#2515 - Chase Hughes

[00:00] Joe Rogan podcast check it out the Joe Rogan experience train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day. What's happening? How are you? [00:17] Good. [00:18] Been really good. [00:18] Just got into Austin last night. I watched these videos of you describing... [00:24] this intravenous DMT experience. [00:27] And the first thing I said is I need to talk to this guy about that. [00:30] Like, that seems like one of the most insane descriptions of anything that anybody's ever experienced. Yeah. [00:38] That I've ever seen online. [00:40] So tell me about this experience.

[00:43] So it's... [00:45] DMT. [00:47] And this guy makes it and they put it into a pump and it's like an anesthesia pump that you'd have in like an operating room. And [00:56] essentially they can adjust your [00:59] like milliliters per hour. [01:01] dose [01:03] Like they would use for anesthesia. [01:04] And [01:06] Like they launch you off. You're laying – the space is beautiful. They hold the space really well. [01:12] And they can. What do you mean by that? They hold the space really well. Like it's a beautiful space.

Like there's this amazing place where you lay down in the middle of the room. It's like on a really soft pillow thing. [01:23] and great music on, and it's very calm. And these people are just unbelievably calm and... [01:33] good human beings to take you through the experience. [01:39] The cool thing about this pump is that you can adjust your altitude. [01:43] So you could be in the middle of this and say, I need to go up more. I want to come down. If you need to take a pee break, they'll pull you down.

You kind of go onto the runway. [01:52] And then you go pee, and you come back, and you launch right back up as high as you want to go, as fast as you want to go. [01:58] So... [01:59] It's five and a half hours. [02:02] it. [02:04] And I did one pee break, but it is... [02:08] It's DMT. [02:09] And like... [02:10] The highest you can feel on DMT, like the most you can see on DMT, but it's five and a half hours of that. [02:17] Yes. [02:18] And the next time I go back, we're going to mix Alzheimer's drugs together.

[02:23] with this. Why? [02:26] uh, [02:27] But to see how much I can bring back to see if it improves like the retrieval, like because, you know, like when you when you're in the DMT space, you're like, I have access to all this stuff like, oh, my God, I wish I could bring this back. I want to bring this back so bad. Right. [02:41] It seems like we're protected from bringing it back. It does. [02:44] It does. Like a dream. Yeah. There's real similar comparisons to the dream state. [02:51] The dream state is very strange.

I've had profound dreams. [02:55] And [02:56] Or really bizarre dreams. And when I wake up, they're so crystal clear. And I go to take a pee. I have a cup of coffee. Yeah. I can't remember them anymore. I barely... [03:07] Barely can grip them. [03:08] They just slide through your fingers. It's like we... [03:12] There is a protective layer there. It seems like it has to be because if there's anything that you experienced in the regular conscious state that was that profound, you would remember it forever. [03:23] Yeah. [03:23] Just think of a great thing – [03:25] UFC fight this weekend.

I remember everything. Oh my god, it's so like drilled into my brain. [03:31] And that is like... [03:33] Nothing compared to a DMT experience. [03:36] Yeah. And it's it just seems like I've never met someone who's done DMT that would just call. Oh, yeah, it's a psychedelic. It's a hallucination. [03:45] I've never met anybody that's actually done it, and then we'll just go back and say, I hallucinated something. There's a few people that say that. I've actually read this one piece by this guy. I forget his discipline. I forget, but serious academic and his position after I think he did like 100 DMT trips, and his position was that this is all being concocted by your visual cortex and your brain and your imagination.

That was his position. [04:15] Why wouldn't you go to Walmart on a DMT trip then or Target? I don't think that's what – I just think – because it's very – [04:24] disorienting and you know you really should sit still but i think that there's contrarians no i mean like in the dmt space why don't you just see a target or a 7-eleven or something oh right right right i see what you're saying something that your imagination could concoct like a dream like in a dream you might be a target yeah and you you had on andrew gallimore yes i did and he talked about this world making part of our brain yes man that really hooked me in and during the six-hour journey

[04:54] whatever you want to call it. [04:55] um, [04:57] at the end of, I mean, it's DMT, like you're, [05:00] Like, it's just reality's gone. [05:03] Like you like everything. Oh, yeah. You see all the stuff that you think is real. [05:07] Goodbye. It's like everything's gone. And at the end of this, I on camera, I asked if I was dead 39 times. [05:16] I wasn't concerned with what the answer was. I just was like, am I dead? [05:21] um, [05:22] And [05:23] Coming toward the end of this experience, I...

[05:27] was bawling. I was crying. [05:29] and it just felt like I had to... [05:33] wrap myself in some kind of ego in order to just return back here. [05:38] To come back, there's no way for me to come back and not have some little ego connection [05:43] thing and it made me so sad. [05:48] coming back that I just didn't want to come back at all. [05:51] Thank you. [05:52] You know what I'm talking about? It's like Avatar Depression times a million. It really is. [05:59] For people who don't know what I'm talking about – [06:02] When the movie Avatar came out, it was so wonderful.

These people seemed like to live such a righteous, peaceful existence in the forest that people came back and they were depressed that they don't live in the Avatar world. [06:18] It was like a psychological condition that was – it was happening with so many different therapists that people started calling it. [06:26] Avatar Depression. [06:28] That's brilliant. It's got a name. Like in the 90s, there was the Truman Show Syndrome. Right, right, right, right. People got into that. But I mean, how badass is your fucking movie? [06:39] It creates a psychological condition in people that wish that reality was like your movie.

Yeah. [06:44] I love that. [06:45] It did feel like that. Times a million or whatever it is. [06:53] I didn't know happened was my wife was with me, Michelle. And the night before when we were at their house, they just said, you can pick a vial. And I said, let Michelle. [07:03] Pick a vial. And I was in the other room and Michelle was with this guy who makes the DMT. And he said, would you like to pray over this DMT? [07:14] And Michelle did that. And I didn't, I didn't even know she prayed over it.

And the next day, [07:18] And I'm not saying there's anything here, but... [07:21] When it started, the first thing that happened was like these alien beings or whatever – [07:26] kind of pinned me down on this table and ripped me open like... [07:30] from pelvis all the way up to my neck, like all the way open. And I could hear my organs kind of moving around inside my body and they're doing something in me. And the second thing was they pushed my head back up on the table and they this big drill bit went up inside of my nose, like all the way to the back of my head.

It didn't hurt. There's no pain or anything. [07:50] And they were doing that for probably 45 minutes. [07:52] A long time. And it was freezing cold. And then after this journey, I... [07:58] Told Michelle about this and she's like that's what I asked them to do I asked them to fix your heart and your brain so I have a heart thing going on and I have a brain disease Which is why I was doing this in the first place and [08:09] And that was the first thing that happened on the journey.

[08:13] I'm not saying there's causation. Did you get looked at afterwards to see if they did anything? [08:18] I haven't because they have to do a PET scan and it's so much radiation. Oh. It's like it's so much radiation I can't even hug or sleep with. [08:27] my wife or my [08:29] our two-year-old for like 48 hours. [08:33] It's a ton of radiation. Yeah, fuck that. What is the condition that you have? In the brain, I have mesial temporal sclerosis. Yeah, we talked about this the last time you were here.

Yeah, and I had a seizure like the night before. This is the thing that you said that methylene blue was really helping you with. You know how many people have ripped that out of our show and like made commercials for their – [08:54] their company and stuff out of it. Oh, I'm used to that. There's so many ads for me selling everything from coffee makers to hard-on pills. This episode is brought to you by Zip Recruiter. We all like to find ways to save ourselves some time, like ordering out for dinner or meal prepping so you don't have to cook during the week.

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Really? Yeah. [10:02] So [10:03] But I will say, just to go back to this dream thing you were talking about, the way that I get people to help understand this. I'll walk you through this really quick. Let's say you're in a dream right now. [10:16] And I'm just here in your dream. We're chilling out. [10:19] Hanging out. [10:20] And let's say you... [10:23] don't know it's a dream yet. And I look over and I say, like, what is that? [10:26] UFO spaceship over there. How far is that from your face right now?

And you look over at that? [10:32] Flying saucer thing. You'd be like, oh, it's eight feet or something like that. But then if you know it's a dream and I ask you how far is it, you're still going to say, oh, it's eight feet. [10:43] And then I ask, what is it made out of? You're going to say, oh, it's aluminum or. [10:47] whatever that thing's made out of. [10:49] But there's no aluminum in your brain. [10:52] Right. [10:52] And then I ask again, what is it made out of? [10:55] and [10:56] And eventually you'll get to a place where you say it's made out of me.

It's made out of consciousness. [11:02] Then I say, what is the distance? [11:04] made out of. That entire eight feet of distance is also made out of your consciousness. [11:09] And then I say, well, why did you have to manufacture eyeballs in your dream to see out of? [11:16] And then what are the photons? Like you're seeing colors and all this stuff in your dream. There's no photons bouncing off of stuff in your dream. The entire body is fabricated. Your eyes are fabricated. Like you're seeing all this stuff without your eyeballs at all.

[11:28] But you made up eyeballs to see it all through. And then the distance, like from you to that flying saucer, you say it's eight feet. The distance is zero. Like there's not eight feet inside of your brain. [11:39] So kind of walk people in to show that everything that you would do [11:43] Like not in a dream, like sitting here in the studio to prove that this pitcher of water is real. [11:49] You could do [11:50] identical. You could do everything in a dream. [11:53] that you would do in waking reality to prove that something is real.

[11:56] Thank you. [11:57] And then you realize that the distance between you and that thing is A, made up of consciousness, and B, doesn't exist. [12:07] Whoa. [12:09] Does that make sense? It does make sense. It does make sense because we assume that because we have tools to measure – [12:17] Distance and sound and touch and all those different senses that we possess. [12:23] that [12:24] This is what the world's made out of. Yeah. Yeah. [12:26] And it makes sense. So like, and there's dream logic, right? So like if you're all of a sudden riding on your rhinoceros to the pizza factory, you're like, oh, yeah, it's normal.

Right. Uh. [12:38] So if you look at like a galaxy, it matches the shape of DNA. If you look at the toroidal shape of like gravitational stuff, it matches the shape of a red blood cell. You look at an eyeball close up, it looks like a… [12:51] like a nebula. And if we just look at as above, so below, like any of that is even remotely true, then dreams might tell us more than we think about what's going on here. [13:03] in this, what we call reality. Have you ever seen the comparison between the universe itself and human neural tissue?

[13:12] No. [13:12] It's bananas. Is it like a – It's identical. An image? Yeah, it's like an image of the known universe. Yeah. [13:18] with an image of, is it a brain cell or a human neural cell? [13:23] I forget which one it was. But when you look at the two of them together, you're like, okay, is this whole thing a giant fractal inside of a fractal? If that's what infinity is. In infinity, we'd like to think that this is what it looks like. That's a brain cell, and that's the universe.

[13:40] Good lord. What the fuck? [13:42] I mean, gosh, it's the same thing. [13:45] So it's... [13:46] At least it looks like the same thing, right? [13:50] Um, [13:51] You know, when we think of infinity, we think of what we are here. [13:56] on earth [13:57] That there is no distance that you could travel where you find the end. [14:01] That the infinite universe just keeps going on. But it's way crazier than that. [14:06] It might be that the entire infinite universe that doesn't have an end... [14:11] is actually a part of a cell.

[14:13] that's in another being. [14:15] That's in an infinite universe that has no end. That's actually just a part of a cell. It's in a part of an infinite – and it goes on and on and on. And we have some evidence that that might be the case just in the weirdness of these supermassive black holes that are in the center of every galaxy. Right. [14:35] So these supermassive black – we had Michelle Fowler on the podcast the other day. Fascinating woman. She's – [14:42] and astrophysicists and just discussing all the strangeness of the universe, the more that we experience it, the more – the deeper they look, the crazier it is.

It's like the further the James Webb telescope goes out, the more shit that they find. They're like, what is going – what is that? How is that there? This is not supposed to be there. They think that – [15:02] There's a real possibility that inside every black hole is a completely new universe, that it's some sort of a passageway. So if there's hundreds of billions of galaxies just in the known universe and every one of those galaxies has a supermassive black hole inside of it, in the center of it, you go through that and you – [15:22] are in hundreds of billions of new galaxies, all with black holes.

And then you go into those fucking universes and you find creatures with brains and you get to their brain and their brain looks like a universe. And if you get closer and closer and closer, you might see hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with black holes inside their fucking brain cells. [15:46] That was well said. That needs to be a short. But it's infinite. So there's no end to that process. It's not like there's us and then we are a part of a brain cell of a creature. No, we're a part of a brain cell that's a part of a creature that's a part of a universe that's a part of a brain cell that's a creature that's a part of a universe.

And that's what real infinity is. There is no end. Yeah, I agree with that. [16:11] And we need less certainty about this shit. There's so many people who are like, oh, I have this figured out. What you said about coming back from the DMT trip, about how your ego tries to kind of reclaim reality for you, I think that is a genuine problem with human beings today in which they cling to ideologies, to political parties, to ethics, morals, religion, whatever it is, that they connect themselves to inseparably. [16:41] think part of that is just being afraid of the vastness of what this experience really is.

And the way to shield yourself from it is to pretend to be sure. [16:52] That's it. [16:53] Yeah, it just gives me a little blanket of I've got this figured out. I know what's happening. Yeah, a little security blanket. Yeah. [17:02] And it's – we need less certainty in the world. Yeah. We need more people to say as far as we know before they say some shit. Yeah. It sounds science-y. As far as we know. Why can't we just put that phrase – [17:14] in front of more things. If you're doing DMT, it just...

[17:20] or if anyone does DMT, maybe it's a hallucination. [17:23] But Terence McInnis described it so well when he said death by astonishment. [17:30] There's no words. The moment you try to label anything that you see in the DMT space, it's like you're destroying. It's an act of destruction almost. There's no words for it. They don't exist because words are sounds that we make with our face to describe known reality. [17:46] And there's no words for that experience. Yeah. And we invented language for trading chickens and spices and stuff. That's what language is for.

Yeah. And... [17:57] If you just look at like one little sciencey thing, like that's weird, like quantum entanglement. [18:03] And then somebody says, we can't explain how this is like faster than light or anything. Well, we can explain it if we go to a dream and then say the distance doesn't exist. Right. Distance isn't real. Right. Right. [18:15] So I think that's, I want to know about the UFC fight at the White House. To get away from Super Woo Woo for a second. It was insane. This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew.

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It seemed like it was in the 70s. And it was the storm. [19:41] like miraculously just passed us. [19:44] Like there was all these weather warnings at one point in time. The fight was supposed to start at 8 m. And at one point in time, one of the weather experts wanted us to start at 1030. [19:57] Yeah, because there were – 10.30 at night, which would have been a disaster. 10.30 at night would have been a disaster because it's a six-hour show. Yeah. You know, or close to it, whatever it is.

X8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 11. I guess it was five hours. [20:13] Somehow or another, the storm just almost like – [20:16] went around the White House. [20:19] I mean, I don't know... [20:20] I don't know what that is. I don't know if that's science or if that's consciousness. I don't know what steered the storm or if it's just random luck. It could have been all of the above. [20:32] all my fears of the weather getting in the way of the fights were... They were null. It didn't mean anything. And then there was this long...

[20:41] sort of ceremonial thing where they had jets fly over and, you know, they played music and all this different stuff. So by the time we got to the actual fights, [20:51] Dark out, perfect, perfect. [20:53] The weather was perfect. So that wasn't an issue at all. And it was just – [20:57] the [20:58] magnitude of the event. I know people saw it on television and looked insane, but the magnitude of the event being there live, so there's [21:08] The event that's taking place on the lawn of the White House, and that has 4,000-plus people.

The main event. Yes. Yeah. So the actual UFC. So there's – [21:19] There's a bunch of military guys that are standing up in the back. There's like 1,000 of those, and there's 3,000 plus that are seated. All these people are seated. But then – [21:30] Behind that, not that far, like 100 yards, 200 yards, whatever it is. I guess it's more than that. Maybe 300 yards. There's the ellipse. [21:39] The ellipse has 85,000 people who got in for free. [21:46] Yeah, it's like in the whole White House ecosphere, whatever it is.

Wow. Yeah, so this area, they have giant screens set up. [21:54] And they have huge speakers and sound. And so 85,000 fans are watching the fights live on the screens. And they can see the lights of the fucking this claw dome in the distance. And they can see the White House in the distance where the fights are taking place. But they're watching it on massive screens with commentary. And it was insane. And you could hear them roar. So you hear the crowd from here. [22:24] people. You can hear it in the distance.

[22:28] It was insane. [22:31] It was insane. Just the magnitude of it was insane. Unlike anything else you've ever done. Beyond. I mean – [22:38] I'm a hyperbolic individual, and I'm always like, this is the greatest. This is awesome. That was the wildest experience that I've ever had in my life. [22:49] 20 whatever years of calling combat sports. There's nothing even close. Nothing even close. It was the greatest night of fights of all time. And it was the only night in the history of the sport where every single fight ended by knockout.

[23:03] Did they all? Every single one. Seven fights. Seven fights. Every one of them ended by knockout. [23:11] Wow. Which never happens. Which is unprecedented. Unprecedented. Wow. It was like [23:16] The perfect experience for anybody that had never watched the UFC before to see it that way and... [23:22] at the White House like that. I mean, it was it was nuts. [23:26] A huge experience for the fans that got to be there in the Ellipse. And, I mean, I saw videos. These guys, they were having so much fun. And it's like everyone's in there for free.

You don't have to pay for the tickets. There's 85,000 people out there. They're all screaming and cheering, and the drinks are flowing. And it was wild. I mean, just absolutely wild. What a 250th. [23:47] Yeah. Wow. And it's a sport that was like banned just what, 15, 20 years ago or something? 20 plus years ago. So when the UFC, so when I first started working for the UFC was in 1997. And back then you had to watch it on DirecTV. I had DirecTV just because that was the only way to watch the UFC.

That's why I didn't have cable. And then Zufa purchased it. [24:17] and that's when I came aboard again. So I had quit in 98. I worked from 97 to 98 and then I quit and then they brought me back in 2001. And when... [24:28] That was going on. It was banned from cable. [24:31] And they slowly started working it back. They got it on Fox Sports Net, which was the first time I ever commentated for the UFC. That was UFC 37 and a half, a very special show that they put on for Fox Sports Net, try to introduce people to the sport.

And so that was the first time it was on cable again. And then they started getting pay-per-view buys and it started growing and gathering steam. But even back then – [24:56] Like – [24:57] It was like you were doing porn or something or snuff films or you were doing something that was damaging for your career. And people would look at you like, you're working for a cage fighting organization? Why would you do that? Cut to 25 years later. It's on the lawn of the White House. And it is one of the most watched sporting events in the history of the world.

I don't know what the total overall views are as of now. [25:28] Well over, I think it was 150 million just by Monday. [25:34] Unbelievable. Just by Monday. So that's like the night of and then people that watched the replay that weren't there when the fight took place because they heard about it. But now between now and – between then and now – [25:45] Now we're dealing with Tuesday. It's probably another 50 or 60 million people have watched it. [25:50] I bought Paramount Plus just to watch it. [25:53] On YouTube.

I'm sure. [25:55] I don't know, $13 or something that it was. [25:59] What a hell of an event. [26:01] Yeah, it was an amazing event. I wish I would have stayed up longer, but I watched the first few fights. It was fantastic. The main event was the greatest fight of all time. [26:09] It literally was the greatest fight of all time. [26:12] Because the guy that won it, Justin Gaethje, was in many books a 6-1 underdog, which is crazy odds for a guy that was an interim lightweight champion, fought the best of the best, one of the best to ever do it, BMF champion.

I mean just super durable, real dangerous guy. And that's how good Ilya Teporia is. That's how good Ilya Teporia is. [26:42] generation is the most skilled of all time. [26:44] And Elia was like the top of the mountain. [26:47] And most people thought that he was going to be too much, and he was too much for a while. And he almost took Justin out in the second round. And then Justin rallied. And then Ilya... [26:58] It looked like he got really damaged in either the first or the second round. He was having real trouble seeing out of one of his eyes.

And then Justin started landing bombs in the third round. Ilya had slowed down quite a bit. It looked like he had really tried to finish Justin in the second. And sometimes when you try to finish a guy, you just hit the gas way too much, and you can't recover in between rounds. And Justin recovered, and Justin started battering Ilya in the third and fourth. [27:28] on a stool. [27:30] He couldn't see out of either eye. He had gotten kneed into the body real bad when he was on the ground. Justin like literally – Justin had him down with his two hands and just smashed a knee into his ribcage and he could see him go like that.

That was the end of the round and then he had to retire on his stool. [27:49] You think he broke a rib? [27:51] That probably could have happened, but I think maybe more significantly was the eye damage. Both of his eyes were swollen shut. His nose was fucked up. He had taken so many punches to the face and it looked like perhaps orbital damage. Like maybe he had a fractured orbital because his whole thing had just swollen up on both sides. He's unrecognizable. And you know the guy hung in there as long as he could, but when you can't see you can't see and when you're you're that battered.

[28:19] Sometimes it's smart to stop, and he's a very smart guy, and I think you realize, like, there's – I can't defend myself right now. I can't see. This guy is smashing me. [28:30] It's called a day. This is what it is. Let's preserve my body and my brain and rebuild and come back another day. But for Justin, it was like one of the most epic things I've ever seen in my life. For him to win like that when everybody had counted him out, he was saying it was going to be his last fight.

It was like a retirement fight. 37 years old. He's been in the game forever. [28:49] fought a who's who of all-time greats in the sport, and this is going to be his last fight. [28:55] And he's like, what if I can win the title at the White House? What an ending to a career. And that's what everybody was saying. Like, yeah, but... [29:03] You're not going to because you're fighting Ilya Teporia. He was like, all right, we'll see. [29:08] Wow. And he pulled it off. [29:10] He pulled it – it was insane.

It was epic, absolutely epic. Yeah. [29:15] What do you think the mindset is between somebody who... [29:20] You know, you walk in as an underdog and wind up winning, even though your skills may not be more proficient than the other guy. What do you think the mental difference is between them? [29:27] Like somebody who loses or wins? Well, there's a lot of factors. One of the factors is that Justin has always been incredibly durable. [29:34] I mean it might just be a genetic thing. He even joked around about it. Like science needs to take a look at this hard-ass skin I have.

He very rarely gets cut at all. And he's like, I got these hard-ass bones and hard-ass skin. He was joking around like science needs to study this. And it's true though. I mean he really is insanely durable. He's been rocked and hurt before and he's been stopped in fights before. [30:04] But... [30:05] The guy is just – he has zero quit in him. It doesn't exist. Like if you're looking for quit, you go into a room, it's empty. The quit room has no one in it. There's nothing in there. He's not going to quit.

He can lose because he's a human, but he's not going to quit. And he's also been into the deep trenches before, the deep trenches of these five-round chaotic insane battles. And oddly, he thrives in those kind of battles. [30:35] violent man in the most violent sport. That's, we've all talked about him like that for years, since the moment he burst onto the scene when he fought Michael Johnson, in the UFC at least. He just, he's an extraordinary dude, just a very extraordinary dude. And not the most technically skilled, like Ilia looked technically better than him, but it didn't matter.

Justin found a way to land shots, found a way to like persevere from the early rounds where he was in real trouble. [31:05] And just... [31:06] Shocked the world. It was amazing. [31:09] One of the coolest things I've ever seen in my life. That's cool. It was fucking amazing. I wish I was there. Oh, my God. I talked a bunch of people into going. I didn't want to. Shane Gillis was thinking about not going. I'm like, bro, you got to go. It's going to be epic. It's going to be a once ever thing.

Not a once in a lifetime. Once in anybody's lifetime. It's never happened before. It's probably never going to happen again. Yeah. [31:28] Probably not. No. [31:30] Yeah, that's something you have to see and experience. Yeah. And so many people are trying to make it a partisan thing. Like they're mad at people for being there. Like, oh, you support Trump. It's a it's a fucking fight at the White House. Doesn't mean you endorse foreign policy. Like, shut the fuck up. That's too much. Just please stop. [31:48] And again, it's this thing, the ego thing, where people are just – they just want so badly and on both sides for sure.

The right celebrates this as a win for masculinity and patriotism and all these different things. It's like, OK, settle down. [32:03] Everybody settle down. We should all be together. And – [32:07] mean [32:07] One of the things that I wanted to do when we went to the White House to try to push through psychedelics for therapy for veterans and people – first responders, people struggling with PTSD – [32:20] is... [32:21] You need to take these steps to give people a path to change their mind. I think that's the title of Michael Pollan's book, and it's a great way to describe it.

Change your mind. Change your whole perspective. And there's no better way to change your whole perspective than a complete dissolving of your ego momentarily. [32:51] has when you let it back into your life. [32:54] Yeah, how much of these clothes do you want to put back on? Right. Right. I described it as like Control-Alt-Delete for your brain. [33:01] And then when your brain reboots, it has one folder, and that folder is just labeled my old bullshit. [33:07] And you have a decision to make. You go back into my old bullshit, and most people do at least a little.

I do a little. But for sure, you recognize that it's your old bullshit instead of thinking you are who you thought you were. Yeah. Yeah. [33:23] And it's a lot of stuff that didn't really belong to you. It's like we act like decorator crabs all throughout our lives. We're just kind of grabbing these little things. Yeah. And you realize that. And I think that. [33:36] We were just talking about this politics thing. I think separation is the... [33:41] number one greatest deception of all time the the biggest problem with the biggest problem that we have and the biggest deception that we have it's like we are separate and the one thing that you see and you do it some of the and i mean this therapeutically i don't mean you're like you're taking mushrooms and going to go into a concert um [33:59] It.

[34:01] When you do this therapeutic psychedelics, the first big realization you have is like, oh, shit. [34:08] This is all me. [34:09] Like we're all kind of connected. We might be one thing, but there's something here that's connecting all of us. [34:15] Yeah. [34:16] Whatever that is. Well, you want to call it consciousness or our souls are connected or something. [34:21] Yeah. There's something where we're connected that we're kind of denying for some strange reason. And I think that that's one of the reasons. [34:30] Um... [34:31] I think you maybe would agree that we're in a loneliness pandemic.

[34:36] right now. We have more rampant loneliness around the world than we've ever had before. And if you look at how this has evolved, I didn't know it was coffee. [34:46] What's in there, dog? [34:48] Thanks, man. [34:49] Gotcha. [34:50] So if you look at [34:52] Cheers, sir. Thank you, man. [34:54] Thank you. [34:56] If you look at this loneliness... [34:58] And people are you could stand in a room full of people and still feel lonely for so many people. The majority of the world right now is in this loneliness pandemic.

[35:10] So what's really going on? And this is my opinion. Feel free to. [35:13] Toss it. [35:15] We're in a place that's becoming more and more performative on a daily basis, just fake, artificial, let me say what people want to hear, let me act how people want to. [35:26] how I want to be perceived. Sure. And [35:29] Which means that if I'm even... [35:33] If I'm a little bit performative, no matter who it is, my best friends, they put their hand on my back and say, Chase, you're a great guy.

You're a good person. But in the back of my mind, I know that I'm performing. I know for a fact that probably not even my spouse has ever seen me. Right. They can't like me. They can't love me because that's not me. Right. [35:56] And I think this hyper performance world of, I don't mean performance, I mean like [36:01] Let me act out this thing. I'm going to I'm going to act a certain way. And because let's look at if you look at our ancestry, I had to worry about like you and I were maybe eight, nine years apart.

But when we were in elementary school or middle school, we did some stupid shit. We had to worry about 20 people making fun of us. [36:19] And now we've got to worry about 20 million. [36:22] And that is a... [36:23] That is an existential... [36:25] difference between those things. So we get better at hiding [36:29] shame. [36:30] and pretending like we don't have it. [36:32] And then what... [36:34] Now going back to separation, now this is what I call the disease of specialness. [36:40] of I am special, which means I'm the only one here pretending and everybody else has got their shit figured out.

[36:46] And then that isolates you even further. [36:48] And not realizing that everyone... [36:51] has this. Everyone has this little [36:54] crap going on and like it [36:57] The fear that people feel like if I just be real, then I'm going to get made fun of. I'm going to get rejected. I'm going to be kicked out of the tribe. It's not real. [37:05] It's not real, but it can be real depending upon your circumstances. So if you are in a very enclosed ideological tribe and there's no – [37:17] There's no tolerance for any deviation from whatever the narrative is.

Yeah. This is a real problem with social media. [37:25] This is a real problem that wasn't like that. I mean, I know I'm like one of those old people that's like back of my day. But when I was young, you were allowed to have different opinions. [37:39] It was normal. I had friends that were conservative, and I would make fun of them, and they would make fun of me. And it was normal. Like you kept those friends because no one was telling you to get rid of those friends. There was no pressure to be a part of a group.

There was no silence is violence bullshit. There was a bunch of people that thought differently, and you talked about stuff. And we weren't as informed. That's a fact. We didn't know as much about how the world works. That's a fact. [38:08] But now that we do, one of the things that we should all be acutely aware of with us spending so much time interacting with each other online is that a lot of the people that you're interacting with are not real. [38:21] and not a small number if you are on X [38:24] It is.

[38:25] Look, there was an FBI analyst that he – [38:29] What do you mean not real? They're bots. [38:32] Like an actual not human. [38:34] AI bots. Okay. AI bots is a big percentage, and then there's actual humans who work for organizations that push narratives. You can hire an organization to push a certain narrative. Okay. [38:47] You can hire them to support you or you can hire them to attack your enemies. You can hire companies that will – [38:56] artificially create a movement of people that agree that this person is a bad person, that this project is a bad project, that this is a good idea, that he's a good person, that he's a good – this is a good politician, whatever it is.

So it's – you're not dealing with genuine thought. You're dealing with bullshit. And here's where it gets really weird. [39:17] Thank you. [39:17] I think it's natural. [39:19] And I think – [39:20] Everything is nature. And I think this idea that this artificial communication that we've developed through social media is what's really fucking everybody up. I don't think that's the case. I think this is a natural progression of nature. The idea that our stupid fucking creativity and intuition and creativity. [39:38] technological ingenuity, it can bypass nature, I think is horseshit.

It is nature. It is nature. Yeah. And I think nature – [39:45] is creating this... [39:48] convergence [39:49] It's creating this very bizarre... [39:53] convergence of humans and artificial intelligence through – [39:58] a bunch of ways that are unproductive and a bunch of ways that are productive, but all of it like gathering together in a device that's like [40:06] almost impossible to resist. If there was anything else that you use six hours a day or eight hours, if you're a good person, if you're good with it, like a lot of kids are on seven, eight, nine hours a day.

Like, if there's anything else like that, you would think that person's got a horrible addiction. But for us, we've accepted it as a normal part of society. And that is... [40:26] Whatever that interaction with it that we have, that deep connection we have is only going to get deeper. And it's ultimately going to lead to some sort of hive mind. And it will probably not be a hive human mind anymore. [40:43] only [40:44] I think it will be a human AI hive mind. [40:49] And I think [40:51] One of the things that's happening to us is there's this weird, like, movement to – [40:59] This is a weird movement to discredit [41:02] traditional femininity and traditional masculinity.

And there's this bizarre over celebration of outliers of weird gender people, of people that are confused with their gender. And I think that's because if you play that out, this is a new thing. [41:20] Again, I'm an old man. But when I was a young guy, there was cross-dressers. There was guys that got off on wearing women's clothes. There was always stuff like that. There's always been people with gender dysphoria. But there was never like this. And this is also coming at a time where microplastics are disrupting our endocrine systems.

Big time. Big time. So testosterone levels are dropping. We're like, oh, my God, it's a crisis. What do we do about it? It's natural. It's natural. [41:48] Our use of plastic is probably natural. It's probably all somehow or another connected to take us out of our territorial primate bodies and move us into some new stage of existence. Like some post-biological. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. I think it's inevitable. [42:07] And I'm not fighting it. Does Elon agree with that? [42:09] Like we're moving toward that direction. Well, he most certainly thinks that we are moving into a direction where we converge.

And, I mean, he said about this is what – I mean, the dude's literally cutting holes in people's heads and shoving fucking circuits in there. Yeah. And doing a lot of wild shit with it. I mean, people are using their eyes like aim bots. And a paralyzed gentleman that we had on the podcast was the first Neuralink patient. I'll watch that. Yeah. [42:36] He said it's like a cheat code because where he looks, that's where the cursor goes, and he just shoots people. He's shooting people with his mind. Like Fortnite on a video game or something?

Yeah, he's playing video games with his mind, and he's excellent at it. Well, you've got to think, well, eventually you'll be able to move your body that way, and then eventually you'll have all sorts of other tools that didn't exist before. And one of the things that Elon has famously said is you're going to be able to talk without words. [43:03] That's the hive mind. [43:04] We're moving towards that. [43:06] And this gets us into all this weird UAP shit. Like, what are these aliens? What are these experiences that people are having?

Like, is this all a mass hallucination? Is it us from the future? Is it us from the past? Is it another species that's far more advanced than us that's come down here to monitor us and shepherd us through our very difficult time? Whatever it is, they seem to be what we're going to be if we keep going in this direction. [43:33] Our brains are far larger than monkeys. Yeah. Our bodies are far weaker pound for pound than any of the other primates. So what do they look like? They look like these fucking spindly things with no muscles and giant heads.

And they communicate telepathically. [43:46] universally like everyone from all over the world every planet or every country rather that's experienced these creatures [43:53] They all say the same thing. They all say they communicate with them telepathically. [43:56] which – [43:57] That's where we're going. Which is exactly what you experience on DMT. Right. And like you can get a... [44:03] Uh, [44:04] A test drive. [44:05] of what that's like. Do you know that the original, when the original scientists or I guess anthropologists or what kind of people were studying ayahuasca when they first went down to the Amazon?

[44:17] They wanted to call Harmin telepathine. [44:21] They didn't know that it had already – because of the rules of scientific nomenclature, it had already been named. [44:27] So they didn't know. So this substance that these people had created... [44:33] One of the aspects of it, they wanted to talk to it as telepathine. They wanted to refer to it that way. So that was what they were going to call it scientifically. [44:42] because they had experienced these telepathic moments while on it. [44:46] But because it had already been named, they weren't allowed to rename it, so they just stuck with Harmin.

But Harmin had a real chance of being called telepathine. That's beautiful. [44:55] wild. [44:57] yeah yeah and it [44:58] It just seems like consciousness is coming to the forefront of every – [45:03] debate right now. Yeah. [45:05] The telepathy tapes... [45:07] shot out of a cannon like [45:09] Nobody's ever heard of that stuff. And I think you had the director. [45:13] or something on the show. [45:16] And it just seems like [45:17] The level of certainty that some people have about consciousness is adorable. [45:23] Yeah. Adorable to me. [45:25] It's like we're these little hairless monkeys.

[45:28] And we're like – every generation is like, oh, yeah, we didn't know 100 years ago, but now we know. We know now. Right. It's just ridiculous. Ridiculous. [45:37] Yeah, but that's the ego, right? [45:40] That's the certainty. Yeah. We need that certainty. [45:43] It... [45:44] I think... [45:45] We're at a place where curiosity... [45:47] Maybe except for politics. Curiosity isn't really dangerous. [45:52] anymore. [45:53] It's like people are scared to be publicly curious or to be public question something. [46:00] Like, why is this here? Why is that there? Do you know who Ignace Simmelweis was?

No. [46:05] He was a doctor. [46:07] Back in the day, no idea what year it was, but it was very, very early days. He was the guy who said, hey, maybe in between these operating room patients, what if we wash this blood off of our hands? [46:18] Before I go do this next operation. [46:22] And he got laughed out of the room and then eventually thrown into an insane asylum where he died. [46:29] for questioning this thing. And it seems like so much of what's going on with psychedelics research... [46:36] Even though like...

[46:39] Document after document is showing it's the most effective thing for PTSD and anxiety and depression and addiction and all this other stuff. And I'm not a champion researcher in any of this stuff, but it seems like – [46:52] Kind of coming out, people are getting the same treatment as this guy did when they're coming out, even though it's been documented so well. And it's still a Schedule I drug. Well, I think now that's changing. [47:07] And I think there's an I think one of the things that's changing it is the acceptance of it by the right.

And one of some of them, at least the old boomers, they don't want to let go. But the young guys, like especially special forces, guys, SEALs, Rangers, those kind of guys, they come back. So many of their buddies have. [47:26] had experiences and then, [47:29] recognize when one of their friends is struggling and take them to have these experiences. And that word is getting out. Sean Ryan is responsible for a lot of that because he's talked really openly about it. And obviously he has a huge platform. But Marcus Luttrell, him talking about it.

And then Rick Perry, the former governor of Texas, Republican governor of Texas, who hated marijuana, hated psychedelics, thought it was all just a bunch of hippie bullshit. [47:53] Well, he had brain atrophy, natural age-related brain atrophy. And the doctor said, oh, it's just pretty normal, standard, you're fine. Goes and does this Ibogaine session, comes back. Rick did it himself. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, a couple. He's done a few. Goes and does this Ibogaine session, comes back. The doctor says, you've got like his 25% approval. [48:15] improvement rather in your brain atrophy.

So then six months later, he goes back again for another scan. His brain atrophy is gone already. [48:24] It's gone. [48:25] He says he feels different. He thinks different. He feels better. [48:29] Like his mind works better. So it's not just an experience, Ibogaine in particular. It seems to be neuroregenerative in a profound way. That if this was a drug that you could patent... [48:42] pharmaceutical drug companies would be all over this shit. Yeah. [48:45] And it's proving to be one of the... [48:48] Most effective drugs ever tested. If you're if you're looking at like efficacy versus like a sample size, it's one of the most effective ever tested.

Andy Stumpf and I just did a show about it. We're talking about this stuff and he's brought a lot of awareness to this. [49:06] if [49:07] I think if we could get a little bit of awareness to it, I think we could – [49:10] cure a lot of this stuff, but I think the number one thing is like, [49:13] Is there a way that we can help to get this – [49:17] faster to people. [49:18] And they're working on it. Brian Hubbard and Rick Perry that Rick Perry said openly that this is my life's mission now.

[49:26] Really? Yeah. I mean, former governor, Republican governor of Texas. Yeah. His life's mission is to promote psychedelics. I'm so glad. Oh, I'm so glad. And this is another – Ibogaine is the best one to start out with because Ibogaine has zero recreational use. Right. [49:43] It's zero. It's not fun. Nobody likes it. It's not a good time. You throw up. You shit yourself. You freak out for 24 hours. But when you come back, you're a different person. And if you're willing to do that, if you're willing to do that, you can change.

[49:58] You could do a lot. [50:00] of fixing all that's and also maybe even more importantly be aware of what these little traps these little these little deeply carved grooves that your consciousness seems to comfortably slip into over and over again whether it's alcoholism or gambling or whatever it is it seems to just shut those down yeah in a very profound way that [50:22] You can't get anywhere else. [50:25] Yeah, and it's just – I think it zooms you out to where you're like, oh, shit, I thought all that was important.

Yeah. [50:31] Like you're talking about zooming out on these galaxies within galaxies and black holes and stuff. It gives you that perspective of like, whoa. [50:38] I thought I was really special. I thought I was super important. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is one of the things that most psychedelics do is they remove that idea completely. They go, this is you got to get rid of this. This is tripping you up. You're carrying this fucking weight around everywhere and it's really stopping your progress. Yeah. And it's kind of like it's like you're in a video game and then somebody.

Yeah. [51:03] comes back and be like, hey man, [51:05] Here's the shit you need to actually worry about. You don't need to do all this other stuff. Right, right, right. Yeah, like a little helper guy in the video game. Yeah. Guys, got to come with me. This is the wrong room. Yeah. They're coming. We got to get out of this room. Don't do that quest. Yeah. That's what it is. [51:23] And I mean, I'm a [51:25] I'm a hypnosis person. [51:26] Uh, guy...