A Knicks Miracle (and an All-Time Spurs Collapse), a Mini-Mailbag, and a World Cup Preview | With Joe House, Kirk Goldsberry, Anthony Dabbundo, and Cousin Sal

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[01:25] Save offers before you check out. [01:27] earn unlimited rewards. Plus, you can add those rewards on top of credit card points, [01:32] Now that. [01:33] is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. [01:36] Save those offers, start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See com/rewards terms, credit card points subject to issuers, [01:46] terms and conditions. [01:48] The Bill Simmons Podcast. [02:18] Netflix [02:21] following [02:22] Game four. [02:23] of Spurs-Knicks. [02:25] Kurt Goldsberry is here [02:27] Joe House is here. [02:28] That is the single biggest choke job I've ever witnessed in an important NBA game.

[02:33] combined with one of the best comebacks I've ever seen in an NBA game. [02:38] And House, I don't know where to start, except I kept thinking Falcons 28, Patriots 3. Oh! As I was watching that collapse. Not to bring a Boston team into this, but when- Oh, not to bring a Boston team into this. When Wemby missed those two free throws, it was like, wow, we're really doing this. They score 30 points in the second half. They blow a 29-point lead. And they still have a chance to end the game with less than six seconds left.

They get a terrible Brunson 30-footer that over Wemby. [03:07] But OG comes in, gets the tip. [03:11] How's... [03:12] Biggest basketball choke you've ever seen? Is that it? [03:15] It has to be it because of the circumstances, because... [03:19] The raw data tells it's the biggest comeback in NBA finals history. [03:25] And I felt like it was... [03:27] A perfect. [03:28] a perfect expression of exactly what, [03:32] this Spurs team, which is... [03:35] First half, the youthful exuberance, they're playing loose. They're playing free. They have absolutely nothing to lose. They can't miss.

[03:43] And the second half, they score 30 total points. I think KG, before we went live, said they had eight field goals total in the second half. Exactly exactly. [03:55] What a young team under these circumstances who hasn't been through the gauntlet. [04:00] you know, comes out and... [04:02] just a little bit tight, then it's contagious. The whole team is tight. And Wemby, you know, some of the observation coming into this game was when the turnaround is this short, he tends to, you can see some of the fatigue still on that man.

And the shooting percentage reflected it. And he ended up... 9 for 25, missing free throws. Yeah, with a swoon of missed shots. [04:26] 43 minutes for Wemby. [04:28] Kirk, I thought Mitch Johnson, he was keeping Wemby in there. Remember, he rested him for like 50 seconds, brought him back in. [04:36] And I think the thinking was, let's go for the kill. [04:39] let's get this, let's get this now. And if we're winning double figures, he's not going to play the last four or five minutes anyway. He wilted. At one point, I think he missed 10 of 11 shots down the stretch.

He missed [04:51] two monster free throws, and then combined with everything else that was coming back in this comeback in stages, which will cover Fox... [04:58] Gets the steal with 10 seconds left up one because Brunson throws it away, gets tapped out. And Fox is with OG behind him. Yeah. Yeah. [05:07] And you just have to fake like you're laying up and dribble it out and try to kill some time and shoot some free throws. He goes for the layup. OG blocks it. And then it's basically the hero on both ends.

This is one of the most heroic end of the game. [05:20] things that we've ever seen in a finals game. But when the Spurs look back at this, who are they going to blame? [05:28] Themselves. I think they – remember, this is the same team that broke the record for most threes in the first half. They were red hot. [05:35] That's why this story is so crazy, Bill. They went from the hottest shooting team we'd ever seen in a finals game, maybe the coldest. I haven't had time to look it up.

14 for 26 and then 3 for 17 in the second half. Yeah, they were 4 of 20 in the third quarter as a team, and I think 4 of 20 in the fourth quarter after shooting the lights out. But you brought up Fox. Let's blame him a little bit. I can't believe that guy won Clutch Player of the Year watching him down the stretch in this game. [06:05] the basketball too in the first half again that all fell apart in the third quarter fox had a bunch of dumb turnovers in the third quarter but that play yeah that's gonna haunt their dreams too they had the basketball they were up one he's going to the rim right that that's the moment with anna noby yeah but not with yeah like seven eight seconds yeah yeah and he goes up maybe he got fouled maybe he didn't but i don't think he should have gone up i think darren fox and uh [06:35] was huge but just an absolute collapse on the offensive end of the court for the Spurs I think Mike Breen did a great job calling it out it didn't look like they knew what they wanted to do it didn't look like what actions they they weren't confident who's the grown-up supposed to be is supposed to be the point guard the veteran the clutch player of the year I don't think he was big enough in that in that like late game stretch.

[06:57] Well, you know, the grownups were there. Jalen Brunson and OG. 100%. Brunson never comes out, I don't think, in the second half. Played 44 minutes, 36 points. [07:06] And Oji finishes with 33. He played 41 minutes and had the two biggest plays of the game, plus just a bunch of three. What was he? Seven for nine from three. A bunch of dagger threes, too, but. [07:18] You know, when you're coming back from this and the greatest... [07:21] Finals come back. I remember before this was the Celtics against the Lakers and [07:25] in game four in 2008.

And that was, they were down 24 and it was basically two runs. [07:31] And it was some three-pointers, and the Lakers got a little tight. And then you kind of felt with two minutes left, the Celtics were going to take the game. This was different. This was 79-46 at halftime. [07:44] With the Spurs of 14 for 26 from three. [07:47] and two turnovers house. Yeah. They playing perfect basketball. And I'm on text threads with all these Knicks fans. We're all going nuts about the refs. And I'm like, you guys, it's a 23 to six free throw advantage at halftime.

You guys are getting your asses kicked. Like you're not defending threes. You're, [08:03] Your defense has been horrible and the Spurs are playing great. [08:06] They ramped the defense up in the second half, so it goes from... [08:10] All of a sudden, Castle gets the fourth foul, and I thought all three announcers missed it. Because I thought Brunson was a different guy when Castle was out there versus when he was out. So Castle goes out pretty early, 10-09 in the third quarter, Castle's out. [08:23] But then the thing with these comebacks, these little stages, right?

[08:28] So they get it to... [08:29] 8159. [08:31] They get it to 81.65 with five minutes left. It's 90.75 at the end of three. So it's like, all right, you gotta make your second run here. [08:39] And then they make it. All of a sudden, it's 99.95 with 4.32 left. And we've all seen this Knicks team house... [08:46] Where it's like if they're in... [08:48] In sniffing distance, you feel like they're going to take it. [08:51] But Alvarado's out there. We have no Mikhail Bridges. [08:55] Towns has really done nothing.

It's basically two guys' parents. So what did you think was going to happen with five minutes left? [09:01] I thought it was going to win a great chance for the Knicks to win. I mean, the one thing that, that had me feeling a tiny bit cautious is, is the poise that the Spurs showed down the stretch in game three. [09:14] where they weren't completely phased. I mean, the Knicks tried to make a run in game three, and the Spurs were pretty calm. I thought they ran decent action. But this is always the case, and I don't have the fourth quarter numbers in front of me in terms of how well the Knicks shot the three ball in the fourth quarter.

But they were two for 14 from three in game three. They were vastly improved. And that's the thing that starts to feel like the avalanche, [09:44] But really, it was just Brunson and OG as the only reliable scorers for the Knicks. But you could feel the poise just falling away. You could feel the young team experience that. Yeah, so the Knicks were 4-20 for 3 in the first half. I'm sorry, 4-12. [10:04] And second half, they were 11 for 20. [10:08] And that was with, like, what did their bench, like, really...

[10:13] The bench was two. Eight points for Alvarado. Yeah, that's it. Two and two. Twelve points from their bench. Harper almost doubled their bench. I thought the Castle thing screwed up that dynamic for the Spurs, Kirk, because he's kind of their I'm not afraid of anything guy. And the fact that he was in and out of the game with foul trouble, he ends up playing 25 minutes. Usually he's around... [10:34] 38, 40, and then [10:36] Ultimately, it just became, hey, De'Aaron Fox, you're going to have to figure this out for us because Wemby seems like his luggage.

And there was a moment where Castle was the only one playing offense, it seemed, who was he got to the line a couple of times in the middle of that ice cold slump. He was the only one really attacking the two point area. He was good. The foul trouble. [10:56] Just with Towns. Towns had the two dumb fouls to open the game. And I had some Knicks friends texting me. I'm like, I'm sorry. I thought both of those were fouls. And the third foul was even dumber. He just shoved somebody in the back of the rebound and was out.

Yeah. I didn't like the first foul, just for the record. Yeah, Fox going at him. That's fair. I think... [11:15] Look, Jalen Bronson, I want to give some love to OG and an OB. This dude has been great for the New York Knicks, all playoffs. That tip in Bill Simmons, that is going to be something we're talking about for a very long time on your show and every other platform. That was NBA history. That was not an easy tip in. That's one of those. They'll have the camera angles from 15 different places on the OG tip in.

The big thing was Wemby was 25 feet from the basket and Harper came in to get it, but OG just came flying in. [11:45] like a set play but it wasn't obvious yeah quibble i want to quibble with you you called that um brunson shot a dumb shot i don't think that was a dumb shot i thought that was uh you know i want him taking it and i want them to have a chance to rebound and with wemby all the way out then they had a chance to rebound and og had a free run he had a free run at the basket it's a 30 foot shot with yeah trying to arc it over wemby i didn't think it was going in i understand and [12:09] It was a classic Kobe assist.

They had changed the shape of the defense. And then OG. But, dude, that was not an easy tip in. That was like five feet away. He was flying. Every time he got the ball in the corner, it's feeling like Klay Thompson, too. He's just making both plays on defense. And, by the way, he was the defender on that Fox play we talked about. This guy is... [12:32] He deserves so much credit right now for that win, G. Ananobi. [12:37] That's another thing I didn't like about them basically riding Fox down the stretch.

[12:41] The Knicks had A and an OB on him. [12:43] I just don't like the matchup. Guess what matchup I don't like? Anyone against OG and Anobi. I'm out. Let's come up with another thing. But that's part of the problem with when you have a young team trying to figure out what to do. And every time this happened in game three, too, and it felt like, [12:58] There's a couple of moments on that. [12:59] They start a white knuckle in the steering wheel with the lead, the Spurs. All of a sudden, it feels like it takes 10 seconds for them to get into their offense.

They're 30 feet from the basket. They're running this Wemby Fox high screen that seems like it's too far away. [13:14] And I just don't feel like anything good is going to happen. But we should mention, I mean, there's so many things to cover from this game. [13:20] That Josh Hart mislayup. [13:22] if the Knicks had lost would have been Charles Smith level. That would have been, if the Knicks had lost the series, that would have hit, Charles Smith would have been like, come on here, sit next to me in the park bench for the rest of eternity.

The story would have been two parts. It would have been that blown layup plus his failure to box out. [13:43] on the rebound when castle came in you know on on a they they did the knicks defended perfectly on one of those 30 seconds yeah and he was the one who committed the foul on wendy that sent to the line and then wendy misses both uh but yeah not a great sequence for josh hart but we're not sitting here talking about that because his teammate and that's what i would say he's talking everybody these this these these dudes are special right that's a special team as a spurs guy 28-3

[14:13] Like, I'm not, I was never comfortable. As crazy as that comeback. [14:18] was I've seen this team do this in these playoffs to Cleveland in game one. It wasn't 29 points, but this felt like grown men. [14:27] against young boys and it just they just got there and i was like okay once and and how said this you could feel it on on on in the game like that confidence of the spurs just melting away you know who was comfortable joe house because i checked with him at halftime and said what do i do about my spurs over a two-to-one parlay i should just hedge with the next phrase no this is done [14:57] way.

That's right. He told me not to hedge it. That's the correct play. Up by 27. Now, I will say to Kirk's great point. [15:06] But this is the DNA of the Knicks. Like we will get to see over the body of this season, all the journalism that comes out tomorrow morning and over these next two days will be all of the comebacks that the Knicks have mounted over the course of the season. All of these double digit second half comebacks, all of these fourth quarter comebacks that make them exactly. [15:26] prime for this moment against this team of Spurs that are [15:33] God damn badass boys.

I mean, they are bad. They are bad, bad. They were so good in that first half. I can't call them men because they're boys. And that's the difference. That's all. A team with a DNA where they're playing all the 48. They're going to get to the 48 and... [15:49] You know, the Spurs team, they're really good. It's a dead even series, except for the Knicks are up three to one. [15:57] Some of my notes from the third quarter, Castle for Fouse, Brunson loves with Castle isn't out there. Wemby flagrant, [16:04] Dumb SA shots.

[16:06] Five minutes left in the third quarter. SA has five points left. [16:09] way better defense from New York. So one of the things they did was they just clogged the paint. And they were like, we know you went 14 for 26 in the first half, but we don't think that's going to keep going. And it didn't. Spurs started going way too slow. By the end of the third quarter, they were two for 12 from three, five turnovers, 20%. [16:26] And then the other thing was Brunson just wasn't coming out.

And I thought Harper staved some of it off for them. [16:32] the third quarter because he was great. But at some point, [16:35] Somebody else has to step up. Nobody did. And then the fact that Brunson could do all that with never coming out, [16:43] It was pretty nuts. [16:44] [redacted address]. [16:48] He ended up taking... [16:52] Looking at the shots. 25 shots, 11 free throws. [16:56] Doing all the setting up everybody. I thought his his court game was really nice. He found a lot of guys who kept missing threes.

[17:03] He was great in OG, and those are the two heroes. And then Towns came in a little late with the 13 and 10, but it was really those two guys. Right, Kurt? Yeah, Towns had a couple of nice moments. I'd written in my notes, Carl Anthony Ghost Towns, because I felt like he was disappeared after the fouls. I think that was the karma that cost the Spurs the game, so sorry about that. You're nice. It was my notes. The other iconic moment that Brunson deserves good credits for was the incredible three over Wemby on the right wing.

[17:33] That's another one of those, like, you're going to make that social media, like, cinematic video of that. It was just an amazing shot. But Brunson deserves credit, Bill. I think he came into this game with 13 assists and 13 turnovers. You don't have to be Dean Oliver to know that's not a great assist to turnover ratio. But he was making plays all night, and he's never going to give up. To House's point, this is the DNA of this team. [18:03] legend if they can win one more game. One more.

He goes down in all-time history and he gets to take his place next to Jeter and Eli Manning and all these great guys they've had over the years. Freaking Mickey Mantle. Yeah, that'll be what happens. So, [18:18] 99.95, 432 left. [18:21] Fox comes out of the timeout, hits a huge three. So now they're up seven. [18:25] Alvarado gets a layup, Wemby hits a jumper, and then Alvarado hits a three with like three minutes left. So all of a sudden now it's 104-100. [18:35] Then you mentioned Brunson hit the three. Hart misses the layup.

[18:39] Wemby misses both free throws. Brunson hits that floater and Castle steps out of bounds. [18:45] And it's like, this game's done. What happens? Knicks get the 24-second violation. [18:50] Fox misses Castle has that offensive rebound you mentioned and makes two more clutch free throws. [18:55] Huge. And now that leads to the Brunson turnover. [19:00] Fox with a breakaway. [19:03] OG blocks them. And if you're the Spurs, you look back at this and you say, we didn't have a field goal in the last four minutes of the game. [19:09] And our best guy missed two free throws when it really mattered.

Yeah. And our point guard, instead of dribbling out the clock, trying to kill time, get fouled, you're at least going up two. [19:19] decided to try to challenge G. Inanobi on a layup. [19:22] And then on top of it, it felt like that play at the end of the game was open. And I think Towns tipped the pass. [19:28] Castle was open on that. He was. Did you see that? Castlewood had a layup on that, but Towns... [19:34] tipped it. So I don't know, Kirk. [19:37] I feel like after some of these, you're like, this is done.

It's over. They can't recover. And then a lot of times you just see the team recover. But I don't think they can win three games in a row, as well as they played in game three and as well as they looked in the first half. I certainly wouldn't bet on that, Bill. But I wouldn't rule it out in this day and age in these playoffs. This first team has... [19:56] responded every time. Now, they seem to make it harder each round. Going down 3-2 to OKC was... [20:03] not a great position to be in.

They came back and won. So I would take the Knicks. Don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't rule it out. Game five in San Antonio, we'll talk about, but like something you mentioned that I think we bears like, [20:17] drilling down on Mike Brown going with Alvarado down the stretch. [20:22] Sitting Bridges who stunk. Yeah, and Alvarado had two massive buckets, though. He hits the three, and then he had the two-point shot, too, and... [20:33] Mike Brown. [20:34] Ladies and gentlemen, this is a Knicks coach that is a first year coach.

The last year's Knicks coach would not have been playing that guy in that moment. And I think the Knicks are at this level because they made Mike Brown the head coach. And I think that deserves a little respect here right now, too. [20:54] And on top of that point, how's [20:56] They steal Alvarado at the deadline for nothing. [20:58] He falls out of the rotation pretty quickly because his shooting goes sideways. But he's a New York City kid. [21:05] grew up dreaming of playing for the Knicks someday, right? And you just feel like this is [21:09] This is smart because whether he plays or doesn't play, he's going to be delighted to be there.

[21:15] He's a great teammate agitator. He might have a moment in these playoffs was... [21:20] the feeling, right? And then he has the moment in the biggest game that they played the whole season. Yeah. Go, go dig out the clips, get pat yourself on the back a little bit at the trade deadline. You, you were effusive with your praise to the Knicks for, um, that, that acquisition. Oh, you want me to do the Stephen A and start taking credit? Do I get a championship ring? Um, [21:41] But the thing is, we always talk at the trade deadline when we do these pods.

[21:46] Oh, he's a playoff guy. Oh, you can play him in a playoff game. Oh, that's somebody in the right series. He'll have a moment. And he's one of those guys. You could see it in New Orleans. And [21:56] you know, versus Nikola Vucevic, maybe not one of those guys. OG Ananobi, also a masterpiece of a trade. Now, like, look at that deal, too. I mean, the next front office deserves a little bit of credit for putting this group together with that trading tool, not just Kraft. Can we give them a lot of credit?

This has been an amazing front office. Yeah, this is one of the best jobs anyone's done. Yeah, I mean, so I think, yeah, the guys behind the scenes, the front office and the coaching staff are a big reason why they won [22:26] huge and [22:28] You know what's another reason? [22:30] The Spurs completely choked that it was the biggest choke in the history of the NBA. You said you weren't going to call it a choke, Bill. Jeez. I don't love the word choke, but when it's a collective team and you blow a lead like that and...

[22:44] What happens happens down the stretch, and then you have major brain farts and missed free throws and [22:49] you're not boxing out on the biggest rebound of the game and all that stuff like that. Unfortunately is going to count as a choke. One small aside, Manhattan might be on fire. I'm looking at, Oh my God. There's a lot of loud noises and a lot of honking and a lot of celebration. Everybody's talk about that. Cause we we've spent 20 minutes here and didn't talk about this next team that hasn't won in 53 years.

[23:11] the fans are at it. They're so I'm, [23:14] hearing from people at the game and they're like, the refs have just, between Trump in game three and the refs in game four, [23:19] the fans are just in this nervous, angry frenzy, and it's like affecting the team was... [23:25] the, the, the, [23:27] message I was getting from the stands. The energy is way off. The fan energy was affecting the team. The fan energy was just... It was almost like they had to hit rock bottom to come out of it.

[23:39] And then it turns into one of the most joyous events, not only in the history of the Knicks, but in the history of the league to win that game. When the Celtics won their game, it was on the road in A. We don't see a lot of home comebacks like that, but that ends up being... [23:53] they're probably going to win the title. That becomes one of the most iconic comebacks in the world. [23:58] in any sport, not just basketball. We've all been to New York City a hundred times, Bill, and I've never seen it like this.

It is so electric. Everybody you walk by on the street has a Knicks shirt on. Everybody's talking about the Knicks, the cabbies. We've heard other people talking about it. But it is electric in there. But, dude, there is a lot of pressure on this team. And I thought at some point in this game, they lost some of their composure. Mitch Robinson throws that elbow at Wemby. Wemby's motioning the I'm in your head. And it was like, oh, wow. [24:28] picked up Wemby's leg. How was that not a flagrant, by the way?

I think the refs were afraid of the crowd at that point. I totally agree with that. You're right. I think KG's on the money. They're like, we don't like the energy in this crowd. The refs didn't like it. They were terrified of all those 72-year-old billionaires sitting in the first row. The very day there was a coming for it. They threw a catheter at them. [24:51] No, they definitely... [24:53] And then I thought in the second half, I thought the Knicks got way more physical, which they should have done. [24:58] Um, [24:58] And, [24:59] The Spurs, every time they would get in trouble in this series, would just stop going to the basket.

[25:04] And that's why Castle was so important to them throughout the finals. And then just him not playing enough, they kind of missed their guys. Like, fuck it, I'm going to the basket. [25:12] I watched Game 7 with Chris Bosh, name drop, and I was watching it with him, the Oklahoma City Series. And he said to me, he's like, when he needs his move, what's his move? And in those moments, like Timmy had, we knew what, if the Spurs were going through this 25 years ago, [25:31] It would be Tim on the left block over the right shoulder off the glass.

You know, he needs to develop that. And in these moments when Mike brings like it just feels like they don't know what play they want to get to. That's where your superstar needs to have some bread and butter action. And to your earlier point, Bill, you know who has that? [25:49] Jalen Brunson he can get to the elbow he can do the step back three he can get into the lane and draw a foul and it just feels like that was a real learning moment for these young guys like that's the difference between a mature NBA player and an immature NBA player and that was on full display the most important possessions of this game.

[26:09] That's such a good point. And I want to ask you a question about Wemby, but to me, [26:14] Honestly, the guy that I want, [26:17] having the ball under those circumstances that I trust going to the hole and Bill's already shaking his head is Harper. [26:23] Harper's the guy that the playmaker that that I want I want to get those touches those Fox touches at the at the end now Fox did nail that three and that was a humongous three but I think you know the only reason that it's not Harper in those possessions at the end is just because you know he's what is he 20 whatever years old yeah this is his first time in the league but here's my question.

[26:46] And they were settling for threes over just going to the basket, which was the other. What a segue. What a setup. [26:51] KG, it can't be the case. It can't be the case. [26:55] that the Spurs want [26:57] Victor shooting a third, taking a third of his attempts from three. It just can't be the case that they prefer that. It doesn't make any sense. He wants it. Eight three-point attempts? Eight three-point attempts. I don't know why he's so afraid of foul line jumpers. [27:14] It feels like I always think they're going in like that little spot, like between the foul line and the top of the key.

[27:20] When you talk about he doesn't have a shot yet, [27:23] The shot should be like a running jump hook or some sort of... Yeah. [27:26] I'm sticking my arm up in the air and kind of just flicking it down. But that's the thing. He's 22 and five years. [27:33] Like think of all the great players over the years who every year they added something to their game. So he's going to add something. I think house to answer your question about what's his move. Like, [27:42] I actually think it's that hard roll to the basket with this hand up and the alley-oop.

And what the Knicks were starting to do during this series – [27:49] is they're shoving them. They are. They're basically committing a foul before he touches it. So it's not a shooting foul. And they must have done that five times today. Totally. Where they're shoving him off balance as he's about to get the dunk versus fouling him as he's getting the dunk. [28:01] And it was smart. They've done, I think like they've, I think the Knicks have won every challenge they've had in the series. That's another one. Like, [28:08] They're just like really well coached.

Now it didn't seem like that in the first quarter when they weren't playing defense and getting their asses kicked. But, but yeah, it's just a smart, [28:17] cerebral team. And it comes down to plays like that Fox play. Fox not dribbling out the clock. [28:22] OG realizing he might actually go for the layup and somehow blocking and not fouling him. [28:27] And then they're playing the other end. [28:29] Um, [28:31] From a Wemby standpoint. [28:33] Kirk, I hate to frame it this way, but I'm going to do it anyway. [28:36] I don't know.

[28:37] Maybe this is... [28:40] This is the Wemby. I need to be kicked into the nuts. [28:44] as hard as possible, and this will make me stronger for the long-term loss that seemingly all great athletes have. [28:50] Yeah, I mean, that's the lore, right? That's the conventional wisdom. I'm still not ready to give up on this series, but if they lose... [28:59] There's no question that the 90% free throw shooter going to the line for the most important free throws of a season and going 0 for 2 in that situation is...

[29:08] That's in between the ears, Bill. And yeah, I think he has... Also, he's a great free throw shooter. That's the other problem with that. He said 90%. Yeah, I mean, it's just like that made it worse because I thought, I know he's tired, but he's great at this. He's going to make these and... [29:24] Didn't make either. Yeah, and then Castle goes up and makes them. And I feel like you could say those are just random numbers. I don't believe that. I think there was a poise and a fatigue thing.

And that's the other thing is Victor is not the most – [29:38] Thank you. [29:39] he doesn't have the endurance of somebody like Stephen Curry or these great players we've seen who've worked on their physiques and their conditioning for years and gotten to the point where at the end of the fourth quarter, a game's exactly like this, Stephen Curry's going to be the one who's in the best shape, running around, making his jumpers, hitting those exact kinds of free throws. And it does look like it to me that Victor has a conditioning challenge ahead of him too, and these late games kind of prove it.

[30:08] Well, think about Steph. When did he hit all the ankle stuff and wasn't really until like year four, year five when he started around into who he is. House, what do you think the. [30:18] Thank you. [30:19] What do you think the gambling line on this series is right now? You have to guess. [30:23] Oh, whatever it opened at. [30:26] but flipped. The Spurs were 2-1 favorites. Is it more than that now? Yeah. Oh, okay. I think they're factoring in the Chocola that happened today. [30:38] Minus 400 for the mix.

I'm fando. Minus 400. All right. [30:41] Yeah. Wow. That sounds right. [30:44] Two days off. All right, so if you're this person, let's watch. Dude, that's crazy. [30:48] Let's go through this if you're the Spurs. You get two days off, you don't play until Saturday, or you're going home. [30:53] You... [30:54] Led all four games in the final two minutes. [30:58] And I think you led three of them in the final minute. [31:01] You had... [31:03] Two of the most memorable moments, [31:06] last minute collapses in the recent history of the finals with when be thrown the pass off castles back in game two.

And then basically everything that happened in the last couple of minutes of this. And, [31:17] You know, you could talk yourself into... [31:20] All right. [31:21] Come on, one game at a time. We can play with these guys. This team's not better than us. They haven't really beaten us yet. We've led double figures in every game. [31:29] We've had leads of like 17 and 29. And, you know, let's just. [31:35] Let's just play our game. Don't get carried away. But what does Mitch Johnson do differently other than maybe not playing Wemby that many minutes?

[31:42] I think they got to just do what they were playing so much better than the Knicks for that first half. [31:49] Yeah. For an hour. [31:51] What does he do differently? [31:53] I don't know. I think one of the things I wanted to see, you sort of brought it up earlier, and it doesn't have to be Harper, but pick on Jalen Brunson on defense. Yeah. You have these three ferocious attack guards. [32:06] um De'Aaron Fox maybe not as ferocious as normal he's still dinged up but could we could we pick on Brunson on defense wear him out so you wouldn't pick on OG and an OB that's one of your one of the things you'd change I wouldn't pick on don't pick on OG and no be all right I'm gonna write that down or Josh Hart or uh Bridges is good like [32:26] But yeah, I would try to get Cat in foul trouble on purpose, and I would attack Cat.

[32:33] with my [32:34] fleet of attack guards. [32:37] I would isolate and attack Jalen Brunson and drive situations. [32:41] When in very, very quietly, that was the impact of Castle getting into foul trouble. [32:48] It was champagne-y. [32:51] who was out there. Champagne got the majority. It got 33 minutes to Castle's 26. And he killed them tonight, at least offensively. And that's somebody that was huge for them in the OKC. And one more point on that. [33:03] One more point. [33:05] When the Spurs won their only game in the series, guess who was in foul trouble?

[33:08] Jalen Brunson, because they were attacking him. He got the... [33:12] Those four fouls and he had to sit out. And that was a huge factor. And the Knicks, without Brunson on the floor, are completely guardable. And it's almost like the only time I've seen somebody really expose one defender this playoffs, like I would try to do if I were Mitch Johnson, was the Knicks going after Harden over and over and over and over again in that series. I would like to see. [33:36] a really sort of [33:39] aggressive targeting of Jalen Brunson on defense by these guards.

[33:43] I'm trying to remember other famous... [33:46] last minute collapses like this. And another one that has come up a few times, [33:51] over the last few weeks was that 95 magic with the four missed free throws. Now that was like, [33:56] Nick Anderson, four in a row. That was more abrupt. The game was over. It goes into overtime. And then I actually went back and watched it after we talked about it in the last pod. And I think Hakeem gets a tip in with like under a second left in OT to win it.

And that young team cratered. [34:12] There was a feeling maybe that would happen to the Spurs after game two. [34:17] Didn't happen. Um, [34:19] And Wendy is... [34:21] one of the most confident young stars we've ever had. And he could just say, "Look, man, I got worn out. "I was trying to do everything, I was going nuts. [34:29] But I still feel like [34:31] I'm the best player in the series. So no castle foul trouble. Wemby responds. What else do you need, House? More Dylan Harper? Well, I will say this to KG's observation earlier.

[34:44] The short turnaround time going from a Monday game to a Wednesday game, we don't have any more of those. Over the balance of this series, we go Saturday, Wednesday, [34:53] Tuesday, Friday, I think, is game seven. [34:57] Um, so with that cadence, for sure, that, that, that's a step in the right direction. [35:03] for Wemby. [35:05] But, I mean, honestly, the way these games have played out, I don't think that there are big moves to be made. I mean, the Spurs were right there. The difference is knocking down two more shots in the fourth quarter.

And they may be dribbling at the clock. Yeah. [35:23] Mm. [35:24] Any last notes, Kirk? [35:27] Yeah, I was telling people all week, like, well, I have a question for you, but it's like, [35:31] These teams are very close. And it's almost like if we flip the coin together seven times and heads won five of them, I'd be like, man, tails sucks, you know? [35:41] That's how close this series is to me. But... [35:45] Here's my question for you, Bill Simmons, because you're the greatest sports writer of our time, but you're retired.

I have to write the Game 5 look ahead. So I think Joe House will let me indulge. If the sports guy had the assignment that I have at your website, com, for tomorrow, what are we thinking for Game 5? [36:04] five. [36:07] you [36:08] Your Brunson defense when Castle can stay on the court is working. [36:12] I don't know. We haven't seen like this is the... [36:15] I love coming on after these games, but not knowing what some of the advanced stats are. I'd love to know the on-off. [36:22] when Castle's out there when he's not against Brunson.

Because it feels like when Castle's out there against Brunson, [36:27] He has a hard time looking like Brunson. [36:29] So that'd be the first thing is like, hey, Castle, like, just try to stay in the game for us because you're our best chance for this. [36:36] Harper, [36:38] The more he has the ball ad-libbing, doing Harper stuff... [36:41] I just feel like they're in a better position. [36:44] I'm not giving OG that corner three anymore. I'm just not. If I have to give up other stuff, that's fine. But he's... [36:51] It's just going in every time now, and if it doesn't go in, he's beating somebody down the baseline and creating something else.

You have to start treating him, I think, take him a little more seriously. [37:00] I'm not afraid of anyone on that Knicks bench. [37:04] Um, [37:05] McBride and Shamit have gone sideways. [37:08] Alvarado came up big, but he was really like the last guy they could put out there. And this hasn't felt like it's a series for Mitch. [37:15] Um, [37:16] And then just hope, keep trying to challenge Towns and hope he does dumb stuff. That third foul he had was really stupid. Like, yeah. [37:23] That was a classic Minnesota townspell.

So I don't know. What else would you add, Houston? [37:29] Um, nothing. I mean, in terms of, of the narrative, um, [37:33] The interesting thing to me is what we got in that second half is the version of the Knicks each time they had a closeout game in front of them. They go up on teams. You know, that was 58 to 30. Well, guess what? We watched that against Atlanta. We watched that against every time this next team had a chance to close somebody out. And so that's the fascinating thing to me.

[38:03] conference teams the Knicks went up against and just ran them off the floor. [38:08] I honestly love the Spurs. Now, I don't know that the line's going to open up at what it's been, Spurs at home. [38:14] four and a half, five and a half, something like that. I'm not going to lay the points out of respect to the Knicks, but I honestly think the Spurs are going to win. [38:22] It's the smell of a Tony Brothers game. Oh! [38:28] He's got the whiff. I smell fouls. Oh, I just smell another foul.

Yeah, it feels like this would be a Tony special. We also haven't seen Foster in a while. That's what I thought the sports guy was going to say. Maybe we save him for game six at the Garden, a chance for him to be under the bright lights of Broadway and do his thing. Extend it. [38:50] Off the hook, Trump, who I think if the Knicks had lost this game too, I think the New York City fan base hatred of Trump would have gone to this level that would have never been seen before.

And then Josh Hart would have been the other one if they lose that game, like we mentioned. That's... [39:08] He's immediately taking a seat next to Charles Smith. [39:12] with [39:13] one of the worst moments in Knicks history. And the other irony of it is Knicks fans love Josh Hart. So of all people, and it looked like he was going to dunk, but then realized that, [39:22] His steps are too far away. [39:24] and uh couldn't do it so [39:26] All right, so House thinks the Spurs are still alive in game five.

[39:30] I think I agree. [39:32] Um, [39:34] But I don't think they can beat the Knicks three times in a row. [39:37] Without some sort of injury or something weird happening. If these are the teams and everyone's healthy, I don't see the Knicks losing three times in a row. If obviously they win game five, game six will be fascinating. I mean, a chance to win the NBA championship is... [39:53] in Madison square garden in Manhattan with this fan base. That's a lot of pressure. It's going to be one of the most electric NBA games in the history of the league.

If that happens, um, [40:04] But yeah, I could see a path for the Spurs, but certainly, like I said earlier, [40:09] Dude, you're down 3-1. You had chances to win. [40:13] at least three of these games yourself. It's just we've seen too many of these series built to really have faith in the Spurs at this point. [40:21] All right, guys. I think we covered everything. I'm amazed we were all coherent. [40:27] Yeah. [40:29] And especially like knowing that the Spurs were a young team prone to do this. [40:34] And knowing that the Knicks love coming back [40:37] Yeah.

[40:38] Even when the game was 29, I wasn't exactly turning it off. [40:42] But I felt like they'd missed their, it was like it became a Salazar the Turk game where it was like the Knicks missed their chance a couple times when they were getting it to 15-14 and then somebody hit a three and it was like, ow. [40:53] This could have been a great comeback. And then all of a sudden, the fourth quarter, when Wembe got tired, it flipped. [40:58] And that, and that was that, um, [41:00] I'm sure we missed 17 things, but...

[41:03] Kurt Goldsberry. [41:04] Joe House, appreciate you guys. We're going to take a break. Come back. I have a little mini mailbag for the audience right after this. [41:12] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. USA fans, we got one for you. FanDuel dropping a massive USA super boost. [41:20] for the matchup on Friday. [41:22] against Paraguay. Right now, all customers can win up to $25.00. [41:25] If the USA has one plus shot, [41:29] One plus shot on goal. That's it. Whether it comes early or late from outside the box, right in front of the goal, every attack will feel a little bit bigger.

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[42:10] and where I stay is super duper important. I like an easy check-in process, [42:16] I like to be able to hang up all my stuff really quickly. I like a TV with a remote control that can do some stuff. I'm pretty easy for the most part, but I like to feel like it's just a nice place. If this sounds like you, check out Holiday Inn. It has a whole new energy, especially for business travelers. [42:32] You'll see it everywhere from refreshed rooms to reimagined social spaces and dining done right.

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Thanks for all the nice notes and... [43:11] Nice things people say. It gives me faith in society that we're still nice people. [43:16] Couple... [43:17] Thoughts here on home court advantage. So we'll start there. Harrison from Cincinnati. [43:22] When I was talking about with Mahoney about why doesn't home court advantage matter like it used to, Harrison from Cincinnati said, what about dating apps? [43:31] Players no longer need to go to a bar or club to pick up girls on the road anymore. Now they can just hop on a top dating app like Raya or check their Instagram DMs and invite someone to their hotel room without needing a drink or stay out late.

Maybe this is the single biggest reason of the downfall of home court advantage. You know, I wanted to laugh at this and then I was thinking about how, [43:49] Players probably met people in the 90s and the 2000s versus how they'd be now. And it's probably way easier to be more discreet and meet people without having to actually go out in the general public and stay up late and do all that stuff. So it can't be ruled out. [44:05] Um, Jalen Rose and I always used to have a joke when, uh, when athletes would get into a town and they would say on Twitter.

[44:12] They would be landing in Miami and they'd be like, "What's good Miami?" And then you would just get all these DMs from whoever, people that knew you were in Miami. Yeah, maybe that is part of it. Maybe people are out until five in the morning at clubs anywhere. Oliver from Chicago wants to know, "Is it possible athletes are just better at handling the pressure?" [44:35] They're bigger, stronger, faster over the time. Is it possible they've also improved at handling their pressure and emotions too? This is follow-up from Jake from Minneapolis.

What about the impact sports psychologists have on modern players? [44:47] Top prospects, recruits, college players all work with professional psychologists, mental health experts, whoever, prepare them to play in these type of environments, big games, handle the backlash. The impact of mental health to me is the most glaring difference in 30, 50 years from now. [45:02] It's tough because I remember doing an interview with Adam Silver at the Sloan Conference when he said actually he was the most worried he'd ever been about the mental health of players because of social media and people being online all the time and the tribalism of social and – [45:16] how fast people can mobilize against somebody or try to make them look bad, not to mention AI and all the other things.

To me, that's an even out. I wouldn't say that as a factor, but I do wonder maybe some of the psychology of sports we're getting a little better about handling adversity. Maybe that's a little better. This is a theory from Nick from Cleveland. With all the AAU teams, these guys have played probably a thousand different gyms [45:46] for six hours coming home, eat McDonald's breakfast, get back in the car, drive somewhere else. An 8:30 finals game after a day off is a walk in the park compared to what they probably dealt with for 10 years, along with proper sleep, nutrition, it makes sense to me that they're better.

[46:04] Not against that. There's definitely, definitely, um, you're bouncing around more and, you know, a gym is a gym after a while. Um, um, [46:13] This is the big one. A couple people brought this up with the refs because I mentioned with Mahoney, like you really felt like you could sway the refs, especially there was two for a long time in the 70s and 80s. I can't remember when they went to three. [46:27] There was blood in the air. [46:30] They were just outright. You can watch some of this stuff on YouTube.

There were just some games that you just can't believe how one-sided the officiating ones, which is so much harder to do now in the era of social media. I really feel like in the 2000s, this shifted from what was going on basically from 1999 through the Miami-Dallas series in 06. [46:53] Then Donahy happens in 07. And all of a sudden, we got way better at kind of monitoring what was going on with refs. So there is a before after that. And then Mitchell Eppner says, what about video review? Not just in-game requests for replays, but the constant drilling the NBA refs get from league offices and calls they got right and wrong.

They have the performance report after the games. [47:14] And they're hammering down them left and right. [47:17] maybe the refs are just better at calling stuff. Well, don't tell the Knicks fans this after game three, um, even though we're taping this before game four, but, um, yeah, [47:27] It's possible. I think it's way harder to have a completely terrible one-sided refereeing performance than it was. And there's probably more accountability for a variety of reasons. Um, [47:38] And Byron, a Pacer fan, and this is a tough playoffs to watch, he put in a practice, he said, you can't affect refs nearly as much now because bad calls will be reviewed and made right.

You can't be terrible homer refs because it'll be graded and scrutinized by everybody. So the refs are a piece of it. I think the travel, the more I thought about it, I think the travel is the number one thing that is just easier than it was in the 70s and 80s. The refs are more consistent. [48:03] I mentioned the shooting motions with Rob. It's a weird one, but there's just less variance. Everybody shoots the same. And then the three-pointers is the other one where three-pointers can swing any game possible. So interesting topic.

[48:19] Patrick Franken wrote in about he's a Milwaukee fan and him and his fellow Buck fans are now obsessed with that 82-0 game, which I'm sure people have taken over the Internet the last seven, eight days where you make these teams and you try to go 82-0 and you spin it. And there's a science to it. The best I've ever done is 80-2. [48:41] Now, I do the harder one where you don't get to look at the stats. You get two spins, but I've just never pulled off the 82-0. Now that the finals is about to go into a break for a couple of days, I'm going to make a more concerted effort.

[48:56] Patrick says, over the last two weeks, two guys have dominated our group chat, Truck Robinson and World Beef Free. Truck, because of his awesome name and insane stat lines from the late 70s, [49:07] We're now down a YouTube rabbit hole of watching truck highlights, including a 1978 game against the Spurs where he scored 39. And then he said, world be free. Awesome name for the purposes 82 and 0. Average 29 and 30 in the 78, 79 seasons we got to share the Clippers. None of us knew these guys existed prior to the game.

My question to you is, can you spend two minutes breaking down one of their careers? Were they good stats, bad team guys? [49:32] Could they have better career on the right team? [49:34] He came to the right place. I can't think of anyone on the planet who's more excited to answer this question. So, [49:40] Truck Robinson, and he used to be Lloyd Free. He changed his name to World Be Free. Lloyd Free was on the Sixers. Truck Robinson was on the Bullets. Both of them played in the finals. Truck Robinson, 75 finals.

[49:52] and Lloyd Free's 77 finals. They were bench guys with better players ahead of them. And then they got traded and their stats went way up. And Truck had... [50:01] Truck had one of the craziest stat seasons I think of anyone in the history of the league compared to when you look at the rest of their career, where he averaged, he went to Washington, he signed a free agent contract, I want to say with Atlanta, but somehow ended up at [50:19] put up 23 and 15 for an entire year in the 78 season was first team on BA.

And this was a big stretch for power forwards where, um, this was when we had the fight with Kermit Washington. Um, they, you had Morris Lucas, George McGinnis, um, Kermit Washington, um, [50:38] you had Truck Robinson just a lot of big physical power forwards that were around there at the same time Buck Williams eventually came in the league and Truck was probably the best rebounder of all of them now as a kid I don't think I ever saw him play he was barely ever in the playoffs he was in the wrong conference but [50:55] He ended up getting traded again to Phoenix, right?

[51:00] And I think 79 playoffs made the Western finals with them and they lost to Seattle. So he was in the mix in real games. They and then in 81, they lost to the Kings. But that was a team that Suns team maybe could have made the finals to. He was good, though. He was a banger, super physical, really good rebounder and ended up with a Nike poster.