#2516 - Rowan Jacobsen

[00:00] Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day! [00:12] Yep. All right. Very nice to meet you, man. You too. Thanks for having me. Thank you. And thanks for doing this work because you want to talk about a subject that's confused so many people. Is the sun good for you? Is the sun killing you? Why does it give you vitamin D if it's bad for you? Why? [00:27] Why do people get skin cancer if it's good for you? [00:30] Yeah, it's super complicated, and the messaging has not sort of admitted that, and that was, yeah, a big impetus for the book.

What was your opinion of Sun Exposure before you started writing this? So I had, you know, I had inherited the conventional wisdom from the institutions that – [00:49] It was really bad. At the same time, I will admit that my instincts – [00:54] where that... [00:55] Maybe it wasn't as bad as they were leading me to believe, because whenever I was in the sun, I felt good. And I live in Vermont. By the time winter was reaching like month six, I felt bad. Right. Right. So it's like, there's more here than we're being told.

[01:10] Yeah, that was my wife's opinion. She's like, the sun can't be bad. It always feels good when you go out there. I'm like, I don't know. It's a little more complicated than that, but that is the instinct. Like, it feels great when you're in the sun. Like, ah. It's like your body wants it. Your body wants it. I mean, we now know that it literally – [01:28] triggers the release of opiates in the brain. [01:30] Sunlight. [01:31] So... [01:32] Your body wants it, and your body rewards you when you get it.

So what is the issue? Well, let's go back to the beginning. So you had this idea that sun exposure is probably giving people cancer, and sunscreen is good. You need to wear sunscreen. Stay out of the sun. So when you started going into the research, what made you shift your opinion? So it really started for me like seven or eight years ago. I was on this science journalism fellowship, so I was just doing research. [02:02] brain. Other studies showing that when light hits skin, [02:06] Um... [02:07] cognition actually improves. Like your metabolism improves.

[02:10] cranks up a little bit. [02:12] when the body feels sunlight coming in. And I thought, that's interesting, that's all good stuff. Then I came across a couple other studies that seemed to indicate [02:23] that sunlight could lower blood pressure, which was really interesting. So then I still had the sense... [02:29] sunlight bad, right? So then I remember just, like, Googling, like, so how much does sunlight, like, [02:35] shorten your lifespan. And, like, the punchline is... [02:39] Sunlight. [02:40] seems to extend your lifespan. So when I hit that, I was like, [02:43] Why are we not hearing this?

So that was the beginning. And so... [02:47] So what is the problem? What is the issue with sunlight? When you think about skin cancer, what are the confounding factors that lead to skin cancer? Are we completely aware of that? Yeah. [03:00] It's more complicated than we thought. So Sunlight does... [03:04] increase your risk of skin cancer. But [03:07] depending on the type of skin cancer you're talking about, it's not necessarily like a linear relationship. [03:13] so [03:14] Yes, in general. [03:15] Too much sun. [03:17] Increases your risk of skin cancer.

But yeah, the question is, what are the confounding factors? How important is skin cancer compared to these other things? If sunlight reduces your risk of other diseases, how does that weigh against... [03:28] the risk of skin cancer. So... [03:32] It's not the type of thing that can be done in a 30-second PSA. [03:37] Right. So – [03:39] So sun cancer that does cause skin cancer, excuse me, sun exposure that does cause skin cancer, what is causing it? Why is it happening? So ultraviolet light, which is the most energy intense part of the solar spectrum.

[03:53] When those photons of light [03:56] hit. [03:56] your skin, they go inside, right? We absorb all [04:01] wavelengths of light to [04:02] a greater or lesser degree. And that super high energy ultraviolet light [04:07] If it hits a DNA molecule, it can mess up the DNA molecule, and then that can lead to mutations and skin cancer. [04:14] Then it can also indirectly cause skin cancer by creating what are called reactive oxygen species, which are free radicals, basically. [04:23] So it energizes these atoms that start to steal electrons from other atoms and cause a little chain reaction, which is what a free radical is.

So ultraviolet light can increase your free radicals. [04:36] and it can directly damage [04:38] DNA. [04:39] So that's why it can cause skin cancer. So it was basically learning that one fact back in the 40s and 50s, [04:46] that made scientists start to say, uh-oh, [04:50] Light skin cancer. [04:52] Maybe we should think about how much sun we're getting. But this wasn't universally accepted, right? There were some people that even back then thought that sun exposure was very healthy for you. Like when did we figure out that sun causes the body to produce vitamin D?

Yeah, that was an important part. And it's a big part of the story, I think, because that was really back in the 20s that we figured that out. [05:13] And then even a little earlier, we realized that, um, [05:16] sunlight could prevent rickets. [05:19] Rickets? Yeah, so Rickets is a soft bone disease. [05:24] get enough calcium in your bones when you're a kid, when you're a baby, [05:28] You get soft bones. You get rickets. [05:31] really bad disease. And in the Industrial Revolution, kids started getting rickets, started getting rickets, [05:37] Farm kids never got rickets.

Then suddenly kids are working in factories. They're living in cities that are choked with coal smog. [05:46] They're living in tenement buildings. They're never seeing the sun and they all start getting rickets and [05:50] late 1800s. Is nutrition a factor in that? [05:53] Vitamin D. It was all vitamin D. At first they thought maybe it was vitamin A, but it turned out that was how vitamin D was discovered. [06:02] was some doctors figured out that [06:05] it could solve rickets in kids. And then they figured out, [06:08] that if sun hit skin, that's how we made vitamin D.

[06:12] How did they figure that out? They tested some tests on dogs. Actually, one of the guys figured it out. He had a hunch that that's what it was. They noticed that kids in the country wouldn't get rickets and kids in the city did get rickets. So like, I wonder if it's sunlight. So then a guy... [06:36] took dogs. [06:38] And this is, I think, Scotland. [06:40] stuck them in a [06:43] They actually thought it was dietary. He stuck them inside in this like little like warehouse and fed them oatmeal, which is what everyone in Scotland ate at the time.

[06:51] and [06:52] The dog's got rickets. [06:54] And he thought it was the oatmeal. He's like, okay, so something about diet, but then... [06:59] He got lucky because he had deprived the dogs of sunlight, and that's why they got rickets. So then eventually... [07:07] they realized that [07:09] um, [07:10] light hitting [07:12] cholesterol molecules in the skin actually converts the molecules to vitamin D. So vitamin D is like downstream of cholesterol, but it takes that same ultraviolet light that can screw up your DNA. [07:25] it actually breaks a bond in the cholesterol molecule.

[07:29] which allows it, it gives it some movement, and it flips around into a new form that's vitamin D. [07:35] So once I figure that out, [07:36] Then they're like, [07:38] Sun's really good for you. So we had this era in like the 20s, 30s and into the 40s. [07:42] when everyone thought sun would cure everything. [07:45] And they went after it hard. Really? [07:49] Yeah. Like they, [07:51] Parents would send their kids up into the Alps in like the 20s to institutes for heliotherapy. Kids would ski around in their underwear, take classes in their underwear.

There's awesome photos from this era. Like the instructors are in their underwear in the mountains outside in Switzerland teaching the kids. [08:08] And everyone looks really healthy, right? So... [08:11] There's kind of like this idea that [08:12] you couldn't get too much light. So people are literally burning themselves on purpose for help. This episode is brought to you by Zip Recruiter. We all like to find ways to save ourselves some time, like ordering out for dinner or meal prepping so you don't have to cook during the week. If you're a business owner looking to hire, a great time-saving hack is Zip Recruiter.

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[09:27] Find out. Tap to listen now to Snap Judgment from KQED on Spotify. [09:40] Is that the issue? Is burning a giant part of the issue? Yeah. So to give it away, now it looks like – [09:47] For melanoma, which is the most dangerous type of skin cancer, it's... [09:51] associated with burning strongly, but not with, like, gentle, moderate, everyday sun exposure. So how much of a factor is skin type, like people that are pale or have freckles and red hair, blonde hair? Like, how much of a factor is that in skin cancer?

And can they mitigate that by, like, gentle skin? [10:15] slow exposure, like a little bit here, a little bit there, and slowly build up. [10:20] Yeah, huge. Like, skin type is kind of everything. People who have really dark skin... [10:24] Basically, don't get sun-induced skin cancer. Almost never. [10:28] and [10:30] the uh... you know the authorities [10:33] don't tend to talk about that because they want things to be, they want to have like these one size fits all recommendations. But those recommendations to basically always avoid the sun, [10:41] are written for [10:42] the super fair people, especially if you have red hair.

[10:46] orange freckles, then you actually have a mutation in your melanin gene that makes you super susceptible to skin cancer from sunlight. So if you've got... [10:57] If you've got that phenotype, lots of moles... [11:00] Red hair. [11:01] Freckles. [11:02] You do have to be really careful. And you can only do so much. Like, you're not going to tan that much. [11:09] Anyway. [11:10] your melon is just different. [11:12] Everybody else. [11:13] Yeah, you're much less susceptible and you can tan [11:19] You know, you can make more melanin pretty easily through tanning.

[11:21] I wonder... [11:23] What, if any, effect? Have you ever heard of that? I can't remember the name of the peptide, but there's a peptide that people are taking now that causes their body to generate melanin, and they get really dark. Yeah, yeah. [11:37] Yeah. It's really weird. Yeah, and I don't know what's going on there exactly. It seems like that peptide is maybe making you... [11:48] make your skin super sensitive, [11:51] Like you just absorb solar radiation really well then, but [11:55] not necessarily in a good way. And that can make you make tons of melanin to try to compensate.

So I wonder, that peptide might be triggering [12:03] melanin [12:05] as a compensation mechanism, [12:07] for extra protection from sunlight. [12:09] Or maybe it's just making melanin happen, like, independently of the night. Did you put it into perplexity? All right, here it is. Um... [12:16] Melanotan, synthetic peptide analog of the naturally occurring hormone amelanocyte, stimulating hormone, stimulates the body's melanocytes to produce melanin resulting in a dark tan. It's largely unregulated, illegal in many regions for cosmetic purposes. [12:43] and carry significant health risks or what's the risks uh it's not approved by the fda [12:49] for cosmetic use and unregulated market means purity.

Okay, but that's unregulated. [12:54] Notable risks include dermatological issues, rapid and uneven darkening of existing moles, the emergence of new moles, and hyperpigmentation, concerns that could mask or accelerate the development of melanoma, [13:06]. [13:07] What is this? Potentially damaging erections. What? Why the erections? Oh, that's right. This apparently gives people raging erections. Why? Prolonged, painful, and potentially damaging erections. Damaging. Imagine you get an erection that goes so hard you redline the penis. [13:28] Medical and dermatological organizations strongly advise against the use of melanotan [13:37] Proved, there are no clinically established safe dosages.

[13:41] Well, weird, because that, so alpha MSH, the thing that it is mimicking, is that's how your body makes melanin. That's how your body's supposed to do it. You got to see the before and afters because they're kind of bonkers. [13:54] I've seen some people get super, well, the problem is it's Instagram. You never know what's real. That guy got a little tan. Let's see if there's any. Okay, look how pale that. See, but that's not. [14:06] How do we know if that's real? It's just like there's a light on them.

[14:08] Right. And then he's in a fucking dark closet in the last picture. That's the best before and after photos I've seen. Is there that one right there? The low? No, the one. Yeah, that one. Look at that guy. [14:21] Well, you know, it's a look. It's an interesting look. He injected himself with unregulated tanning peptide melanotan 2. Click on that. Seems like a joke a little bit. No, no, this guy. This is the guy that I saw online. This guy's he's the test rabbit. [14:38] Thank you. [14:39] This dude went hard.

[14:40] Did he get an erection too? [14:43] Yeah, he died from that. I don't know. [14:46] So his before and afters. [14:49] So let's see what is... [14:51] He just, okay. [14:54] Yeah, he just got darker and darker and darker. But I wonder if, like... [14:58] I understand that it's unregulated, but if it was regulated and this is something they're trying to work with right now with peptides and make them – see, the photo is dark though. I mean that's like a shitty iPhone 1 camera. [15:13] That's crazy. This is nuts.

[15:17] Thank you. [15:18] There's something going on there. [15:19] Like, you know what it looks like? It looks like those bodybuilder guys who use that ink, that dye on their skin to make themselves darker so their muscles pop out more. So here's better. Tanning log photos. These are better photos. [15:33] That's crazy. [15:35] But I wonder if that offers skin protection. It would definitely offer skin protection. I mean, if it's melanin, it's definitely... I mean, that guy can probably... [15:45] be outside all day. Yeah. So that's the question. Is that available to someone who's pale?

[15:51] And if someone is pale, see if you can find an example of someone who's pale who took it. [15:59] Because you would think like, oh, well, maybe that maybe just we need to do studies and figure out what the dosage is and figure out how to activate that aspect of it. [16:07] melanin clearly protects you from skin cancer. Like, if you have super dark skin, like, you know, African ancestry... [16:16] you're blocking, like your melanin is absorbing like 97, 98% of the UV rays. It's super effective. But didn't Bob Marley die from skin cancer?

He did. That's pretty crazy. Okay, this is one. [16:29] Wow. [16:30] It looks like the same person. [16:33] Hard to tell without the fish. Same mold. Yeah, it looks like the same mold. [16:37] That looks... [16:38] pretty good. [16:40] But I would just also wouldn't if you were trying to sell some of this stuff and maybe nefarious ways, this would be an easy one to market. [16:47] Tough. [16:49] and you know [16:50] Definitely. [16:51] Look, this is part of the unregulated market problem. [16:54] We don't know. And also, you know, you're getting 99 percent bro science on this stuff.

You know, like what screams bro science screams it from the top of the hills. [17:08] What legitimate scientist is out there injecting himself with melanotan? [17:13] But the other thing is, if you do it naturally, right, if you just get a little sun every day and slowly build up, you're not just making melanin. You're also... [17:20] increasing your body's damage repair system like you have all these like nucleotide excision repair things that fix your dna and fix cells that have gotten screwed up [17:30] and [17:32] that will also ramp up.

[17:33] every day. And it's not just sunlight, like exercise, same thing. Like anything that [17:40] that like [17:41] stresses the body a little bit. It's like hormesis, right? So all those things are going to cause your damage repair system to crank up. [17:48] and be ready. So, [17:50] You could probably want those to, like the melanin and the damage repair to... [17:54] to like go up together. Right. So you would want to, if, if let's say studies were done, let's say we found what the effective and safe dose is and how to administer it.

You would want to do it along with sun exposure slowly to try to ramp up your body's ability. I had a note on this. Uh, this happened 14 years ago. [18:14] Wow. Which is strange. [18:16] Here's some of the side effects he said, but he also said he's pretty much impervious to UV at this point. Increased libido. Didn't see that one much either. He said he didn't get it. [18:26] Okay, sides are decreased appetite, very mild nausea, more for some, none for me, decreased libido, increased libido. He said it didn't see that one much either.

Some get facial flushing like a niacin dose, never got that either. And the most strange thing is that it feels really good to stretch, like when you first wake up. Interesting. [18:46] Huh. [18:48] Um... [18:50] Did you do it for the skin coloring? Yes, I did it for the skin coloring. I'm pretty much impervious to UV at this point. I have faded about 25% since returning from Florida January 35th. We'll be dosing again probably in March. Is this guy still alive? That's my question. 14 years. What is that? Click on that link where his profile.

Okay. [19:09] Let's see if Homeboy's alive. Let's see where this takes us. Right. He's not. Is this Reddit? It's a year ago. He's commenting. I never did it subtle. [19:19] Okay, so a year ago he's still alive, or someone has taken over his account. [19:25] In theory, you could use an old-school quartz tanning lamp. [19:28] You could tan with it. And he's in a weird Reddit there, so we've got to stop looking. Why? I mean, this is not for the show, but he's in a weird... [19:36] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. That's why I was afraid to go that way. That's a problem. Well, only crazy people are willing to try something like that. Do you remember that there was a guy, God, I think it was on Oprah or one of those shows, where he was taking – [19:52] Was it... [19:53] Silver. Yeah, colloidal silver. That's right, colloidal silver. And his whole skin turned blue permanently like a Smurf. Yeah. Poor guy. Yeah. And he wound up dying. [20:04] Yeah. And how did it kill him? I don't know if it killed him, but I believe he died young.

That's homeboy. Not good. Yeah. [20:13] Yeah. That's just not a good look. You would think you'd start turning a little blue and you'd go, hey, maybe I need to back off this colloidal silver. Poffice Wharf dies. Yeah. [20:24] I mean, what the fuck, dude? [20:26] Thank you. [20:27] That guy, I mean, maybe he could have gotten some melanotan and evened that out. [20:31] It's just been a nice... [20:32] Chocolate. [20:33] You know, like a bluish chocolate. [20:36] I mean, he looks delicious. I'll say that. Yeah, this is our griot. [20:42] are [20:43] Argyria?

Argyria, the rare disease that turns people... [20:46] Blue. Caused by a buildup of silver in the body, which discolors the skin. Wow. [20:52] Thank you. [20:53] 2013. [20:55] He died from unrelated causes. [20:58] Whatever that means. [21:00] I mean, anybody's taking that much colloidal silver, you're probably making a lot of other mistakes. I mean, yeah. You're a risky dude. [21:06] There's so many options. This episode is brought to you by Ketone IQ. [21:13] Here's something cool. Ketone IQ is giving five lucky listeners the chance to win custom autographed gloves signed by John Bones Jones, the GOAT, the absolute legend of MMA.

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[22:03] Signed by Ketone IQ co-owner John Bones Jones and gold medal wrestler Gable Stevenson. [22:12] So go to com/rogan today, claim 30% off your first order, and enter to win some autographed gloves. Back to Bob Marley. He did die of skin cancer, and that confuses a lot of people. So he had melanoma on his toe, and that was a kind of... [22:33] melanoma that's not caused [22:35] By the sun. [22:36] And everybody gets it, no matter, you know, what race you are, everybody gets it at [22:41] at the same rate, which is quite uncommon.

They know it's not caused by the sun. [22:48] but [22:50] it complicates things for people because people are like, [22:53] I got melanoma on my toe and they think it's from the sun. And they're like, how did that happen? Right? Uh, like, [22:59] what's melanoma doing on there? But so... [23:02] Not all melanomas are... [23:05] caused by the sun. [23:08] There's... [23:09] you know, most probably are, but it gets really weird with melanoma. Um, it's, [23:15] associated with burning with like intermittent sun exposure. Like you work in an office all year and then you go to Cancun and get fried.

That's a pretty good recipe for melanoma. Um, [23:26] History of sunburns also will double your risk. [23:29] Chronic exposure where you have an outdoor job every day and [23:33] Lower than average risk of melanoma. Really? Yeah, so it gets weird. Like landscapers. Landscapers have... Outdoor workers have fewer... [23:40] have a lower incidence of melanoma than office workers. [23:43] Wow. And we don't hear that. No, no. I mean, I was looking at Instagram the other day and some poor guy had this – [23:55] I don't know what happened to his face, but he had some sort of skin cancer, and they had to take a graft, and it was on his nose, so it was like a flap of skin was almost covering over his eye.

And his message was, wear sunscreen. This is what happened to me. Well, so, I mean, yeah. So I don't want to downplay skin cancer because it sucks when you get it. They have to cut off a hunk of your ear or something. That definitely sucks. Even if it's not life-threatening, it sucks. Yeah. So... [24:24] But that's generally from overexposure. [24:30] Burning. Burning. All the experts I've spoken with said don't burn. Right. Burning is the one that people always say that it's not just burning. It's burning causes damage that starts to appear years later.

[24:43] Yeah, and they're dialing in on that more and more. It can start [24:47] Like burns during childhood is actually the highest association for melanoma. Really? Don't burn when you're a kid so we're all screwed. Oh, that sucks. That sucks because I fucking cooked myself as a kid. Same here. I grew up in Florida. Fried, you know. Well, when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s, you know, you wanted to get a tan, especially when I lived in Boston. It was cold as shit in the winter when it got warm.

You know, you're a Vermont car. Yeah. You got out there like, ah, put baby oil on. We fried. Totally. [25:17] those Johnson baby oil ads from like the 60s and 70s. Oh my God. [25:21] Yeah, it was basically cooking lube. Totally. Yeah, it just helped you cook better. But you remember George Hamilton, like the actor, Mr. Tan? Yeah. He was all about that. Just the other day, I was like... [25:35] How's he doing? [25:36] 87 and ridiculously healthy right now. Really? Yeah, he's going strong. Yeah, I met that guy. He did an episode of News Radio once.

Yeah, he was tan as fuck. [25:45] Yeah, that was his thing. That was his thing. It became, yeah, what he was known for. And he's still going. So he's still tan? Yeah, you should see him. He looks great. What does he look like? Pull a photo of George Hamilton. [25:57] I mean, great for an 87-year-old. Yeah. Look at him. Still tan. Yeah. [26:01] How does he... And a shiny. What a weird thing to be known for. [26:05] He's the guy who gets tan. You know what I'm saying? I mean, try to remember a role that he played.

[26:13] That's true. I think he was Dracula in some bad 1970s comedy. [26:18] Look at that. That's a tan right there. Right. So how was he getting it, though? Like, I remember when I was a kid in Boston, a lot of people used tanning beds, especially in the wintertime. [26:28] And they still do. Those are actually on the rise. And they seem to raise your risk of melanoma for sure. There you go. That's how we did it. Ah, look. He's got a reflectotan... [26:38] thing. [26:39] So he's just out there getting sunlight all the time.

[26:42] And he didn't look bad. [26:44] That's, you know, that's a weird one, right? [26:49] He claims he's never had skin cancer, I think. Well, he probably was doing it so often. [26:54] that his body was prepared for it, right? Look at that photo of him with that lady. [26:58] In the corner. Yeah, look at that. [27:01] That's nuts. See, that's the thing. I think... [27:05] like [27:06] If you're getting that regular dosage, your body is producing all of these compounds whose entire job is to make sure your cells don't turn cancerous.

Because, you know. [27:17] Living Things have been working on this for... [27:20] 500 million years. They get hammered by the sun every day and they've got to deal with it. It seems like [27:28] when your skin is totally unprepared. [27:31] and you shock it with a massive dose that it's not ready for. [27:37] then you're in trouble. That's the kind of thing that triggers trouble. [27:41] Was there any pushback on this research? Like when you first started... [27:46] examining this and realizing that sun exposure has a lot of benefits. Were any dermatologists saying, hey, this is dangerous information, you shouldn't say this?

Hell yeah. I've been denounced multiple times by the American Academy of Dermatology, like officially. They send an official letter when I write an article and they say... [28:04] Thank you. [28:05] Nobody should be getting any sun exposure. [28:08] That's their opinion. No one should be getting any sun exposure, regardless of the benefits, the vitamin D. No sun exposure without protection from either sunscreen or clothing. Wow. And if that makes you vitamin D deficient, take a pill. So that's what needs to change. [28:27] Because those pills haven't panned out in tests.

They don't work like Natural D does for whatever reason. [28:32] Really? Yeah, they don't work at all. What do you mean? [28:37] Everyone thought, like back in the 80s, 90s, everyone started noticing, scientists started noticing that people who naturally had... [28:46] lower [28:47] amounts of vitamin D in their blood. [28:49] had [28:50] higher rates of all like the classic chronic diseases. So I started thinking, okay, vitamin D, it's like magic, [28:56] pill almost. It'll cure, it'll reduce everyone's risk of all these diseases if we raise their rates of D. So they started recommending vitamin D pills, which I think are still like the number one supplement in the world.

I take it. [29:08] uh... [29:09] So then they did all these clinical trials to prove that it would help. [29:13] Huge, huge clinical trials, tens of thousands of people, follow-ups that went for many years. [29:19] none of them showed a benefit. [29:21] No benefit in terms of your immune response? No benefit for it. [29:25] Any condition. Now, did they take vitamin D along with vitamin K2 and with magnesium? Because that's what's recommended. So I don't – I mean there are a bunch of different – Apparently vitamin D by itself is not effective.

You need vitamin D with K2 and magnesium, and I think there might be another one. [29:44] See, put that into perplexity, please. [29:47] See what it says, like, what are the benefits of vitamin D and what should it be taken with? Because I think magnesium and K2 are the big ones. And that together they have a sort of a synergistic effect. Yeah, that – [30:00] That could be. Like, yeah, I'd be curious. Yeah, I think vitamin D by itself, the body has a problem absorbing it. It's like there's a lot of things like that.

Like zinc is like that. You need an ionophore to absorb zinc, so you take it with quercetin. Yeah. [30:14] Well, one thing, D, you know, the way it naturally comes into the skin, and it comes in with a whole bunch of related compounds. Right. And so, yeah, I do think there's sort of a synergistic effect when it's combined with the right things. But D from the sun has always been known as the best way to get it. For sure. Like the best way to get vitamin D, the most effective, the healthiest way, is through sun exposure.

Yeah. Like that's how the design is supposed to work. Perplexity says vitamin D helps your body absorb calcium, builds strong bones and teeth, support muscles and nerves, plays a key role in immune function. [30:44] It contains some fat and often paired with calcium for bone health. [30:50] Um... [30:51] So please put in what are the benefits of vitamin D taken with K2 and magnesium? [30:59] See if it says that. [31:00] Because this is what my doctor, who is a vitamin specialist. [31:06] recommends. [31:08] benefits when taken with K2 and magnesium.

[31:15] Okay. Taking vitamin D together with vitamin K2 and magnesium can make each of them work more effectively, especially for bones and heart, as long as the doses are appropriate for you. The trio mainly improves how your body handles calcium. Interesting. D helps you absorb it. Magnesium helps activate D and K2 helps send calcium into bones instead of arteries. Okay. [31:41] D increases calcium absorption from your gut and supports bone, muscle, and immune function. Magnesium required to activate vitamin D. Low magnesium can blunt vitamin D's effect and also directly support bone structure and many enzymes.

K2 activates proteins that move calcium into bones and teeth and keep it out of the arteries and soft tissues, helping bone and cardiovascular health. [32:05] Potential benefits of the combo, better bone support, heart and artery protection, more efficient vitamin D use. [32:14] Okay. [32:15] So. [32:16] the doctor is correct. So maybe that's the problem, is that these people were taking it with low magnesium, low calcium... [32:25] Didn't have K2. Yeah. I'd be curious if – [32:30] there was an effect on disease incidents for that combination. I don't know. Because the D on its own, yeah, it didn't show...

[32:39] effect. But sun exposure. Let's put that in. Does vitamin D taken on its own have any health benefits? [32:48] Let's see what it says to that. [32:49] Because I'd never heard that, that D on its own was not effective at all. I just heard that it was minimally effective, that you had to take it with other... It seems like it only helps people who have... [33:00] who are really deficient. Like if you're super low, like below like 60 nanograms per milliliter, [33:06] then probably it's a good idea. But, like, for people who already had, like, at least 20 nanograms per milliliter, it didn't seem to have any of these benefits that they were seeing in people who naturally had high rates.

I'll answer it the way you're looking for it. It says, yes, vitamin D on its own has several well-proven health benefits, especially for bones, muscles, and immunity. Just like a general answer here. [33:25] Huh. [33:27] bone strength and fracture prevention, muscle function, adequate... [33:33] What's that? I didn't. I missed the word own. Taken on it. [33:36] On its own. [33:38] I'll try why the answer was weird. [33:40] That's all it's saying. [33:42] Yes, as clear, proven benefits, especially for bones, muscles, and correcting deficiency. Yeah, so that's going to be for people who have super low levels?

Mm-hmm. [33:51] Preventing rickets. There it is. Yeah. So they had thought that it might reduce incidence of all these other diseases based on what they're seeing for people who naturally had high levels through sun exposure. Yeah. [34:03] And it didn't. So then... Wait a minute, people who had high levels through sun exposure. Yeah, because your natural level of vitamin D is sort of a direct meter of how much sun exposure. Right, but this is a natural level. You're not talking about supplementation. Right, right. Okay. So that was why people who...

[34:20] had high levels of D without supplementation, have lower rates of all, like every disease you can think of. Right. So the hope was that raising everyone's D to those levels... [34:30] would have the same effect. [34:32] And it didn't. Like New England Journal of Medicine did a... [34:35] I actually did an editorial in 2022 saying, stop prescribing D, it doesn't work. [34:42] God, that seems... [34:45] incorrect though because if you're taking it with magnesium and k2 it seems that they do work synergistically and there seems to be proven health benefits that one of the problems i think is like

[34:56] I think people generally – [34:59] want to avoid recommending supplementation for some reason. Mm-hmm. [35:06] It's kind of a weird thing. Like, they want to dismiss it. Like, I had a doctor once who told me, don't bother taking vitamins. Just eat a balanced diet. And I was like... [35:16] Look at you. Guy looked like shit. He didn't look as good as you, right? He looked terrible. Doctors, yeah, I'm amazed how... [35:23] poor what poor health they generally like seem to i can't take it i mean it's so hard to take seriously a guy with a gut when well just he looked terrible yeah and he was telling me that i just need a healthy diet and i'm like okay i do have a healthy diet but also i feel different when i take vitamins and my blood work reflects that yeah i noticed that when i was i started going to all the conferences of the sun researchers and they're all in like the basements of hotels and [35:53] Those guys all are as pacey as it gets.

Like, do none of you guys, like, you know, practice what you preach? Really? How strange is it that human beings with all of our knowledge, with, I mean, obviously, there's much more to learn. We're still confused about how we interact with our environment. [36:10] Yeah, absolutely. 100%. With Sun, which seems to be like... [36:15] It's there. It's everywhere. It's like you're always in the sun in normal and in the normal world environment where you outside of cities and all that stuff. That's it seems like we would have an understanding of what happens when you're interacting with sun.

[36:30] Yeah, and light period, like light of all kinds. Like, it seems like there's the sense in biology that light didn't matter. It's like just ephemeral, which, you know, the quantum physicists 100 years ago, [36:42] understood that light and matter are just like two halves of the same coin, right? And that light [36:47] totally affects the behavior molecules. [36:49] we're made of molecules, light's gonna matter. So I actually think, like that's where I eventually got to with the book, I was like, [36:56] we need to think about our light diets and our lightscapes that we're surrounding ourselves with more seriously than we have.

Well, it seems like your work is based entirely on the data. [37:08] So what... [37:09] did these dermatologists have to say about the data if they're denouncing you and they're saying that, you know, this guy should not be listened to, the things you're saying are dangerous, like, but you're talking about data. So I don't understand how they can just make those flat statements like that. $47,000. That's what the average engine customer saves on business travel every year. That's a 26% savings, all with no booking fees, up to 70% off hotels, zero booking [37:39] to start total control find a hotel that meets your team's complex needs did we say no fees we did that's engine teams travel spend managed get started at

com savings right and what i think we just need to have a conversation about the data and you know there's no like right answer ahead of time but they don't uh like their job is to prevent skin cancer so [38:06] If that's your only job, [38:08] you're going to tell people stay out of the sunlight. Forever. Forever, right? And no one can call you on that. No one can say, hey, like, I got skin cancer. It's your fault. Right. But doesn't sun exposure improve cardiovascular health and lower blood pressure? And isn't cardiovascular disease a far more dangerous problem than skin cancer in terms of numbers?

It's number one, 20 million deaths a year, cardio. [38:32] So anything that moves the needle on that is... [38:35] awesome you know. [38:36] And it does. [38:37] And it seems to. Like all the studies show it does. [38:40] But they're all observational studies, right? You look at populations, you're like, oh, these people have more sun exposure, [38:46] Lower blood pressure, lower rates of cardiovascular disease. But then, you know. [38:51] The other side will say... [38:53] you know. [38:54] correlation does not prove causation. Like prove, show us that it's, you know, do your giant clinical study.

[39:01] where you stick half the people in the sunlight and they live longer. [39:04] Which is not going to happen. Right. Yeah. But it's like... [39:08] Are they willing to have a conversation with you? They're not willing to. They don't want to look outside of the sun, right? [39:15] And, uh... [39:17] skin cancer question. Like, they're not willing to entertain any of the other benefits that are outside of their field. [39:25] So there's gotta be somebody out there who can be the generalist, who can think about it holistically. [39:30] That seems so ignorant.

[39:32] It's this... [39:34] Data science now? Like, science is, you know, like a field of micro-specialties. Would you like some coffee? Yeah, I'll take a little. That looks good when you're pouring it. That was a very shiny press you've got there. Cheers, sir. Cheers. [39:50]. [39:50] Is coffee good for you? [39:51] Coffee is awesome. Coffee is shockingly good for you. Talk to me. Let's go. It is fucking crazy how good coffee is for you. I've been... [40:01] Startled by the power of the evidence. Yeah. I've read both. I've read It's Bad for You, and I dismissed it because I'm biased.

And I love coffee. [40:18] It just tastes too good. It feels too good. [40:22] I like it. But I've read a lot of benefits about it. I think it's the best possible supplement. Really? You think of it as a supplement? And I think it's all due to mitochondrial function. I think it makes your mitochondria just spin, you know? Yeah. [40:38] And is it particularly because of caffeine or coffee itself? Is it the coffee bean? You know, I mean, caffeine – [40:45] I think it's caffeine, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's other stuff in coffee that's contributing.

[40:49] because... [40:49] You know, like tea doesn't seem to quite like deliver the goods like like coffee does. No. [40:55] But caffeine is actually... [40:57] the plants are making it to kill bugs. Right. Right. Because it makes the bugs mitochondria run out of control and they basically like blow up. Um, [41:06] It does that to us, but we have these other, like, like... [41:09] governors that come in and slow down that ramp up. So we get the nice ramp up without the explosion. [41:15] So it's good. So it makes – you know, we produce –

[41:20] energy more efficiently. [41:22] with less wear and tear. [41:24] That's all I need to hear. [41:25] I'm in. I just love coffee. I'm not giving it up. But I've heard many people say that Michael Pollan had a really interesting anecdote. [41:35] laid off coffee for I think three or four months as an experiment. And then he had a cup of coffee and he said it was like taking a psychedelic. [41:43] He said, "I just felt so amazing." The effect was so profound. He said, "I really wanted to do it only that way, where I only take it very rarely."

But then I fell right back into my own ways. He went right back. Yeah. I remember that article. It was great. And also, he said, "None of the caffeine researchers touch the stuff." I'm like, "That's not good." But yeah, he went right back to it. And I think he's a... [42:10] Proud coffee drinker. Yeah, he is. He went right back to it. But so have you had any conversations with these dermatologists that are denouncing you? [42:20] No, but I'd like to actually. I think. Are they willing or have they avoided them?

[42:25] They have so far really avoided. They just say... [42:29] You know, we're not ready to look at any of that research. God, that's so weird. I think it's going to change. I think actually... [42:36] Thank you. [42:37] Like I said, I think light medicine is actually going to become... [42:41] very important in the next 10, 20 years. And dermatologists are kind of positioned to be, like, the leaders on that stuff because, like... [42:48] skin... [42:50] is the primary like interface with light for our bodies. And, you know, they should be experts on all this.

You know, red light therapy is a big thing now. And dermatologists are doing that. [43:00] even though the evidence isn't great for that. But I think there's probably something there. [43:05] But they should basically, [43:07] I think they need to be thinking more about [43:09] all these different wavelengths of light as healing modalities and how to [43:13] work them into [43:15] like regular like programs. I've talked about this before, so I apologize to anybody listening, but I've essentially completely stopped my macular degeneration with red light therapy. Wow. Yeah. Not just stopped it, but reversed it.

Like I don't need reading glasses anymore. [43:32] I've been using a red light bed for about two years now. And from the time I started using it, within about a month, I started seeing benefits. And so Gary Brekka was on the podcast and he explained it to me. And so I went out and bought one of these really expensive – it's like a tanning bed. This is a thing you lie in. And I do it three times a week for 20 minutes. So all over? [43:50] Yep. [43:51] Yeah. [44:11] Yeah, for sure.

And again, I think mitochondria are part of that answer. There's a guy at University College London, Glenn Jeffrey, who this is his whole field, optometry and red light. And he has shown in multiple different animals, including humans, that... [44:29] Red light improves mitochondrial function and improves vision. [44:34] Yeah, I mean, I'm 58. And for me to be 56 and saying I'm fucked, I had these fucking things everywhere. I had these all these reading glasses, I had them all over my house. I gotten up to three X. These are the cheap Amazon ones.

I had a nice pair, but I keep losing them. So I just went up and bought cheap ones. They seem to work. And it was just fine for looking at a computer, reading my emails, reading my phone. And I needed them to read my phone. I don't need them anymore. Like at all. [45:04] them anymore. My vision's not perfect. It's not as good as it was when I was 20, but it's way better than it was when I was 56. [45:12] And, yeah, I think – so the – [45:17] The mitochondria in the eyes have to fire faster than any mitochondria anywhere else in the body.

The eyes burn through energy. [45:25] like no other cells. 'Cause it's like, you know, it's kind of the toughest task. It's like, they gotta go super fast. So they, yeah, those mitochondria need to be [45:36] on top of their game, and it seems like red light. [45:39] benefits that in particular. It seems so closed-minded that these dermatologists aren't willing to say maybe we're looking at just insufficient amount of data, maybe we're looking at this wrong, maybe the whole thing is much more nuanced, and maybe there's benefits if it's done correctly.

I just don't understand why they're not... If there's all this data, which clearly you show in your book, that there's a tremendous amount of data, why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? [46:06] You know, like, so there's this, like, saying attributed to Max Planck, who's this, like, [46:11] quantum physicists, science advances one funeral at a time. I think we got to let the old guard die off a little bit. But I guarantee there's a young generation coming in who's gonna [46:23] be really interested in light and how they can use it.

Oh, certainly. Well, I think there's so many conversations available online now from actual researchers and people that have put in the time and put in the work and explored things from this position that like, hey, maybe the old guard are not correct. And the data seems to show that that's true. [46:43] Yeah, and it's fun. I mean, playing with light, it's super fun. So, like, this is a way you can, like, make your world a little bit richer is starting to think about this stuff. Well, it's also, like, don't you want to be informed?

And if there's – if we do understand that it has an effect on mitochondria, and there is all this evidence that red light seems to have some benefits, like – [47:03] I just don't understand how someone could be an expert in skin and ignore that. Well, I think that – and they won't object to the red. Some of them are using red light therapy because there's no risk of skin cancer for red. It's only the UV and maybe a little bit of the blue that – [47:20] contributes to skin cancer.

So it's the UV where they get a little wigged out. [47:26] Yeah, but... [47:27] But even that, it seems like there's – like in your book, you show there's a tremendous amount of data. There's health benefits to it. So I just don't understand. And that data is – it's coming from all different other fields like immunology, cardiology. So – [47:43] And, like, scientists are sort of increasingly, like, hesitant to trespass on their other domains. Right. You know, like, they're not going to walk across campus to the... [47:53] the other building anymore.

[47:55] Yeah. That needs to change. Yeah, we've had those discussions too with scientists that are super frustrated, especially when they try to get interdisciplinary information. [48:04] groups together to study one particular thing and everyone's resisting because they have their own work that they're working on they don't want to get involved and it's like guys this is what you're here for there's not a lot of scientists you got to do your job because like you're the only ones that are doing it there's [48:22] Without you guys, we're fucked. And if you're out there relying on old, insufficient data – [48:29] Or, you know, you have this very...

[48:31] small data set that shows that there's negative outcomes to sunlight. And so you just throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like you're doing the whole field a massive disservice. And the other part of it is that science, it's sort of very self-reinforcing. It's all grant-based, essentially. Like if you're a scientist, you want to do a study, you have to apply for a grant to get the money to do the study. And there's generally a handful of entities that are like handing out the grant money. And it's the old guys waiting to die.

[49:01] who are going to approve what they think is the truth. They're going to fund the study. [49:06] that fits with what they already know about the world. [49:10] kind of crazy system where the only way you can get money to do a study is [49:14] is if you're already telling them what they know. Right. Right. So it's very difficult to get funded to do something that goes against the grain. [49:20] Increasingly so. And that's a problem. [49:22] And so much of it is dependent upon the ego of the people that are at the top of the organization.

Ego is definitely part of it. It's a giant part of it because if they've based their entire career on telling you one thing that turns out to be incorrect, they're very reluctant to correct themselves. [49:37] Yeah, there's not just a – it's very rare to find the individual who's well-known in the field and is eager to self-correct, you know. So have you had any conversations with any of these dermatologists? Yeah. [49:50] No, but I'd love to. Not one... [49:52] That seems crazy. Have you reached out to any of them? I have.

I've reached out and I get the boilerplate. [49:58] Like, [50:00] We don't want anyone in the sun... [50:02] Take your D-pills. [50:03] It doesn't matter, and the one that really I think has got to change is the skin color question. [50:11] fine to go with the recommendations for avoiding sun for people with fair skin. [50:18] But for people with dark skin who have almost no risk from sun-induced skin cancer, [50:24] and can benefit hugely from... [50:27] like things that will lower blood pressure and lower cardiovascular disease. [50:32] Like, it seems like you're not being fair to those people.

Not only that, it makes you feel better. [50:36] which is very important just for sanity. [50:39] I mean, I think that gets underplayed. Like, mood and happiness is kind of the whole deal, right? Yeah. And there's just no question that sun exposure makes you happier. I spent a week with my friend Brian Callen and Steve Rinella in Alaska on Prince Edward's Island. And it rains there like 350 days a year. And we got rained on for the entire week. And then when I came back to,