um, yeah, [10:20] Yeah, I mean, there's just, first of all, SGA was everything you would ever want him to be in a game where I think there was some actual, like, career-defining pressure on him after six in a series. Like, a scintillating game of shot-making. He had the one annoying jump sideways into Devin Vassell. But when you get a guy airborne, the benefit of the doubt is going to go to you.

When a guy bites at your pump fake so badly that he's flying in the air, you're probably going to get the goal. I thought you couldn't go sideways on that, though. [10:50] You shouldn't. It's inconsistently officiated, but it doesn't matter. He played an absolutely brilliant game. Wemby played a brilliant game. To me, the series changed in Game 4. [11:02] when they stop double teaming Shea. [11:04] And that was, I think you and I did a podcast after that game, and I said that there's a little whiff of like – [11:09] I didn't really make this comparison, but it was the first thing that came into my head of when the Warriors in Game 4 of the finals in 2015 went with the death lineup and started Iguodala.

And you could sense like, oh, the terrain of this just changed in a way that is not going back into the tube. I thought not trapping SGA changed the whole series, made his life difficult, made the Thunder's offense life difficult. And I talked to Goldberg. I had a checklist for what does Oklahoma City need? [11:36] to win game seven, even at home, because the Spurs had been the better team through six games. And the checklist was, there were three things on the checklist. They got one. I said they needed two.

One was a good Shea game. They got a great Shea game. Two was they're going to need a really strong... [11:51] three-point shooting performance from the role players. I'm not counting 12 of 35 as checking that box. I think that's like 34%. They need it better than that. They were like 29% before the end of the game. And then the third one was they're going to need to force a lot of turnovers and get out in transition. And the Spurs, again, won the turnover battle tonight. That's been the story of the series since Game 2.

So they only got one out of three. I would have thrown in offensive rebounds for there, which they were getting in the first half. And then it just flipped in the second half. [12:21] He ended up with 15 offensive rebounds. He had four at halftime. Well, and I'll tell you, Dylan Harper had two... [12:27] And both of them led to baskets. And both of them were the result of Oklahoma City messed up a rotation at the top of the arc. And the guy from the corner had to panic rotate up at a shooter who was left open by mistake.

And both times, I think it was Harper both times, the corner guy crashed and got huge rebounds. And let's do like Chet. Let's do SJ and Wemby first and then we can talk about Chet. [12:53] So to finish the SGA thing, [12:56] That was one of my favorite games I've ever seen him play. [12:58] Because I felt like, first of all, worst possible team for him to play, right? Where they have... I think it's just the worst possible team for everybody to play. Like, that's just... This is what this guy is now.

He's the worst possible guy to play if you're an offense first player. But they... [13:15] But they also had a bunch of perimeter guys who seemed pretty comfortable at least trying to stay in front of him. They were trapping him really smartly. And he was just solving it for two hours. And – [13:26] I didn't think he was doing a lot of the flop stuff. I thought everything he was doing was just like really smart scoring. He made a couple of threes, uh, [13:34] And it felt like, wow, if they win this game...

[13:37] This is going to... [13:38] I know he won two MVPs in a row and he won the title last year, but this will be like the defining game that I'm not positive he's had yet. The first game you would point to. And then he just ran out of gas. And Reggie and Jamal, who I thought did a good job tonight, [13:51] They noticed it right away. They noticed he started bailing on the passes and stuff, but that's about as well as he could play. Finished with 35. [14:00] But as you said earlier, [14:01] You don't have Mitchell.

Now McCain's taking up most of that Mitchell minutes and playing really well, but Jalen Williams was... [14:08] That was it. Because Jalen Williams would have allowed them to go bigger, smaller. He would have been the second creator. And they just... [14:14] You could really feel it today. They didn't have that second guy. Yeah, and you mentioned the big man stuff. I think what they concluded was... [14:21] And you could see them trending this way the whole series was – [14:25] We cannot play another big man with Hartenstein because there's just not enough shooting and dynamism on the floor.

But we do want to have as much size as possible because Wemby is just so dynamic at the rim. We need a second layer of rim protection. So we would like to play two bigs. The only two big combination we have left that we have any faith in is Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren. They just completely separated into those two in the second half. [14:55] big man who can play with a traditional center that's the whole point of him and he he ended up averaging like 10.5 points per game in the series and was completely invisible the entire game and you never want to read too much into one game but when you play like that in this game that matters a lot and is going to have some lasting effects that he and the team are going to have to get together and figure out like how do we not have that ever happen again because [15:25] acceptable performance of a guy from a guy of his caliber.

The whole series was leading to that. And this was the low point. [15:31] I got this email a few times before... [15:35] Game seven. [15:37] And I wrote down because I had a feeling we'd be talking about this. But Joe from Pennsylvania wrote, I have no dog in this fight. But if you're an OKC fan, would you be worried that Wemby is taking Chet's soul? [15:47] who wrote this before game seven, [15:48] Um, [15:49] Ben Craven wrote, do you see any parallels between what Wemby is doing to Chet and what Jordan did to Drexler?

[15:54] Greg in Toronto wrote is Chet vs. Wemby the best modern example of two generational unicorns where the mere existence of one completely robs the relevance of the other? Chet deserves praise for not ordering a Tonya Harding level hit job. [16:10] on Wemby? [16:11] um i mean we don't know what's going on we're not watching the post game right now this should all be happening now there could be the tanya harding hit jump could be it now shane stan is he out of prison um [16:22] So, [16:23] Here's the thing.

[16:25] I don't see how this gets better. [16:28] And it's going to open up over when Giannis. Wow. We're talking about Giannis again. Giannis is going to go in the next three weeks. And it does make me think like, OKC, who felt like their window was the most limitless window possible. [16:40] And now all of a sudden they're like, holy shit, we couldn't even make two finals in a row? [16:44] with this unbelievable setup we had. [16:47] Do you start that? I just feel like Chet and Giannis, that's going to be mentioned for the next 72 hours.

And it's not Presti style to do a trade like that. We should say. So it's not. And I do think you have to zoom out a little bit and say, [17:00] minus two of our most important players, [17:03] We took a team to Game 7 who is... [17:06] a great great like these were two great great basketball teams yes it's not as if you can come away with this sort of like we've just fallen hopelessly behind the rest of the league and like things have caught up to us i i think you would probably take the long view you blame the injuries they i just think you take the long view like we're not we're not far away we're going to learn from this that's what i said at the beginning i want i want a vengeance narrative to come i want the thunder to come together and say no no it's still our time it's still our time with this core we just weren't up to it this time we're going to learn from it and get better next time [17:36] And about Chet, [17:37] First of all, after this performance, how much more does Oklahoma City have to throw in to entice Milwaukee?

And you have massive second apron issues for the Thunder. They can't aggregate contracts, so it's not that easy to do. They're going to be the most – one of the most, if not the most expensive teams in the league ever. We're talking about that later really quick. But, like, how much – how enticing is that to Milwaukee? But it's not like Chet. [18:02] So it's disturbing that they concluded Chet is offensively, like, can't play next to his center by the end of the series. It's just not working. He's not doing anything.

He's not even looking at the rim out open. But how about why couldn't he have done what J-Will did? J-Will was the spacing center that Chet has been for his entire career. What happened? But not only that, like, so he just can't really play center at all in this matchup. You can't put him at the five as the only big man on the floor and have him screen and roll to the basket [18:32] He's also awesome at, which is be giant and tall and screen and roll to the basket. You can't have him guard Wemby pretty much ever.

Like you're that terrified of putting them at the five and having him guard Wemby in this series. It's just, right. There are just a thousand red flags around Chet after this series. And it's just, he's going to have to dig deep and they're going to have to dig deep. And cause this, this rival, this, [18:52] is only going to get better in the next three to four years. Well, you're doing the Tim Connelly... [18:58] I've now taken over Minnesota. How do I create the team to beat the team I just left?

[19:03] And if you're OKC now, [19:06] You went from, we want to have this long window, we have these picks, and you're going to have [19:11] we're going to try to figure out how to navigate everything, build around these three guys, use all our draft picks to maybe move up, move around to drafts. [19:19] to now like, [19:20] How do we beat Wemby? [19:22] Do you look at number 12? There's a Michigan center who's seven foot three. Do you try to trade up and get them? [19:29] Do you try to trade Chet for...

[19:31] brianis or evan mobley do you i don't even know and then the other question would be [19:36] Should you even be panicking about Wemby? Because nobody has a guy to guard Wemby. It's not like there are other teams in the league who are like, we have our Wemby stopper over here. There's not going to be a Wemby stopper. They did the best job you're going to do. I think for me, I think it's much more toward that second poll that you outlined. There is not going to be a silver bullet answer.

In fact, I think if there is one, it's more shooting. I think they were a shooter short in the series, and it just made it easy for him to rove around and just patrol the paint and be on the baseline. [20:06] And, you know, they're like Wallace had a good game for them tonight and is a decent shooter. McCain is an up and down three point shooter. I just think they were Caruso teams are like had a great series. What was he? One of six on threes tonight. Almost dunked on Wemby.

That was exciting for about for a second. Hurt his wrist. I think if I think if there is an answer, that's the answer is just we got to get as much shooting as possible and have faith in our defense around it to round it out. [20:32] This was their issue last year, and it didn't really rear its ugly head, even though they didn't play in two seventh games. But that was the oldest thing you always would look at the threes. The games that got blown out this series, they sucked from three.

They were moves they could have made. [20:46] during this season. [20:48] With all the picks and all the young players they have. You know, there were people sitting around. Like that, like... [20:55] Who knows when Trey Murphy is going to get traded? That was the name floating around my head as I was talking. [21:01] Yeah. And maybe that's a move they make. That's another thing is Trey Murphy. We assume he's probably getting a trade over his next three weeks. I think Boston is a possibility. We thought whoever lost this matchup was a possibility.

There's a couple other teams, but you know, you have two, three weeks to trade for somebody like that. Um, [21:18] We'll talk more OKC later. Let's... [21:21] We'll take a quick break. [21:23] And we're going to come back. And we've got to talk about Wemby and just everything we saw in this series and what that might look like against the Knicks, too. [21:30] This episode is brought to you by Duluth Trading Company. Whether it's the 19th inning, the 12th quarter, [21:37] or the fifth and a half shift over time, [21:40] Not going anywhere.

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[22:15] dot com. [22:18] Victor Wambidyama. [22:20] 22 years old. [22:22] If you're going to nitpick his performance in the playoffs, you might say... [22:26] Protect the defensive boards a little better. [22:29] Um, [22:31] Maybe take your time on doubles. [22:34] Try to figure out how to get closer to the basket. [22:38] I don't know. That's all I got. He was fucking awesome. He was a maniac. There are no nits. There's no picking. I'm not doing it. Everyone wants him closer to the basket all the time. And I think the people who screen that all the time, even though some of them are ex-players, and I certainly am not, are underestimating how...

[22:56] fatiguing it is to throw yourself at the basket. [22:59] over and over and over again when you're skinny and you do what he does on defense and just how hard it is like the days of just throw the ball into the post and post up and back down have been over for like 25 years and the reality is his games are like he broke through the other night and he took nine threes I think and his jumper was on again today and he made that step back over Jalen Williams on the left wing I almost fell out of my goddamn chair it's always going to be a mix and that's okay and he's [23:27] defensively, [23:28] There are just no words anymore for what this guy is doing.

I mean, I said it with Goldsberry, and I've wondered where this game ranks. Five of Oklahoma City's nine worst offensive games, points per possession, going into this game tonight, were against, for the whole season, playoffs included, were against the Spurs. Like, it's just a weapon that no one has an answer to yet. [23:47] You know when you really noticed it? When he would come out of the game and SGA was like... [23:52] When I let Murph out in the backyard, he just runs around. And Shane was like, he's not out there.

You could just see, like, the hop in his step. It's like, oh, my God. Hey, look. That's what the rim looks like. You led with it almost as a joke. [24:04] I do think that Cornette block, if we're going to talk about the Wemby on the bench minutes, [24:09] I mean, that was, if he finishes that fast break, Hartenstein, or passes it off to Wallace, because it was kind of a two-on-one, that makes it 97-93. Wemby's in foul trouble. Crowd's going crazy. Instead, it's a block, and I can't remember who ends up scoring at the other end to make it 99-91.

[24:28] Just... [24:29] It was a castle. It was a castle jumper. That... And they're... [24:33] Their transition defense the entire series was just balls to the wall. Oklahoma City just could not convert in transition as consistently because everything was contested. The rebounds were contested. Like credit to Spurs. That's the kind of urgency it takes to beat a team like this four times. And like that Cornette, that Cornette block was amazing. [24:53] Maybe the moment of the entire game. I don't know, but it's up there. [24:58] Well, there were two moments when it felt like OKC was going to make a run, and that was one.

So it's 97-92, 6.48 left, Wemby has to come out. [25:07] And then there was that other one when it was – [25:12] I'm going to say it was like two minutes left. Wallace hit that second three. [25:16] And then San Antonio inbounded the ball. All this stuff's blending together. [25:21] And they just decided to run the let's throw it to Wemby play. Oh, yeah. Door took it away. Door took it. [25:27] And, you know, [25:28] OKC just couldn't convert, but it felt like, oh my God, this would be the classic young team falling apart piece.

But I listen to. [25:37] I really respect when somebody knows how to handle themselves with five fouls because they brought him back a minute later. He came back with like over five minutes left. [25:45] And the announcers were talking about it. I agreed. Like, I'm just going at him and trying to get that. [25:50] that sixth one. And there were a couple times it felt like they could have attacked him and [25:54] And they just didn't. So there were a couple of things San Antonio did even in this game to try to

[26:00] try to get him a little more open. A couple of times they just put him in the corner and, [26:04] And created space, basically left him on one side. [26:08] And had him not really back down, but he was at least 18 feet where he can go toward the paint with his right hand. So maybe trying to think what stuff the Knicks will try to do against them. [26:18] Now, the Knicks have that Mitchell Robinson finger thing. [26:21] I assume who's going to play, but who knows? They'll have Towns to throw at him, who's a dumb foul waiting to happen all the time.

Other than that, who are they going to be able to – like OG would be the other one, I guess? Ananobi guarded him quite a lot. I rewatched all the games this weekend to prep for – A little Josh Hart, maybe? Split second or no? Josh didn't guard him much. Josh guarded Steph Castle a lot. OG guarded him a lot. Probably Towns and Ananobi and Robinson. And then there's like random guys who are in these games because they're regular season games. Like Huck Portie comes in and whatever. [26:51] I think we'll see a little bit of...

And that is where the Harrison Barnes swap out of the starting lineup for Champagny, who was absolutely nailed in this game tonight. Looms large because when the Knicks would play around like that and put Ananobi on Wembenyama, Harrison Barnes was the guy that they would be like, all right, Kat, just stand in the corner with Harrison Barnes and that's safe for you. And that doesn't really... [27:13] exists anymore. But the Robinson, I just want to flag it now. [27:18] I think he's a massive deal in this series because one of the other things I've come to believe watching Wemby is everyone searches for like, what's an answer?

Is there an answer? Is there a player? And like I said, I don't think there is one. There's no individual player. I think shooting is an answer. And I do think an elite offensive rebounder and lob catcher. [27:38] Someone that he's got to think about. [27:41] Like if I try to block every shot and even I'm going to miss some, am I going to get punished on the other end of it? Or is there a lob threat? And I think Mitchell Robinson, obviously in the Vegas game, he had like a thousand offensive rebounds.

I think that player type is a really important player type against the Spurs. And like they then if they don't have Mitchell Robinson full throttle, I think that's a bigger problem in this matchup than it would have been against the Thunder. [28:07] I wrote, [28:08] Anytime I watch a game like this, I always write down in the second quarter, [28:12] in bold, the guys who... [28:16] I think I trust in the game. [28:19] So for the Spurs, I had Wemby, Castle, Fox, Vassell, Harper, and Champagny. So it's six guys for them.

[28:26] And that was before the Kelden Johnson renaissance in the second half, right? They had seven guys. [28:31] really show up in this game, not to mention Cornette, who had the biggest defensive play. [28:36] For OKC at that point. By the way, I just want to point out, that's basically all seven guys who played in the game. The other three guys played six minutes, three minutes and three minutes. I felt great about all those guys. [28:48] OKC, I had SGA, McCain, Caruso, K. [28:52] And then I had iHeart question mark and J Will question mark.

[28:56] And those were the only five guys I had for OKC. Now, I didn't have Wallace down. Wallace came on in the second. He didn't really play as much in the first half. [29:04] Um, and while I should have been on there, maybe I forgot to write him down, but, um, [29:08] But it's interesting, I didn't have Chet [29:10] And I didn't have Kelden Johnson. And Kelden Johnson, who I thought really wasn't [29:14] Good this series. [29:16] But then in the second half, he had some big offensive rebounds. [29:20] He had a couple big threes that there were a couple of no, no, yes threes.

[29:24] And had the red kind of energy. [29:29] Whereas from the OKC standpoint, Dort was that guy for them last year. [29:35] He would give them energy with defense, with just kind of veteran stuff, and he just wasn't – I didn't feel like he was the same in this playoffs. Look, I think it's not second-guessing. I am certainly – I was not alone said after game six. I don't think you can start Dort and Holmgren and Hardenstein again in game seven because you're just getting bolt-raced at the beginning of every game.

Would you have started Harper and Baylor Shireman? [29:59] But I, again, I said after that game, I don't know... [30:05] Like we always say chest, not checkers. I'm not sure what Missoula was playing. I think he was playing Bible that night and it neither, neither chest nor checker. It had been some Bible. Um, [30:13] I just couldn't believe he started that lineup again. To his credit, he pulled Dort real fast and put Caruso in, and the damage was not as severe as it could have been. But, like, every time... [30:25] The Thunder got there were two times the Thunder took the lead.

[30:29] And when they took the lead, it felt like they had gotten to the top of the mountain. And boy, what a relief. And just instantaneously, the Spurs would go on like a 9-0 run to say like, no, no, we're going to retake control again. The first one is at the end of the first half when they finish on a 7-0 run right after the Thunder took the lead. And I think there was another time in the second half. And just like that's so impressive to take that punch, to have the crowd going like that.

[30:52] Four-point lead, three-point lead, whatever it was, and just instantaneously, like, oh, an 11-0 run just happened. And it's not just they're ahead again, they're in control of the game again, and they got to fight back again from 7-8-9 down. It's just, like, sensational responses by the Spurs. [31:07] Fox especially, I thought, had a couple big boy moments. [31:12] Right when the momentum felt like it was shifting against him and he had some old school... [31:17] Did he win Clutch Player of the Year? [31:19] Thank you. [31:19] He might have.

I don't know. For the second, he was like, who knows? He did. No, he did. I think it was the beam team year, which was the first year they had the award. I don't have my clutch player of the year by year thing framed yet, so I'm not able to look at it. But it was the old school. Fox ended with 15-5. He had three steals. [31:36] And I thought he did an okay job anytime he was on SGA too. Like when... [31:41] I don't even really know who OKC was trying to switch SGA onto because it felt like every single guy was at least – [31:48] passable with Wemby behind them.

There wasn't like a [31:53] like a black hole type person. If we've done it, the next series, it would have been Brunson. It ends up not mattering because it doesn't matter of the guy that's, uh, that's behind him. Like you said. Yeah. Um, [32:04] So Champagne hit. [32:05] Six threes. [32:08] And it was interesting. They didn't close with Vassell. [32:11] Um, [32:12] He was on the bench, I felt like, for most of the end because they were playing Harper, who we have to talk about. Oh, man. [32:20] Listen, man. [32:22] I've talked about it before, so have you.

[32:25] 20-year-old point guards... [32:27] Doing this on this stage on the road is unheard of. This is... [32:31] Yeah, I'm trying not to use the word generational. [32:33] But we're talking 1980 Magic Johnson. [32:37] at age 20 in the finals. And we're talking Derek Rose and that both Celtics playoff series, 20 year old point guards are a mess. [32:44] They're like freshmen in high school just trying to remember what their locker combination is and just trying to survive the day and remember where the classrooms are. [32:53] They're not supposed to be running the offense.

He had that one when we backed down. [32:58] I can't remember who it was. He backed him down, did the footwork thing and kind of stopped. I think traveled. It felt like it might have been a travel, but somehow ended up pulling. But I just we're going to have 15 years of that. [33:09] I thought that was such an important game for him because now, you know, the Knicks – [33:14] That atmosphere is going to be even crazier. It's the finals. The spotlight's a little bigger, but I think they know with him.

He seemed healthy to me, too, the last two games, which is the big thing. Yeah, bounce back. His bounce is back. His power around the rim is back. He tried to do that crazy dunk, too. [33:29] Yeah. In the fourth quarter, which was probably a mistake, but he was like, I'm going for it. Yeah. I mean, they killed some clock before, but again, I was surprised that he just went for it. But I'm also not because he thinks he's going to pull it off. And imagine if you do, you just I think Chet Holmgren would have just broken into like 10,000 pieces and that would have been the end of him.

And like, I don't know what you I just don't know what would have happened. [33:51] Portshed. [33:53] This is really going to be a tough one for him. [33:56] Harper, Castle, Fox together. [33:59] This was the dream when you got Fox. [34:02] When it's like, we'll have these three guys. Sometimes we'll even be able to play them together. This will ease Harper into this. Fox on a bigger stage, on a better team. Fox is in Sacramento in Chicago. [34:13] Would you call them in our over-under pod? [34:16] The Hindenburg or the NBA?

I said they were heading for a Hindenburg-level season. By the way, we have a De'Aaron Fox, Mike Brown. We got off the Hindenburg reunion coming up in the finals. We have a reunion for them. But Fox gets out of there. [34:29] And the ringers, Rich Paul smartly puts him on Wemby's team, which was, I think, a good move. [34:35] And this couldn't have worked out better. I mean, you guess where else he could be? On Sacramento. [34:43] With Russell Westbrook and DeRozan and... [34:46] waiting to see who they pick, how they're going to fuck up the seventh pick.

So you have that. [34:51] Castle was... [34:52] I thought he was incredible the whole series. He's 21. It's not like he's 10 years older than Harper. The defense, when he had the four fouls, I was nervous for them because it's like, I don't [35:03] know if you can survive if he's out of the game that long. I don't know. What has he become? [35:08] What is Castle in five years for you? [35:11] Who is he? I mean, an all star for sure. A multi who's the doppelganger who like, who is it?

[35:18] I mean, you have to think who's a big physical guard who gets by with brute force and passing creativity around it. And by that time is probably a more reliable jump shooter than he is now, although he shot the three well in the playoffs. I'm trying to even think of who... [35:33] plays with the raw power and like, [35:36] ferocity that he has. He plays with a hatred of the guy in front of him. I just want to beat the shit out of you and go upright in your face.

Yeah, he was tired of Caruso after seven games. I think he had enough of him. I don't know. No one is coming to my mind as a great [35:56] guard wing doppelganger for him. [35:59] It's somebody that definitely belonged in a different era and decade. [36:03] I think he would have been really happy in 2003. [36:06] or 2004, [36:07] being in like those Pacers Piston Series, but yeah, I don't [36:12] I don't really know even who to compare him to. Like a meaner... [36:17] Is he taller than Dwayne Wade? Like a meaner...

[36:21] More aggressive, more powerful Dwayne Wade? I don't know. [36:26] It's like a Dwayne Raid crust with Alvin Robertson. I'm going to go back to the 80s. Alvin Robertson. [36:31] Um, [36:32] So anyway, you have that. [36:34] You have this Cornette sign in that they do that was really smart. They played the Celtics perfectly and then [36:40] Cornette, every time Wemby comes out, they lose the Cornette minutes. And at some point, [36:44] I had a couple of people in my life who liked the Spurs. They're like, what's up with this cornet?

What a stiff. I'm like, he's not a stiff. [36:50] Cornette's a good backup. This is just for whatever reason, can't get it going this series. And then finally was able to hold the forward a little tonight. But what's interesting about them going forward, they have the Wemby extension this summer regardless, but they can still kind of dabble and make this team better. I don't even know what you would do because you always want to base this stuff on who do we have in a game seven that we trust. And we just went through it.

I'm seven guys I like. Yeah, they have small windows to do small to medium things. The big things are [37:20] at it a little bit too and I didn't think too deeply about it because the series was still going on there it's not nearly as like financially dire as what's about to hit the thunder um [37:30] Thank you. [37:30] And they have the Carter Bryant piece, too. Like if he emerges, Keldon Johnson expiring next year. But if Carter Bryant becomes that perfect, like defensive, physical banger who can also hit threes and play next to Wemby, that's kind of what they need.

Well, the Keldon Johnson one is a big one, because if they end up having to keep him at what a fair rate would be for a guy who just won six men of the year, they love him and maybe they will. [38:00] Champagny, they have a team option on him next year for nothing, for $3 million. They get pretty expensive if they keep everybody together. But again, they have windows now. And by the way, we should, we always do this thing where we... [38:12] We, the collective we, everybody, points out when a team like the Rockets were the first team that we talked about like this.

The Pistons have gotten a little flack for it. Like, well, they had all these trade assets and they did nothing at the trade deadline. And look how it came back to haunt them in the playoffs. The Spurs did nothing at the trade deadline and they have a lot of assets. And everyone, I think, thought they were going to do something at the trade deadline. And they didn't. And they're in the finals. So sometimes it goes the other way, too. I was OK with them. [38:39] Because I felt like... [38:41] It was probably a year ahead of schedule.

They needed to taste their own butt in the playoffs. As it turned out, they didn't. No, they're drinking everybody else's blood. [38:50] But yeah, it's just like, let's take a year and see what we have because that's like, [38:54] What Sam Presti would have done, for instance. [38:57] But as it turned out, it turned out to be an incredible move. And they have a bunch of picks too, like, [39:02] they're going to be able to have some maneuverability. So how many Knicks fans in your life have, [39:07] We're texting you over the last 48 hours asking you who they should be rooting for in this game.

Oh, just because I had every single Knicks fan I knew was like, what do you think? Who, who should I root for? And I'm like, [39:19] If I'm you, I don't want to play Wemby in the finals. That's the way I would root for. So it's funny. I said this with Goldsberry. I just think you just have to say I don't care because the easy answer is like the answer they default to is the Spurs because we beat the Spurs twice, including in the cup. And we looked pretty comfortable against them.

We killed them at home in March. And the thunder of the thunder. I'm like, I just don't. The Spurs have risen to the level where there's just no great answer here. They're both bad answers. [39:49] and J. Mitchell is hurt, I think the Thunder might actually be the better answer, because I don't want any part of these guys. But they're just – [39:57] They're just excited. And honestly, weirdly, a lot of them were... [40:02] A lot of my Knicks fans, friends and acquaintances and people I run into were rooting for the Spurs regardless because they're just fascinated with Wemby.

And they have a lot of people really just have bought into even casual fans have bought into like the flopping with Oklahoma City drives me crazy. And I just don't like the way they play. Like Knicks fans were there. They're just like, you know what? Let's let's have some fun with Wemby. It'll be it'll be fun at the very least. [40:25] I am delighted that we don't have to talk about flopping anymore. [40:30] Thank God. Thank God that's over for content. And the most fun possible series... [40:36] Was Nick Spurs.

[40:37] Even though the basketball historian side of me was like, man, OKC, you know, [40:41] going through wars to try to win two straight titles. Like that would be really meaningful. That would put them on this whole other... [40:47] level, but [40:49] Nick Spurs is the most fun series. And if you're the league, this is like the, this is the all time wet. The only other wet dream. If you're talking wet dream finals, [41:00] It's this one. [41:01] It's 2016 LeBron rematch against the 73-win Warriors coming off the Klay Thompson-OKC game.

[41:08] It's the 2010 Lakers-Celtics season. [41:11] Rematch. [41:13] Right? [41:14] Those are the three wet dream finals for the league. And this might be number one, honestly, out of everything we mentioned, because you have the revival of the Knicks. You have 53 years and generations of fans waiting for this forever. And you have Wemby, your next guy, the guy who's... [41:30] ready to replace LeBron and Curry as, as the guy in the league already here. [41:36] Um, it's, it's like what we had in 2007, except the rest of his team is actually good.

[41:41] when it was Spurs-Cavs, and it's like, LeBron's here! Yeah, but he's... [41:45] playing with guys that have no chance against this first team, this is different. Like, Wembe could actually win it. And I feel... [41:52] I feel like we have some history with Wemby too now. And I think the Olympics was really important with that. [41:56] We've... [41:57] Even though he's young and he hasn't been around and he missed half of last season, I still feel like I've [42:02] seen him in some basketball games. Like he doesn't feel like a shiny new car to me.

He can't to you, right? We've been watching him for a few years now. We've been talking about him as arguably the best player in the league for five months now. Like he's here, he's been in big games. The international stuff was big and, uh, [42:18] NBA Cup. [42:19] Yeah. And this is, you know, um, [42:22] Another finals without any of the sort of older generation players that have carried the league for a long time. And it's the first, I think, well, I mean, depending on what you how you perceive of Shea or whatever.

But obviously there is a guy like everyone. Everyone is fascinated by women. People who have watched two basketball games the entire year and kind of half watch them while drinking in the suite somewhere at MSG. Like can't wait to watch this guy play. [42:48] on a big stage. He did a thing today in the fourth quarter. [42:52] It was like halfway through the fourth quarter. [42:57] Dylan Harper, maybe even like four minutes left. Dylan Harper ended up with the ball, and he kind of lost it around the foul line. All of a sudden, there's a fast break.

[43:04] And the OKC had a two-on-one. [43:07] And they end up throwing it in the left corner to McCain. [43:10] And Wemby was hustling back. And he's on like the three-point line. [43:14] but somehow challenged the shot. And he did like that crazy Wemby, like Freddy Krueger movie does. [43:20] And he almost blocked it. And if he had blocked it, that would have been the greatest block I've ever seen. If I had had time, I would have gone back and slowed it down because he's running and you know he's going to jump at it.

And you're just thinking... [43:33] He's so big that he's just... Jared McCain is at least going to know that he's coming, but probably also think... He can't actually get to it, but he's in my head a little bit. Like, did he actually almost... [43:45] He almost had it. It seemed like he did. That's why Tirico on the call, God bless him, was like, oh, Wemby did that Cornette contest. And I'm like, oh, if only Luke Cornette could do a Cornette contest like that. That was not the Cornette contest. That was something altogether different.

I get where you're going. He started from very far away, but that was not the Cornette contest. [44:08] This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it. [44:22] Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. [44:26] Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. [44:28] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite.

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[45:15] New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda. [45:19] Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. [45:26] But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs store-wide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. [45:39] Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. [45:44] FanDuel has the finals line for us. Okay. [45:47] You saw it? You looked at it? I saw it. It was not what I would have guessed.

I'll tell you what I would have guessed after, but what is your guess? Spurs. [45:58] Very slight favorites. Like what is the proper terminology? Like minus one 10 or something like that. Like minus. So like minus one 25 minus one 30 range is slight favorites. Yeah. [46:08] Yeah, so I would have said Spurs minus 150. [46:12] And it's Spurs minus 205. Ooh. Two to one favorites. Very similar to the Boston-Dallas-Basers. [46:19] Finals line If you want to do Spurs sweep That's plus 730 [46:25] If you want to do Nixon 4 or Nixon 5, that's 16 to 1 or 12 to 1.

[46:30] If you want to do... [46:31] the greatest night of basically everyone's life that we know from New York. Knicks win in six. [46:39] Plus 480. Look, if the Knicks win in six... [46:42] Shut down New York City. I'm either sleeping in Madison Square Garden or I'm doing a live podcast from the street, just drinking with crazy people. And you may never see me again. Those are the only two. Not sure we see really anybody again. I don't know what happens. I mean- [47:04] That will be the highest priced basketball ticket of all time.

It will be in the running for highest price sports ticket of all time. I don't know. Assuming we get it, let's assume we knock on wood that we have a game six and maybe a game seven in these finals. [47:18] I'm... [47:19] I'm supposed to go... [47:21] I can't go live after game two because my son is graduating high school. [47:25] Big moment. [47:26] Last time I skipped a game for his graduation was the Curry game. [47:30] uh curry game for boston gold state when he graduated the which you have stated grade which you have stated was probably good for your emotional health to not be at the game despite its historic significance i felt like whatever i did they were going to lose but i i'm glad i didn't go i missed the greatest game of step curry's career but my son obviously means more as he does for this high school graduation but it's just it almost guarantees game two is going to be good i'm not saying i have those powers but it's good for it's good for ben simmons that he's that he's [47:59] NBA players that you don't really know in the Bill Simmons love power rankings that he's sustained in these intervening four years that he hasn't fallen off at all.

Teenage Ben Simmons and stayed ahead of the other Ben Simmons, who is now a professional fisherman. [48:13] That was another thing. I was worried he was going to be like, what if Ben Simmons had been when Banyama, like been the biggest star in the same name. Did inside the NBA work Ben Simmons into the Sixers gone fishing graphic? They must have, right? Like if they didn't, I like what a missed opportunity. [48:32] He could be on another boat just fishing randomly, like not even on the Sixers boat. He's just on a boat nearby.

Yeah, is that in a boat in the back? Yeah. [48:42] You don't have to say your finals pick, but are you leaning... [48:45] I'll save it for your podcast, The Zach Glow Show. A great podcast. Yeah. We're going to record that. Are you leaning longer series or shorter? Longer. [48:53] I haven't made up my mind on who I'm going to pick to win, but I will say I think the line – [49:00] I think. [49:02] Would not favor the Spurs by as much as Vegas is favoring. I agree with you.

Off the bat. I think this next thing is real. Like, I think it's legit. I don't care what the level of competition is like to do this for this long. And you just know, like, I know what my eyes saw, how they are playing, but the Mitchell Robinson thing is a big, a big X factor. [49:21] The other X factor is the Spurs... [49:24] Probably just feel like they won the title, even though they have another team waiting. But that was such a, to come back 3-2, to do that on the road.

[49:31] It's about as emotional... [49:33] of just getting to the finals. I'm trying to think, who would have had a more emotional we just won the conference finals match? [49:40] When? [49:42] in the recent history of the NBA. Because normally it's more veteran teams, right? [49:46] I guess OKC beating San Antonio in 2012. [49:51] But even that wasn't a game seven. [49:53] We're thinking like winners. I'm just saying winning the conference finals, being that emotional to just win a conference finals. Miami beating Boston in 2012 was a good one. [50:04] But they were home.

[50:06] But yeah, it's pretty rare to have like... [50:09] I remember going back to the 90s because I wrote down – it's funny. I went through all the Game 7s and Conference Finals because – [50:16] Um, [50:18] What was rare about the thing today, there was every time it's under 200 points. [50:23] Like for, uh, [50:24] Basically, you know, [50:25] Before 1993, every game has been under 200 points except for 2002 Lakers-Kings overtime was 106-102. So usually they're rock fights. [50:36] And then... [50:37] For the most part, the home team's always won until recently.

And that was the fifth one in a row that the road team has won. [50:43] Which is nuts. The home team's conference finals game seven, conference finals game seven specifically. [50:50] But I'm looking at the list of most emotional ones. I guess LeBron beating Boston by himself is... [50:56] in 2018 is up there. That was one of the most incredible things I've ever seen. He played all 48. I know he'd won a couple titles already, but the emotion of just dragging that team that he had all the way three series, that was pretty nuts.

That was the only emotional Eastern Conference triumph for that LeBron 2.0 in Cleveland because the other ones, I'm not even sure. Yeah, they were like layers. They realized what round they were in, and someone was just told, no, you're actually in the finals now. You get to play the West team. You just beat all these teams again.