JRE MMA Show #181 with Justin Gaethje & Trevor Wittman

[00:00] The Joe Rogan experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Gentlemen, first of all, thank you for being here. I couldn't wait to talk to you. [00:16] Congratulations on one of the most epic accomplishments in the history of combat sports, and that's not an understatement. [00:22] I mean, it might be an understatement. I mean, it's not an overstatement. It's perfect. That was one of the greatest nights I've ever experienced of watching anything in my life. It was amazing. [00:32] and have you cap it off and win.

[00:34] the title when you're facing a guy that everybody thought was at least number two pound for pound. It was like him and Islam are number one and number two. [00:43] And... [00:44] Some odds had you at 6-1, which I thought was very disrespectful. I thought, like, this is crazy. Like, 6-1 is crazy. Like, Ilya is really good, but so is Justin. This is kind of nuts. Like, to have you win the way you won in front of the fucking White House? Yeah. Yeah. [01:04] How does it feel? [01:07] Oh, you know, it's really not real yet.

[01:10] I was expecting to have like a... [01:12] an internal sense of relief that, like, I don't have something to chase. Because I was always chasing this belt. And I was expecting to wake up with, like, some kind of natural... [01:24] release of pressure, but I don't know. I don't feel that. As the days go by, every day, I feel a little bit more, a little bit more. Two days ago, my dad was like, you know, what was it like waking up being the champion? And I'm like, [01:37] I was like, I haven't even thought about that.

[01:40] And then I was on the shitter like 10 minutes later and I was sitting there thinking about it. I was like, wow, I'm the fucking champion. It's fucking crazy. And yeah, it's just – I mean I've just been on the grind lately. [01:54] For so many years now. My dad dropped me off 19 years ago in Colorado. I knew nobody to wrestle. And yeah, to see where I'm at now is just absolutely incredible. I mean, there's really no way to explain... [02:08] How or why? [02:10] you know, or like why I deserve it or what, I mean, I worked my ass off.

I have made mistakes, you know, I've done things the wrong way, but I've always corrected and got back on the path. And, you know, I think the coaches, the mentors, but mostly the coaches that I've been, you know, the team that I have around me is a huge reason why I was able to stay on track and just keep moving forward and keep trusting that, you know, I belong in the top of the league. [02:40] Well, you've clearly shown it throughout your career. And having a great coach like Trevor, one of the reasons why I wanted to bring you in, Trevor, is because you guys have a very unique relationship.

First of all, I love the YouTube series, The Art of Violence. Fantastic. And what's great is watching you two guys work together and, Trevor, you being very acutely aware of when to pull them back, when to ramp it up, when to push. [03:10] You guys know each other so well. You've seen him perform so many times. You've seen him fight and perform in the gym that you know where he's at all the time. And having that sense of where your fighter is at any given time in camp because you know him so well, boy, that's a giant advantage.

[03:28] It is. [03:30] Hold on. [03:32] Thank you. [03:33] Testes, testes. Yeah, I think that's a huge advantage is knowing your athlete. And, you know, I. [03:42] Been doing this for a long period of time, but there's lots of coaches out there that consider their fighters their friends. I do consider them one of my best friends, but I put myself more in like a father position of I need to know when to tell them the truth. And I've got myself in trouble with that with fighters where you tell them the truth so hard that you have to let them go.

[04:02] Like a child, like, hey, if we're not in the same beliefs, go live life and see how it is. And then when you return, I'm still going to love you. Having that type of thing where I have to be dead honest for your career, not because it helps us now and it feels good right now at the moment. I have to look at that from the time that we start and we talk about, you know, what are his goals? And then my job is to... [04:24] Be an advisor, be a mentor to get him to that place as best as I can because these are his goals.

And I want to support those. And at the beginning of his career, his goals were to be the most violent guy out there, the most remembered. The guy that every time someone bought a ticket, they remembered Justin Gaethje selling that show. And then it turned into, no, I want to have this belt. And that was hard because we did go and not get the belt twice. And, you know, it's so cool to be in kind of those scenarios. [04:54] Where it's like, damn, you had two opportunities. Now it's never going to happen.

And that's what life is. Life is one of those things that you keep getting up and chase your goals. You never know how it's going to happen. And, yes, you want to dream and you want to have a plan. But I'll tell you right now, through all the times that I've had championship fighters in business and in life, [05:16] The plans never work. You always have to adjust them. But it's that dream and that vision to get you to the top of the stairs. You have to get up each one of those steps.

So, you know, Justin went out there and wrote a story that I don't think will ever be forgotten. And he did it one round at a time. And that's what impresses me because his mindset. [05:33] I love the mental game. I love to talk about the mental game. Even like Ilya. Ilya is a special guy with how he uses his mental, the secret. If I see it, I believe it. It'll happen. [05:45] To a point, you know, it's like I always tell people, like, if you want if you go down the ice cream aisle and you're like, hey, I don't know what ice cream I want.

You're going to stand there and go, oh, that one looks good. That one looks good. That one looks better. The people that are like, I want mint chocolate chip. You get in there, you get it done. You grab that mint chocolate chip and you walk out very similar to Ilya's last three fights. He went out there and he he he demanded what he wanted. His confidence got him through that. [06:07] But it makes it very hard when you get that stale, nasty, rotten milk, fucking mint chocolate chip. So you start to go, oh, shit, what is going to happen now?

So I think the relationship that we have is me guiding him, me pulling him back at the Strictly situation. Hey, let's pull back a little bit. Let's focus on what's going on. I don't want no distractions. And having someone – and he trusts that I care about him. I love him to death. I love his family. Like our relationship is so strong, and I need that with my athletes. [06:37] Okay. [06:38] 100, I say honored, but more importantly, humbled. [06:42] by someone who I've never worked mental with, who... [06:45] Shows me different ways to the mental game of fighting, which I feel I'm very high level with and [06:51] is it's something that if you put yourself around people that make you better, [06:56] This guy makes me better daily, and I'm very grateful for that.

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com slash rogan that's zip com slash rogan meet your match on zip recruiter you said something [07:56] expectations. And you said you don't have any expectations when you fight. That way, you don't get thrown off. [08:03] Yeah, I mean, it's huge. I mean, my expectations come from my hard work. Obviously, I expect my body to perform better. [08:13] I understand... [08:14] Thank you. [08:15] that I've trained my mind to and, you know, maybe the narcissistic tendencies in me love. [08:22] showing off and performing in front of [08:26] thousands of people on that stage.

That's what I love the most about this. And that's what my personality, I'm very competitive. I want to win. [08:37] But I'm never going to lie to myself. And that's how I've never had a coach... [08:41] in my entire career, since four years old at wrestling, have to pull me aside and talk about the mental aspect of competition, because it's always been so natural to me. I'm not sure if... [08:54] Thank you. [08:55] I'm not sure if it's because they... [08:58] They see that I'm doing good and that they agree with my approach mentally or they don't understand what's going on or – [09:08] But I've just always been so comfortable and so content with my situation of, you know, this is the competition, this is the game.

You know, I'm very competitive. I'm very petty. I take everything personal. And, yeah, when I go in there with – I have gone in with expectations, and it's – [09:27] I said it before the fight, you know, Aaliyah, like, I said so many true things to him. And I think it was such a, it's such an asset to tell someone the brutal truth, especially someone like him, because it pushes them farther away from the truth. You know, even if I tell him the exact truth and exactly what's going to happen and, you know, you're making a mistake by having all these expectations.

And when we go to round two and when we go to round three and it's not going as you predicted it or wanted it to or expected it to, then where do you go from there? [09:57] said that exact thing to him and then that pushed him farther away from it and [10:02] You know, I... [10:02] It's almost like he wanted to prove you wrong. [10:04] Yeah, he wanted to prove himself right. Yeah. You know, and he was unwilling to be open to opinions and – because obviously I don't know him.

He knows him better than himself. But, you know, I – [10:16] I got here because I am coachable. I got here because I listen. I use every... [10:22] Posted yesterday. Every person. Placed or thing. That has happened to me. Or for me. Has ultimately. Has ultimately. [10:28] molded my mind and my body to be able to deal with [10:32] the situation that happened on Sunday night. And, you know, I can, I can pull so much experience from the past, my losses, my wins, setbacks, failures, accomplishments. I mean, there's so much to learn from it, you know, every day is a learning experience.

And I, [10:49] constantly try to learn and be better. And I don't know why I'm able to... [10:56] Perform like that. I think I just think it's who I am [10:59] You know, when I say I wanted to be the most exciting fighter ever, it's not that I wanted to be the most exciting fighter ever. The thought of that was fucking cool to me. [11:08] You know, but I was just... [11:11] being me. And I've been blessed to be able to, you know, through my childhood, through coming from a small town, through having...

[11:20] You know, [11:22] unwavering support from my family and my friends and my coaches and my teachers. [11:28] And everybody from you know, it's just crazy to to be able to come out on top and [11:34] I mean, it's just crazy. [11:36] I [11:36] One of the things I think was a giant factor in the fight is that you have been in wars. [11:43] You've been in a bunch of wars. Yeah. And Ilya really had only had some rough moments against Jai Herbert. You know, Yusuf Zalao gave him some problems, but it was nothing serious.

The wars that you've been in, these just down and dirty brawls that you've been in, you're comfortable with the back and forth. You're comfortable with enduring. You know that you're not going to break. [12:13] You can endure. I don't think he'd ever experienced that before. So when you didn't break in the second round, and I think he made a mistake, and I think you're correct about that. You said he made a mistake by going to the ground. Absolutely. And he hurt you to the body. I told Trevor yesterday, I think...

[12:28] You know, um... [12:30] Him hurting to my body was one of the main reasons I won. You know, when he hit me, when I dropped, it wasn't the first time he hit me in the body. That was probably like the fourth or fifth one. And he had landed some really clean shots, and he could probably sense that I was... [12:45] in trouble and hurt. [12:48] That fact made him dump everything because it was his last chance to take me out. And he almost did take me out. But when I went down, it's always easy to make these decisions in hindsight.

But when I went down, he's had way more submissions than he has knockouts. And so for him not to have that belief that he's going to be able to go down there, especially with the Khabib fight, especially with the Charles Laver fight, especially with all the negativity around my grappling, I think he would have been foolish. [13:18] Because I would have stood back up. I would have stood back up and he would have charged forward, tried to finish me. I would have jumped on his legs. I would have pulled guard.

He was going to end up on top of me no matter what. I wasn't going to sit there and trade with him again. [13:31] front rolled into grappling situations or whatever, I would have made him cover me. And... [13:36] But I think me getting hit is what made him completely blow his, you know, Shane Carwin-esque. Blow his tank. Yeah. And, you know, go for the win. And I think that was the choice he had to make because it was going to continue to get worse. I beat his ass in the first round.

[13:54] Like, it might have been close on the scorecards. I absolutely took the first round, but the amount of damage that I inflicted in the first round set up the rest of the fight. [14:02] I do think it was a mistake. And you're saying what you're saying is so correct. But what I'm saying is from a standpoint of him – [14:10] demanding it he's going to finish you in the first two [14:13] Understanding the damage that he was taking. He took big risks. He got in there. He kept his hands on your collarbones.

He was landing really good shots. Yeah, that the the two body shots before that that left hook to the liver that the sound it made was crazy. That last one was clean. It was precise and deep, but you could tell it was already there. But if he didn't put that pressure on his self, and this is what I mean by mistake is like when you come out, you have to know that you're going five rounds and you're going five rounds. [14:39] He knew that he had to unleash everything right there.

If he would have been smart in that scenario saying, hey, we got five rounds. Let me step back a little bit. Let me do some damage. But also he's like, hey, let me get you out of there quick. Justin, you know, can't grapple, can't do all these things what a lot of people think, which Justin's a great grappler. And what was so smart about you is when you get tired, you know, [15:01] That's where the worst decisions happen. That's one of my big things is coaching. As we get someone tired and then we make them make bad decisions and then we capitalize on those mistakes.

Justin was able to stay so composed here with being speared to the body. And when you take a liver shot, it is way different than the head shot. A head shot is like taking a shot with your buddies at the bar. It's like, hey, let's go. But you take a body shot. [15:24] You're dying. Like, you're liver-shyder. You feel like you're dying. And Justin... [15:28] All the decisions he made on the ground, from the triangle, from the armbar, from not being flat, so many good decisions were made in that scenario.

And I do think it was a mistake. Obviously, there's so many different ways it could go. But those type of moments in fights are what make fights great, is overcoming obstacles. And he had set that up. He had said it. He's like, hey, I'm going to overcome anything. I'm going out there, put the worst thing out there. Like, what are you going to do to me? I've already been knocked out the last second of a freaking huge fight by Max. [15:58] to me. And that mindset, I think, is something to take away for all the fighters out there that, you [16:04] Always, I love how you say it, expect a war.

Always. Some of the biggest mistakes that I've made with fighters that I had is allowing them to think that they're going to go through this fight easy. And then that fight becomes super hard. You think it's going to be a war, then you're like, hey, it wasn't as bad as I was expecting, even if it was a little bit of a war. They're not going to help them in that moment. Yeah. There's no pulling them out. That's fighting. Fighting is mentality. I look at this like there's techniques out there and there's things like that.

[16:34] It's not the technical piece. [16:36] It's getting back up. And it's okay to get knocked down. I love watching people get knocked down because my favorite part is seeing how they get up. And that to me... [16:45] is why I love fighting. [16:47] It's how people get up. [16:48] Yeah, how they endure and that was the big story of that second round that you figured out a way to get through it and the Change in tempo in the third round was very obvious Because the sprint that you have to make like what Ilya did when he was trying to finish you that he he used so much fucking energy and The great Chael Sonnen once said that if you try to win by knockout and fail you won't win by submission and [17:12] A lot of times that's the case because you know as good as anybody, if you fucking sprint it hard, you wail in the bag with fucking everything you got for two minutes and then they go time.

One minute's not enough. [17:27] It's not enough. Even in preparation. Even two minutes. They were a little tired after they did. Yeah, that was crazy, too. That was crazy, too. We'll talk about that. Preparation for these fights. I'm doing 20, 30, 40-second sprints. [17:40] at most. I mean, that was... [17:43] That was a two-minute sprint for him. Yes. Full out. Full out. Full power. Everything full power. Every punch full power. You can't even train for that. You can't. You've got to have spots. Right. And he didn't. He was just unloading.

I mean, that's a young man with a tremendous amount of confidence because he's a two-division world champion, and he thinks he's going to go down as the greatest of all time. And, hey, he might still. He still could. He might still. What was he, 28? The odds are fucking great. [18:11] against that right now. Because of that loss? I hope he does. I hope he does too. I hope he does. And I know that he has the skill to be a champion again. [18:22] However, same thing with Tony Ferguson. I didn't break Tony Ferguson's confidence.

I... [18:28] changed the perception of his opponent's [18:32] Of him and that is a huge factor when you go in there like who are you fighting? What do you figure? You know before this he was a guy that would that you couldn't get through that you couldn't push through you couldn't survive with and Once I showed people that all you gotta do is get through that Then nobody's ever gonna go in there with thinking that he's unbeatable now, you know, and that that was his I [18:55] That was his... [18:57] identity.

And, you know, that's going to be such a tough task for him to fight people that aren't scared of him. [19:05] That's interesting. That's Mike Tyson in his prime. That's Anderson Silva in his prime where the fight was lost. Yeah, the fight was lost before he got even got in there. Physically, I don't know what the truth is, but all these reports are that he has two fractured orbitals and a broken nose. [19:25] just that alone, just the orbitals alone. Anytime you've got eye injuries, anything severe with your eyes... [19:33] Long-term consequences vary.

Psychological. Absolutely. Your body heals. And physical. The body is resilient. Broken bones make stronger bones. His orbital bones will be stronger. They will be calcified. It depends on where, though, Justin. The orbital bone, I had my orbital broken. [19:53] For six months, I do this and my tooth will move. And it's right where my sinus cavity is. You remember when you hit me with a spinning elbow? Your tooth would move? When you push on your cheek? And my tooth would move. [20:03] Summer is great, but it also comes with a lot of chaos, travel, and spontaneous plans.

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That's com slash Joe Rogan. I still feel the soft spot, but this is a very weak [21:03] You broke both orbitals and the nose. I do believe the body is resilient. You ever seen Merab's nose? Yeah. You ever seen the x-ray of Merab's nose? No. [21:12] Thank you. [21:13] Did I send it to you, Jim? It looks like a spine. Dude. He's got 33 vertebrae on his nose. No, actually, I mean, I've had... It's literally fucking crazy. I've had three broken noses. I've had it fixed twice. I've had it fixed twice.

[21:24] Yeah, I know you had it fixed. You know, this is one. There it is. That's Marab's nose. [21:30] Oh, my God. Oh, my God. [21:34] That looks like a long cocaine binge right there. It took out the whole fucking left side of his nose. It looks like he got hit with a sledgehammer. [21:41] That's crazy. That nose is crazy. Yeah. [21:43] That is crazy. [21:44] That is like, and to fix it, he's going to have to have no contact for like a year. Yeah, that's hard. And so he's not going to fix it.

He's just going to deal. Look how turned it is. I mean, that, the bone. I've had my eyes fixed and my nose fixed, and my nose was better for quality of life. Oh, the nose is a big thing. Obviously, being able to see was huge, but when your nose is broken, like, you have to understand, like, getting a haircut fucking sucks. You can't breathe through your nose, so your mouth's open the whole time. You're constantly breathing in fucking hair. [22:13] Like, there's so much. Beat at the dentist and they get you to suck this thing.

You're choking. Every time you eat food, like, there's something missing. Yeah. Sleep. I wore a nose strip to bed for 10 years now. You used to have a scab, a permanent scab, because it peeled that thing off all the time. Yeah, my nose is used to it now, but. [22:32] Yeah, losing your nose is insane. When you got to fix which fight, was it before the Max fight? Yeah, right before the Max fight. And then you could breathe out of it perfectly. Yeah. [22:42] Yeah. Is it still good now? Yeah, he broke it, but he didn't break.

He didn't fuck with the cartilage. He broke. He actually fractured the bone up top, so I didn't have to get a face. It's another factor that when we were talking about the fight, [22:54] and people were talking about this matchup with Ilya, I said, you have to think about what he did to Fazeev. Fazeev is a super talented striker. And then you also have to think about the Max Holloway fight because he was pressing in the first round, but he got caught with a jump-spinning back kick to the fucking face.

And that's a game-changer. And it happened at the end of the first round, and from that it changed the tone of the fight because it was just dead on. It was perfect. [23:24] any better. The truth of the matter is psychologically I was not [23:28] I was not there. [23:30] I was not prepared mentally for the fight when I fought Max Holloway. It was such a different circumstance. It was a guy that wasn't in my weight class. It was a guy that I'd never thought about fighting. [23:40] It was for fun [23:42] And...

[23:44] The whole experience was so different than any other fight I've ever had when it comes to being mentally prepared for a fight. What do you attribute that to? Myself. And us. We told him to take the fight. He didn't want to take the fight. And we told him that you're going to keep the title contention fight because that's what they promised us. That's why he was very – Well, every one of you guys, every one of you was like, oh, something was different. It was like, well, why didn't you guys fucking say something before the fight?

You told me afterwards. You told me after the fight. [24:14] I knew something was different, but I needed to know. [24:16] He tells me afterwards, he's like this, he's like, I just didn't respect him. And I'm like, how could you not respect Max? And I didn't catch on to it. So it's like, I'm always looking for flags and things like that. And 100%, I take 100% responsibility because that's how we learn. Everybody makes mistakes. I remember the Tony Ferguson fight. I didn't give any fucking water. There's like things that we all learn from.

But the thing when he had told me that, I'm like, how did I not catch that from you? Because he's like, dude, he was a smaller guy. [24:46] outside like he is talented. I remember thinking what am I looking for? Like what am I afraid of? [24:52] I kept trying to convince myself that I needed to be, I needed to find what I was doing. [24:57] to be [24:58] Worried about and I couldn't find it. So you always need that before a fight. Yeah [25:02] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No matter who he is, you're fighting.

Right. You know? Right. Yeah, and so, like, I've never been as present in, like... [25:11] I've never been able to retain a fight. And I, you know, before the knockout, I was there. Like I was in the... [25:19] In the arena. I saw the lights. I saw the people. I heard the people like I've never been there in my life. And I think that I can attribute that to me not being scared. And so me not. [25:30] me not being in a real... [25:33] Fight or flight. [25:34] Real life or death situation.

Yeah, yeah. So you weren't fully focused. You could actually hear the crowd. Yeah, I could hear my thoughts. You know, I had thoughts. I never had thoughts in a fight because I'm so intuitive and reactionary. And that one was just so different. There was so much. And so, sure, the kicks, the eye pokes. No, I think I was not... [25:55] I couldn't have beat him that night with the mentality that I had. [25:58] And that was my last lesson to learn. [26:01] I had made my lessons with... [26:06] And Oliveira was like, I wanted it so much.

I wanted it so bad. And I wanted to perform and I wanted to impress my fans. You know, Rose had a fight that night and she fought like absolute garbage. And I told my coaches, I said, Coach, don't worry. I won't do that to you. Right before we're about to walk. Right before we're about to walk. I was like, don't worry, Coach. I will never let you down like that. And Coach is pissed. And everyone's, you know, the locker room's all fucked up because Pat's fucking weird. Is that the Carlos Barza fight?

Was that the same night? Yeah, yeah. [26:36] And I was at home. And so there was this... And that was, again, that was my fault. I allowed those things to affect me. Right. And to... [26:44] you know, affect my... [26:46] fighting decisions. [26:48] Rather than just being myself And so that was a huge mistake another mistake was [26:58] You know, winning two or three times in a row and just kind of... [27:02] Becoming complacent with how serious what we do is and how dangerous this game is and how much luck and chance are a factor every single night.

And so... [27:13] You know, I wasn't doing the extra credit. I wasn't sitting in the sauna at home. [27:18] you know and [27:19] I don't know why. And I made that mistake probably into the Eddie Alvarez... [27:25] Dustin Poirier fights, lost, and then I won... [27:28] Three or four in a row and then I completely went back to the same mindset of I'm the best in the world. No one can beat me. [27:33] Thank you. [27:34] And I paid for it. And those two mistakes were huge. Very, very big learning lessons.

And then... [27:41] The Charles Oliver fight, you know, I was like, I wanted it so bad. And then I made the moment so much bigger than it actually was because it's just... [27:50] 25 minutes in time and I it's all I can control is being perfect my preparation for it But then ultimately being there for 25 minutes and being perfect and yeah, those are the mistakes that I made I had to learn I had to make those mistakes. I would not change anything about my career I think the farther back into my career you go the more special this moment is and You know, I think in time again.

I this is gonna age like my career is something special the way that I did it and [28:17] The way that I lost, the way that I stayed on track, the way that I threatened retirement if I wasn't going to get a title shot. [28:25] the way I called my shots along the way, and the discipline I had. I mean, it's... [28:32] Second to none. [28:33] I've watched his sport my whole life. [28:36] Since 1992, my dad showed me. I remember as a four-year-old seeing it. I don't have a lot of, you know...

[28:42] great memories. I remember my childhood, but it's not like you have specifics. But I remember seeing it for my first time in my dad's bedroom. We were sitting there watching it together and I was enthralled. I was like, this is amazing. [28:55] I love this shit. Can you picture that? Him with like a baby bottle just squeezing it. I fucking love this. I love it. And then I watched it and I was a diehard fan. [29:06] I've been a diehard fan ever since then. And especially in 2001 when it came along, I was probably in seventh or eighth grade, sixth or seventh grade, and just fell in love with it.

And then me and Carl going into college, we'd go and sit above the wild wings for six, seven, eight hours, spend $5, those poor service people. It's just amazing that you've been able to keep this ferocious mentality for so long. [29:36] Because this is going to be fucking wild. Because I had been a fan of yours when we were fighting. What was it? World Series of Fighting. And then that Michael Johnson fight was everything that I thought it would be. Fucking crazy. Just a wild ass fight. Crazy coming out party.

Dude, I giggled so many times in that fight. Dude, when you went against the cage and you were like this. You look back and you were like, oh, I'm looking for the shot. And you're like blocking off the thing. [29:57] Did you come back with the right hook and then you let it back in again? Did you hit it with the right hook again off the cage? Dude, there's so many giggle sessions in there. I wasn't nervous because, just again, that's the way he fights. And I'm like, no one's going to forget this fight.

Michael Johnson was swinging, too. And caught him with that left hand a few times. Well, that's the same left hand he knocked out Dustin. His left hand is so fast. He's fast. It is so fast. Michael's power. Yeah, he does. He's fast. Dude, and he was trying to win. I mean, he was going all out. [30:27] out in that fight. It was fantastic. And I was like, there it is. The three rounder to get off the backflip [30:33] Took three rounds. He got up there, fell off. Got up there, fell off.

I was like, you can do it. I'm out there motivating him. I always get so scared for your knees when you do that. I'm like, please don't hurt your knees after you won the title. I'm 100%, baby. I ain't missing yet. We're training for Khabib. We're over at high altitude. He's doing backflips off the cage. And I was like, stop. [30:54] They do this after the fight. Yeah, he's like, hey, no more backfiles. [30:59] Today's the day. Today's the day I become a bitch. I'll never forget that moment. I turned my head and I was like, stop.

Go ahead. That is kind of true, right? When you get something and all of a sudden you're special, then you start protecting it and then you won't be special anymore. This is what makes sense who he is. That's why I told him. I was like, today's the day. He's fucking crazy. I never want him to stop being fucking crazy. Everything about him in life. [31:26] When you play golf with him, he's the highlight. He does shit that... [31:29] You'll never fucking see. It's like everything you do is the highlight. [31:32] His life is like his fighting.

He's fucking wild. So your mentality, you've never had to work on. I mean, obviously, you've learned lessons along the way, but you've never had to sit down and work on this mindset. It's always been something you inherently possessed. Yeah. [31:47] Yeah, I think... It's crazy. I think people just complicate things so much. Like, when you can truly... [31:55] Understand that there's there's. [31:57] There is things you can't control, but it's not everything. You can only control what's inside of you. You can only control how you perceive things, how you react to things.

The work you put in. Obviously the preparation. Yeah. But it's – [32:11] I mean, there's so much... [32:14] You know, and... [32:14] I guess I always knew that something was coming. [32:18] Because... [32:20] No matter how far off the... [32:22] the road, you know, like... [32:25] I've made mistakes. [32:27] I've... [32:28] Done. I was never an alcoholic. Thank God I was never an alcoholic. But I could say I was probably a drug addict one time in my life. What drugs? What? [32:41] I don't know. I have never told my parents about this.

You don't have to. All of them. [32:45] All of them. I know this is going to sound stupid, but so I went to school for human services. I wanted to help people. [32:53] A big part of that is helping people come off drugs. And I lost many, over a handful of friends, really close friends from drugs. Where I come from, we're not far from Mexico, and we had the best friends. [33:05] We had the best shit [33:07] Coming right across the border. Before I ever got caught up. [33:10] and it was...

[33:13] It was... [33:14] My life, you know, where I'm from is very boring. And so like you chase again, you know, we have it so good in this country. We're always trying to create chaos in order to feel something. And I guess that's what I was probably doing. [33:25] and in college is when I really, you know, if I'm going to help people come off of drugs, then how can I ever – [33:34] even try to... [33:36] understand if I don't know what they're chasing me. [33:39] And so that was a part of it.

[33:41] It also a part was felt good, you know. [33:45] And so... [33:47] You know, once I did [33:49] Thank you. [33:50] uh certain things i knew what people were chasing but then i always knew that something was bigger for me and better for me and i had something to do and so that was always it was never a crutch for me i was always like that was awesome you know i'm not doing it again what is it in your head that where you always knew that you had something bigger [34:11] Well, probably my faith.

I mean, I've been... My parents, the best thing they ever did for me was make me go to church every single Sunday and create a relationship with... [34:24] with God through the word of Jesus Christ and just trying to live up to those expectations. I knew. [34:34] Not that I was going to be a champion or anything. I just knew that. [34:38] I couldn't take the easy way out. [34:40] you know, um, [34:42] When you're on drugs... [34:43] or when you're living a lifestyle like that, then nobody expects anything from you.

Nobody wants anything from you. And that's the easy way to live. [34:51] You know, those... [34:52] Right. There's no pressure, no expectations, no expectations, no pressure. And I mean, it really is. I can understand how. [35:00] you can let that overcome the passion to live. [35:04] You know, and... [35:06] I don't know. I just think the passion to live because of my faith has never outweighed. [35:13] my [35:16] desire to [35:18] Feel good. I want to talk about the shift that you made in your career from being the most exciting guy in the world.

[35:25] wanting to be the most exciting guy in the world, being happy with performing to the best of your ability whether you win or lose. [35:31] to wanting to get the belt. [35:34] What started that decision? [35:39] It's weird because... [35:41] I don't. [35:42] remember a time or a day where I made a change other than [35:48] I'm not going to get hit. You know, in the Dustin Poirier fight and Eddie Alvarez fight, I absolutely almost broke them. [35:56] And it was no different than any of my other fights. Nobody had just ever...

same with Ilya, you know, like nobody had ever got past it. Nobody had ever been able to withstand the ferocity of my... [36:07] actions for two or three rounds. And then those guys did. And... [36:14] I was like, what happened? You know, and ultimately I put myself in a position and I got hit with a shot that [36:22] Um... [36:23] took me out of the fight. And so after those fights, I was like, I have to... [36:29] not take these shots. [36:30] And that was ultimately all I can say that I changed mentally is I don't want to get hit.

I used to never care about getting hit because it doesn't hurt. [36:41] nothing hurts in there. You don't feel nothing. It's never hurt. And so that was really just the mindset. I just need to not let them get me in a... [36:51] predicament where I'm not able to where they have to stop the fight. [36:55] So the shift... But he probably from the outside tour. Yeah, it's definitely there was a shift. And it wasn't just like an instant shift. It was the two losses in a row with Eddie and Poirier.

[37:07] where he's like, "I'm winning these fights, and I need to be able to get to the distance." And I was like, "All right, we got to become a spot fighter, because you just drown people." And you're, what's happening is you're making mistakes. We threw a low kick against Poirier, and he got caught because he... [37:20] base back lazy with his shoulders above his hips. So I was like, all right, let's be sharp. Let's fight in spots. Then he goes on a three-fight win streak where he's finding the right spots and putting people out from Vic to Barbosa into Cowboy Cerrone.

And that's where he's like, and then I sat down with him, and I was like, [37:39] do you want to be a champion? And I was like, this is how you have to fight. [37:42] To be a champion is be smart. [37:44] And he never said he didn't want to be the most excited fighter of the war. He would tell me after fights, he's like, I'm not even trying to fight excited, but look at me. And it's so amazing. It's in him. It's just how do we get you to sprint 50 yards, pull back for 100 yards and jog, and then sprint for 50 yards and be able to know your red line.

Don't cross over that red line. Don't hold red line. Well, that is, again, the experience that you've had in wars. It was so critical in the White House fight. He could do it. [38:14] mistakes. I think it's crazy. I think, again, the fact that they said that he had outstruck me in the first round 39-32 or something. He landed some hard jabs. Yeah, yours were devastating. [38:26] He might have touched and skipped on. I'm talking about... [38:30] The perception. Yeah. It looks like I'm getting hit. It looks like it's... But, I mean, my...

[38:36] I don't have special skin. [38:37] I... [38:38] I'm able to see punches. And roll with punches. If you watch my fights frame by frame, I'm not getting hit. [38:47] For the most part. You're moving with the punches. Yeah, yeah. It's Be Like Water. Like, I'm constantly... [38:54] You know, and intuitively making these calculations. That's the scoring that when you see that, I don't know who's counting that, but that's like amateur boxing. Amateur boxing, if the white glove touches you in the face, even if it's not a clean blow, that's how you judge.

Yes. And that's where, Jess, I think where you look at it from a point system, you can't just look at the screen. And that's why, you know, judges can't look at a screen and go, oh, this guy landed more. This is who won. You had the damaging blows. [39:24] I get it. I see the way you roll a shot. I see the way that you fade off and allow the shot not to go through your skull and deflect it. It still gets touched to you, so it's considered that they landed that shot.

But the damage is like what you do to people by the way that you hit through, that you drive through people is so different. Like Justin hits unlike any. I still think to this day we've got to ask the UFC, but they did a test on him to see who has the hardest bones in the UFC. He had the hardest bones. Dude, he kicks me, and I'm just like, dude. [39:54] I feel so bad for Luke Cadeo. He don't let me kick him. God, dude, Luke Cadeo just takes... He has his pat on.

I kick him... [40:01] And his nuts swell up. Dude, I get blue balls, bro. And so I can't kick it alone. There's a nerve on the inside of your leg. I talked to a doctor about it because I'm like, bro, he kicks people and they bruise on the inside of their leg. And it's because the shock threw, but there's a nerve on the inside of the leg. I'd go home and I'd tell my wife, I'm like, baby, I got fucking blue balls. And she's like, from who? And I'm like, Justin.

She looks at me like, the fuck you got blue balls from Justin for? One of the things you were doing early in your career that I always thought was so wild was you were leg kicking people from a collar tie. [40:28] Like you were a leg kick. And I was like, oh my goodness. How come no one's doing that? Like you were one of the only guys that I saw that was doing that that was from the clinch was leg kicking. You've got some fucking flexible hips, man. Because the way you're able to do that from like right in tight like this and then and not just throw the leg out.

You're whipping into it. Yeah, he pulls them to their leg. So he's making a base on that knee. And then it's just like you've got a stump in the ground or you're just trying to bend that tree. [40:56] Yeah, man, he's very good at that. Let me tell you something about Luke, because I got into the octagon right after you won, and Luke and I looked at each other, and he was like, ah! Dude, the bastard! He was so happy. [41:08] He was so happy. He was so happy. He hugged me so hard.

He was so happy. He was amazing. Because seeing all those videos and knowing he's in camp with you all the time and knowing how much he loves you, watching the happiness that he had when you won was fucking incredible. [41:30] Arizona with me I had no coaches I would just do it in between you know in between wrestling seasons and yeah he would go down there with me and just wrap my hands and he would just be there wow he's amazing one of the best human beings on earth dude yeah I love that man hey did you tell him about the the Sunday so the Sunday before the fight so there was one time I think it was in the cowboy fight [41:52] where you were pummeling with Ben, and he'd finish with a low kick on Ben every time, and I'm like, stop kicking your coach.

And he looks at me, he's like, Trevor, he used to drag me back on the mats. He used to fuck me up. Give me this opportunity to beat his ass. So we go golfing, Joe. Sunday we go golfing. Sunday before the fight. We get there Saturday, we go golfing Sunday, and it's a Sunday. We never work out on Sundays. And Trevor, not Trevor, Luke and Ben got fucking pickled. [42:21] On the golf course. They each had like three very, very, very stiff... Bloody Marys. Luke bought like 12 beers. Because we got there and they're like, hey, everything's on the president.

And he's like, fuck yeah, I've never heard that before. Everything's on the president, I'm going to drink. And so like whole 10 or 11, Trevor's like, let's fuck with them. Let's tell them that we're going to work out later. Well, we're going to work out, but I'm telling them they're going to be the workout. I didn't know we were working out. I had no fuck. We're fine on Sunday. We're definitely working out. I thought he was fucking with me. We're out there golfing. It's hot as shit. [42:51] sweating my ass off.

[42:52] I had no idea we were working out that day. He's like, let's fuck with them. Let's tell them that we're going to work out. I was like, all right, cool. So I told him I was going to text him and give the workout because I'll lay out the workout for everybody. And I told Luke he was going to go three rounds of sparring, full-on sparring. And then Ben's got to go 40 minutes straight. [43:08] No breaks, just grappling. [43:09] I'm wrestling. Just crap. And they're fucked up. Dude, and I told Justin, I was like, all right, let's fuck with him.

See how he is. And, dude, instantly, I didn't text him. We just started talking about it. So we're on the way home, driving home. And, dude, Ben is like, dude, he's like, I'll just take you down. And he's like, I asked him, how many times are you going to take him down? As many as I want. As many times as I want. Dude, he's like, 40 minutes. Let's go 60 minutes. So they went 20. Dude, you got, what, seven submissions on your coach. He drug him back on the mats. It was so funny because I was like, dude, you got to drag him back on the mats because I got to witness this.

[43:39] So we get home. I go down and take a nap for like two hours, and they just stay drinking. Talk of shit. Why are they drinking? My YouTube guy filmed everything, and they're just talking so much shit how they're going to fuck me up. Luke was good, though. Luke was like, he was kind of bad. Luke's been through it, man. Luke's like, you're really going to say that? Yeah, Luke's like, hey, I ain't saying any of this. Not me and Tim. But they're making a plan how they're going to team up on me.

And so it's funny. Then he got the video there, and I'm beating Ben's ass. [44:09] fucking him up. And Luke's punching Ben because Ben won't jump in. He's like, what the fuck, Ben? What the fuck, Ben? Now's the time. And he's asking for help, asking for help. I beat his ass. [44:21] We have fun, for sure. It looks fun. Great coaches. Our whole team is just, everybody's so dialed in. Yeah, that whole week is one of my, every time we go, that whole week is one of my favorite experiences. You were using the sauna in between workouts as well.

And before. And so we were. Nothing, that shit sucked. I say it was perfect, you say it was perfect. [44:39] It was not. [44:40] It was detrimental to our performances. The humidity was there. I didn't realize it because obviously it's not something I can worry about right now. But after round one, I just remember thinking... [44:50] Oh, fuck. [44:52] I am so tired right now. How is this possible? And the amount of fluid I lost. Thank God it wasn't hot. I probably lost like $15. Yeah, because it was in the 70s.

Dude. Yeah, 70s with the cool breeze. You know, when you go out there, what you feel is the cool breeze. But in the fight, man, it was different. Yeah, I hated the fact that it was going to happen, but I'm glad it did. Again, I would not change. Again, I think. How could you change it? It affects me. It affects him. Again, I grew up in the country. He's. [45:19] He's a city boy. There's no way he's not a city boy. I don't know him personally, but there's no way he's not a city boy.

And so as a country boy from... [45:27] The desert in Arizona, like I was... [45:29] hoping that it would be [45:31] Hot as fuck. Hot as fuck. When he sat down on the stool, I was like, oh, God, these outside fights kill me. [45:37] Yeah, you know, he was shaking dude. He was like trembling. I was like, holy shit. I [45:43] Well, it is crazy to ask people to defend a world title in a completely alien environment that you never have fights in. We've had – how many fights outside? We've had the Abu Dhabi fight in like – what was that?

2000 and fucking nine or something like that? Yeah, Fort Worth. No, they didn't – [46:00] What was the setting? I wasn't there. It was... When Adesanya did his famous walkout in like a... It was covered, but it was... It seemed like the environment was... [46:09] Outside. Poirier against Kameem. In Abu Dhabi. So the first Abu Dhabi. Well, we did one in Abu Dhabi when BJ... The big arena. Yeah. [46:19] Lost to Frankie Edgar. That was outside in Abu Dhabi. [46:24] And that was when Anderson Silva fought Damian Maia. Is that with that Ferrari building?

[46:30] The Ferrari building was there, but I don't know if it was in the same place. [46:34] Did they have a fight in the Ferrari building? I think they did, but I wasn't there for that one. I only went to one of the Abu Dhabi fights. It wasn't that long ago. I would say within the last seven years. Remember that dude in Morocco said after the first round he was done, he was just trying to survive? He said it was so hot, remember? Yeah, I mean, that's what I remember. It being over there, and then once you realize the climate over there and the humidity, it's like, it doesn't fucking matter.

Remember Bodog fights? They had a fight outside in the sun. [47:04] Yeah. [47:05] On the beach. [47:06] Caesar Palace in Vegas. [47:08] Remember Caesars Palace? The boxing. We got to fight there. Vernal Phillips against Kassi Muma. Yeah, that's right. They used to always do it outside. [47:15] World Series of Fighting. [47:17] Around the NASCAR event? Yeah, that was crazy. Duran versus Hearns. That was an outside, though. Duran versus Hearns was outside. Yeah, they were great, yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's right. At least Vegas is dry. Yeah. [47:29] Yeah, yeah. Totally.

Arizona, Vegas, Colorado. Yeah, humidity was what I was training for with him was heat stroke. Like dealing with it where you can't breathe, it's heavy air. So were you putting water on the rocks and the sauna as well? Oh, absolutely. And we trained in a hotter gym. I'd turn the temperature up in the gyms just so he's getting used to dealing with a little bit more heat stroke. We would spike my heart rate. [47:48] And then I would go in the sauna 15 minutes, and then I would come out and do 8 to 10 rounds.

[47:53] It was great. I'm so glad we did it. Very smart. Very smart. Because that environment is... [47:59] I mean, it's so completely different. I just... [48:03] Ultimately, I think the best way to fight is obviously the way you usually fight in a controlled environment. That's how it should be. It was cool, though, Joe. You know why? It was so cool. So we went and did a rehearsal. And I'm like, why are we rehearsing at walkthrough? This ain't a freaking wedding. Just tell us where to go. The camera guys are always like, all right, you're Mark.

Here's five, four, three. So why are we doing this? And then we go there, and we get stuck in this locker room for... [48:25] two hours because of rain. And thank God that happened because then I started to go, oh, because it's all unexpected. And how Ilya said, hey, I'm a visualizer. I can't visualize this arena. And I visualize a lot, too. So I was like, I felt the exact same thing when he said that. And that's when I knew, hey, these are going to be some huge unknowns. And I had told him that night because the rain was coming.

Like, it was crazy how the storm split around because it was all bright red. I was like, this is thunderstorms. [48:55] We were pushing to fight until 10:30 m. We had planned on fighting at the start of the night. I started staying up until like 3 m. after the rehearsal. I was like, "It could be 3 m. when we fight." [49:04] I'm going to start staying up. [49:05] But that's what was cool. Like, the walkout, like, having the soldiers, like, just walking through the soldiers, there was that... [49:12] We weren't able to take any of this in, Joe, and I can't really speak for him.

I know where his mindset is. I couldn't from a coach's standpoint. [49:19] I was nervous as fuck because you don't know – there's no pattern I can take on right now. I kind of put myself and breathe to it. It was very unique. And at the end, I couldn't even really smile. It was just like, dude. [49:31] I'm just like... [49:32] Blown away. Now I can kind of just look around slowly and just try to take in everything because it was very, very hard to to go through that scenario with the pressure of us fighting on on this stage at the White House.

[49:46] We're the Americans. We're a 6-1 underdog. That gets to you. When you hear that over and over and over and over, it's, you know, you can't hear your phone. Dude, you got one. You caught a Marlin. [49:58] But having... [50:01] Take a left. Just that scenario was so unique. And then once it was over, then it was like, now I get to enjoy the White House and just be in here in this, this, this. Yeah, look at that scene. There you can see it. What is he reading there? Is that the Declaration of Independence?

Yeah. So we weren't in the room with him right there. Through the rehearsal, yeah. How crazy is that? He's in the Oval Office stepping out. And then all the soldiers walking through, so cool, like having the two guys next to him. And a lot of people complained. [50:29] about this happening at the White House. Yeah. [50:33] You don't think this is cool? Dude, it's fighting. How could you not like this? This is fighting. This shouldn't be taking place to watch. Shut the fuck up. Dude, life is a fight. World is a fight.

This is incredible to watch. Inspirational. It's a wild thing to watch. By the way, how much gold did Trump put on those walls? He's got gold everywhere. Look at these fucking gold designs. When we were at the Oval Office, [50:54] First thing I said is I was like, this thing is small as hell. When I see it on pictures, it seems so big. But the gold pieces on the wall is the first thing I was like, they dust that shit every day because, dude, it was so clean. Well, he put that up there.

None of that was there. None of that was there. He was explaining it to me. There was no gold. I wanted to have gold. He's got a gold cherub, like a solid gold cherub that's above one of the doors. He goes, if Putin comes, hopefully it doesn't fall on his head. It's like he's got gold everywhere. It's all him. He redesigned a bunch of the things there. He's a builder, right? [51:24] So that's why he wanted to do the ballroom. That's why he wanted to keep it. He likes everything in gold.

He's a gold guy. [51:32] What was that, Austin Powers? Bro, we were just watching you look at the Declaration of Independence before you walked out, which is also wild. This is never going to happen again. This is more historic than Rumble in the Jungle, more historic than – I mean, think about all the great fights that we've all watched as kids that were like, remember that? [51:54] stops everything because of the scene, because of the fact that not only is it at the White House, but the American, who's a six to one on some books underdog, pulls it off in spectacular fashion.

And just the seesaw of the fight, too. The back and forth. The back and forth of the fight was fucking huge because the second round was crazy. It was like, oh, no. And letting it go on again. So our corner, all the coaches were like, dude, they're going to stop it. And I said out loud, I was like, please let it go on.