The Democratic Party's Civil War

[00:21] Welcome to PodSafe America, I'm Dan Pfeiffer. You're about to hear a great conversation I just had with Amanda Libman, co-founder and president of Run for Something, an organization that has recruited more than 250,000 people [00:30] for office since its founding in 2017, and she's the author of When We're in Charge, The Next Generation's Guide to Leadership. I invited Amanda on because I wanted to hear her perspective on where Democrats are heading into the 2026 midterms, how the fight between establishment and insurgent candidates is playing out in races across the country, especially in a heated Democratic primary in Michigan, and where the party goes from here.

[00:50] I also asked her about how Graham Plattner's decision to drop out of the main Senate race could impact Democrats' chances of taking back the Senate. [00:57] and what she thinks as someone who has worked with thousands of candidates about the recruitment and vetting process that led him to jump into the race. It was a great conversation, and we'll get to it in a minute. But before we do, if you want more analysis heading into the midterms, consider subscribing to my newsletter in the message box, where I pull back from day-to-day punditry to offer deeper analysis on the trends affecting our politics.

Go to com slash yeswedan for a 20% discount on your subscription. And as always, consider becoming a paying subscriber to Friends of the Pod, where you'll get this episode and many more ad-free, [01:27] Alex Wagner's phenomenal runaway country. Head to com slash friends to subscribe today. All right, here's Amanda Littman. Amanda Littman, welcome back to Pod Save America. Thanks for having me, Dan. I wanted to have you on for so many reasons. I want to talk about the midterms. I want to talk about the battle within the Democratic Party between the insurgents and the establishment, the left, the right, et cetera.

[01:46] But I feel like the best place to start, maybe the worst place to start with this conversation is Maine. [01:51] Hey, Topic, we've talked a lot about now. [01:53] I don't think we need to go through – [01:56] our own personal histories with Graham Plattner or who we liked or when we liked him. We've all done that. I went deep with Alex Wagner on last week's pod. You've written about this. You've talked about it. You've tweeted about it. I want your perspective as someone who has worked with thousands of candidates about how we ended up in the situation.

I want to begin with a candidate recruitment process. Dana Morath and Leanne Phan, two progressive activists who did a very aggressive [02:26] went looking for a candidate in Maine. They looked through FEC records to look for a lobster man. Then they looked for an oyster farmer. They looked at – then they saw a video of Grant Plattener. They went with – met with him, convinced him to run for office. This has come under a withering critique from lots of people. [02:42] What did they do right? What did they do wrong?

What's your take on this recruitment process? And we'll get to the vetting after this, because that's a different topic, but related, obviously. What did they do right? They looked for someone new. I think that's good. I think we should open the door to as many new voices as possible. We should expand our idea of what a good candidate looks like. That's the end of the list of things they did right. What they did wrong is you cannot play Kingmaker. [03:07] And you really cannot play Mad Libs with candidate recruitment. You cannot look at a state like Maine or any district and say, you know what?

We need X kind of occupation, Y demographic, Z type of politics. We're going to make this person into a candidate. One, we have no idea who the fuck can win. [03:23] We have no idea. [03:23] but two, [03:25] It leaves open so much space for it to feel like a puppet master is creating the candidate as opposed to the candidate coming up organically. [03:37] It is possible that he, like notwithstanding all of his other personal stuff, that he might have come up through and, you know, seen an ad from Run for Something or gone to a main Democratic Party event and said, you know what, maybe I do see myself here.

And then gone through the kind of rigorous, thoughtful process you need before you actually get on the ballot. That maybe could have been so. [03:58] But they did not do that. [03:59] They said, we're going to make this man into a senator. And they tried to puppet master it into being. [04:05] That will backfire any number of ways. I obviously agree with all of that. People have to want to run for office. You have to start with that, right? And we'll talk a lot about run for something in the course of this conversation, but people find you.

[04:16] Because they want to rent for something. Yes. And I think it's really important to say that. Running for office sucks. Like, it is miserable. It is hard. Your life is going to be under a microscope. You need to want to do it anyway. [04:28] We should not convince people to run. We should open the door to them. And then if they say yes, help them walk through it. We shouldn't push them through it. So that's one aspect of this, right? Trying to take someone who doesn't want to run for office and get them to run for office.

Or is it never thought about it, right? It's one thing to, you've kind of thought about it for a while. You're, you know, maybe you want to do it. Maybe you don't. You're weighing considerations. And then people try to convince them to do it. The party committees do that all the time. That's how Janet Mills ended up in this race, which is she didn't really want to run for office. And I guess she decided to run so Chuck Schumer would stop calling her. Yes. [04:58] which is they went looking for a very specific type of person.

Now, this to me doesn't seem... [05:04] that different from what the DCCC or other organizations do, right? [05:09] So they look at a district. They look at the political environment. They say these are the kinds of people who should run – who would be good candidates in this district or in this political environment in the 2006 cycle. [05:23] The DCCC and Rahm Emanuel went out and recruited a whole bunch of Iraq and Afghanistan vets to run for office. [05:30] In an environment where people are very anti-war, very upset with ROC, won a lot of races that way.

DCCC, this cycle has looked at – in the past, we've looked at prosecutors, sheriffs, still veterans, fired federal workers are a group here. Is there anything wrong with thinking about the kind of profession that would be the right people? I understand the idea from these people's perspective, which is we want a working-class candidate in Maine. There's all kinds of conversations about whether Grim Platinum is actually working class, but let's just put that aside for a second. [06:00] And what is a great – [06:02] job [06:03] in Maine to be a working that is like says I am Maine in their original conception was lobster.

Like, let's get someone who fishes for lobsters. Is there anything wrong with that approach? That sort of casting call approach to it? [06:16] I think it assumes that we know who can win, which sometimes we make a good guess. But like you can come up with dozens of examples of people who would never have been asked to run. Barack Obama being another like a top of the list. Who would have asked the one term state senator, two term state senator, con law professor to run for higher office? No one. Who would have asked someone like Lauren Underwood, a nurse who was a black woman in a majority white district to run for office?

Who would have asked AOC? Who would have asked, you know, Ayanna Pressley? [06:46] who are truly amazing public figures in our party who you probably wouldn't have picked if you were going to start from scratch, but who, because they care, because they had problems they want to solve, and the offices that they saw gave them power to solve it, decided to get in a fight. So I think it is so risk-averse, and we are at a moment where our party can't afford to be risk-averse. [07:08] Yeah, and I want to talk about how – [07:11] The Platinum thing affects our risk aversion in a second.

But let's pivot to the vetting, because there's never been so much talk about vetting in history. And in part, once again, because Marath and Fan did these interviews where they almost giddily admitted to barely vetting. [07:25] Platner [07:28] How do you think about the process of candidate vetting [07:31] It obviously did not work here, but what can one reasonably expect to find out? And what were the failure points here? So I would say, Run for Something has endorsed more than 4,000 candidates over the last 10 years. [07:45] I believe we've had to rescind fewer than a dozen of those endorsements in the last decade.

[07:50] pretty good track record. And for those incidents, there's been things that have come up like after the campaign has already started. [07:57] Now, part of us, we work on the local level. The stakes are a little bit different there, but also... [08:02] We do deep background checks. We do social media scrubs. We ask local operatives. We dig deeper. We also ask candidates. And this, I think, is the most important part that Plattner would have failed here. What are we going to find? [08:13] Like, what is what is the oppo report on you?

What is the opposition going to say? If your worst secrets are on the front page of the newspaper? What's that headline going to read? And how are you going to feel about it? I think for us, and this is true of our most vetting reports, that what the candidate says in their own like self oppo is is the. [08:34] the nut to crack. And it doesn't seem like Plattner was going to be honest about those things. Maybe he didn't think they were flags in the first place or he didn't remember them, whatever it might be for some of them.

[08:45] I think that is where it really matters that people want to do this so that they can be very open and honest with the teams and voters, more importantly, about what they're going to find. [08:54] Yeah, I really have been struggling with this because, as you say, the process... [08:59] And it's different levels, right? What you guys would do for state senate candidates is different than what theoretically should happen in a high-profile senate race, and that is – [09:07] Light years apart from what would happen in a presidential race.

Which is why you don't pluck people from obscurity to run for Senate. Right. [09:13] right and who don't want to right like that is the thing and but so in if you look at the platenor thing like there's [09:19] there is the social media posts. Now a good vetting should have found that because CNN found it. And, [09:27] I don't know whether he told them that he had been doing a lot of Reddit posting in an earlier stage of his life. I imagine that that would have been something that – [09:33] Would have been easier to say than some of the other things that happened.

That should have been found. The tattoo is an interesting one. I've thought about this a lot. Like what is the – [09:43] I don't know that in any candidate questionnaires – well, there will be now, I guess. Do you have any Nazi-like tattoos? Do you have any problematic tattoos? Let me disrobe so I can examine your tattoos. His Nazi tattoo is not showing up in a LexisNexis or a Google search about his history or a public record search. But if you had talked to lots of people around them, some of them might have said because this is one of the reasons why you talk to people is they want to help their friends and family.

[10:07] do this right and not get embarrassed. So they will often tell you things like, you know, just one thing I would ask him about is there's this kind of weird tattoo, you know, that like that could have come up. But you also see how that falls through the cracks in a traditional, particularly if you believe, which I am now very skeptical of, that he did not know until that it was Nazi related until the end. Now, I don't believe that he got it to be a Nazi, but I don't think he's been truthful about when he found out.

I do think like it is worth thinking [10:37] and what are the things that we never could have known. Yeah, the Reddit post stuff should have been found, for sure. And then you get to his relationships with... [10:46] women. The [10:47] I mean, I can't believe we're having to have this conversation about this, but the quote-unquote consensual sexting that went on. [10:53] was discovered in the vetting process. His wife... [10:56] did what she was supposed to do, which is she told the campaign. She had the exact question that you raised.

She answered with, there was this. And the campaign made a decision. [11:07] not to deal with it in any way, shape, or form, or not to proactively disclose it. [11:12] you know, [11:12] That came back to bite them. And then the other stuff, like the toxic nature of those relationships, the sexual assault allegation, are things that a campaign can only find out if the candidate tells them. [11:24] If the candidate is unwilling to tell them, [11:26] They may never know because it just doesn't show up in that. Now, once again, in a presidential level vetting or VP level vetting, [11:34] The campaign would have gone out and talked to all the ex-girlfriends.

I don't know that that's a reasonable expectation. [11:40] for a Senate race, but Planner is a failure of vetting on one end, but the things that ended his campaign is a failure of character on his part to be willing to tell them to the campaign, right? I'm not trying to defend Marath and Fan, but it's just, I've gotten so many questions about vetting in this process. I think it's just worth to help people understand like what is reasonable and they failed miserably. [12:01] But ultimately, the failure was also Planners. I think that's right.

And I think his failure, to be honest with them, even about some of the things, should have been the red flag for the people talking to him. Yes, yes, that's exactly right. There were clearly red flags that... [12:14] in their interactions with him that should have raised more questions that led to more vetting. So in my conversations with... [12:20] you know, listeners of the show, you know, [12:22] Democrats out there, there's a fair amount of defeatism about Maine post-Plattner, the sense that we had this golden opportunity today. [12:31] Everything went wrong.

Wrong candidate. [12:34] wrong approach from the dscc to kind of clear the field so we ended up with this choice between a flawed candidate and a candidate who didn't really want to run and couldn't beat that flawed candidate how are you feeling about the race going forward and we're recording this on thursday a couple hours before the first debate that the main democratic party is holding for the nomination to replace platner i think the main democratic party so far has done a pretty good job of setting up a process that people feel like they can be a part of because i think that was the real danger was [13:04] and then force it down voters' throats, for lack of a better term, or down their menu, they seem to have set up a process that gives people a voice.

[13:14] it seems like all of the candidates who are jumping in at least have some amount of run through the ringer, whether they ran for governor, they ran for Congress, they're public businessmen. [13:25] Not as many nobodies. I am still cautiously optimistic. I mean, Maine is a state that voted for Kamala. Susan Collins is deeply unpopular. Trump is even more unpopular. There does seem to be like a deep frustration with Susan Collins among Mainers. [13:42] It's not a foregone conclusion that it's a non-starter. I am curious to see how quickly whoever takes the nomination can raise money and what Plattner does with his money and his infrastructure and how much he really...

[13:54] uh engages with the the potential nominee or if he as his dropout videos seem to indicate harbors a lot of ill will towards this process yeah like his money is incredibly useful now he can only give a small amount of it to the nominee but he could theoretically give it all to the dscc of the dnc and the dnc could then now thank you to the roberts court use that money in an un [14:16] in a fully coordinated fashion to spend it and unlimitedly on behalf of the nominee. You know, I feel and maybe this is just cope on my part.

[14:27] This is going to depend on how the process plays out. But if the process plays out, I hope it will, which is... [14:32] I agree. The main Democratic Party is doing... [14:34] So far, a great job. Ideally, you'd have another primary, everyone would get a vote. That is not... [14:39] Obviously, logistically feasible on this very tight timeline. This is certainly better than just the party committee voting on one person behind closed doors. This is at least people it'll happen. There'll be a couple debates. It'll happen. But this convention will be very interesting.

Lots of people will watch it. People will get a test. This is kind of what. [14:58] might've helped us better into that in 2024. If other people had wanted to run against Kamala, they didn't. So we never had that process, but there's like a testing ground here where you'll get to see, [15:08] if some of these people... [15:09] It's not exactly like a primary campaign, but it's as close as we're going to get. So I think that's good. I think – [15:15] If the process plays out and we end up with a candidate without a Nazi tattoo or a bunch of other things, [15:21] We're in a better position than we probably would have been had we ended up with either Platner or Mills Platner in this like in this state.

It was Platner before the sexual assault allegation, just Platner as he was on primary day or Mills as the nominee. Like, I think we actually have a chance that this race could, God forbid, be about Susan Collins. [15:41] which is what you want it to be. Because in that Times poll, there were an even Plattner after all the stuff was going on was still winning by two points. By, I think it's an 11 point margin, people in Maine want the Democrats to control the Senate. [15:53] So if you can actually just make this race about a vote for Susan Collins as a vote to let Donald Trump control the Senate, put Supreme Court justices on, do all these bad things, like you have a real shot.

If you can just have a generic shot. [16:03] Democrat who is a... Generic Democrat is the right word. You need a talented generic Democrat, right? Someone who can just... [16:09] isn't flawed. [16:11] Can campaign well, but allows the focus to be on... [16:15] the candidate on Susan Collins, not their own personal foibles like that. That's it seems like in some ways are like a decent shot. I still think we have a very real shot to win this race. I really do. I do too. And I think the candidate who takes this nomination forward sort of has an indicator of where voters are now, like can really speak to the anger that, you know, Plattner for all of his fuck ups, and there are many, like he caught fire.

Something like 1% of Maine was volunteering for his campaign. He spoke to the anger and the frustration that people feel. He [16:44] put forward some real clarity of positions, and the nominee who moves forward. [16:50] should be able to tap into that even if they don't weren't able to capture it in the primary themselves. [16:55] You know, I got served a TikTok video, a platinum, because, you know, obviously nothing on TikTok is connected to that. [17:02] calendar. So it actually was posted weeks and weeks ago. And it's Plattner talking about how we have to stop making this between left and right.

And we had to point fingers up, not down. That's not pointing each other. It's about the billionaires. So like that is a [17:14] legitimately good message that someone else could also have. And it also is a reminder of, it does remind you, because I think some of the discourse is, [17:23] You know, it's all because, you know, Posse America's taken a lot of slinks and arrows over this, but it's all because these dumb podcasts with other people like Plattner that he wanted. People forget he actually... [17:36] got 70% of the vote in the primary and blew the doors off the two-term incumbent governor.

Like he was doing something. He was the wrong vessel, but he was doing something to the people of Maine. [17:47] very much wanted. And they were all very well aware of everything up until this last, until the sexual assault allegation, very aware of his things and they still wanted him. And that's, there's something in there that Democrats have to take from that. And I would add, cause I have also taken some heat here and I share the frustration of like, this was at no point ever a clearly moral right or wrong because at every point up until he dropped out, [18:11] It was either him, [18:12] or Susan Collins and a Trump-chalked Supreme Court.

Those were the choices. Which is better for women? Graham Plattner in the United States Senate or Trump Supreme Court justices? [18:25] ah, you know, like it, it, it was bad. It was all bad. And I am so glad that he ultimately did the right thing and stepped aside. And I am glad that we get a chance so that those are not our only two choices. [18:36] What do you think about outside of Maine? And we'll talk about some of the other races coming in the House and Senate map. But, you know, you and I have both argued, you've done this very eloquently, that Democrats need to be willing to take bigger risks.

We have to change the way we're doing things. We have to change the way we communicate, the way we campaign, the kind of candidates we think about, that the way the establishment is doing things has been wrong. [18:56] not as effective as we would like it to be. [19:00] It... [19:01] And the Platner debate prior to the most recent stuff, but even up into the Reddit post and the Nazi tattoo, was a little bit of a proxy for this battle between – in some ways, it's between – [19:15] the left in the middle, but in some ways it's also between people who want real change and people who want less change within the party.

And it does... [19:24] Like my worry with this is, and I'm going to get to Michigan because I think these things are tied together in some ways, but it, [19:32] Like, I worry that people take this as a... [19:35] argument against taking risks against candidates. And why did the aperture on the kinds of candidates that we're open to? Because, [19:45] Platner was in it was obviously a very unique candidate with a unique background. [19:49] But he blew up in our face, so therefore... [19:51] Ergo, the conclusion is... [19:54] We got to...

[19:55] be more traditional. What's your take on that? Are you seeing that too? I find that to be such an empty argument because it's not like Janet Mills was the right choice either. She was the establishment scholar. She was Schumer's pick. Schumer cleared the field for her, as we have seen Notice and others do very in-depth reporting on. They got candidates to leave that race so that Janet Mills would run for the United States in it. And then they begged and pleaded her to get in. And then not only did they leave her hanging out to dry when she was stopped being able to raise money, but it is telling that she's not throwing her hat in the ring to win the [20:25] She doesn't want to do this.

[20:27] She is not the path forward. [20:30] To say that this proves that the establishment always gets a right and the new people always get it wrong, no. [20:35] This is villains on all sides here. [20:37] Everyone got this wrong. [20:40] Yeah, I think that's exactly right. [20:43] I just – I don't want people – [20:46] to think that this means that outsider candidates, you need the right outsider candidates, but we shouldn't have outsider candidates. And the conversation around this is so... [20:55] like stupid basically because the thing people keep saying like you have fetterman and you have platter [21:01] I was like, Fetterman was a prominent mayor for years and years and years.

Yeah. And then he was lieutenant governor. [21:10] He was not like he dresses like an outsider. [21:13] prior to his most recent ideological shift, [21:18] But he was a progressive Democrat who endorsed Bernie Sanders and Barack Obama. And I mean, he was campaign. He was a mayor in 2008 campaigning with Obama. [21:26] And so this idea that [21:29] No one wants to have the real conversation about this. Either this is all about Plattner or there's a specific type of candidate you want. And that can be on both sides of this, right?

Everyone's got to reckon with what... [21:43] with the reality here, but this... I just... [21:47] We need outsider candidates. [21:49] They don't have to be Grant Plattner. They should be better than Grant Plattner. Our insider candidates should be better than Eric Swalwell. Yep. And Andrew Cuomo. I mean, that was when it was like, well, the establishment does a good job betting. Do we? Do we? Do we have proof of that? [22:03] I just... [22:03] I do think that some of the emotion around this race both comes to the stakes of it, where people, like, obviously, if we do not win Maine or a state like it, we will not hold the Senate.

[22:13] devastating for generations. And the sense that, especially for people who really believed in him, it's a sense of betrayal. [22:19] of grief of like, I thought I, I had a politician I could get excited about and he disappointed me and broke my heart. And so I, I have some amount of empathy for the, for the high feelings on all sides of this, but also, um, [22:32] The task now is to win and to make sure we don't make this mistake again. [22:35] Music. [22:41] Pod Save America is brought to you by ActBlue.

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[24:44] All right, let's pivot to your hometown of New York City, which has been ground zero for the rise of... [24:54] democratic socialism and beginning first with bamdani and then the races that happened in the new york primary two incumbents were unseated uh and a two dsa candidates one races one unseating a long-term incumbent one winning an open seat these are and then in colorado where we had uh a 30-year democrat incumbent diana diana to get uh unseated by a [25:19] Democratic Socialists. What do you make of the rise of Democratic Socialism?

Is this something... [25:24] That is this about socialism? Is it about the fact that these are all districts that Kamala Harris won by more than 50 points? Like just what's your what's your take on what's happening here? I think voters are hungry for someone offering them a solution to their problems, especially young people who cannot afford to buy a house, cannot afford child care or stuff with student loan debt, feel like they have no agency in their lives. They are looking to gambling or crypto or whatever it is, because at the very least, that feels like something you might have some control over.

[25:52] They are pissed. They are frustrated with the status quo. And DSA candidates are saying, here's a solution. They're offering an alternative. [25:59] The establishment or the center or the old guard could also do the same. And I think it is telling to me that they are not putting forward like a vision for what else could be possible. [26:10] you know, the fact that Mamdani was able to speak to the, not just the anxiety that people feel about their economic situation, but also like, [26:17] how they feel about what their life might hold.

Like it wasn't just afford to live. It was afford to dream. It was afford to be able to imagine a better future for yourself. [26:26] I think also DSA has built some organizing muscle in a lot of these places, which should not be underrated. [26:32] and their candidates are selling something that matters. [26:36] If you look at the polling, there is just absolutely no question that socialism has grown in favor with Democratic voters over the last many years here. In the New York Times-Siena poll, every single demographic, every single age cohort of Democrats, a plurality of Democrats have a favorable opinion of socialism.

[26:55] And interestingly enough, I find this so fascinating. The group with the highest approval rating of or highest availability rate of socialism is not 18 to 29 year olds. It's 30 to 44. That's millennials, baby. [27:09] I was telling this with Favre, I think, but it does make sense. If you are of an age where you came of age in the Great Recession, like you really have been through the ringer in a way that is where capitalism has really fucked you. [27:25] And you're also at the age where you want to be buying a house and you either can't afford to do it or it's more expensive.

You can. You have kids like you're at it. But socialism has grown in favor and capitalism has lost a lot support across the board with everyone in recent years. Also, understandably so. [27:44] I think there is something to – like it was easy to dismiss Mamdani as a generational talent, just like that guy could have – [27:53] He could have been democratic socialist. He could have whatever he could. He was so good. He's so good. But these other candidates are good. [27:59] They're good, but it's not generational talent that's winning.

And so they are... [28:04] People want... [28:05] Big change. [28:07] And the left is more comfortable offering big change. [28:10] than the center. It doesn't mean there can't be a moderate version of something that addresses in a compelling, understandable, credible way the cost of health care, housing, and [28:22] food, whatever else, like you can do that, just have been unwilling to do it. And there is just something in. [28:29] There's a passion in how that is different with not every but with a lot of leftist first center candidates that comes through that reads as authenticity and that you'll fight for them.

I remember there's a clip from the Diana DeGette-Milat-Hiros debate where Diana DeGette is making an argument about a public option, which in a different era – that was a position too liberal for the Democratic Senate in the Obama era when Obama was trying to do it – [28:58] And it's like, you know, she's sort of living in the world of legislatively possible. And Kyrus makes this very passionate argument for Medicare, the morality behind Medicare for all and why it's the right thing to do. And it's just like the difference there.

[29:12] Part of it is... [29:13] generational, part of it is insider, outsider, but part of it also is [29:18] That's an easier argument to make. [29:20] In the moment. Now we can talk about how hard it is to make maybe in a general election, but in the moment, there's just they're offering something that is different. Now, do you there there is real concern. [29:31] among [29:32] Even well-meaning, I think, people in the establishment, the people who are trying to win the House and the Senate, that – [29:39] This rise of Democrats, and I should say, thus far, Democrats have not nominated any, any, [29:45] DSA candidates.

[29:47] in races that were that aren't guaranteed democratic races so it's not we're not in a situation where a bunch of these candidates are knocking off [29:55] More, you know, they're not knocking off. They're not running. They're not winning nomination in a district where they would be very, very far to the left of the district that's happening in the blue stations in the country, which is probably how the primary process is supposed to work. But, you know, you do have an upcoming race with Democratic Socialists in Wisconsin running for governor.

[30:12] But I think a lot of Democrats have this fear that – [30:15] This could cost us the House and the Senate, either by DSA candidates winning primaries where they are to the left of the district – [30:21] or, [30:22] The just being tarnishing the already tarnished brand of the Democrats. What's your take? The Democratic brand can't get much worse. What are we doing here, guys? We're going to try. I'll tell you that. You know, I do think that just to speak to that particular point where like if a candidate can't comfortably say, you know what, I don't agree with my future colleague on X, Y, Z issue, but I look forward to working together to find a way to bring everyone affordable health care.

[30:46] Like you're not a good politician. You don't have to agree with all of your colleagues and everything. You can respectfully dismiss them and look forward to working together to the point of like. [30:54] how we're thinking about the bigger picture here [30:57] You know, these candidates where they're running and winning, they are getting people excited. Shouldn't we want people to be excited about this process? Like these DSA meetings, like them or not, and like I'm not a DSA member. That's not where I sit ideologically. But I look at those meetings and there's young people showing up.

They are volunteering. They are donating. They are participating in very boring conversations about process. Like that is what building a political party looks like. [31:27] place where that is possible. Now, I will say, Run for Something last year had nearly, over the last 18 months, about 100,000 people raise their hands to run for office. That is more than we had in the entirety of Trump's first term. [31:38] The thing that we have heard different over this year and the last that we didn't hear in Trump 1.0 was frustration with the Democratic Party.

[31:45] was people explicitly saying, "I am running for office because they are not going to fight for me. They have not delivered for me. They do not see me. They do not care about me." [31:52] So the DSA is giving those people a home. [31:55] The Democratic Party, like, you know, Big D could do the same. [31:59] Yeah, I mean, it's there's no question. You know, I'm not overly worried about I mean, they call Barack Obama socialist and there were no they called Joe Biden a socialist. What are we doing here?

We could elect no DSA candidates and they would call swing state Democratic member candidates. [32:15] socialist. That would happen. You know this from all the races you run. You would need candidates who ideologically fit their district. These DSA candidates obviously fit their district. The voters said that. That's what they declared. And [32:27] And, you know, and whilst... [32:29] So far, there have been some non-DSA... [32:34] candidates who have won some primaries that some people believe are. [32:38] were against, you know, I'm thinking about Maine 2, Randy Villegas, were like, were the...

[32:45] The establishment had a view on who was the best candidate to win. The more progressive candidate won. [32:51] We'll find out in a few months. [32:53] Who was right? [32:54] Actually, I take that back. We'll never find out who's right because it's always a counterfactual. We don't know if the other person would have won. The DSA thing is, I think... [33:01] It's become – it's a little bit like the Platinum thing where it's become a – [33:06] proxy for something else where it's it's the easiest boogeyman for some of the center groups to say to fight something else or something broader because democrats are becoming more liberal [33:17] That is true on almost every issue.

It is true that the number of Democrats who describe themselves as very liberal has gone up significantly since Trump was elected. [33:26] The number how Democrats feel about a whole bunch of issues, particularly Israel, which we'll get to has changed dramatically. And so but that's not. [33:36] So like that, that has contributed to the rise of DSA, but it's not because of the rise of DSA. I also struggle a lot with like, what is the who is the target for that argument that like DSA candidates shouldn't win these races? Like, I'm a New York City voter.

You're telling me that I should pick my mayor based on who might vote. [33:52] cause tarnish to the Democratic Party brand as a mythical voter in Wisconsin? [33:56] What an insane thing to suppose or to suggest. I really I struggle with this because it assumes much like the left assumes that there is some secret cabal in charge who can control how elections are run or control what candidates say. [34:11] if anybody was in charge, do you think this is how it would go? Yes, yes, yes. [34:16] It is voters making their voices heard on who they want to represent them.

And we should be grateful that they are participating and that there are candidates that get them excited to show up. [34:24] We should learn from that. [34:26] the [34:27] I... [34:27] the [34:28] There are exceptions. I am someone who generally believes, like I am... [34:32] I've gotten more progressive in my personal views as I've gotten older. I've also lived in California now, so maybe those two things are related. Sure. But I still – I grew up working on races in red states and red districts. That's my background. So I'm very – [34:46] It's cognizant that you need people who meet the district and that you're going to need candidates who are often to the right of the median Democrat nationally to win in some of this, especially we want to expand the Senate map.

We want to get back to a place where we can win Ohio, Iowa, the Dakotas, you know, places in the South. We have to do that. [35:04] But I think – and I think more Democrats should generally be aware of the challenges, like just how – [35:11] you know, how the Republican bias in the Senate map, the Republican bias in the electoral college and the reality of winning these districts. And you can't, [35:18] What exists in your bubble is not what exists out there in a lot of places we have to win.

[35:24] Having said that, I think one of the great – [35:28] mistakes of the people making that argument is that they never offer. It's always to tear down. [35:38] a it's we're anti-dsa we're anti-zoron like zoron getting elected was good like this is the third way argument during getting elected to be like the end of the world especially when the other option was cuomo cuomo just i would i would just say there's a great irony between the most vehemently anti-platinum people being the most vehemently pro cuomo people if this is a point i mean just to like really hammer this home if you were so afraid of dsa there was a multitude of other options in that primary you could have galvanized around even right now and i'm sure we'll talk

[36:08] If you are so afraid of Abdul El-Sayed, there was other options besides Haley Stevens, who they are currently having to spend $53 million to try and get over the finish line. It didn't have to be her. Mallory McMorrow, who you and I both know and supported and like a Run For Something alum, was right there. Now, I'm actually glad that she did not get the establishment support. I think that would have tarnished her campaign further. But putting aside that for a moment. [36:32] you have to put something forward. [36:33] We talk-- I mean, this-- [36:35] It's literally run for something.

You have to have a vision, a solution. You have to talk to the problems that people are experiencing because voters are actually not. [36:43] progressive or conservative or moderate or centrist, they have problems they want solved. And they want politicians who will do that so that they don't have to care anymore. [36:50] The center could pose... [36:52] could propose that. They could put forward candidates who do that. It is so [36:57] telling and frustrating that instead they choose to punch left there. And also they are punching left instead of possibly creating space for Republicans to come in, for other Democrats to come in.

Like they are doing the thing that drives me crazy, which is yelling at the enemy who can hear them as opposed to yelling at the enemy who can solve their problems. [37:19] Pod Save America is brought to you by AG1. Summer is always a perfect time to unwind, to throw your schedule out the window and prioritize adventure. [37:25] With AG1, that doesn't have to mean letting your health fall by the wayside. AG1 is a daily health drink with a multivitam, pre- and probiotics, superfoods, and antioxidants. The easy delivery system means you get high-quality nutritional support every single day, no matter where or when you start your morning.

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Bring AG1 with you. I love it. I had something this morning. Visit com to get a free AG1 travel case with seven free AG1 travel packs in your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. [38:20] supplies last. That's com slash crooked. [38:25] All right, let's go to Michigan, which is the race that has supplanted Maine as the center of the Democratic Party Civil War. [38:35] We haven't talked about it a ton on this show. [38:37] in part because Abdul worked for Crooked, did a podcast for Crooked. John, John, and Tommy have supported his campaign.

I supported Mally McMorrow. It's the one race where he actually... [38:47] had actually supported candidates, well, it just had actually, like, donated money to primary candidates. Like, that's not something that happened with Plattner or anything like that. Just, this is one where... [38:57] They knew Abdul. I know Abdul. I like Abdul. I know Mallory. I think Mallory's great. I wanted to support Mallory. This race is now down. Mallory dropped out a couple weeks ago. It's now down to Haley Stevens, a... [39:12] Moderate establishment-backed Congresswoman and Abdul Saeed, but it's become the center of the Democratic Party civil war.

There is just the amount of attention it's getting, particularly online from the most online Democratic activists and pundits, is huge. [39:28] It is really established. It's everything, right? It's establishment versus outsider. It's Bernie versus... [39:35] establishment, I guess, or Senate leadership. It's [39:40] anti-Israel versus AIPAC, all of the above. Do you have a take on this race? I think it is a preview of the 2028 presidential primary that makes me want to throw my phone into the sea. I know. It's just, I think it's interesting. It's hard. I don't envy Michiganders who have to make this choice, and I really hope that whoever wins this primary can build leadership [40:07] like build some bridges, mend some fences, because I think it's getting people really, really, really angry in a way that...

[40:13] We'll be hard. [40:14] to fix. [40:15] It reminds me a lot of the 2016 presidential memory, where it just feels... [40:21] Very similar, and no matter who wins, they're going to have to work very hard. It's a long road back to you, Debbie. Yes, yes. I... [40:29] I struggle with several things in this race, which is... [40:33] My original beef in Maine was the DSCC endorsing Janet Mills. [40:37] I was kind of interested in Platinum, but my main thing was, let's just let the people at Maine decide. I thought...

[40:44] I've talked about this many times, but I just thought the mills decision was sort of a political mistake. [40:49] I thought the decision to back Haley Stevens over Mallory and Abdul, I thought was also a crazy decision. I thought just, you should stay out of it. [40:58] But – [40:59] where we are now is this has become a lot about a quote unquote electability and the argument of the Stevens people. [41:07] And Stephen's campaign fairly directly is that – [41:10] Abdul cannot win or is at least much less likely to win than Haley Stevens.

[41:16] What's your take on electability in this context? We have no idea. And I think the establishment, quote unquote, has lost all credibility on that argument. They thought Joe Biden could win another term. Like, they don't have the... [41:30] the proof points anymore to make the case that they know what voters want. [41:34] Like, [41:35] Can Haley Stevens win? [41:37] I don't know. It seems like they've had to spend a lot of money to get her through the Democratic primary. If she does eke this out, she's outspending Abdul, what, 10 to 1?

[41:46] it's not even [41:49] And it's 90%, 99% of that money or 97% of that money is from not the Haley-Stevens campaign. They actually went, Haley-Stevens campaign went up with their first ad today as we're recording this. APAC has spent... [42:01] tens of millions of dollars, I think north of $30 million at least, on Haley Stevens' behalf. And then you have some other super PACs. [42:08] The thing that... [42:12] There's many things that anger me about this. And like it's very possible. You can make a case that Haley Stevens as a quote unquote moderate and who will certainly appear more moderate if she wins a primary against Abdul.

Like that is one of the things when you come off looking quite moderate when you win a primary against a progressive because you're positioned in that moderate place. [42:35] Maybe more electable. I don't know that. Like you can make that case. It's it's possible. [42:42] You could make the case that because Abdul is... [42:47] to the left uh you know michigan is the quintessential swing state now trump's won in two of the last three elections [42:52] It's a 50-50 state. We assume it's probably three to four, you know, five, maybe five points to the left this time if the generic ballot looks the way we think it does.

[43:02] Um... [43:03] that, you know, a candidate that for the left, you know, if you look at political science research, is less likely to win like that, like you can make that case too. But as you're, your point is no one knows. The thing that angers me about the [43:14] Abdul... [43:16] electability question is. [43:19] No one is willing to just say what they mean by it. [43:22] It is like... [43:24] Is your argument that he's too far left? [43:27] In what positions is it he's too far left on? Is it his position in Israel?

The polling would suggest that he's right where the American people are. He's right there. Is it Medicare for all? [43:37] Super popular. [43:38] It is popular. Now, [43:40] Medicare for all can become much less popular over time if it's advertised against the right. That could potentially be a vulnerability. But no one wants to say that because the Democratic base very understandably supports Medicare for all. [43:52] Thank you. [43:53] Is it because he campaigned with Hassan Piker? [43:56] Maybe like you want to make that argument like in the data for progress main may poll only 20 percent of Democratic primary voters knew who Hassan Piker was.

But you can you can put it and you can put it in ads. You can put what Hassan said. [44:08] You don't have to know who he is. [44:09] Is it because his name is Abdul El-Sayed? Is that what the reason is? [44:16] That's the subtext of a lot of this, but no one will actually say that. I would say I come at this from a very... [44:22] personal view because that was always the argument. When you say he hasn't been vetted, he hasn't been vetted, he hasn't been vetted. That's what they said about Barack Hussein Obama too, often right after they called him Barack Hussein Obama.

[44:34] I don't know who's more electable. [44:36] I always wish people would just be honest about what they actually think about why he's more electable. Haley Stevens did flip a Republican district in 2018. [44:45] She performed exactly like a generic Democrat in 2024. I think I used the split ticket once. [44:50] wins over replacement rating but i think she's like a point she's a like 0.3 i think that i never but basically the same like it's not a proven winner and like it's to your point is we don't know [45:00] And I don't want to defend Haley Stevens here because I do not think she is the right candidate for this moment in any number of ways.

But I will say a lot of the criticism of her about being... [45:09] unelectable or being a bad candidate is so sexist. 100%. So, so sexist. And we should also say that because this is going to be a challenge, especially as women keep running, which they will. It is very hard. [45:24] in this modern information ecosystem for women to run because you have to be telegenic. You have to speak a certain way. You have to sound a certain way. Where do you perform your authenticity as a woman? Like if she did some of the videos or even if Mallory had done some of the videos that Abdul has done, they would have been mocked endlessly.

It never would have been on the table. [45:42] So... [45:43] She is not the right candidate at this moment, I think, for any number of reasons, but the criticism of her has been deeply sexist. There's this video that's been circulating that has gotten, I think, 10 million views of her, and she's at an organizing rally, and she is – [45:59] in a very emphatic Michigan accent, is talking about how she's going to fight for Michigan. [46:07] And that's become a thing. But my guess is most people see that and have no reaction to it.

[46:14] It's a really online thing. Obviously, I have bias here since I supported Mallory, but Mallory made some of those videos that are not dissimilar to the ones that Abdul's made. And got torn to smithereens. On the internet, for sure. How an actual voter would interpret, I have no idea. [46:35] That's why this one is so... [46:38] complicated and it's and then sitting over top of it is israel and gaza where abdul has been incredibly outspoken has the post aid israel's called a genocide hailey stevens has um you know been a big has been supported by apac she when she won her primary in 2022 she was a she got a ton of funding from apac apac as i said spent all this money in here there is how do you think about [47:08] expanded out to everything else.

When this campaign is all said and done, it seems like 80% of the funding, at least, of her campaign, at least what was on-air funding, TV ads, is going to be paid for by one specific interest group. [47:22] I don't know that I've ever seen it before. I've seen super PACs put a lot of money in races, like in the Iowa primary, Josh Turek got a whole bunch of money from vote vets that, uh, [47:32] Money really seemed to have come from the Senate majority super PAC world. And it's like a mix of different groups.

But here you have one specific group with a specific policy agenda spending this much money on a candidate. Have you ever seen anything like this before? It seems concerning. The only thing that maybe comes close is the way that AI was spending money in the New York congressional races. Yeah, I think it's Alex Boris. Yeah, but even that was like not to the same extent. [48:02] Democratic primary voters, AIPAC has a net negative 46% [48:05] favorability rating. 78% of Michigan Democratic primary voters said they'd be less likely to vote for a Senate candidate backed by AIPAC.

86% they'd be less likely to vote for a candidate who supports continued funding for Israel's war in Gaza. [48:19] This is toxic for them. I think it's telling that most of their ads do not talk about Israel. They do not talk about Israel. Never. Never mention it. [48:26] - Yeah. [48:27] this is a [48:28] both a question of policy, but it's also a question of morals. [48:31] I think we have seen now that the way that candidates engage on what's happening in Gaza has become a moral litmus test. [48:38] of do you have the [48:40] the sense of conscience to call what's happening a genocide and to...

[48:45] want to push policy away from enabling it. [48:48] We just saw the vote earlier this week where House Democrats, a record number of them, including a number of sources. Like, I did not expect Nancy Pelosi to cut off aid in Israel. Nancy Pelosi, Catherine Clark, the whip. Yes. Yeah. [48:59] Things are changing and they are good because that is where voters are. [49:02] Voters see this as a crisis of conscience. [49:05] And they know that they want their leaders to push back. [49:08] I also think that the way that AIPAC is spending in this speaks to the larger, very negative feelings people have about the role of money in politics.

And it has become the ultimate boogeyman for... [49:18] Someone is trying to buy the election and drown out your votes. [49:23] Not great. Back on Michigan for a second. One question I have is, is APAC going to support Haley Stevenson in general? [49:30] Against Mike Rogers. [49:32] Because right now, she has struggled to raise money. You have James Tallarico raising record numbers. You have John Ossoff raising record numbers. Abdul raised, I think, more than $4 million this last quarter. There are Democratic candidates who are raising lots of money. Haley Stevens has struggled to raise money.

[49:50] grassroots money, which really matters because... [49:54] Big dollar Democratic donations are down in this. You have more people willing to give five, 10, 50, 100 bucks and fewer people willing to write $7,000 per couple of maxed out checks. [50:06] And so – [50:08] If you can't raise grassroots money and APAC is not going to... Maybe they will be there, but it's... I just... [50:13] Is she better than Mike Rogers for them? I don't know. I don't know. But that's like, that's a question. And like, obviously, if she's nominated the Senate, [50:20] super PACs, 10 Democratic super PACs can supplement, but that's money is coming out of...

[50:25] Somewhere else. That's money that's not going to Iowa or Alaska or Texas or somewhere else. [50:29] I think it's a really good question. And I also think AIPAC has shown not the smartest of strategies. No, they've elected a lot of anti-Israel Democrats. Yeah. [50:39] And even if you think beyond this, they have not created space for a political home for people who maybe aren't as far left as where DSA is, but also aren't where AIPAC is in a way that they're not thinking beyond the next three months. And I think it is really dangerous for the future of our democracy in many ways because of how much money they're able to spend and how threatening it has become.

The vote of the House, it is. [51:05] Many people may not have been tracking this over the years, but the idea that 100 Democrats would vote – the idea that 10 Democrats would vote against aid to Israel, the idea that Nancy Pelosi and a member of the House leadership would vote against aid to Israel – [51:16] is. [51:17] would have been impossible to imagine. Impossible. You'd maybe get one, a Thomas Massey, and then what the Democratic equivalent of Thomas Massey, or a Rand Paul. Like, the idea that people would do this in mass is impossible to imagine.

[51:27] It does speak, and this is the downside of APEC's [51:32] and the Israeli government's allegiance sort of alliance with Republicans in most cases, is if Democrats take the majority, [51:39] How would a speaker, Hakeem Jeffries, even be able to get like it seems like that's the end of the ballgame? Like, I don't know how he could even bring that bill forward. I do not envy his job. Yes, it does not seem fun. I do think like one of the things that the broader activist movement needs to really think about is like, how do you welcome these newcomers in?