The Green River Killer - Gary Ridgway (Part 3)

[00:00] These long dog days of summer, I mean, we just made it through a heat wave. Mama was parched through this heat wave. I was hitting up Dunkin' every single day, and I will continue to probably for the rest of my days, but especially this summer. Dunkin' is helping everyone stay cool this summer with its lineup of refreshers. These drinks are packed with bold, fruity flavors and served ice cold. It's amazing. Dunkin' refreshers are the perfect afternoon pick-me-up. I like to [00:30] back for a second one because I'm just feeling crazy.

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With so many options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you, so you can get back to solving all of life's bigger cases. Go to com or use the award-winning app to connect with a local agent and get a quote. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. [02:38] Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Molded. [02:58] It's Molded on a Monday. It's true. [03:02] and that's what's up and this is gonna be a little longer of a series than i initially anticipated i think we're gonna be we're gonna clock it at like five parts yeah i don't even think we told them like how many it was yeah i don't know if i told you guys how long it was gonna be multi yeah yeah [03:19] It's ending at five parts.

I was going to try to make it four parts. [03:24] But that last part was going to be so long. Yeah. And... [03:29] There's more people who... [03:31] who are killed during that part, and I didn't want them to get [03:34] all kind of lumped together. Yeah, like lumped into the beginning and then lost in the end. I [03:39] like it made more sense yeah you want to give everybody like their moment it's gonna be a long but i mean it's the green river killer it's spanned over a decade right yeah so he he was a big part of the 80s and early 90s so so there you go yeah so he i mean this is just a lot and when you really go into this case holy shit yeah holy shit i've heard you like watching some interviews with ted [04:09] ingratiated himself into several other things.

What are you doing over there? I was like, I thought we were covering Pre-River Killer. We are. [04:17] But yeah, before we get back into this, because holy hell, it's like a hellscape in there. Yeah. [04:24] What kind of fun stuff is going on? What kind of fun stuff is going on? Your book is releasing super soon. It is. It's going to be on so soon. You're a little baby. Less than a month now. Yeah. And exciting thing... [04:38] I haven't announced it on socials yet, but you might, you guys should hear it first.

Uh, [04:42] I decided... [04:44] that I'm going to do a live signing line. [04:47] At all the locations of the tour that we announced. Ooh. They will not be pre-signed copies. It will be a signing line. A live song. Um. [04:56] The only reason... [04:57] That I wasn't before was because I have like high anxiety, like social anxiety. And I guess. She's a little awkward. I'm a little awkward. And so that always felt most comfortable. But then I was like, you know what? I really I want to meet readers. Yeah.

Really bad. So like and I want to have those moments with you. So also like I love you. You're not as awkward as you think you are. Thank you. I appreciate everybody. I feel. [05:20] I feel that way. Everybody feels that way. Like, so I feel socially awkward. And you always say I'm good socially. I also have like a shit immune system. So that was the reason why I was doing a lot of pre signs because like during the heightened times. Yeah. [05:34] Um... [05:36] I was a little nervous about because I just weirdly I'll pick up anything.

No, you do. I don't want to bring it to the kids and all that. I'm having an asthma flare, so I'm going to like watch you from afar. Yeah. So, you know. But I'll discuss with you. I've been pumping up that immune system and I'm ready to do this. Yeah. You don't want a Clementine. I think there's some tickets left for the New York book event at Union Square, Barnes & Noble. I love that Barnes & Noble. And again, there'll be live signing lines because I... [06:01] I would like to meet readers.

So I was going to say hello. Hello. So if you've already bought tickets to the other ones, like, hey, we're going to hang out and for the New York one, go get your tickets. Period. But yeah, so that'll be fun. [06:15] We have a game. [06:16] Oh my God, we have a game. We have a game, guys, with Hunt a Killer. It's the same on Slicer. Yeah, and it's real fun. It's so cool, too, to have a game with Hunt a Killer because, again, I'm sure you've heard us say this before, but if you haven't, they were our first sponsor on Morbid back in 2018, which...

[06:34] So to now be like collabing with them is such a full circle moment for us. And just also such like a fever dream kind of vibe. Truly. [06:44] And I've been playing Hunt a Killer since they became... [06:48] company. I remember you always had them like piled up in your living room. We John and I used to love doing those. We had and they used to come in like the plain black boxes that we had like stacked. I always have like weird like evidence cards hanging around and like like police reports.

I'd be like what are you guys doing? Yeah. So it's it's pretty cool to all of a sudden be [07:07] have a game with them. I know. So pick it up. It's really fun. [07:11] It's a cool, like, summertime, like... [07:14] by the by the lake or by the pool or hanging out at night outside with a fire going play some spooky girls night boys night yeah whatever night you feel night or morning you can do in the morning if you want you do it in the morning we actually like early morning hazy outside with your coffee hunter killer yeah salem slicer that's a vibe there's a podcast episode in the game that we did

[07:44] Go get it. It's like everywhere now. Yeah, I think it is. It's like Walmart. [07:48] And let me tell you, they were great to work with. We had a blast with Relatable. So you better go buy our game. [07:54] So, yeah, I just wanted to put that out there. Anything else? [07:57] I'm trying to think if there's any other fun things. I miss Widow's Bay. [08:01] um like like to a point where it's like hurting a little bit so i want to i want to have a party that's widow's bay theme me too i know you want it to be your birthday party but i frankly don't want to wait that long i want a widow's bay party so bad maybe we can do like a summer ween widow's bay party i think that would be so much fun [08:20] I just miss it.

Oh, [08:22] I have an idea and I'm not going to talk to you about it, but I'm going to talk to your husband about it. Period. Period. I thought that all out live. That was crazy. But yeah. See ya. I'm trying to think if there's anything else to tell you guys. [08:39] I don't know. If something comes up, I'll let you know. [08:43] But yeah. So I hope you guys are having a good summer. And I'm stalling because it's going to be rough. No, it's okay. Summer is almost over, by the way.

Summer is almost over. It's Halloween. It's spooky season. So... [08:54] Let's get into it. All right. We got a shift. This is going to be a hard shift. I apologize for the hard shift. You left off. [09:01] I left off on a pretty crazy place. They had just received that [09:05] wild letter. Like a wild letter. I was so mad at you. And they had gotten a fingerprint off of it, but they couldn't really do anything with the fingerprint. It's just going to sit there because 80s. And then John Douglas was like, yeah, I don't think this is from the killer.

Which was valid of him because it sounds insane. This letter, and you're kind of like, I don't know. It sounds insane. Well, that's the thing. And it was sent to the post-intelligencer. [09:35] And what we found out was that [09:38] he was wrong and that it was sent by the green river killer. Um, [09:43] So, [09:44] Again, this letter [09:46] was just kind of like [09:48] another piece of the puzzle that was getting more and more bizarre and hard to piece through. You know what I mean? Like this whole case has been just like...

[09:58] a mystery. Yeah. And [10:00] What's crazy is when you really dig into this, you see that, like, [10:05] The press were not... [10:07] helping. [10:08] very much during this the media was not helping they rarely do yeah it was not and they were not helping in like a different way with this one where they were making the public feel like the investigators and the task force didn't care oh and that was in fact not true well just the fact that there's a task force shows that they do care yeah like that it just wasn't true they were genuinely working very hard on this case and cared a lot um i mean like we're going to talk about how [10:37] Bob Keppel, like Bob Keppel for life, and interviewing Ted Bundy to try to get information about this.

For people who don't know who's Bob Keppel. Bob Keppel, he was, like, instrumental in the Ted Bundy case. If you know that case, you know Bob Keppel. He also... [10:55] consulted, [10:56] on [10:57] dozens and dozens and dozens of other cases because he's considered just one of the most [11:03] skilled [11:05] and talented investigators ever. Ever. Period. Like, he's, like, he's up there. And he just knows how to... [11:15] track down a serial killer. He really does. Like he just knows how to get in the mind. Like mind bunker. Yeah, he really does.

Like he's, he's pretty fascinating. He actually wrote a book called The River Man. [11:26] about this case? [11:27] And, like, how he... [11:29] talked to Ted Bundy about it. And as we're going to get into it, but he was also trying to get [11:34] a confession out of Ted Bundy for some of his own unsolved cases. He was working overtime. He was working double time. And he, and I'll give you some stuff to listen to or watch afterwards too, because... [11:46] It's a fascinating part, like little deviation off this case that actually had...

[11:52] a little bit of stuff that, you know, [11:54] Like, like what, because Ted Bundy is a piece of shit and a serial killer and a sexual sadist. Yeah. [12:01] All of the above. He did know some of how this guy's mind worked. Yeah. He did not do it for any other reason but to try to get a stay of execution. He was not... [12:10] He was just scared to die. Yeah. It was no remorse. There was no sudden... [12:15] up of conscience or wanting to be a human being or caring about these women or their families.

He was just... [12:20] doing it for his own good, just so you know that ahead of time. But some of it, he stumbled into some right answers. So there was that. But yeah, this is a very frustrating case. But if the letter was genuinely from the killer, like it ended up being, [12:34] It did appear to indicate a very high number of victims, more than what they knew. Yeah. Yeah. [12:40] Now, Reichert and the others barely had time to even consider... [12:43] all of this when the next victim was already discovered.

And this actually kicked off like kind of a wave of really gruesome discoveries that lasted about three months. Oh, wow. Like Missy Plager, 19 year old Lisa Yates had gone missing in late 1983. Yeah. [13:01] When she didn't arrive to pick up her niece, Veronica, for a picnic on December 23rd, her family simply... [13:08] They just thought, like, maybe Lisa had kind of, like, taken off or something had come up. She had taken off before. So, like... [13:14] It wasn't unusual. It was possible. [13:17] Veronica recalled later, she was young and beautiful, gifted, loving, and funny.

I thought she was so cool. Oh. Which is like, oh, it's really sad. On March 13th, 1984, Lisa's remains were discovered in a shallow grave out by Interstate 90, not far from where Missy Plager's body was found. It took several months to identify the remains, but in late September, Bill Haglund from the ME's office was able to identify these remains using dental records. It was. [13:44] One week later on March 21st, Bob Van Dyke, who was the groundskeeper of three baseball fields out near the airport, [13:51] was very startled [13:53] When his dog came home one afternoon...

[13:55] carrying what looked to be human bones. [13:59] He said, I knew what it was, but I hoped that it wasn't. Oh, man. The discovery was reported to the police who searched the area where the leg was discovered and turned up an entire human skeleton. Oh. [14:11] The ME estimated this victim to have been in her early teens, but due to the advanced state of decomposition, it was pretty impossible to tell cause of death, which is what he counted on. [14:22] Yeah. Based on the state of the skeleton when it was found, she was estimated to have died roughly one year earlier.

Wow. [14:29] Like... [14:30] He really picked places, and we'll get into it. That's one thing that when they talk to Ted Bundy, he says he does not want these bodies found. He's not trying to... [14:39] To leave them out in the open. Yeah, he doesn't want to be caught. He doesn't want this to be caught. He goes by the airport so frequently. Yeah, and it's like but he's going into like places around it where you're not really gonna be unless you're kind of [14:51] Unless you're already there for some reason.

Yeah, exactly. Now, under the circumstances and the timeline, it seemed entirely likely that the remains found in the woods were those of a Green River victim. But the task force had nothing to work with and there was no one on the list of missing women who was in their early teens. [15:08] Now, tragically, these remains would sit unidentified and unclaimed for nearly 40 years. Oh, my God. Until 2021. Wow, that recently? And it was only when a random check of DNA in the DNA Doe Project database found a match. Oh, that's awful.

And this is a teenager. Yeah, the skeleton was that of... [15:31] 14 year old [15:33] Wendy Stevens. [15:34] How did she go unclaimed for so long? She was a runaway from Denver, Colorado, who disappeared in March 1983. And it's believed that after running away from Denver, she made her way, obviously, to Seattle, where she crossed paths with the killer. [15:49] By the time all the victims were identified, she turned out to be the youngest victim. Yeah. And the reason she wasn't identified was because she was from Denver, probably. So it just didn't add up.

Now, given that the killer had a history of dumping multiple victims in a single location, a major search of the baseball fields and surrounding area was done the following day. And it wasn't long before the search team found another victim. [16:14] Seattle search dog handler Chris Clifford said, these hunts are real depressing. [16:19] He had a bloodhound who was named Sorrow. Oh. Because he was used to find... [16:26] Oh, that's like really sad for Sorrow too. And they were contacted to help the task force with these searches. He later said, Sorrow had this funny reaction.

When he finds something that's dead, he gets real tentative. He just stops. I came around the corner and saw him standing there frozen. Oh, no. [16:44] Now, Sorrow had discovered the remains of 18-year-old Cheryl Wims, who'd gone missing from downtown Seattle 10 months before. [16:51] on the night of her birthday. Oh, man. Or, excuse me, the night before her birthday. Everyone who knew Cheryl had kind of a hard time picturing her engaging in sex work. Okay. According to her boss at a local restaurant where she worked as a busser, Cheryl was, quote, quiet, conservative, and conscientious, which just didn't immediately ring as a personality that would succeed on the streets.

Right. Like, quiet, like, not very... Put yourself out there. Yeah. Outgoing. You know. Still, her mother acknowledged that Cheryl had [17:21] in recent months, so it was possible. [17:23] That she had. Okay. She's like, I don't know. Now, just one week later on March 31st, yet another dump site was discovered. This time out on Star Lake Road. [17:33] To the surprise of the task force members, the new site was not new at all. [17:38] It was just a few dozen yards from where they'd found the yet-to-be-identified remains of Gail Matthews six months earlier.

[17:47] And they were like, [17:48] Why did the killer leave Gail's body so close to the road, but the others deeper into the woods? [17:54] And they were wondering, had he been forced to abandon his plan and leave her in an inopportune location? Like he didn't want to leave her there. Because it seems like that had happened a couple of times. That he got like spooked by something or like something happened that he had to do it quick. Now, whatever the reason, the Star Lake Road site turned out to be one of the largest and honestly the most heartbreaking the detectives had discovered.

[18:16] If you know, [18:18] This is shocking how many... [18:21] remains were found here. Yards from where Gail's body had been discovered, they discovered the remains and they were also young. Yeah. Yeah. [18:28] They discovered the remains of 16-year-old Terry Milligan, disappeared August 28, 1982. [18:34] 17-year-old Dolores Williams, gone March 8, 1983. 17-year-old Sander Gabbert disappeared April 17, 1983. And 18-year-old Alma Smith disappeared March 3, 1983. [18:48] All of them in the same area. And all teenagers. And all teenagers. [18:53] At the same time, just off Highway 410, which is a short distance from the Star Lake site, [18:59] They found a fifth set of remains, those of 26-year-old Debbie Abernathy, who went missing September 5th, 1983.

Oh, my God. And that's on top of Gail. That's on top of, it's like, he also just leaves bodies everywhere. Yeah. Like, anybody, like, clusters them into places. But, like, so many. Right. Right. [19:18] And by the time the site had been fully excavated and all the victims removed, the list of Green River victims was double the size of the list of missing women. [19:27] Oh my God. So they didn't even have, they didn't even account for everybody who was missing. No. [19:32] With Debbie Abernathy making the 25th victim. I was just going to, I'm so glad you said that because I was like, how many victims are we at?

Debbie had come to Seattle from Waco, Texas and had only been in the city a month before she disappeared. She had been performing sex work to support herself, her three-year-old son and her boyfriend, Henry Maynor. When Debbie didn't return one afternoon, Henry reported her missing. [19:55] That spring, she was among the remains Bill Haglund identified through dental records. [20:00] Now, the discovery of the latest dump site confirmed the task force theory that the killer had preferred dump sites and would go back to them. Like once he found one, he used it to its fullest extent.

Mm hmm. [20:11] He started with the Green River, then the vacant lots around the airport, then the area around Highway 410, and most recently, the baseball fields by Starlake Road. [20:21] Still, the question kept nagging at them. [20:24] Where was he keeping these remains before dumping them? Yeah, because it's like they weren't all there for that long. Multiple bodies at the same time. Yeah, because in many cases, there were several months or even a year between the victim disappearing and when the remains were discovered. And in the case of Terry Milligan, almost two years.

[20:41] And it's not like he... This is so awful to even think about. But it's not like he's preserving the bodies either. They're like skeletons. Where are you keeping... [20:50] decomposing bodies. But that wasn't it. [20:54] If the dates of their disappearances could be the stand-ins for their times of death, he also appeared to be taking victims in clusters. Right. For instance, like Gail Matthews, Andrea Childers, Sandra Gabbert, and Kimi Kai Pizar, excuse me, were all killed within days of one another. [21:13] With Kimi and Sandra disappearing on the same day.

So he picks them both up. Yeah. Now the cluster theory was strengthened again when after the discovery of Alma Smith's remains, the discovery of new victims once again slowed down. [21:30] More than a month passed before the next body was discovered, this time on Jovita Boulevard, a mile or so outside of King County. [21:38] On May 26, 1984, two boys walking in the woods in Pierce County, [21:43] were shocked when they stumbled upon the near-complete skeleton laying in the brush. [21:49] about a thousand feet away from the road. [21:51] Now, despite being in a different jurisdiction, Pierce County investigators...

[21:55] clearly recognized the similarity between the skeleton and the Green River victims. So they called in the task force, luckily. I'm glad nobody was like fighting over jurisdiction. It drives me crazy when egos fuck all this up. [22:08] And especially in that time period, too. I feel like it always happens, but I feel like you hear it so much in these, like, 80s, like, 70s, 80s cases. But they just won't share information because they're like, this is my jurisdiction. It's like, shut up. Stay in your own town. In many cases, the idea of newly discovered victims was a pretty long and arduous process that took months, if not years, to complete due to the level of decomposition and the lack of distinctive features that they could actually go off of.

Yeah. Well, and just, like, the lack of science. [22:38] Everything was a little stagnant. Now, this time, though, there was one highly unusual feature the task force was able to rely on. [22:46] The victim had braces, dental braces. [22:49] But when they checked the missing persons list, none of the young women on the list had braces. [22:55] It was only after the victim's father read about the skeleton in the local paper that he called the task force and reported that he believed this victim could be his daughter. [23:05] 15-year-old Colleen Brockman.

Oh my god. The Emmy compared the teeth to Brockman's dental records and confirmed it was Colleen. [23:13] 15 years old. Her father noticed in the paper and said, I think that's my daughter. That's horrific. I can't even... [23:20] conceive of that. [23:21] I literally can't conceive of that. No. [23:24] Music [23:33] you [23:34] Crash! [23:38] Did a random thumping sound in the middle of the night just keep you up? Or was that something in the bushes? Stop letting your mind wander about what's outside your house at night and get peace of mind with a home security system that can identify threats on your property that probably sound a little different than my ad-libbing.

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Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the Personal Price Plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Head to com to get a quote. Prices are based on rating plans that vary [26:43] availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. [26:49] you [26:50] *music* [26:56] Now, Colleen, it turned out, was like many of the other victims who disappeared over the years. She was a bright and friendly young woman who just had developed a defiant streak when she reached adolescence, and it put her in direct and constant conflict with her parents and her father.

Just prior to her disappearance in late December 1982, Colleen had run away from home a few times, only to return a few days later. [27:19] The last time she ran away on December 28th, she took her clothes and several other personal items, giving her father the impression that this time she might not be coming back so soon. Right. Hoping the introduction of law enforcement might straighten his daughter out. Her father had reported her to the police for stealing some of his things. [27:39] Just trying to like, yeah, scare her straight.

Well, it's like, hopefully they can apprehend her. So she's not on the street. Yeah. You know, like I see, I see that line of thinking. Exactly. But at a time when runaway cases weren't taken very seriously, the report went nowhere. [27:51] And I hope... [27:53] these are the kind of things that I hope they looked at and that that was the change of like we can't just [27:58] ignore these kind of cases. Right. Now among the last people to see Colleen was her childhood friend Bunny, who was surprised to see how the 15-year-old was living at the time.

She said she told me what she was doing and I was instantly terrified for her. She seemed really happy with her new life, though, and she said most of the guys were really nice to her, buying her presents and taking her to dinner. She was pretty naive. I think she thought that meant they loved her in some way. Oh, that's really sad and also really disgusting on the men's part. Yeah, she's [28:28] 15. So you're a pedophile. She's a literal baby. Yep. [28:32] Nearly four months passed before the next batch of victims, the last of 1984, were discovered.

[28:38] On October 12th, a mushroom hunter in the woods near Enumclaw found the skeletal remains of Mary Sue Bellow. [28:45] almost a year to the day after she went missing. Mary Sue had been placed on the task force missing list in October of the previous year, [28:52] But she was removed after they received confirmation that she was alive and living in Texas. [28:57] Faye Brooks told a reporter, a detective in Texas said he had seen her. [29:02] though he had not talked to her in early December 1983. [29:06] The discovery of Bellow's body was followed a month later on November 14th by the discovery of the remains of 19-year-old Martina Authorly.

[29:15] who was reported missing in May 1983. [29:17] In 1982, Martina had moved from her parents' home in Tacoma to North Carolina, where she had enrolled in the Army. [29:25] But just six weeks into her stay, she was given a medical discharge. The discharge seemed to derail whatever plans she had for herself, and she soon found herself kind of like... [29:35] a little bit in an aimless rut because obviously she had plans. You know, that's hard. She moved to Hillsborough, Oregon, but from that point on, she became very secretive about her life, sharing very little with her family and, [29:47] Despite keeping in regular contact with them.

Okay. According to author Anne Rule, I don't know if you know her. Heard of her? Yeah. She told them she had a job, but they didn't know what she did. [29:56] Hmm. [29:57] It turned out she had been supporting herself through sex work. When Christmas came and went and they hadn't heard from Martina, her parents reported her missing. [30:06] In April, her name was added to the list of missing women. And like Mary Sue Bellow, her remains were found in the woods in Enamclaw. [30:13] She was identified through dental records.

It's just so sad to think that so many of these women and teenage girls were just struggling so much at the end of their lives. That's the thing. Like that they were just. It's just so sad. They were like in the worst place. Yeah. Now, again, like I said before, I'm going to get into the Ted Bundy stuff now. Okay. Like I said before, the media actually was a big foe during this case. They did put it in the minds of the public that investigators didn't give a shit. Right. [30:43] they actually put a lot into this case.

Some of them ended up hospitalized because of stress. Like a lot of them were. I mean, think about how long it went on for and how many victims are finding at each. And they can't, [30:55] do anything like they're trying everything they feel responsible i'm sure they were having people go undercover as sex workers to try to like lure him out like that's you know women like fresh out of college like starting this stuff like and they were willing to do it like people they were giving it all they could it's not like they were just like oh fuck it whatever right well and i think a lot of times because we even see this in cases now it's like when things are being kept close to the chest for

[31:21] yeah real reasons people can't rap like the public yeah has a hard time wrapping their head yeah because you want to know and i it's and it's naturally natural and normal but it's like you you have to step back yeah [31:32] And no. And obviously things got bad enough that they were, and they were far enough away from getting any real lead that they took an offer from one of the worst men to ever live. Yeah. Ted Bundy. A straight up serial killer. No, Dave Reichert had come to see Bob Keppel for his help because he knew Bob Keppel, [31:48] did this shit was like a genius he's gonna if somebody's gonna find this guy it's gonna be bob keppel um he again he's if you have read the ted bundy case then you know bob keppel he's a great detective so reichert knew this green river killer situation was getting out of control and he was doing what he could to bring in the best minds that he could imagine having that reputation like bob keppel [32:12] I know.

Like, if anybody's going to catch him, it's going to be bomb. It's going to be you. I feel like... [32:15] my shit doesn't stink it right i'd be like [32:18] you can't hurt me yeah like i like i'm bob peckle what do you mean [32:24] And like I said before, Keppel was brought in on a lot of cases like this just because of, you know, he this was his area of expertise. And he was actually ranked as the lead criminal investigator for the Washington State Attorney General's office. Humble drag. Keppel became chief consultant of the Green River Task Force because of this.

[32:44] Now, at the time, Bundy was in prison in Florida. [32:47] And there were eight young women and girls who were murdered in 1974. [32:52] that were still not being labeled as his victims, even though they were. We know them to be like they have now since been connected. [33:03] And again, Keppel just couldn't charge him because he was sitting in a Florida prison cell. So it was driving him crazy. They were Linda Healy, Donna Manson, Susan Rancourt, Kathy Parks, Brenda Ball, Georgian Hawkins, [33:18] Janice Ott and Denise Naslund. [33:20] um, [33:21] Bundy actually was the one who reached out to them.

[33:25] Oh, really? They did not reach out to him. Looking for the opportunity of this day. They were not like, hey, we should go ask Ted Bundy about this. Like, that wasn't anybody's idea. Right. Ted Bundy reached out to them in October 1984 because he was reading about the Green River Killer murders, he said. And he saw an opportunity. And he saw an opportunity. Because this 1984, I think... [33:47] Bob Keppel's son actually states it in this documentary. I was watching Dialogue with the Devil, I think it is. I'll link it.

He says, like, this was the beginning of his, like... [33:57] play to try to make his execution stop. So... [34:02] He sent a letter to the task force saying that he had some information that he thought could, quote, prove useful in apprehending the person or persons responsible for what are referred to as the Green River murders. He also said he would only help if they didn't tell anyone outside of the task force that he was helping. Oh, no media, nothing. He didn't want anyone knowing this. [34:22] And he said his offer had to stay secret to only them.

[34:27] He also said he would only talk about the Green River Killer and not about anything else. Do you think that was because he's a rat, technically? Yeah, and I think he... [34:37] Yeah, he didn't want to be looked at as and he's doing this to not die. Yeah. And he doesn't want everyone knowing that he's desperately trying to not die. And that he's now willing to become a rat. Exactly. To avoid it. Yeah. He also said so what he said about it was, quote, we will handle this thing in a straightforward manner or we don't handle it at all.

And it's like, you have no power, babe. Well, that's the thing, too. I think he was very much looking for some kind of control. Adorable that you think you have even an ounce of power here. [35:07] it this way or not at all they could just be like not at all thanks bye yeah like what what is this about the execution chair bud like i know it's i know they haven't caught him yet but it's like they are detectives and they're working on it and they're working on it and bob's here they would do it and bob is here now okay bob's here now he knew that also he knew that bob keppel [35:28] had been put on as one of the leads on the task force.

So this worked out. Like, they were like nemesis. Yeah. They were like, now Keppel saw this obviously as an opportunity to not only see if maybe he did have some insight. [35:42] that could help them catch the Green River Killer. They said, what the fuck? We've never done this before. Might as well try it. But also, maybe he could tease some information out of him about those unsolved cases in Washington. He said, I can catch two birds, one stone here. Yeah. The worst part is that he was... [35:59] It was definitely him having like a free therapy session where he could confess without confessing.

Okay. Okay. [36:04] You could say everything that he felt... [36:07] and all his motives and what compelled him to do what he was doing. [36:12] but he could do it in a... [36:13] Almost like an if I did it way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can say it. [36:17] Without saying it. And I'm also applying it to this other killer. Yeah, it's this guy that I'm talking about. Right. And he happens to just have the exact same MO that I have. Right. Right. [36:25] He would say things like, you know, blah, blah, blah.

And then he'd be like, he probably isn't telling anyone what he's done. And then he would add into it. I certainly wouldn't. [36:33] And I was like, you're talking about you. Like he said he wouldn't. [36:37] talk about himself during this. He's like, I'm only talking about Green River. But then Bob Keppel and Dave Riker were able to get him to talk about himself without even realizing he was. Okay. [36:47] Now, [36:48] And I love it because he's such his ego. [36:50] And this is like so fragile, but so overwhelming at the same time.

Like he said, I'm the only one in possession of information and that's just the way it is. It's now or never. I mean, not really. Like I'm sitting there being like, it's now or never. Shut the fuck up. Yeah. You're about to die. Okay. Get out of here. [37:08] And so a couple of the things that really struck me in the conversation were... [37:13] they're just very spooky and chilling and it really makes you think i heard some of it when you were watching and i was like this is yeah one of the things he said was [37:21] I don't know what it is, if there's something about the Pacific Northwest that seems to encourage this kind of activity.

[37:28] - Several things. - No, I think it was that you had a head injury as a child. [37:34] Yeah. [37:35] You mean serial murder? Right. Like that kind of you mean sexual serial murder? Right. That something about the weather. I don't think it's the weather. Yeah. Influencing people. I don't think that it's just dreary. Like, I don't think that's doing it. Yeah. Like he's wild in this. The brain. He said at one point, I mean, how do you detach yourself and say this guy did these things, which I consider to be horrible and repulsive and just really try to get into this [38:05] barriers.

[38:06] That like chilled me to my bone. Oh, so he's like, I don't find these things repulsive. Yeah, like he's saying like, you look at it and say like, wow, this is horrible and repulsive. That's not how I work. He's like, I don't have those barriers because... [38:16] I did it. It's so chilling that people... Like, how are you real? Well, and it's like you're... [38:23] Obviously, like he's a monster, but it's like at the end of the day, like he is a human. [38:27] And it's weird that some humans are built different.

Yeah. Just like, like they, they either don't ever have those boundaries or they somehow lose sight of them. Lose them along the way. And it's like, so I'm just like, how does that happen? I say it every time we talk about a case like this, but I'm just like, how does that work? No. No. [38:46] Some of the things that... [38:48] They had to admit. Like, obviously... [38:51] It was easy for Ted Bundy. [38:53] to come out of this [38:55] looking like he was able to provide insight. Right. Right. [38:59] But the only reason he was able to do that is because he's the same kind of sick fuck that this guy is.

So you can't give him any kind of pat on the back or any kind of like, oh, he did provide something. No, he just said what he does. He just knows. And he happens to be the same kind of nasty that this guy is. It's like it just worked out that they were the same. They were the same kind of fucking losers as the other one. So some of the things he said that did turn out to be correct was... [39:26] that he believed that, you know, the Green River Killers searched these places out and where he dumped the victims and he would go during the day and night.

[39:34] This would not be accidental, like him coming, you know, just finding a random place. He looked them out ahead of time. [39:41] to make sure he could do this. Everything we know about serial killers, that also just kind of makes sense. [39:46] It doesn't for all of them. Some of them are fucking sloppy as hell. And they just dump people wherever they can. Or they leave them where they do it. This is... [39:55] This is very specific to this type of serial killer. Okay. This is very specific to, like, sexual sadists and, like...

[40:03] They're planners. They... [40:05] are going to come back. So they want to know where this is. Exactly. They want to know that nobody's going to be there. No one's going to be there. They have, they have a plan. Like they, they don't, and these kind of, [40:16] serial killers [40:19] usually... [40:21] aren't trying to get caught. So they're not doing the, like, I'm just going to leave this body on the side of the road or like where somebody could stumble upon it. Right. They would like to keep doing this and they would like to keep coming back to these corpses.

Yeah. [40:32] They don't want this to stop. So they really make it an effort to make sure they scope these dump sites out. Was the Green River Killer the same as Ted in the way that he would come back? [40:43] Seems like it. Okay. Mm-hmm. [40:45] We'll get there. [40:47] He said he's likely... [40:49] gone back to these places several times afterwards and he was definitely talking about himself there like that was easy for him to come up with because he's just talking about himself right he said they were killed uh very likely shortly after they were abducted uh-huh and he does it in the quickest and easiest way possible he's not

[41:08] getting crazy with it. He's just trying to dispose of this person. He pointed out that he will keep doing what quote is working. [41:16] He pointed out that killing sex workers makes it easier for him because... [41:20] Simply because they were accessible and they were harder to investigate from a law enforcement perspective. [41:26] He said he's likely just approaching them like a John. [41:30] Or someone like, or just offering money, drugs. He said things these women likely quote unquote need. [41:36] He's non-threatening. He probably uses a ruse or a lure like Bundy did with the broken arm and the help me to my car.

Coming off very non-threatening. I'm just Ted, you know. He said the Green River Killer has an intense, extreme kind of need to do this. He said that just doesn't go away. [41:53] He said he believed he didn't want to be caught. Like I said, he, you know, has been trying to improve his dump sites. They asked him if it was possible if he left them because there was a couple of times where they would find like partial remains like one victim, they only found the skull. And he said, was it possible that he did that to see if they could find the rest of the body?

Oh, okay. And he said... [42:16] So Bundy said he didn't think so. He said he has plenty of other dub sites and and his disgusting words, because this is how he thinks and it's how the Green River Killer thinks, too. He said, quote, if he wants to get his rocks off, he'll go there. [42:29] Oh. [42:30] That's how he, like, and he just said it like... [42:33] You're right in the stone? Like, is what it is. Yeah, like, you got this? [42:35] Okay. He pointed out that he felt that the Green River Killer was broadening his victim pool to include runaways.

[42:42] And the task force later said they had actually already come to that conclusion themselves behind closed doors. [42:48] They asked him how long he will do this. And this answer was chilling because he said until he gets caught. And he was saying, I would keep doing it. [42:57] Like he was essentially saying, I would be doing this right now if I didn't get caught. Well, I mean, look at him, how many times he tried to escape so that he could do it again. Yeah. Yeah. [43:05] He mentioned that the guy was familiar with the environments he was, quote, working in and that he likely tracked these women from where they worked and lived.

Yeah. [43:13] He spoke about how the fatal link between sex and violence had clearly been made here. And he said no one can fight that. [43:19] Like he made it seem like once you're in that place where you've linked those two, you're never getting out of it. I mean, that kind of makes sense. He said he's definitely going back to the bodies to check out the condition of them or to, quote, get whatever kicks he gets out of it. He mentioned there was a certain level of possessiveness where the corpse could be just as important as the live victim.

[43:39] He said it was a physical possession and ownership. [43:41] That is so dark. And it's exactly him. Yeah. That, like, he's talking about him, but he is... [43:47] describing the Green River Killer. It's like they're collecting. Yeah. [43:50] When asked whether the size of the task force would get to him, like make – the size of the task force had exploded. They made it really big. And he said, would that kind of scare him, kind of make him want to get out of town? Slow down or – [44:09] He said, I don't think it's going to make him leave town.

And he said it was entirely possible, actually, that he was getting an ego charge out of, quote, beating you people. That makes sense. And staying ahead of you. [44:19] Like as horrifying as it is, it makes sense. His advice was that anything they could do to make the Green River Killer nervous would be the thing to catch him because he said nervous men make mistakes. Right. Right. [44:30] He said, make him feel less capable. [44:33] He said publicity makes him nervous. [44:36] He said he, he, and he said, [44:38] personally this is what he put his own personal thing onto it he said i don't like my name being in the papers and i was like you love publicity actually yeah shut the fuck up you opted to represent yourself it's like you're a theatrical fuck you didn't like publicity when you got caught yeah exactly when everybody was like oh ted's gross i was like babe you wanted to be a politician you don't like publicity you represented yourself in your trial right that's what i get the fuck [45:08] Yeah, okay.

[45:09] But he said he believes this guy does not like publicity, and he was likely right. Interesting, though, because, like, he went out of his way to send a letter. Mm-hmm. [45:18] You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, do you see where that kind of contradicts itself? I think. [45:23] Yeah, because I think he's a bullshitter here. Right. I think... [45:27] He just wanted to look like I'm not doing... That's why he made sure to say, like, don't go to the media with me doing this. Yeah. Because, like... [45:34] I hate publicity.

That's not who Ted is. Like he's just sitting there being like, I just do this out of kindness of my evil, evil heart. Right. But now, yeah, it's like the Green River Killer... [45:45] went out of his way. I think he saw almost that [45:48] that they weren't getting anywhere and it like annoyed him almost so he was like hey have you thought about all this like look at these because again it goes back to the ego part of it all where it's like they do want to see something in the paper about themselves that's why to add to like you're not catching me and that's why you're putting on information about me and that's why i think it's like they can't be easily shoved into this little box like there's little nuances yeah

[46:12] That, like, I think Ted Bundy thinks he knows all of them. And, like, this is the way all of them run. And I know. And it's like, you can't know that because they're all going to have their little... [46:21] nuances yeah yeah i almost said quirks but that's like too cute yeah there are little nuances is right yeah uh [46:30] And he they were looking at a man named Melvin Foster as one of the suspects. And they asked him, like, what do you think of that guy? Yeah. [46:40] And he said he thought the attention on him was actually giving the real Green River Killer a boost of ego, saying like, look, they don't have anything.

I'm home free, which might have been true. And that's why there was an uptick in the discoveries. Now, this is also where it got crazy during this interview, because, again, I suggest you watch it. It's very interesting. This is when he was like. [47:01] Listen. [47:03] I can tell you why I did it. I can tell you why he did it. And they're like, whoa, why? Why? [47:07] And he said, [47:09] Porn. [47:10] It's just porn. I was a totally normal guy. [47:13] And then porn just turned me into Ted Bundy.

[47:16] Yep. [47:17] Ted. Not my fault. Not my fault. Not my, not my sweet little baby eyes getting, getting just... [47:24] forced to watch porn and then turn into a serial killer also dead i'm sorry i'm [47:29] your childhood was like kind of fucked and also you're just an evil fuck right like it's just like there's like there's a lot at work here so to just chalk it up to porn is nuts yeah [47:39] Because there were many things that went into the making of Ted Bundy, which may have already began.

Yeah. [47:45] In the womb, perhaps? I think it was because he was real little slipping knives under his aunt's mattress. Yeah, he was a strange kid. But then there's [47:54] He grew up thinking his mom was his sister. The head injuries. There's a lot to play with there. And some people are just born evil. Exactly. It's just... [48:05] that it's not because you watched porn that you suddenly turn from a completely normal child and are human into right a sadist the worst serial killer that the world has ever known like i don't know but then on the other side of things i'm sure if you're already ted bundy and you watch crazy porn that's not gonna help yeah that's not gonna help it's only gonna exacerbate the issue but that's definitely not but it's not who he is and he that was his whole ploy at the end of his [48:35] church let's well it's just like everybody look at me as a victim it was like no it was very timely though because there was like a huge thing going on yeah like going after porn latching onto anything right but he tried to put it in here and it was like babe no yeah no like we're not putting this we're not seeing the green river killer watch some porn and then decided to do all this like no and so [48:59] He did that.

And they just kind of did the eye roll thing. Like KK Ted. And they were like, yeah, this isn't going to help you. Like, we're not like, I don't know why you're telling me this. And then they were like, [49:08] Because they had asked him, like, is there any way... [49:10] that you can think of, just see what you'd say. Yeah. That we could draw him out of the woodwork. What would you think? What would Ted do? You know. WWTD. Yeah, there you go. But... [49:20] And he said, all right, it's going to sound...

[49:23] kind of crazy. [49:24] And I'm sure they were like, I bet. Well, in the actual thing, Bob Keppel was like, we braced ourselves for what Ted Bundy found crazy. They were like, do we want to hear? He said, listen. [49:37] I am willing to bet. [49:39] that this guy loves. [49:40] Slasher flicks. [49:42] Because we're also going to pin it on that now. And I said, excuse me. And they said... [49:46] He said, okay, so this is what you're going to do. [49:49] You're going to put together. [49:50] a slasher [49:52] Film.

[49:53] festival. [49:54] Not Ted just trying to enjoy summer ween. And then... [49:58] you are going to film. [49:59] Every single... [50:01] innocent person that attends said slasher film festival. [50:06] And then you're going to go through. [50:08] You're going to figure out who it is. And they said, first of all, I have several questions. One, what? Two... [50:14] What would that do? We don't have anything to compare it to. Right. Why would what? Like, we're just going to see him and we'll know. We're just going to. Is he going to be like, by the way, I'm the Green River Killer.

Like, does he have a thing that says, hello, I'm the Green River Killer? Like. [50:28] We're just looking at random faces. Ted said, look for the vibe. He said, you know what? I'm an idea, man. I'm not trying to think this further. But then they said, three... [50:39] you can like scary movies. [50:41] and not violent movies and not be a sexual serial murderer um for that's highly illegal you can't just take pictures of people going into a movie with no probable cause and then just say one of those is the green river killer you can't do that and bring that to a judge for for an arrest warrant so they were like

[51:00] Yeah, I don't think we're going to do that. At one point, Dave Reichert, it's literally in like you can hear it on the film. Dave Reichert was so shocked that he was suggesting this like was like, you are such an idiot that he accidentally like nudged the recorder off the table. Like you hear it like crash to the ground and then they have to put it back on because he was so like, [51:21] What? [51:23] So... [51:24] And then at one point, so they hear this and they're like, [51:27] Wow.

[51:28] That's an idea. That's a real idea. And then Bob Keppel was like, [51:35] I knew one thing about, cause he knows Ted Bundy and he knows these fucks. He said, I knew a well-placed John, [51:42] was going to get him right back on track because he was now leading us down. He's having fun with this. Yeah, he's just he's telling you to start a slasher film festival. Like he's having a blast. Ted's just doing community outreach. So he said, I can do this so easily. [51:54] So, Bob. [51:55] Keppel leaned back in his chair and just did one little yawn.

[52:00] Oh, the time is a little long. [52:01] I don't know. We've been sitting here for a while. And Ted... [52:04] On the camera, on the video, you can hear him say, like, he laughs and says, am I boring you? [52:09] It got him immediately. Like, he knew... It won't even take a second yawn. One yawn, and this fucker's ego will be so crushed... [52:19] At the idea of me being bored. One, I'm obsessed with that. And two, it's very Butcher Legacy. I know. It's very Butcher Legacy. I didn't realize how much of this kind of personality.

Yeah, I don't want to make any spoilers, but wow. Yeah, there is definitely...